ok, it's on my hd, I have app-get troubles. a better way?

[cameik]

I'm all for the live-distro of linux also being the way it installs to the harddrive. The fact that someone can see Linux run from a cd, then say, hmmm maybe it would even run better (which it will) from the harddrive, and just click to install, no looking for instructions or anything, I think that could aid the spread of linux more than just about anything. It almost gets linux on to people's computers accidentally. I think that there are many existing apps that, for a new user, simplify the install process hugely over a regular install, and creating an interface to install in the x-window environment should be easier, with better results, than a regular-type install. Just one thing, make it work, and then to make it work better, and make it updateable far into the future. (a windows 98 copy still goes on the same as it always did, but then when you put in all those updates and add-ons, it becomes something more, Linux needs to learn from that lesson to become more widely used.) I've used a knoppix-variant called Overclockix, that had a simple desktop icon to initiate 'install to harddrive' which was very impressive. (The result was full of eye-candy, but the distro itself needed a little polishing) The actual install wasn't bad at all, and was easily accessible. One more thing though... That lilo... ugh! if you are going to commandeer the boot-up of the computer, best to make it look nicer!

Now, I've just installed a sparkly new knoppix 3.4 to my harddrive. I've hooked up the internet, played with a few of the installed apps, but now I'm looking for how to install new programs. ( I really like Firefox) I've found the command app-get listed as how you do this, and tried, first the command app-get update. What I'm finding is that the default address that app-get points to seems to not be connecting. I copied the url into my browser, and that didn't call up ftp web page like I would have expected it to... My main question is, how come? If you can't update it, it can't be pointed to the correct addresses without a lengthy setup procedure, which, being new in linux is difficult. I really believe you just lost about 95% of your audience! Most people I know will quit after encountering such a roadblock. No good instructions (that worked) were offered in the apt-get forums. If, between versions of knoppix or whatever linux, you change the url of where the new apps are located, doesn't that alienate users of the 'old ' system? I tried a newer knoppix install which went cloop cloop cloop into kernal panic. no luck there :? Have these troubles been fixed yet?

:idea: I'm thinking of a central, managed control webpage, one that could be ammended when changes occur, and guide internet traffic to sites where the downloads and mirrors and such are offered, especially as new ones become available, and old ones die off. (Instead of requiring thousands upon thousands of users to all make many little adjustments to thier collective installs to keep them working.) It could be small, as it would only be containing links to the actual files, and no actual downloads would be present there.

A simple user interface would help the user in the task of updating, and new software install.

Maybe this could allow for incrementally updating the system to the most recent version. The apt-get program or a new, slightly better version of, would tie in to that page, and any changes would be automatically dictated by the information and links on that page, a sort of central hub of operations. Then, any new version of a linux to come out, would still default to pointing to that original page, just the same as the older version. You could continue to update a distro to as-new, weither you just installed a dusty old last-years version, or the latest. This, I imagine would save a huge load of internet traffic from people who are always downloading the latest iso's (all 700 megs) just to remain current! ( bet these people account for more than half the download traffic right now, not new users who haven't even tried linux yet, the real audience for the live cd! )

Oh, and you could create an updated live cd through this method, having only a few files to download instead of the whole lot!

Though I make these suggestions for the knoppix hd install, I'm open to anyone's suggestions of a version following this strategy if one exists already. These are just a few of my ideas for furthering the Knoppix, and the Linux, cause. I am, unfortunately, not a programmer, so I can't do it myself, all I can do is make these suggestions, and maybe somebody listens, or maybe there's a better way to do it. I'm very happy to have the linux choice :)

Sincerely, Cam

[patelbhavesh]

Answers to some of your questions


One more thing though... That lilo... ugh! if you are going to commandeer the boot-up of the computer, best to make it look nicer! "
You can try grub instead of lilo if you choose too.It is a little fancy then lilo.


What I'm finding is that the default address that app-get points to seems to not be connecting. I copied the url into my browser, and that didn't call up ftp web page like I would have expected it to... My main question is, how come? If you can't update it, it can't be pointed to the correct addresses without a lengthy setup procedure, which, being new in linux is difficult.
I have recently seen this problem that the default location which is http://ftp2.de.debian.org is not working.You can change your /etc/apt/sources.list file and replace all instances from ftp2 to ftp.And everything shouid work fine.


I'm thinking of a central, managed control webpage, one that could be ammended when changes occur, and guide internet traffic to sites where the downloads and mirrors and such are offered, especially as new ones become available, and old ones die off. (Instead of requiring thousands upon thousands of users to all make many little adjustments to thier collective installs to keep them working.) It could be small, as it would only be containing links to the actual files, and no actual downloads would be present there.

The site is already there.It is http://www.debian.org[/ur]
Here is a list of mirrors
[url]http://www.debian.org/mirror/




Maybe this could allow for incrementally updating the system to the most recent version. The apt-get program or a new, slightly better version of, would tie in to that page, and any changes would be automatically dictated by the information and links on that page, a sort of central hub of operations. Then, any new version of a linux to come out, would still default to pointing to that original page, just the same as the older version. You could continue to update a distro to as-new, weither you just installed a dusty old last-years version, or the latest.
After making the changes which I mentioned above to your sources.list file you just need to write two commands
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
and it will upgrade your whole system.An periodically you can run these same commands and you will get all the latest changes without downloading the whole thing.

I think it pretty much covers what you require.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Free Software,Free Speech,Free Society
http://bhavesh.freeshell.org

[cameik]

Thanks for the suggestions. oh, by the way, will knoppix give you a clean debian install? Also, my idea of a central web page setting up the transfers... wouldn't this have solved my trouble before it happened? Why am I manually editting a file to get this to happen? I looked through the forum posts for advice, but could find none, before I wrote my post. They all just told you apt-get update, then upgrade, just like you did, with no good advice on what to do if the apt-get wasn't even working!

Your advice seems to have done the trick, but this is cart before the horse techniques, making all the thousands of users who downloaded the latest knoppix version, all have to all amend thier source list files by hand.


Ammend the key web page, and all computers would follow automatically. Don't have the apt-get system looking for individual ftps, recorded in a completely, individually changable (screw-upable) format, have it contact the central page for any new instructions, kept as up-to date as possible by an administrator. Everyone kept on the same page!

It has to be easier for the new user. It should also be easier for an administrator, not near as many people with troubles. Find a problem, post links to an automatic update to fix it, everybody get fix. Debian comes close, but this room for error still exists, that's all I'm saying. If the ultimate goal is to knock microsoft down a few pegs, this just failed miserably. LInux still only commands less than 5% of the market, and these complexities are a good part of the reason. A good system needs to be developed, then stuck to. To me, it seems that linux has the potential to take over the market, it's just that it pulls too many different directions all at once.

[TimWhite]

There's an application called apt-spy which would have solved your problems.
It re-writes you sources.list based on throughput.

I must admit, I haven't used it (I simply re-wrote my sources.list to use my fav. local mirror quite a while ago), but it's been mentioned on these lists zillions of times.

[mzilikazi]

Thanks for the suggestions. oh, by the way, will knoppix give you a clean debian install? Also, my idea of a central web page setting up the transfers... wouldn't this have solved my trouble before it happened? Why am I manually editting a file to get this to happen? I looked through the forum posts for advice, but could find none, before I wrote my post. They all just told you apt-get update, then upgrade, just like you did, with no good advice on what to do if the apt-get wasn't even working!

Hmmm did you read the apt-get howto at the top of this very forum you posted in? Also, that doesn't mean that apt didn't work it just means that you were unable to connect to that particular mirror.


thousands of users who downloaded the latest knoppix version, all have to all amend thier source list files by hand.

What's so hard about that? It beats the hell out of windows update where you have to continually reboot your pc and then it lies to you and says the patches installed even if they didn't. I just don't see what the big deal is.



Ammend the key web page, and all computers would follow automatically.

Not no but hell no would I ever want anything automatically doing didly squat to my boxes!


Don't have the apt-get system looking for individual ftps, recorded in a completely, individually changable (screw-upable) format, have it contact the central page for any new instructions, kept as up-to date as possible by an administrator. Everyone kept on the same page!

That doesn't sound too realistic to me. There is no way to determine which mirrors are best for anyone other than the individual doing it himself. Also let's not forget that the internet is far from perfect and just because you can connect to a server today doesn't mean that it's going to be available tomorrow. There is no way to plan for this eventuality.


It has to be easier for the new user. It should also be easier for an administrator, not near as many people with troubles. Find a problem, post links to an automatic update to fix it, everybody get fix. Debian comes close, but this room for error still exists, that's all I'm saying. If the ultimate goal is to knock microsoft down a few pegs, this just failed miserably. LInux still only commands less than 5% of the market, and these complexities are a good part of the reason. A good system needs to be developed, then stuck to. To me, it seems that linux has the potential to take over the market, it's just that it pulls too many different directions all at once.

VIVA DIVERSITY!!

Let me ask you this. Do you use automatic updates on your windows box?
In a corporate environment that is a terrible idea. What if the patches are no good? Then you'd have an even bigger mess on your hands than when you started. We already have a monopoly dictating what your OS should look like up in Redmond. Why would you ever suggest we do the same with Linux?

I use M$ at work daily and it is NOT an easy system. Sure perhaps if you're the end user who just clicks things and calls IT to come fix your box when it breaks then maybe it's easy. I'm the one who has to patch all the boxes, I'm the one who curses when windowsupdate is too stupid to find its own files, I'm the one who has to have a Linux router that provides a subnet so we can bring new windows boxes online because the very moment you connect them to the network they are infected with a virus or worm!! How else do you get the patches and anti-virus software on them if not through the network? Funny.......I don't have any of those problems w/ my Linux boxes. You boot em, they stay booted.

From my 400Mhz w/ 128M ram running Debian GNU Linux:

uptime
14:00:31 up 24 days, 22:21, 7 users, load average: 0.05, 0.12, 0.11

I have to shut down the winboxen daily or they slow to a crawl and cease to function. The bottom line is, if you want a better OS then you're going to have to learn a little bit. Were you a windows expert the first time you booted a pc?

[CrashedAgain]

>>Thanks for the suggestions. oh, by the way, will knoppix give you a clean debian install?

?What is a 'clean' Debian install?

>> this is cart before the horse techniques, making all the thousands of users who downloaded the latest knoppix version, all have to all amend thier source list files by hand.

This is a relatively minor problem with Knoppix only. Other versions have the same problem but with different sources. What happens is that the sources.list is going to be the one that the developer was using when the original distro master was put together. No doublt the source was working fine at that time, but if problems develop with the source at a later date, you are going to have the current problem. The developer is not at fault.

Having a central sources list would not really solve the problem, the sources are not constant, they can and will become non-functional or obsolete or be replaced with new ones regularly. And, even if there was a central repostitory, it would probably have ftp2.de on it's list because it was functioning properly recently.

However, it is a very valid criticism of Linux that the learning curve can be very steep. All of the information is out there, but finding it often needs hours of browsing , especially difficult if you don't know what you are looking for. In this case, a help file on 'updating & upgrading your system using apt' with a 'troubleshooting what if it doesn't work' and easy instructions on editing your sources.list would be appropriate but there isn't one. You will find there are MANY things in Linux that are this way.

>> Everyone kept on the same page!

One of the points of pride with Linux is that everyone doesn't have to be on the same page.

>>If the ultimate goal is to knock microsoft down a few pegs, this just failed miserably.

This isn't really a GOAL of Linux. Many users would like to see this happen, but Linux was not conceived as a Microsoft killer, just as an alternative O/S for a specifc use. That it has grown to where it is at now says volumes for it's quality as an O/S.

>>LInux still only commands less than 5% of the market, and these complexities are a good part of the reason. A good system needs to be developed, then stuck to. To me, it seems that linux has the potential to take over the market, it's just that it pulls too many different directions all at once.

There are a lot of reasons Linux hasen't made more growth, but the primary one is not any problems with Linux, it is the marketing power of Microsoft which can get an MS operating system on (almost) every new computer sold and has such a head start it terms of market share that almost all hardware and software is made MS compatible first with any other O/S a distant second.

[cameik]

I just wanted to say thanks for your honest opinions.

Now, some more of mine... So you seem to be part of some kind of exclusive linux users club. My observation is that there seems to be a sign that says: If you are stupid enough not to read and anderstand numerous posts and instructions, and implement them without any error, we don't want you, keep out!

When I follow instructions, open a terminal, type in, to the letter, the right instruction, and it STILL doesn't work, one might excuse me for having a little problem with that!

My real point was, with a better system in place, linux could really give MS a run for its money. There are still many real problems with all the linux systems presently in place. When an install of linux dies, faith in the system dies with it. It has to be easy to get going, to keep it going, and to keep it up to date. Mostly, I see too many directions being pulled at once. Do you really think linux should be pidgeonholed as only useful for certain things, only used by one computer user in one hundred? Only the person who fully comprehends the intricacies of the system can use it, in the full sense of the word... Being able to install and uninstall programs as needed, general system upkeep, that seems to me a big problem with how linux is right now. I've lost count of the times when my linux installs (of various flavours) have magically stopped working, mostly because I've attempted to install a new program, or even because of a new install of the distro!

A linux distribution shouldn't quit working because... Either you just updated it... or, conversely, because you aren't using the MOST up to date version. There are distro's out there, (onebase linux is one of them) where you get left behind with a one month old install. You need to download about 500 megs of a new install disk to keep things working. (unless of course, your name is Steve, a super-villain) This shouldn't be a big issue, but it has, in my experience.

I realise that linux is a work in progress. I also am not suggesting anyone takes away from the flexibility possible in linux, you should be able to customise to your hearts content, just set up a framework so everybody doesn't have to do that. I just make a few suggestions as to how things might progress...

Sincerely, Cam

[CrashedAgain]

I just wanted to say thanks for your honest opinions.

Now, some more of mine... So you seem to be part of some kind of exclusive linux users club. My observation is that there seems to be a sign that says: If you are stupid enough not to read and anderstand numerous posts and instructions, and implement them without any error, we don't want you, keep out!


I'm tempted just to say something sassy like 'Would you like to join our club?" & leave it at that, but that would do no good for anyone. There ARE people who get offended with anything that might be perceived as being critical of their favorite O/S but I'm not one of them. and there are Linux supporters who will respond negatively to anyone who expresses frustration because something doesn't work as it should. I hope I'm not one of them either.



When I follow instructions, open a terminal, type in, to the letter, the right instruction, and it STILL doesn't work, one might excuse me for having a little problem with that!


Yes, this happens. There are sometimes problems that just don't solve. I've been there too. I have a parrallel port card that I cannot get any Linux distro to recognize, even though it is supposed to be Linux compatible. I had a devil of a time trying to upgrade to KDE3.2 when it first came out, even though 'configure, make, make install' was supposed to do it. and there are LOTS of other similar issues. it can be very frustrating.


My real point was, with a better system in place, linux could really give MS a run for its money. There are still many real problems with all the linux systems presently in place. When an install of linux dies, faith in the system dies with it. It has to be easy to get going, to keep it going, and to keep it up to date.

Linux can and probably will give MS a run for it's money but not yet, at least not in the desktop market. There are lots of reasons for this but the big ones are 1) overcoming MS monopoly, which wields a tremendous amount of economic clout. and 2) Linux Desktops (KDE, Gnome & the others) are still in a relatively early stage of development. and 3) Linux has not yet achieved the critical size to get developers to build to it, so there are fewer applications for it. In practical terms, this means Linux would not yet be a good choice for your only O/S, it's just to limiting. For instance, who makes income tax software for Linux? Where do you get kids games such as you can find in any supermarket? When your kids favorite web site 'upgrades' from Flashplayer 6 to Flashplayer 7,, you have an unhappy kid because Flashplayer 7 is not avaiable for Linux-yet.
One question though: When Windows starts to act erratic and finally crashes (taking your data with it, because Windows stubbornly puts it's data one th same partition as the O/S, do you lose faith in Windows as a system? When Windows gets hit by yet another virus because it has no biult in security against viruses, do you lose faith in it as a system?


Mostly, I see too many directions being pulled at once. Do you really think linux should be pidgeonholed as only useful for certain things, only used by one computer user in one hundred? Only the person who fully comprehends the intricacies of the system can use it, in the full sense of the word... Being able to install and uninstall programs as needed, general system upkeep, that seems to me a big problem with how linux is right now. I've lost count of the times when my linux installs (of various flavours) have magically stopped working, mostly because I've attempted to install a new program, or even because of a new install of the distro!

Yes, at the present time a Linux user has to learn a certain amount of technical expertise. and I agree it's not easy. but, Windows isn't easy either. It only seems easy because it's pre-packaged. Most people would have more difficulty doing a windows install WITHOUT pre-packaged 'system' disks than they would doing a Linux install.


A linux distribution shouldn't quit working because... Either you just updated it... or, conversely, because you aren't using the MOST up to date version. There are distro's out there, (onebase linux is one of them) where you get left behind with a one month old install. You need to download about 500 megs of a new install disk to keep things working. (unless of course, your name is Steve, a super-villain) This shouldn't be a big issue, but it has, in my experience.

I realise that linux is a work in progress. I also am not suggesting anyone takes away from the flexibility possible in linux, you should be able to customise to your hearts content, just set up a framework so everybody doesn't have to do that. I just make a few suggestions as to how things might progress...

Sincerely, Cam[/quote]

[mzilikazi]

I just wanted to say thanks for your honest opinions.

Now, some more of mine... So you seem to be part of some kind of exclusive linux users club. My observation is that there seems to be a sign that says: If you are stupid enough not to read and anderstand numerous posts and instructions, and implement them without any error, we don't want you, keep out!

Sorry you feel that way. Funny......I've searched all over the so-called 'M$-knowledge base' as well as the M$ help that is standard in windows and you know....I just can't think of even one time that either of them have ever solved a problem for me. Be glad that there are tools available for you to use in troubleshooting your situation.


When I follow instructions, open a terminal, type in, to the letter, the right instruction, and it STILL doesn't work, one might excuse me for having a little problem with that!

When I click Windows Update and it goes to the site and says "You need all of these updates" and you click "review & install' and Windows Update says "YOU HAVE SELECTED AN UPDATE THAT MUST BE INSTALLED BY ITSELF" you might be confused as to why windows selected all of those updates in the first place not to mention "why do I have to keep rebooting this damned thing?". Then when you DO finally get the updates selected in the proper fashion and Windows Update says "Cannot find file.dll" so you find the file your self and point windows to it and then Windows Update triumphantly exclaims "WIndows Update has found the file..." you might think "well Bill does think he invented an OS too doesn't he...." And when I have the latest greatest AV software known to man and you didn't install any software from the internet and you didn't open any attachments and STILL you get a worm just because you connected to the internet one might have a real problem with that! :evil:


There are still many real problems with all the linux systems presently in place.

What??? That is the mosty ignorantly formed falsehood I've ever heard in my life. You don't even know how to use Linux yet you feel that you can make an all inclusive statement like that? Nothing is absolute.

When an install of linux dies, faith in the system dies with it.
You'd know more about that coming from a windows background. Just remember: A windows user who is too lazy make backups isn't going to be a good Linux user either. ;)

It has to be easy to get going, to keep it going, and to keep it up to date.
I install both Windows and Linux quite often. Without fail I can install Linux faster than M$ Most of my windows installs are in fact re-installs on a box that just doesn't work right anymore. Most Linux installs are for someone who just wants to get away from the nonsense.

Perosnally I hope there is never ever ONE Linux system.