Ver 3.4 observation

[richg]

Hello All

I recently read a suggestion about Knoppix 3.4 which I liked. I donwloaded 3.4 and burned an image. The live cd was the best I have seen so far. I have installed, Lindows, suse, mandrake and a couple of others but have usb and firewire issues.
I was then very dismayed with trying to install to my hd. After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms. Too bad as it seems to be an excellant os. Hopefully this will be improved in the future.
I will stick with Linspire 4.5.499 as I found an easy work around for usb and firewire.

Cheers

Richg

[mzilikazi]

Try Kanotix (http://kanotix.com) for hdd installation. It's based on (almost) pure Debian SID and won't give you the headaches that Knoppix does after an installation. Knoppix was never designed for an hdd install and accordingly does not work too well when used as such.

[richg]

Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard :(

[Cuddles]

Hello All

I recently read a suggestion about Knoppix 3.4 which I liked. I donwloaded 3.4 and burned an image. The live cd was the best I have seen so far. I have installed, Lindows, suse, mandrake and a couple of others but have usb and firewire issues.
I was then very dismayed with trying to install to my hd. After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms. Too bad as it seems to be an excellant os. Hopefully this will be improved in the future.
I will stick with Linspire 4.5.499 as I found an easy work around for usb and firewire.

Cheers

Richg

Not to nit-pick, but, I am quite sure your "easy work around" was actually something like a "techie" issue... Also, Knoppix can be installed to your hard drive, from a very easy to use installer, which was re-vamp'ed extensively, in v3.4 -=- you only need to "play" with the config file if you want "special" changes - like seperate partitions for /home, / ( root ), and the like... And I am quite sure, that if you would have posted your usb and firewire issues with Knoppix here, you would have gotten resolves for them...


Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard

Knoppix has no disclaimer, in which case, you did not miss it, for that reason - Knoppix can, and does, run off the hard drive, and can, and does, run fine off the CD - Hence, this is why Knoppix, v3.2, v3.3, and v3.4 have hard drive install routines in them - why would anyone have a hard drive install program if they didn't expect that some people would actually install them to a hard drive??? As for the "not being a techie", to be in Linux, you might have to be... Sometimes you have to "tinker" with config files, do modprobe's, insert modules, remove modules, and even re-compile your kernel -=- sometimes. Most of the time, you spend down in the CLI ( command line interface ), doing commands that can not be done through a GUI ( graphical user interface ) -=- Linux is no way the same as Windows - and for that matter - Windows is no way as powerfull as Linux.

Linux doesn't make an warranties on usability, nor does Microsoft, but, if you aren't happy with Linux, and want to go another route, at least you didn't spend any money for it :!: Whereas, if you don't like Windows, your stuck with already purchasing it...

Ms. Cuddles

[j.drake]

After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms.

Oh, this is too easy!!

Step 1: Ignore everything you've read about which version to install. Linux is inherently techie, and there is no distro in existence which gets around that. There are distros which are more dumbed down than others, but less useful. Knoppix is the best I've found, by far, but there are times that you have to get into the console, as with any linux distro.

Step 2: Do research on the following topics, using the search box:
-- Persistent home
-- Save configuration
-- Klik
-- "Poor man's" install (now called the "tohd" and "fromhd" cheatcodes)

Be aware that there were some recent changes made in Knoppix, so don't trust information that is more than a few months old on these topics (e.g., the WIKI is outdated on many of these topics)

Step 3: Using the elements of Step 2, do a poor man's install of Knoppix, which will give you almost all of the advantages of a hd install, without the hassles and disadvantages. You simply instert the live CD into a bootable drive and reboot, then enter the applicable cheatcodes at the boot prompt, boot, remove the CD, and enjoy the ride. The only things it can't do easily are those things that you have to be "techie" enough to do in the first place. You will be able to run Knoppix, install programs, save files, and do virtually anything that you could do with a hd install.

Lots of people use this option - it's definitely a viable alternative, and not simply a "make do". Do not take this suggestion as an insult to your Linux abilities - it's not - I fully assume from your comments that you are an experienced Linux user, but be aware that there are lots of other experienced Linux users who utilize this alternative to do what they want without the hassles of a hd install.

jd

[probono]

Hi j.drake, perhaps we should put together a nice fromhd/tohd/grub/persistenthome/klik tutorial with screenshots and very easy to follow step-by-step instructions for newbies... It's certainly not easy to find the information in all the forum posts.

[ICPUG]

Mr Probono and J.Drake

You have hit the nail on the head. Your comments are absolutely right. I am technically proficient in Windows (pre XP) and came to Knoppix with version 3.3 to plan the migration. Being a complete newbie it has been a slow process, but with the help of the odd posting here I have cleared some of the hurdles.

I have a desire to find an easy way to get Windows users, not necessarily technical, into using Knoppix. I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.

I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!

One other slight problem seems to be that the 2.4 kernel seems to work slightly differently than the 2.6 and sometimes the kernel combination with the fromhd and bootfrom cheat codes does not always work. I had this problem with this Windows NT4 machine whereby only kernel 2.6 with bootfrom worked! I'm intrigued to know if this is true with a Windows XP machine as well since it is usually NTFS formatted.

I'm rambling a bit but the idea of step by step instructions that gets (Windows) users set up with Poor Mans Install, able to store their efforts in a persistant home and keep ther settings from one session to the next is an absolute must to get them to convert. I might add that step by step instructions on how to get on the Internet is probably the next step!

Keep up the good work guys and if these step by step instructions appear I think you are going to make a lot of people happy.

[A. Jorge Garcia]

You will be able to run Knoppix, install programs, save files, and do virtually anything that you could do with a hd install.

Wait a minute here! I thought tohd/fromhd was for use as a poor man's install. In other words, just a copy of the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file off the CD which is a ro fs, right?

What's this saving files and installing programs? Is this an rw fs after all? Or are you referring to persistent home when you mention saving files and klik when you mention installing programs?

TIA,
AJG

[mzilikazi]

I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!


Nothing could be easier.

apt-get install grub
grub-install /dev/hda
update-grub
reboot

Now that's assuming you have only 1 hdd and things are kind of simple. None the less GRUB is easy and Debian makes it really easy

Afer you become accustomed to apt-get I guarantee you'll want to puke everytime you have to go find a windows app, make sure it isn't spyware, click 6 or 8 times just to find the damned download and then hope the installer works!

I don't know what all this tohdd and fromhdd stuff is and a begginner type install seems a nightmare. I just use Kanotix to install Linux in a few minutes flat AND have alot of apps (virus & spyware free of course) and it's just done and over with period.

I too am proficient w/ windows (occupational hazzard) but I can install Linux in a very short time with nothing more than 3 floppy disks and no licensing b.s. to deal with. Windows OTOH takes hours to install by the time you get all the patches, antivirus, anti-spyware, and a multitude of reboots. I guess it comes down to what you have the opportunity to learn. I do know this; If everyone in my offfice used only Linux I would be very bored with pc maintainence.

It's impossible to lock down windows so that users cannot install apps so of course they put on all those silly tool bars for IE and ridiculous cursors! Then they cry to me. "Oh my computer keeps doing this weird thing....."

I detest that OS and I detest Redmond for 'dumbing down' the pc. Of course without windows users when would I have fun? For example, I scan for wireless networks in my neighborhood, (the windows users don't even bother to change their ESSID to something other than 'Linksys') find a shared printer and send them a little something. mwahahahah

[CrashedAgain]

I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.



I use lilo. Here is an excerpt from a HowTo I am preparing (for remastering from a HD install). A rough draft of the HowTo is posted under customizing & remastering.


Step 2: Install the 'toHD' system & set up to boot from lilo

To install, just boot Knoppix with the boot code 'knoppix tohd=/dev/hda1' at the boot prompt.

In order to boot the 'toHD' install without requiring a boot disk, a directory /boot containing at least the minimum required files to boot Knoppix must be installed on hda1. Using the HD install on hda5, first create the directory then as root do the following:

For Knoppix 3.3:
The minimum files are vmlinuz and miniroot.gz which can not be directly copied from the CD, they are buried in /boot.img. To extract the files, the boot.img must first be mounted on a loop device then on an intermediate mount point (use the existing directory /mnt/floppy) from which they can be copied to hda1. For simplicity we are just going to copy all the files in the boot.img.

/sbin/losetup /dev/loop0 /mnt/cdrom/KNOPPIX/boot.img
mount /dev/loop0 /mnt/floppy/
cp /mnt/floppy/* /mnt/hda1/boot

Then edit /etc/lilo.conf adding the following:

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/vmlinuz
label="toHDKnoppix"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/miniroot.gz
read-only
(Change "lang=" as appropriate, only include the home=scan & myconfig=scan if you are using 'persistent home')

For Knoppix 3.4

The required files are linux24, linux26, minirt24.gz & minirt26.gz. These are located in the directory /boot/isolinux on the CD and can be directly copied to hda1 from there. The easiest way is to just use konqueror and drag-drop the entire directory '/mnt/cdrom/isolinux' to /mnt/hda1/boot/.

Then add the following to lilo.conf:

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux24
label="Knoppix3.4-24"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt24.gz
read-only

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux26
label="Knoppix3.4-26"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt26.gz
read-only

Don't forget to run lilo to update the settings before exiting.

Now you can reboot into the 'toHD' install, change the settings to your preferences, set up your persistent home and save your configuration settings to hda7. Persistent home doesn't have to be very large as this is a 'temporary' installation but it does make using a lot easier as you don't have to keep replacing your desktop setup etc.


This assumes lilo is already installed as part of the HD install on hda5 which will become the remaster source. This will not be the case when you are just doing a 'toHD' install so you will have to install lilo while running from the CD or from the toHD install. I think you can do this, although I haven't tried. Lilo will have to go on the MBR and will have to include an entry from booting the windows system as well. You will probably have to copy lilo to /home directory to edit it then specify to use that config file.

[j.drake]

Hi j.drake, perhaps we should put together a nice fromhd/tohd/grub/persistenthome/klik tutorial with screenshots and very easy to follow step-by-step instructions for newbies... It's certainly not easy to find the information in all the forum posts.

I had been planning to do a WIKI update, but I got sidetracked, went on a long vacation, came back to a desk full of work, and lots of home maintenance projects. Like you, I am stoked about this, and I absolutely agree with ICPUG that this is the best way for a Windows user to learn and use linux without putting the Windows installation at risk. I have recommended this to a number of people here, whenever I can. Oftentimes I will link to a quick guide I did in a prior post http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53064#53064 (which I would need to polish up before calling it a "guide"). As you could see, I got sidetracked on the issue of using some other bootdevice to get to the image (in my case, a USB stick). I got lots of great suggestions that I never got to try out.

ANYWAY, what I think would be really good would be to simplify this whole concept for newbie Windows users by focusing on using the live CD as the boot device, which they presumably have already, and post it in the WIKI, and possibly as a sticky in the Windows forum. From there, we could link to other posts to give options for refinement (such as USBs, floppies, and other devices to boot, the "bootfrom" cheatcode, and using bootloaders). I think that this is the best option, because there is no editing of scripts, and you don't even have to use the console. The last thing a new Windows migrant needs is to be told about having to use BASH and editing scripts!!! It's real simple - if you successfully burned and booted the live CD, then you already have the skills to do this (with version 3.4). Does that sound like something you'd want to do?


I have a desire to find an easy way to get Windows users, not necessarily technical, into using Knoppix. I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.

The secret is in using the cheatcodes at boot. When you stick the CD in and restart, the initial image pauses, and you can type in the cheatcodes. Once you have copied the image to your hd, and restarted with the "fromhd" cheatcode, you can take the CD completely out and use the drive for whatever purpose you want. You don't have to create a boot disk, because what you need to boot is already on the live CD. I don't see why that wouldn't be ideal - you already have what you need without having to figure out how to make a different boot device. To my thinking, the only downside is that it's harder to fit a CD into your pocket than it is a floppy or a USB stick. IIRC, one of the bugs in version 3.4 that never got addressed was a simple way of making a boot floppy. There is a menu path for making them, but from what I've read, it doesn't work. Hopefully, that will be addressed with the new version.

I guess the other thing we might want to address in targeting Windows immigrants is to make sure they understand about the drive designation syntax. I tried to address that a little bit when I added some stuff to the WIKI for Windows users, but I also found a link to a Debian how-to that explains it very nicely (don't have it with me now, though).



Wait a minute here! I thought tohd/fromhd was for use as a poor man's install. In other words, just a copy of the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file off the CD which is a ro fs, right?

What's this saving files and installing programs? Is this an rw fs after all? Or are you referring to persistent home when you mention saving files and klik when you mention installing programs?

No, you're right, AJ, you have to set up a persistent home (PH) and saved configuration, which is what I was referring to in Step 2 of my earlier post. But once you do that, and use the tohd and fromhd cheatcodes, you can install programs automatically using Klik (or even just saving them to your PH and clicking the script). Once the PH is set up, a user doesn't have to know (or care) about the RW status of the various drives, because Knoppix opens the home. With Version 3.4, setting up a PH and saving your configuration is simply a matter of tracing through the menus (which is no problem for Windows users) - the only issue is teaching them the linux drive naming conventions so they can decide where to store stuff, and how to initially make the location they select writable. From there, all they have to care about is saving to "home".

BTW, I recently downloaded the SuSE live CD. I HATE IT!! :evil: It's SO INCREDIBLY dumbed down and watered down that it would be terribly frustrating for experienced Windows users. There are no drive icons on the desktop, and I could find no way to access the drives. It simply has a predefined "home" directory, that they try to make look like "My Documents" in Windows. I think the assumption is that Novell is gearing SuSE toward enterprise deployment, where everything is locked down, and they are trying their best to lower the possibility that "lowest common denominator" Windows users will feel "threatened" if they are suddenly forced into a Linux environment by their IS folks. To me, that reasoning is DEAD WRONG for Knoppix. The reason being is that if you are sophisticated enough as a computer user to be checking Linux out on your own, then you simply aren't going to be satisfied with an interface that doesn't give you access to what you want on your own computer. Windows immigrants get frustrated enough by console commands and the restrictions of root privileges without having to put up with an emasculated version of linux, IMO.

AJG, It is SO COOL to see you weigh in on this topic. When I first came to this forum, you were among the most helpful people here, and it was you who first recommended the poor man's option to me. Being accustomed to a Windows environment, and having been frustrated by the restrictions of a read-only live CD environment, I assumed that nothing short of a full hd install would give me the functionality I wanted. You tried to persuade me to poor man's, but I wouldn't listen, tried a dual boot option that was beyond my capabilities at the time, hosed my MBR, and was suitably humbled. As you can see, I have finally seen the light. As I've said in numerous other posts, if poor man's with PH is good enough to let probono do what he does, then it's certainly adequate to my needs!!!

jd

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Thanx for the kind words, jd! Glad you've seen the light and now you too can help a ton of people yourself. "Look, Ma, Junior's all growd up!" How does it feel being a Linux Guru?

I find your post ironic, however. Now that you've come to accept the poorman's install, I've become much more comfortable wth the hdinstall, mbr, lilo path. How funny is that?

Good luck with the wiki!

Best Regards,
AJG

[j.drake]

I find your post ironic, however. Now that you've come to accept the poorman's install, I've become much more comfortable wth the hdinstall, mbr, lilo path. How funny is that?

Sounds normal to me. Hd install is the next logical step - if you want to take that step. Of course, most of the people who take that step are people who are ready to leave Windows behind for good. IOW, most aren't all that concerned about dual booting, which is where most of the problems come in, as I see it. I think poor man's is the perfect solution for folks who are both Windows gurus and Linux explorers. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for dual boot, and I don't deny that. I wouldn't rule out the possibility for myself, at some point. But poor man's relieves the frustration of the limitations of a live CD environment. It, IMO, is uniquely suited and ideal for linux immigrants.

BTW, AJ, were you the person who originally conceived the idea and name of poor man's? If so, I think it makes sense to give credit where credit is due. I don't recall seeing anyone post about it before you.

jd

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Hi jd!

Nope, I don't think I was the first to coin the phrase "poor man's dual boot." I think it was from a howto in the doc page on www.knoppix.net predating wikis.

That howto was only about 5 lines long, so I decided to expand upon it. Again, this was before wikis, so the only way I could improve upon the howto was by way of these forums as well you know!

BTW, I wouldn't, even now, do a dual boot except for the fact that I teach at a school where I have to share my lab with WIMxP addicts. I'd much rather leave WIMPdoze in the dust and use a pure linux hdinstall 24x7x52x100!

Just for the record, I never have had occassion to use PH or klik but it sure sounds useful! If I can't use qtparted and knoppix-installer on a PC, then I usually won't use it! BTW, I've hdinstalled 100s of PCs with KNOPPIX, if not 1000s. I've used all releases of KNOPPIX since 2.2beta and I've installed on Pentium I MMXs and up.

Of all those trials, I was unable to do a hdinstall only twice. The first time doesn't count as the hdd was going bad, but I spent hours with cfdisk and qtparted before I figured that out....

The other time was when I recently dug-up an old Gateway PII 266 with 159MB RAM out of my attic I forgot I had. I thought it would be a piece of cake to revitalize it with a KNOPPIX CD (no hdd) and put it on my router at home for the kids (that makes 4 networked PCs in my home office - 2 PII, 1 PIII and 1 PIV). Then I find that the keyboard/mouse port card is fried. So I slap on a USB keyboard and a USB mouse. Note: the keyboard isn't recognized until after boot time - so no cheat codes.

OK, finally I got it booted-up and on the net with keyboard and mouse OK (after tons of insmod errors during the autodetect sequence). Now, the problem is the whole thing goes into sleep mode in 3-4 minutes after booting, and no mater what I do, it won't wake-up without another boot! Its a shame, 'cause I'd slap on a 6GB hdd I have floating around here somewhere if this beast would stay awake long enough to run knoppix-installer!

When its awake, it runs fine. BTW, I'm using a KNOPPIX 3.3 liveCD in there as 3.4 runs dma and this PC needs nodma (3.3 defaults to nodma) - remember, no cheat codes! I'm about ready to dump this PC, what a shame. :(

Best Regards,
AJG

[Dr PC Tunes]

Hi guys ,

Try here ......

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12520

for a well researched method , utilising Linloader instead of GRUB/LILO to avoid potential MBR corruption .

I've found the ORDER of instigating your Pertistent Home and Saveconfig settings is critical to success , but enjoy being able to craft my boot arguments on a floppy ..... and especially seeing , on boot , 'Starting Windows 98' , then flying into Debian ..... I LOVE that !!!!!

Enjoy .

[j.drake]

This is one of several elegant solutions to a problem. Unfortunately, it involves a level of linux sophistication not held by the typical Windows tourist/immigrant. I think it has a lot of possibilities, though.

jd

[j.drake]

probono, I have a draft ready. Check the e-mail address you posted on the klik page.

jd

[ICPUG]

I would like to thank Mzilikazi, Crashed Again, J. Drake and Dr PC Tunes for their help with regard to my earlier posting in this thread.

I have some comments which may help in producing the newbie note.

Mzilikazi suggested using apt-get to install grub. My understanding at present is that to use apt-get one needs to have a full Linux install on the hard drive. Since the purpose of Poor Man’s Install is to avoid this, I cannot really follow up this suggestion at this time.

Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.

J. Drake prefers to use the Live CD as the boot device and says the secret is cheat codes. This certainly works and it is how I operate at the moment. Dr PC Tunes has given some reasons why he prefers to dispose of the Live CD as a boot device. Here are a few more:

To use cheat codes one has to type them in. Since it has to be done every time you boot up this gives plenty of opportunities to make mistakes.

Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. Turn on the PC, get that CD-ROM drive tray open, Live CD in place and tray closed before the memory check is complete or it will boot from the hard drive to Windows! Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!

Windows users are used to turning on the PC and going to get a cup of coffee while it boots up. I exaggerate a bit, but you get my meaning. Using the Live CD as a boot device one has to hang around waiting for the initial image pause and then get typing the cheat codes before the defaults take over. I prefer to let it go without intervention.

The in-built system for making boot floppies worked for me on my Fat32 machine, but it needs 2 floppies with Knoppix 3.4. Thus, you still have to hang around to put the second floppy in. It doesn’t work on NTFS though!

Immediately after I first posted to this thread I caught Dr. PC Tunes ideas elsewhere for using Loadlin. This only works on Fat formatted drives but it looked a good starting point. I thought the procedure was reasonably OK for newbies. I find that provided you can tell them in simple step by step instructions, THAT ARE GOING TO WORK, you can get them do quite complex things.

I tried the procedure last night and I was extremely disappointed to get a Kernel Panic message. I will address that problem on the appropriate thread.

OK, I still have not got my ideal solution but I am learning stuff and I am looking forward to what J. Drake and Probono come up with.

As Windows XP users start to have Service Pack 2 installed on their machines and suddenly find their apps don’t work properly anymore we have to be ready to give them a simple alternative.

Keep at it guys!

[A. Jorge Garcia]

How about running loadlin from the boot floppy?

BTW, I'm not all fingers on any of my PCs, no matter how fast, as I have a BIOS passwd in place. The boot sequence waits for me to supply this passwd before booting the unspeakable OS. So I put my live CD in at that time, then supply the passwd to get the bot sequence started-up again.

Regard,
AJG

[j.drake]

Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. Turn on the PC, get that CD-ROM drive tray open, Live CD in place and tray closed before the memory check is complete or it will boot from the hard drive to Windows! Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!

Not a problem for me on and Athlon XP 2800+. In my experience, people get sick of waiting for the boot and want a new machine, then they get the new machine, and the boot is just as slow. As I elaborate further below, this is purposefully basic.


Windows users are used to turning on the PC and going to get a cup of coffee while it boots up. I exaggerate a bit, but you get my meaning. Using the Live CD as a boot device one has to hang around waiting for the initial image pause and then get typing the cheat codes before the defaults take over. I prefer to let it go without intervention.

I agree. I think probono is is looking into some of that. The experiences I've hade with bootloaders have not been positive, to say the least. We both thought that this link looked promising, http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53357#53357 , but I haven't had time to check out the method.


OK, I still have not got my ideal solution but I am learning stuff and I am looking forward to what J. Drake and Probono come up with.

Hot off the presses. http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/PoorMansInstall . It's on the WIKI. Since so many people complain that they can't find good information for "poor man's", I thoght we should post it under that title - that's how people look for it. REally, it's more comprehensive than a poor man's, as AJG pointed out earlier in the thread. I did back link to the "HdBased" WIKI page also, but to tell you the truth, that page is such an incredible mess that I can hardly make any sense of it myself, and I sure wouldn't expect a newbie to figure out what's outdated and what isn't, what works with what version, and all the "don't do this if you don't know what you're doing" warnings and complicated methods - Ay Caramba!!! No WONDER they can't find anything - It's a MESS!! My #1 priority was to get something up for Windows immigrants, who mistakenly believe that they need to go through a hd install in order to get the functionality they expect. I can't tell you how many times I've read in the last week posts by people which basically say, "I want to know how to do a hd install, but I'm a total newbie to Linux", and well-intentioned people point them to hdinstall articles and talk about editing scripts and apt-get, and the like. Windows people assume that they need a hd install because that's how Windows is. They need to be shown that there's a better option for them.

The how-to is purposefully basic - no editing, no searching, no downloading, no installation of external programs, no typing BASH at a console, no Root, and everything is done from KDE's GUI or the boot prompt using things the newbie already has. Admittedly, there are ways to fancy it up, but that's not the purpose of this. The purposes are simplicity, function, comprehensiveness and reliability. Later, we may incorporate links to fancier or more functional (but more complex) options, possibly including some ideas from Dr PC Tunes or Ruymbeke, as well as others, but we felt we needed to get the basic method out now.

Who knows, maybe more to come. :wink:

jd

[CrashedAgain]

Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.


I too have seen posts about users who have had lilo 'screw up their MBR' although I have never had any problems. Perhaps this is because I have older machines & use Win98 & ME not XP and not NTFS. I don't think lilo is difficult at all, in fact it was one of the first script edits I ever made (at the time I was "proudly using Linux since last Tuesday"). Yes the default is to go on the MBR but you must put some sort of loader on the MBR if you are going to boot direct from the HD. I could write a step by step but part of the problem is that systems may vary & a detailed step by step would be specificy to only one configuration. And it wouldn't help if the potential user is reluctant because of concerns about screwing up the MBR.



Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. ...Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!


Just rememeber you can hit the big red button before the machine boots without screwing anything up.

Excellent summary of what has been said BTW.

[satyre]

Hi all,

Reading this post was a great experience for me as a window user only tired of MS since way back.... :)

I really beleive that it's now possible for a basic Window user with some guts, to switch to UNIX without any problems if of course, it's correctly installed !

The graphic interface and all the programs included with knoppix 3.4 is in my opinion a superb challenger/solution for XP and the future MS B.S. :)

I've HD mounted an old pentium 450, with basically nothing on it with 3.4 and I sure would recommended it to any window HOME USERS and would even install it for them ! ... But looking at these posts and seeing simples question turn-out as incredible big issues and/or B....t-licking, i'm not quite sure that the HOME users could deal with that one way or the other....

You guys should maybe ask yourself this simple question : Why is it so easy now ? Why is it so easy for a french-canadian , why is it so easy for a simple and quite stupid user of windows like me to have the guts to HD install knoppix on a machine without any knowlege ( or poor ) and it seems to work even better than any version on Windows that I know since 3.1 on this computer ? Why is that ?

Unix has become an incredible OS better than anything i've seen and should start to be available to the HOME USERS..... Just look at knoppix 3.4 with the eyes of a HOME USER and you will see that Windows XP can not compare to that.... :)

The reason for this post is, instead of saying:

go/fuck/yourself/you're/an/asshole

I/dont/really/care

Because/I know/everything/

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Unix experts should consider at least the Graphic interface, GNU or wathever you call it.... and be able to explain it in that matter... DOS, MSDOS commands only, would never had generated the computers that we have today, the net and all de B.S that comes with Microsoft.....

I'm on knoppix.net website right now and expeting to find some answers on the Garphic interface of version 3.4.......... Why use Basics commands when everything is there and in image ? :) Makes me remember a time as a kid when pros would prefer to use DOS and call windows..... :) DOS who became MSDOS....

C: GOFUCKYOURSELF.exe was a religion at the time ! LOLLLLLLLLLL

Untill Bill Got DOS for himself thanks to IBM.... Dont do the same thing guys, the HOME USERS are the ROOT of this great invention that is open source and UNIX.....

Sincerely....... :)

[j.drake]

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here. At first, I thought you were ranting and flaming and not making much sense, and then I saw this post (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58276#58276) of yours, where you are apologizing for your English and begging people not to flame you, so I re-read your post.

I think, if I'm understanding you correctly, that you're criticizing the very efforts you are requesting. What I tried to do was to set up an explanation for a poor man's installation option, using the graphical interface exclusively. Prior to what I wrote, instructions on setting up this option were either outdated, or relied upon the text console, or required finding or installing external components. I wanted to simplify the process for people accustomed to Windows, but more importantly, for people who still rely upon Windows.

I'm delighted that you found the installation of Knoppix to your hd to be easy, and that you are glad to be rid of Windows. But that simply isn't the case for some. Many people share computers with family members who exclusively use Windows, or rely on Windows. As such, they can't afford to mess up Windows with a dual boot installation, which is quite often the case.

There are plenty of spots giving instructions on hdinstallation. Now there is an alternative, using, as you requested, the graphical interface. I saw fit to thank people who helped and supported me, and some of them said nice things to me as well. I appreciate that. If you don't like places where linux people tell you to "go f-- yourself", then you should probably be more appreciative of civility of this forum when you find it.

jd

[A. Jorge Garcia]

???

[psterrett]

Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard :(

Translation: (as Eric Cartman) Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[Harry Kuhman]

Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.
I agree LILO has some problems. But I think the bigger set of problems comes from "scripts" that try to install Knoppix (never really intended for installing on a hard drive) and do a less than perfect job of deciding where to put things, with the dsasterous results you mention. Normal Linux installers give you an option to put Lilo on the MBR or on the partition that Linux is on. What I suggest doing is to install Lilo (or Grub) to the Linux partition. Next install Smart Boot Manager or XOSL as a boot manager. This will let you boot your MS OS, Linux, CD's, floppies, and, should you have them, other operatings systems as well.

[CrashedAgain]

richg wrote:


Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard



Translation: (as Eric Cartman) Screw you guys, I'm going home.


From the date of the original post probably richg is long gone.

Recent news:

Kanotix BH-X apparently has a new option 'fromiso' so you can boot into a copy of the iso image on the HD without having to install ANYTHING. I expect this will appear in Knoppix soon.

There were problems with doing a poormans install on XP (because of the Linux/NTFS write issue) which should be overcome with 'fromiso'.

Haven't tried it yet & probably won't, I don't have XP & even if I did I would do a dual boot instead but consider that poormans install, persistent home and klik have all appeared in a little more than a year. New developments do keep coming .

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Isn't there a knoppix fromhd cheat code?

Regards,
AJG

[CrashedAgain]

Isn't there a knoppix fromhd cheat code?

Regards,
AJG

Yes but 'fromhd' is different from 'fromiso'. A fromhd install extacts the files from the iso image on the CD & copies to HD which means you must write to CD even if it's NTFS.
A 'fromiso' install just boots directly into a copy of the iso image on the HD which can be downloaded by NT so no writing from Linux to NTFS is needed.

[Harry Kuhman]

Yes but 'fromhd' is different from 'fromiso'. A fromhd install extacts the files from the iso image on the CD & copies to HD which means you must write to CD even if it's NTFS.
A 'fromiso' install just boots directly into a copy of the iso image on the HD which can be downloaded by NT so no writing from Linux to NTFS is needed.
Actually, it's tohd that writes to HD. fromhd is documented as Boot from previously copied CD-Image.

[CrashedAgain]

Actually, it's tohd that writes to HD. fromhd is documented as Boot from previously copied CD-Image.

Right, I was taking liberties with the to's & from's. but you get the idea how a to/from
hd is different than a to/fromiso.