Dumb question about tar.gz files and Debian

[oldgeezer]

Apologies to the smart guys! I have downloaded Thunderbird, which seems only available in the tar.gz format that I normally avoid. When I clicked the file, I got a lovely selection of files and directories, none of which provided that elusive executable, nor a readme file on installing for dumbos like me. I'm sure some folks are sick of hearing questions about this, but please will one kind soul point me at a link or FAQ to help me do the necessary? Long scripts I cannot manage, nor detailed IT-speak relating to console commands.
Thanks a £m/$b,
OG.

[Cuddles]

OldGeezer,

I am not a guru, nor do I confess to any honors of that title, but, as for your question, I think I can help, I hope...

You need to do most of this kind of stuff in a SHELL, or a CLI, or the little icon on the bottom of the screen that looks like a monitor with a shell in front of it...

What it appears to me is, you have a "source" package... In other words, you have to compile the source to create the executable you really want...

First problem, tarballs...

Get into a shell, and at your prompt, do a "cd" to the directory/folder where the tarball is located...


cuddles@Polaris:/gblusr/Installs$ cd KonqPlugIns
cuddles@Polaris:/gblusr/Installs/KonqPlugIns$ ls
11404-wmfthumbnail-0.2.tar.bz2 wmf-thumbnail-plugin-0.2.tar wmfthumbnail.la
readme.txt wmfthumbnail.desktop wmfthumbnail.so
cuddles@Polaris:/gblusr/Installs/KonqPlugIns$

As my example above, I have the "cuddles@Pollaris:" prompt, and what follows that, "/gblusr/Installs/KonqPlugIns$" is the directory/folder I am sitting in... Doing the "ls" command is a directory listing command, showing what files exist in that folder....

Now some fun, getting to the files inside a tarball...

if the file is in the form of -=- do this command
-----------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxxxxx.tar.gz -=- tar xvfz xxxxxxxxxxxx.tar.gz
xxxxxxxxxxxx..tar.bz2 -=- tar xvfj xxxxxxxxxxxx..tar.bz2
xxxxxxxxxxxx..tar -=- tar xvf xxxxxxxxxxxx..tar

So, since your file is a tar.gz file type, you would do the following command:

tar xvfz filename.tar.gz

the above command will create a folder named "filename" in the folder you have the tarball in, and in the "filename" folder, you will find your source...

Do a "cd" to the "filename" folder, and then the magic begins...

You should find a README or a INSTALL file that should be in text readable format, this file will explain in more detail, what you need to do to compile the source, and install it...

Usuall compile/install instructions follow, closely, to this:

$ make

Some installs from source are vastly different, and have more commands that need to be run, hence, why a README or INSTALL file should be included with the source package.

Hope this helps,
Ms. Cuddles

[baldyeti]

Mozilla-thunderbird is available as a debian package. Use your favorite package manager (kpackage, synaptic) if you don't want to use the CLI.

[oldgeezer]

Many thanks to you both. I prefer the all-Debian package solution simply because anything I do at a command prompt is performed as a recipe in total ignorance of its meaning. I am unfamiliar with kpackage, so that seems like a good first step.
OG.
Update: Well kpackage didn't work for me on this. I didn't understand what to do in the 'Settings', amongst other things.
I tried apt-get install mozilla-thunderbird. It stalled on 'getting headers', then suggested doing an apt-get update. This stuck on 'getting headers' at 28%. Not having much joy this morning! More suggestions?

[user unknown]

Mmmmh...
... nor detailed IT-speak ... Thanks a £m/$b

[baldyeti]

More suggestions?
1) Don't do anything: just use mozilla's mail module, which is virtually identical to thunderbird!

2) If you insist on the stand-alone mail client version, you'll need to solve your apt-get issues. I seem to recall somebody complaining recently about one of the servers included in the default knoppix /etc/apt/sources.list not being online all the time. ftp2.debian.de or ftp2.de.debian.org, I think. Replace that with simply ftp, or better yet replace all german mirrors with servers closer to your place, then run "apt-get update" in order to retrieve the latest list of available packages. Then "apt-get -s -t unstable install mozila-thunderbird" will show you whether the package is installable without wanting to upgrade a whole gamut of dependencies. If the output looks reasonable, go ahead and rerun the above command without the "-s" (simulate) flag.

Sorry but Knoppix probably is not one's best bet to benefit from debian's touted seemlees upgrades. That's because it happily mixes stable/unstable and even non-official package pools in order to offer us a bleeding-edge linux demo system. Installing from kanotix or mepis is supposed to result in a purely sid-based system, with smoother upgrade path.

[oldgeezer]

That's exceedingly helpful, B.Y. - thank you. I had no idea it was so fraught. Guess there's still a very long way to go with Linux. There would appear to be two OS requirements: one for professionals in which anything goes, one for users like me, no choices, no networks, no servers, etc!
OG.

[Cuddles]

OldGeezer,

I think you hit the nail, right on the head. Knoppix, and Linux for that matter, is deffinately not Windows. If I was going to compare Linux to anything that is, or was, on the market, as far as an OS is concerned, I would liken Linux to WinNT. Because WinNT is more "user" based, and many know of it as being used for servers.

Linux is noting like Windows, even though they have made the Graphical User Interface, GUI, closely related, and visually comparable to Windows. You have permissions, user profiles, and most of the "power" of Linux is stuck in the CLI, or Command Line Interface. Even though Linux is "rock solid" as far as stability, and for security, you can't beat it, it (Linux) has a very difficult "learning curve". Linux, coming from its "father" UNIX, and Linux being its "son", they have a lot in common -=- cryptic commands. Cryptic if you come from the "world" of Windows.

Some commands of UNIX are ls, for listing files and folders, cat, for concatonating or viewing files, and cp, for coping files and folders. Compare these commands to the DOS/Windows equivalents, and you get: dir, type, and copy, at least cd is still the same in both worlds.

So, to see if we can get you going here, this is what I would do...

Process #1
(a) Get to a CLI screen - Click on the icon at the bottom of the screen that looks like a monitor with a shell in front of it.
(b) Get into, and edit your sources.list file - type: kwrite /etc/apt/sources.list

Process #2
(a) Get into, and edit your sources.list file (using the GUI) - Click on the little house icon at the bottom of the screen. This will open "konqurer" [sp], Click on the "up arrow" icon till you are at the root, or "/", Click on "etc" folder, Click on "apt" folder, and then Click on the "sources.list" file to open it in kwrite

Both processes are the same from here on
(c) move your cursor down the listing, and replace every instance you find of...


...ftp2.de.debian.org...

with the following...


...ftp.de.debian.org...

NOTE: you are only removing the "2" from the above entries...

(d) Click on the icon that looks like a floppy disk, or you can click on File, and select Save, from the menu.
(e) Click on the "X" in the upper right of the screen, or you can click on File, and then select Exit, from the menu.

(f) Get the updated package listings - from a CLI (see "Process #1" above for how to get into this) - type: apt-get update
(g) Get a "simulation", as BaldYeti suggested in his post - again in a CLI - type: apt-get -u -s install [yourpackagename
(h) If it looks good, go for it "for real" - remove the "-s" from the command you used in step "G" above.

One thing you will learn, using the "apt-get" packager, is that you always do a "apt-get update" before you do anything with apt-get. Reasoning? Simple, the apt-get update updates your database files on your system of what is currently available, and all of there dependancies. You always want current data before you do any installing, or searching, its that whole "bleeding edge" kind of thing. Many of the "packages" that can be gotten, can be going through many "version" changes, and thus, doing a apt-get update, ensures that any changes in versions, are reflected in any install or searching that apt-get will be doing.

Hopefully, this helps a little,
Ms. Cuddles

[baldyeti]

Hey OG, don't despair and throw away that baby just yet! Just because there are new packages literally every day does not mean you have to frantically upgrade! I sure don't. Klaus and other live CD's maintainers are doing a wonderful job of periodically giving us a nice snapshot of the state of the art in linux, so just enjoy their creation.

Back to your original question, installing a .tar.gz package can be done under debian, of course. It just bypasses the normal procedures and apt won't have a clue about this particular SW. The .tar.gz extension indicates a "compressed tar archive", with tar being an old trusty unix archiver. It could contain either source code or binary executable. In the first case, you usually need to do "configure; make; make install", but it may fail due to unmet source libraries dependencies. This is exactly what apt handles for you, by just tapping into repositories of compiled binary packages, with automatic dependency management. The second case - and following the default thunderbird link for linux seems to provide that kind of binary - just needs to be unpacked. Generally under the top-level directory you'll find an executable, eg: thunderbird-X.Y.Z/thunderbird.

Now I know it all can seem overwhelming or downright scary at first. Let me then remind you that you can simply use mozilla mail, as I do! If your knoppix is reasonably recent and has mozilla 1.5 or better, it'll have all thunderbird has to offer, eg decent client-side spam filtering and spell checking.

[oldgeezer]

Hold it guys! I am overwhelmed at your generosity of advice. Perhaps I overstated my knowledge and abilities? I consider myself a computer expert (although I prefer messing with the HW). I was working with Autocode for Pegasus forty odd years ago, then FortranIV, then Basic. I do DOS with the proverbial eyes shut. I have two detailed books on Linux from Sybex and Marcel's. For sixty odd years, I've been able to learn fast - very fast - almost anything. I speak six languages, but Linux is an entirely different ballgame. As a former academic, I strongly disapprove of experts talking amongst themselves - their salaries are paid to disseminate knowledge amongst the masses, not enshrine it in cliquish technospeak.
The bottom line is that that there are ten-thousandfold more putative PC users than there ever will be Unix gurus. They deserve a reliable OS - no servers (gurus), no networks (gurus), few choices, and no barriers to installation, etc. Unlike certain other OSes, though, it has to be bullet-proof.
With the terrific support you two folk offer, I am likely to achieve the objective, evetually, for which I am exceedingly grateful. How many neophytes will not?! How much longer will the gurus continue to shoot themselves in the corporate feet when an amazing opportunity to simplify their offerings and thereby rule the world remains wide open?
Non-IT people have been banging away on this theme for several years now, but the message just doesn't get through! Linus T has given the world a masterpiece, Hr Dr Klaus has brilliantly tailored a CDRom version, the Debian team has created a terrific access system - why haven't the miriads of developers not understood where their own next best chance lies? I'd've thought it would've been enlightened self-interest? There's no merit in trying to sell an OS - the payoff is in job-security and consultancy!
Again, many thanks, Cd and BY; constantly amazed by the helpfullness of contributors in this Forum.
OG.

[Cuddles]

OldGeezer,

I understand your frustration, I went through it myself, only, hmm, about six months ago, and have been (trying) to learn everyday...

I came from a background of DOS, version 1.12 to current, through Win3.x, then Win95, and finally, to a guru status of Win98. I've programmed in Cobol, Fortan, and Basic - on mainframes, and have programmed in Basic, QBasic, PDS Basic, and Visual Basic, using VB in Win3.x, Win95, and Win98. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing in the world of Linux, its all garbage, its like comparing a PC to a MAC, or apples to oranges, completely different. About the only thing that is close, is DOS and Linux's Command Line Interface - but the "CLI" has way more power.

Some of the CLI programs have a close relation to a Graphical User Interface, but many still need to be done in the Command Line Interface, its the nature of the beast.

As for "Everyone in Linux has to be Guru's", no way, I am NOT a guru in Linux, I just learn as I go, and many times, fail at the attempt. Such is life. You just go, day by day, learning something new, and hopefully, growing from it.

Don't know where we go from here? You have two issues, from your initial post: (1) your sources.list needs to be changed, so it can get packages from places that exist in the outside world - the sources.list is simply a file, that contains entries that tell where apt-get can find packages to get, install, or search, for you. The file is a simple text based file, easily editted by any text editor, like kwrite. And, lastly, (2) you wanted to install a package, which, can be done through apt-get, easily as well, as long as the sources.list is current, and is pointing to locations that your package may exist.

You need (1) to get to (2), thus number 1 needs to be changed, so that number 2 can work, thus, the outcome is that you get what you want. I might add, changing the sources.list is not that hard, and in most cases, once it is changed, may not need to be changed for quite some time.

As for helping, I am always helpful, I was "born" that way, I was not "born" with any of this knowledge, I was never born with any Windows knowledge, and I don't have a Guru "on call" to help me out.... I just learn, everyday, and Linux has been a definate learning thing...

Ms. Cuddles

[oldgeezer]

At last! There is progress. The problem was knowing which file to edit, then mc refused to load sources.list. Kwrite did it, though and now after a successful update, my daily time allocation on DUN is about to run out! Tomorrow, tomorrow! I agree with all you say, Cd, but it shouldn't be that I have to rely on others just to do simple things. I was using CP/M twenty years ago when most folks were still asking 'What's it for?'.
Whatever, you'll still be tucked up when I struggle on the morrow.
Very many thanks,
Og.

[Cuddles]

O M G :!:

CP/M - been there, done that, on a TRS-80 Mdl III actually, with five out-board floppy drives; one single-sided 180K, a double-sided 360K, a single-sided quad, a double-sided quad, and lastly, get this, a single-sided 8" floppy - gesh. And I wrote programs using CP/M Basic, for a company that manufactured floppy disks, 8", 5 1/4", and they were just starting to make the 3 1/2" ones. The programs I was developing for them were to test for degrated material, or stress-testing the media surfaces of the disks. Small world :!:

Can you imagine, getting Windows XP on 8" floppy media, shesh, or the old 300MB drums/platters? We sure have come a long way, since then !

Well, now I KNOW where you got the nic of "old geezer", should have made it "OldComputerGeezer" to be honest... [j/k and giggle]

Ms. Cuddles

[oldgeezer]

'Fraid not, Cd. I have never had any formal IT or even electronics tuition; it's always been the hobby side of my work as a user of these things. But I did use proprietary 10" floppies on an electron microscope on one occasion! And, yes, I remember well the introduction of core memory and drum storage around the time of the Ferranti 1902/4. Don't forget that Colussus was the very first computer and that the Brits were already producing machines for the military (Elliot Automation, ICL, Plessey, etc) whilst IBM was still playing with golfballs. Our computer industry was already failing (from the usual British disease of underinvestment) before Jobs was born. There's probably still some debris from that era in my attic along with a few 3" (yes, three) disc drives.
There will now be a short intermission whilst I switch machines and struggle onwards with apt-getting.
OG

[unamiccia]

All of the above is useful, but . . .

I'm pretty sure the original problem (install thunderbird) can be accomplished by doing the following at the command prompt:

apt-get update

(This updates the list of available packages)

apt-get install mozilla-thunderbird

(This installs thunderbird)

The "getting headers" snafus were probably some little Internet thunderstorm or another -- either a debian ftp site was down or the original poster had a buggy connection that time with his/her ISP. I would advise trying again with the two commands above before trying anything more elaborate (unless you're in it for the learning!).

[oldgeezer]

It was the second German server that caused the problem (ftp2.de). Once I edited that to their primary unit as suggested by Cd, everthing worked OK.
OG.

[Cuddles]

OldGeezer,

I believe in giving credit, where credit is due...

The fact is, I got that info in reading another topic/thread, along the same topic of apt-get, in which Stephen had done background/research, and had suggested this change in that thread.

It really pays to read a lot of topics, sometimes you can get lots of information that way. Some of it doesn't "pan out", and sometimes, it does. Stephen has helped a lot of people here, and has done lots of research behind many of the problems people are having. ( I think his success ratio is higher than any booky agent would ever want to give odds on )

But, as you will find, OldGeezer, we all work together, to get solutions, some of us grasp at straws as ideas, and others, have had "real life" issues that have been resolved, and can "speak" from experience. I am kinda in-between on these.

Glad you got your sources.list up and happy, that can only help now and in the future...
Ms. Cuddles

[oldgeezer]

That's most generous of you, Cd - far too much plagerism about these days. Stephen and aay, amongst others, have indeed been most helpful to me on previous occasions. Maybe I'll write to Tony and have him reserve honourary gongs for them........
OG.

[oldgeezer]

Hold it, guys! There's a new problem. apt-get got me Thunderbird v0.5, but my tarball and 'doze are 0.6. I still cannot find an executable generated when clicking the tar.gz file, although almost all the others seem to have been generated. Is it possible to update a) from these tar.gz generated files, b) by apt-get upgrade mozilla-thunderbird? All this could've been avoided if, like Opera, Mozilla put a Debian downloadable on their site.
OG.

[oldgeezer]

Update: The Mozilla website excludes updating Thunderbird by overwriting the previous version. So there's an extra problem - how to remove the old version without losing data and damaging all the links?!
OG.