Do the linux failures quietly fade away?

[nishtya]

I have enjoyed linux. Second time in my long lifetime I ventured into it and I figured I got it right this time. I found knoppix and then kanotix. I had it all. I really really enjoyed myself (after a little lm sensors hump :) . Have been running a few months' old version of Kanotix - BH4. Upgraded everything but the kernel. Then I got itchy. Yeah, same old same old. Figured I would try the newest and greatest BH. 7a. I decided to put it on the spare partition of my linux disk.

Mistake.

I knew it before I did it. I knew grub was going to take over for my much loved (and now known) lilo. I was confident I could handle it. Oh well. That's bad, no more BH4. I cannot access it! The floppies I made for BH4 won't boot it and grub won't touch it with a ten foot pole (yes have added it to menu.lst's until I will scream). My data was backed up. I figured this might happend.

But. What I didn't count on was BH7a being unusable to me. I am a dialerupper. It looks like this revision has gone the way of one of the other live cd distros I tried. I think it was morphix. In live cd I couldn't dialup. Only damn networker options. I hd installed it and found out, gee whiz, only root can use the modem. - users just go suck an egg. I wrote the developers forum, never got a response though I did find something from an inner circler in another forum that dialup is passe' and users are no longer supported in that archane endeavor. But I merrily went on using kanotix and sometimes knoppix....they let user use the modem.

...yes, user is in the dialout group. User is in dip group. User is in just about every dang group but root. But no modem for user, no dialing up, no internet. aaaaaaargh yes, I googled till the cows came home for the last 24 hours on the problem and the only thing I ever come up with is somebody with a snotty rotten response to the dialerupper that the user has to be in the above-mentioned groups. The poster generally says they are and is never heard from again. Probably like me. There was one suggestion in here I googled of In -f/ttys0/dev/modem. No command found. That poster's prob was solved when they hd installed. No such luck for me.

For goodness sake, I cannot be the only person on a dialup in this whole wide world that is using that distro/revision. But I am not coming up with anything. Brick wall.

My windows install here is a neglected mess. It needs tender loving care. No time like the present I guess? My only other option is to reinstall BH4 from scratch. Too painful, I had upgraded everything but the kernel and you try that on a dialup. Not going through it again.

[champagnemojo]

Don't fade away nish. You'll figure this junk out. :D

I don't know of any real suggestions to give you myself...other than to remind you that it doesn't matter what all groups you're in if /dev/modem, or whatever device connects you on dialup, belongs to the root group. And maybe one of the grub experts could help you figure out what's going on there if you post your menu.lst or something. You could also replace grub with lilo.

It's too bad you didn't make an image of your BH4 install...you could be back up quickly. I feel for you though, doing all of this on dial-up. It doesn't sound pleasant. :?

[baldyeti]

Most people don't multiboot with windows. With linux many want to try several flavours of the OS, and upgrade to a new kernel or whatbnot just because it's free.They happily venture into partitioning and installing boot loaders, then blame it on linux when it doesn't automagically support and guess their intented setup. See I can rant too ;-)

If your Kanotix BH4 root filesystem hasn't been touched there's no reason it wouldn't boot anymore. If you need help, post your menu.lst and the output of 'fdisk -l'. Please identify every partition in that list.

[Cuddles]

Nishtya,

First of all, long time no hear, glad to see you are still around, fellow Linux'er :D

Second, I have gone through ( pretty closely ) what you are, I didn't have as much trouble as you had with lm sensors, but did have to deal with a kernel compile from source for my ALSA issue, when Kano's script didn't work, and his suggestion was to gut my system and install Kanotix so I could run his script to get it working - read: sorry, but if Kano's scripts don't work in Knoppix, you need Kanotix for any support... And, lastly, my fellow DIAL-UPer, I have done a lot of this though my rusty phone wiring, and 56K dial-up line connection. I am quite sure that the phone system in Phillips, Wisconsin probably dates back to the first communication between Alexander Bell and his assistant - I think you can still hear that famous quote from Bell to his assistant still in the wires, if you listen closely, in the dial-tone.

All the horrendous apt-get updates, the installs, the downloads, all from a 56K dial-up line... Got to admit one thing though - I have yet to be disconnected with Linux from my ISP, whereas, the "back-up" system I have, that the Significant Other uses, which is running Win98, can't stay connected for more than 10 minutes before it gets kicked off-line by the ISP, or for that matter, requires a reboot every-other-hour, as well...

I guess this is like another "prediction" I had said, in another post: Very soon, CD-ROM's are going to go the way of the Do-Do, and DVD's are going to become the standard - I think we can now add the "prediction" that Dial-Up is going to be the same, shortly. Very soon, 56K is going to go away, just like the old 28K modems did, and the only thing that will be left, will be high-speed connections... T1's, Cable, DSL, or Satalite connections... Or worse, having to create a network server that uses a high-speed internet, even if your network only has one computer in it.

Shall we call this all, "progress" ??????

For some of us, me included, a small town in Wisconsin, is not going to have high-speed internet until we see the "second coming of Jesus", or the cost of living comes down so far that you don't have to be Bill Gates to afford the cost of Phone Company Monopoly that can charge exuberant fees for high-speed - at which, no one in this town can afford on the meager sallary we get paid. ( see, I can't rant as well )

So, Nishtya, are you saying that Kanotix 7a doesn't provide any support for us people who "tread on the low-end of technology" ???? I was thinking on looking into Kanotix, if it can't support my "old" technology, I guess I won't be going to Kanotix then...

Oh well, at least Knoppix v3.4 still provides us "low-end'ers" of internet connectivity, some dial-up access - still, thankfully...

Ms. Cuddles
( ps - I still haven't gotten my i2c working in v3.4 kernel 2.6.6 )

[nishtya]

Thanks all of you as always for your support :D And ecogeek, too for emailing me - didn't get a chance to respond due to a disaster this morning.

Late last night I did get my much beloved and abused BH4 booted with grub. After a myriad of tries I ended up in desperation changing the parameter for number of kernels booted to ALL. And it booted. Not sure if that was it or one of a dozen of things I was trying practically simultaneously.

I then had a go for a few hours at getting to the modem as user. Nada, zip, outofluck. I ch modded here there and everywhere. I googled and browsed forums until late and was so shot ths morning I spilled about a quart container of coffee on my computer table, the bulk of it going into my cherished HEAVY IBM keyboard that they don't make anymore :cry: I broke my rule of never showering with a heavy keyboard (think they rust unlike the rubber dome ones nowadays) and it is drying in the tub right now. Shall see in a few days if it survived.

That was sort of the last straw in this deal. I may continue to look around for a solution to the user=no modem problem. But I can't think of where else to look or ask. I would think Knoppix would be nearly the same but I don't see much recently from people here not being able to get the modem as user. There is a knoppix script (in Kanotix) to link TTYS0 or whatever to dev/modem. I even ran that with no luck.

Hiya Cuddles - Kano's forum is not as large as this although Kano himself often answered questions in the early days and quite quickly. I did get some answers on the problem with bringing up a window when you su something now but the modem prob goes unsolved. I have googled&goggled until I can't keep my eyes open and it just leads me to believe that us dialeruppers are dying out. For goodness sake, does anyone think we WANT to be dialing up? I do not have the extra $50 a month for cable. Period. I don't even have regular cable TV, just broadcast basic it is so expensive! DSL isn't available in my area and like in the backwoods you are too, may never be until the phone company thinks they can turn a good profit. It would be just as expensive if not more so. Most have cable. Cable knows it and it is too expensive. Maybe they are making up on the computer users' backs what they have lost in TV to satellite. Afraid the end is near for dialup... :shock:

[Markus]

Care to tell us what you've tried so far?
How about: chgrp dip /etc/resolv.conf

[Cuddles]

Nishtya,

You are running a hardware modem, aren't you? i.e. external -=- Right? This isn't one of those "WinModems" is it????

As for the symlink from /dev/modem to /dev/ttyS0 -=- that isn't really required - its just nice to have... I can point my KPPP dialer to ttyS0 and test to see if my ( external hardware ) modem connected to serial port #1 is working - its just nice to have the /dev/modem symlink, for those icky programs that "want" to find a modem on the /dev/modem device, thats all. Until I learned to do the symlink "thing" - I ran KPPP for many months just pointing it to ttyS0, and never had a problem....

As for the keyboard, yikes, don't tell me its one of those "click-click-click" keyboards :!: ( I used to have one of those when I lived in an apartment, and did a lot of "night owl" work - sheesh, they made so much noise, I swore that one night someone was going to pound on the wall for me to keep it down. ) -=- Yes, those "mechanical" keyboards are a dieing breed now-a-days, now all you can find is "membrane" keyboards - burned enough of them with the ol' coffee syndrome - one I burned literally - I had a lit cigarette in the ashtray, which was above my keyboard, and walked away from it just a little too long - came back to find it had burned down enough to "flip" out of the ashtray, right onto the keyboard - burned across the keys G, T, and F - me being a VB programmer - you never know how much you use those keys until they get burned.

You might try a hair dryer to speed up the drying time, low heat - and this can only be done with an old mechanical keyboard - even low-heat for a membrane keyboard can melt some of the "tender" stuff in them. If it is one of those old mechanical keyboards, you can always open them and manually dry them - used to work on the old VT100, 120, 220, and 320 keyboards ( from IBM ) - they don't have as much problems with all the little parts as the membrane ones do - worse thing I ever did, was to open a membrane keyboard - never could get all the "little" pieces back into it... Didn't really matter though, it was fried ( yes, another coffee syndrome issue )

BTW: I can't imagine that people honestly think that no one is going to be using a dial-up connection. I am quite sure that some where some one is still using a PC XT computer, some where. I've even seen old PC AT computers around - yes, those computers that run at 8 MHz - true they can't run anything new, but they still can run DOS stuff, and some of the programs these systems are using, are as dated as you can imagine -=- so, not everyone is running State-Of-The-Art machines, cutting-edge, top-of-the-line, stuff...

Oh well, I guess I'm just being nostalgic, and have become one of the "dated" people, just because I am still running a dial-up, oh well...

Ms. Cuddles

[nishtya]

Markus, I am at work and unable to check out the list (drying in the bathroom, also got a coffee bath) of what I ch modd'd so far. For grins and kicks I did copy over my ppp options file from BH4 to BH7a and it did cure the noauth glitch for root under user but no joy for user. Will report back tonight. Your contribution looks familiar, but it gets to be blur after awhile :) If I haven't tried it, you bet I will. Will take me a little while tonight to get spare keyboard and mouse. :cry:

Yes, also drowned my good optical mouse this morning. It was caught in the "moat" between my gel wrist rest and the IBM heavy. I took it apart, still working and am letting it air. I just have to figure out how to put it back together. Had to take it all apart to get at the coffee between the circuit board and the optical lens' plastic plate.

Cuddles: It's a real modem. External serial. Shows up TTYS0 for root. IBM keyboard is black, heavy and fairly clicky - but it is ps2 not din. Were there any buckling spring kbs with ps2 connector? There is definitely a plate in there. I love my heavy IBM. Hope rust isn't snaking its heartless way through its guts grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Baldyeti: I full well expected I was going to have problems booting my old install & don't blame linux at all; don't ask for it to be superintuitive in that regard. I do wish developers and engineers thought about us bottom feeders in the technology pond and I posted specifics on my problems to a general linux help forum. Generally ask for technical help here now because I am running a different distro. I come to the Lounge because the folks here are great moral support as well. It is the first place I think of coming to when I need to rant or a shoulder to cry on :D

[baldyeti]

ths morning I spilled about a quart container of coffee on my computer table, the bulk of it going into my cherished HEAVY IBM keyboard that they don't make anymore :cry:
Ah, ah I am using one of these as well! No windows key, but who needs that? Don't want any other since years. Over 10 years ago when an ex-colleague left the company we were working at (and using said keyboards), he asked them to order one from IBM for him, and we were astonished to discover they charged (I think...) about 300€ for one of these! But they were realy built to last. A few years later I was lucky enough to find some in a second-hand shop and bought 4 of them at once for a mere 30€. Now that you made me think of it, I am rather afraid of rust as well, as the last unused one lies somwhere in the basement...

[champagnemojo]

I've done a similar thing with my laptop. I was drinking milk or some such beverage while i was working on my laptop one night, when suddenly my cat came running towards me at 100mph and knocked some of the milk down onto the laptop. It got into the buttons on the touchpad. I cleaned it as good as I could, but the right-click button wasn't quite right for months after it happened. It seems to work normally now though.

Maybe I should've put my laptop into the bathtub. :P

[nishtya]

HaHa. Don't even speak such things, :lol: Actually you did get really lucky there. Cracked screens and spills into the keyboard are the number one cause of nightmares among laptop techs. I remember when I was on a consulting gig and they were having trouble with the laptops that had had an extra battery in them. Dell sent out their tech guy when ours couldn't find the problem. This guy knew right away the issue in the mobo but what impressed all was about the 200 screws he had to remove to get at it! And then put them back :shock:
has
Oh, mr mouse has survived the reassembly. But doesnt scroll reliably :cry: I gingerly opened my only other neutered mouse to get a gander of this wheel and clicker assembly Sure enough that spring I found did belong to the mouse and I learned there was another! Fate shined on me that I then found it! But I am trying to figure out what is wrong with scrolling. Could be mechanical or could be something to do with the circuit board getting a caffeine hit. I don't want to delve deeper into practice mouse and risk losing it to.

[champagnemojo]

Yes, I got very lucky indeed. I did open it up and clean all I could, but the touchpad part was hard to get to so I just had to do what I could. Sorry to hear about your mouse. I guess mice are getting more and more complicated nowadays. At least mice are cheap nowadays. Amazon has some optical mice that are under $5 after a rebate I think.

[turbine]

Just recently got DSL but here's how I handled my dialup before. Got an old second hand computer from Dell auction and keep win98 installed on it. (don't flame me everyone I don't know how to do this in knoppix yet). The win98 box connects to my modem. I turn on internet connection sharing. The 2 computers that me and my wife do our work on connect to this win98 box via a lan and we have them configured to connect to the internet via the lan also. She's running win98 because of the financial stuff that she does. I run knoppix. Worked great. When I got DSL i merely replaced my dialup modem with the DSL modem and things still work great.

[nishtya]

Hi Turbine. DSL is not available in my area. But am so sick of miserable dialup that I am considering ditching the landline (save 30US bucks a month) upgrade the cell plan (for another 15US bucks a month to cover it all) and then adding cable (I only use broadcast now so I am going to get soaked) and dumping my dialup. Time was dialup wasn't that awful. Now it is all geared to broadband users and I just don't think I can stand it another minute
:roll:

[OErjan]

i remember when i paid ~55€ for a 3button serial mouse. now i can get a 3button optical scrollmouse for less than 12€.
i have fiddles with both microsoft and logotec optical mice (shortened the cables to be more managable together with my laptop...)
the scrooll mut be just so. of it is ever so slightly missaligned it wil become eratical. and the springs likewise (autoclicking, noclicking...).

[Cuddles]

Hi Turbine. DSL is not available in my area. But am so sick of miserable dialup that I am considering ditching the landline (save 30US bucks a month) upgrade the cell plan (for another 15US bucks a month to cover it all) and then adding cable (I only use broadcast now so I am going to get soaked) and dumping my dialup. Time was dialup wasn't that awful. Now it is all geared to broadband users and I just don't think I can stand it another minute
:roll:

I know what you mean, I am quite sure, around here, we can get anything... As long as, ( 1 ) it is through the local (monopoly) phone company, and ( 2 ) you have enough money. I had considered the "lan" idea - with either my Knoppix as the local "host" server, and the "other" computer ( Win98 ) as the "client", or vice-versa... We dropped the "cable" through the phone company, and use Dish now for TV ( we only have local phone through the company, and use a pre-paid card for long distance, cause the whole "monopoly" thing was getting expensive, with ISP added... Local Phone Company had a big stink when we went to Dish, to the point they came out to disconnect the "cable", and ripped out all "cable wire" from pole to almost into the house, wire -=- saying it ALL belonged to them. )

It has come down to "needing" high-speed internet, now-a-days... It is almost "required", considering download needs, video conferancing, chat, etc... you can't get anything fast enough, unless you have it... We may have to just "kiss the local phone companies tush" and pay through the nose, and just get DSL, or cable, through them... But, we have only had "bad luck" with anything they provide... Bad connections, dropped lines, and we fear, since the "significant other" is an EX of a family member who works for the phone company, that our lines are "listened to", or just "made problems" with, because "they" can, or they "just want to", lind of thing... The Government seriously has to come into this "way too small" town, and realize just how much of a monopoly the phone company has here... We can't even get any other ISP here, because the local Phone Company won't give them local access phone lines - so if you want anything, it has to be through them.

Dialup is seriously looking like a dinosaur, and it just seems like some company like EXXON, or SINCLARE just has to come around and collect the crude from it. It seems like only yesterday, when the "big" thing, was going from a 28K modem to the "woo hoo big time" 56K... I guess it was only, enevidable, that "something" would be "bigger" than that... Gez, I am sure if you had one of those old 300 baud modems, you couldn't even "connect" any where any more...

BTW, if anyone wants to "start" a lucrative ISP here in Phillips, WI, I am sure that more than 75% of this town would "pay" for it, let alone, "back" them - but, be prepared for a fight, with lawyers and court fees, cause the phone company isn't going to give in without a "big" fight. Just be sure you have the government with you, and I am sure you could win... I didn't realize just how bad it is to move into a small town, after coming from a larger city - till you do...

Oh well, guess thats life,
Ms. Cuddles

[nishtya]

It's true Oerjan, I think it is like a fancy car that's been in an awful accident, it may look ok and run but it just doesn't handle quite the same. I don't do any gaming of the sort I do/did in windows. If I do boot up windows and want to play I will probably have to get another mouse. The clicker misadjustment wont get me past first level in a lot of my games and the scroll feels "soft" but it least it doesn't smell like eau de coffeeshop like my poor keyboard :x haven't tried that yet, will hook it up to OLD OLD computer and make sure it doesn't go POP

Cuddles, yeah I think I will have to figure a way to work cable into the budget. It is really starting to ruin my "computing enjoyment". The cable company offers a halfprice dealie the first six months. And with the other maneuvering it shouldn't come to more than a few dollars than I am paying now. In six months though, I will be up a creek. No raises for consultants :cry: actually my income keeps going down. I am making a couple of hundred less a month than I did in 2000 and with my salary that is a good chunk. Unlike the hardware, the connectivity costs keep going up :shock

[Cuddles]

Nishtya,

Want to start a ISP company in Phillips, WI. ???? ( could be the "business" opportunity of a life-time :!: You might even be able to retire, with all the money you'd be making :!: )

Seriously, people here, would be lining up to sign up, if they had the "choice" - currently, the only choice people have here, is, to have it, or not, thats it... The "Phone Company" doesn't have any competition, and can do "what they want", charge what they want, drop who they want, etc... Even, mess with people's phone lines / connections, and, what can you do, nothing - they are the "only" ones who have the services. period.

Ms. Cuddles

[OErjan]

just take it apart again and clean.
I have had mine "showered" in coke (a 1.5liter bottle spilling over, mouse in line of gushing...). it worked ok after a few times (more grime seems to emerge with use).
good luck.
btw use deionized water for cleaning (what is used in car bateries) or perhaps the more expensive distilled variant.

[nishtya]

Mr mouse came quite clean. It was only a little coffee managed to get between bottom of circuit board and a plastic ring thing around the optical lens/sensor whateveritis. But only way of getting it out was taking apart and not knowing the whole clicker/scroller assembly would go boing, well, it went boing onto the kitchen floor. I just think I have the springs and that wheel set up a little off. Buttons seem ok, really need to boot into windows to try it all out. Is a good optical gaming mouse or was :(

and Cuddles, little ISPs keep going POOF here. Can't imagine they would fair better in your boonies. I had one local after another (I preferred them to the biggies that try to shove their software down your throat). All went POOF in a few months and I wound up with earthlink. It was a bit of a pain to find the dun settings for them (they too want you to use their software) but I did dig them up. What's hilarious? The local but mega phone company here up until fairly recently didn't have a local access phone number in my area if I had wanted to go with them. I had called them to see if one of earthlink's numbers were local for me and she asked why I didn't go with their dialup service. Told her. She looked it up. And yeah, they didn't have a local number for this decrepid burg.

[nishtya]

Oh, and when I say clicker I mean the scroll wheel down as button. That whole assembly seems to lack the tension it did have and I guess it is possible it isn't releasing properly. If I use it I tend to get freeze ups (in linux anyway)

[OErjan]

hmm. sounds like the spring is mounted wrong. is it a Logitec, MS or?? i could likely get images of interiors for those. and in a few days likely for several other mice.

[nishtya]

Logitech. I have a close relative of mr mouse who I used as a guinea pig to guide me putting this together again but I don't want to take it's scroll assembly apart to delve deeper into it. Afraid I will wind up with two gimpy mice. The older one doesn't have all the bells and whistles or the response time but it seems like the scroll assembly is identical. I am just going to have to open this thing up again and see if every thing is sitting as it should. I think the spring is right way in, if flipped the little hook didn't line up. So tiny and I so blind :cry: you should see me with mobo jumpers and usb header pins :shock:

[OErjan]

heh, you should try watchmaking... interesting if you are methodical and careful.
i will take digital image of my logitex MX500 and put on the net somewhere asap

[nishtya]

Thanks, haven't taken it apart yet. You are brave to disect your mouse, dang that whole springy thingy is a pain. Except for the scroll tension and the scroll wheel as button, everything seems at it should be. I did take a look at the latest generation of neutered mice at Staples. Nothing that looks as nice or as feels as nice as this. Frankly though I haven't been in windows in so long to play my games, maybe it won't matter 8)

[OErjan]

not really. i have been trained as a precision-mecanic/instrumentmaker so small things with tight fits are not unknown to me.i have made steamengines about 40 mm high and such.
or made my own sledgehammer and tongs for smithing... i am a "general metalworker"; smithing, welding, foundrywork, machining (both manual and CNC), electroplating... i have done some in each feild, started smithing when i was about 12Years old, that was 20+ years ago.
EDIT
here are the images (borowed girlfriends fotki addres)
http://public.fotki.com/MonicaL/mus/
/EDIT

[gowator]

Ms cuddles, how close is Phillips to Canada?

Its only US broadcasting regulations holding back the US WiFi broadband so a decent transmitter could be set up in Canada ...
100 Miles line of site is possible and 50 miles fairly easy for Met Wifi.

I guess your small town doesn't fit the consumer model ....


You can also get dload speeds of 2Mbit from Satellite though you need a conventional modem...

It really is becoming true though...
Im looking to change my ISP in europe and at the same time considering a 5MBit line from a 512Kbit ... it seems incredible I find a need for it but...

[Markus]

In Finland this actually works the other way around :)
I ordered my ADLS as 256/256 but 6 months ago my ISP mailed me that they were upping it to 512/512 at no extra cost. Last week I got another email, they're going to up it to 1024/512. Now that's what competition should be about.

[j.drake]

Want to start a ISP company in Phillips, WI. ???? ( could be the "business" opportunity of a life-time :!: You might even be able to retire, with all the money you'd be making :!: )

Seriously, people here, would be lining up to sign up, if they had the "choice" - currently, the only choice people have here, is, to have it, or not, thats it... The "Phone Company" doesn't have any competition, and can do "what they want", charge what they want, drop who they want, etc... Even, mess with people's phone lines / connections, and, what can you do, nothing - they are the "only" ones who have the services.

Well, now you got me started . . . :roll:

It was like that here, too. All you can really hope for is that the base standard will get so cheap that even the grottiest option available to them will be a quantum improvement. It was really hurting economic development here - no business other than the basic small-town storefront would open here, because of the lack of bandwidth. My wife's medical practice was doing billing and processing credit card transactions by dialing up a NetZero account each time - how professional is that? Phone company insisted they couldn't afford upgrades. Out of desparation, necessity, and the desire to spur development, the city installed a loop of 32-strand fiber around the entire city to link its own facilities (needing only one of those 32), and looking to either lease dark fiber to industry or provide full-service broadband to citizens. The phone company caught wind of it and sent their lobbyists to the state capital, shich promptly passed special legislation to prevent our city from "competing" with them for services they chose not to provide.

All this happened about ten years ago. Since then, there are still 31 dark fibers laying dormant in a nice little ring around the whole city. Obviously, the legislators were looking out for the public interest when they decided that citizens and businesses shouldn't have obscenely-fast broadband and VoIP delivered to their homes and businesses, for a small monthly fee added to the water bill, right??? :evil:

Oh, well, at least my wife's office finally got DSL - about a year ago. The phone company claimed they didn't have a DSLAM close enough, and it wasn't economically feasible to install one. Did I happen to mention that my wife's office is a block away from the main switching office of the phone company, in the central business district?

jd

[Cuddles]

OMG that is sad...

I can understand this happening to a "person", or a household, or even a neighborhood, but, sheesh, a whole city ( including the businesses ) -=- that is just plain "egotistical" and "power-hungry" - a.k.a. monopoly...

So, I take it, no one has come in to offer anything "better", unless it is provided by the Phone Company, right? That is how it goes here... Cable, interent, phone, they have the complete gambit here, what they don't control, they refuse to allow someone else to do it. It's not so much they don't want to do it, it's that they won't let anyone else do it either. Hence, they have absolutely no competition, and have the whole town in there pockets - not sure about lawyers, courts, or legislature, but wouldn't doubt it ( knowing them )...

Oh well, dialup is fine, it works, for now, and I don't do ALOT of downloading, I live,
Ms. Cuddles

[OErjan]

guess i am lucky:D
have optic fibre into the house:!:
the fact that we have a few bandwith hogs nearby gives us a great service, ERICSON has som devel here and the university has computer research...
10Mb line possible uppgrade to 100 or more if i want to pay more.
not too expensive either, less than 30€/month :D
sad part is that i have all of 6Gb hdd... i can fill that in a extremly short space of time.

[Markus]

guess i am lucky:D
have optic fibre into the house:!:
Sorry, not a good enough reason to move to sweden :)
Actually they drew fibres across Finland too but as the recession came ~14 years ago they never hooked them up and the cables are now probably forgotten :?

[j.drake]

Yes, America has both the best technology and the cruddiest information infrastructure in the developed world, I think. Amazing to hear about Asian countries with 4X the bandwidth at half the cost.

They must not have a protectionist attitude toward their information utilities. It's amazing to me how gullible we are w/r/t their BS.

jd

[eco2geek]

Careful, JD, you're going to start a political discussion. :wink:

What the heck! It's interesting how you can get dialup from tons of places, but the only companies you can get broadband from here are monopolies -- the cable company and the phone company, which both have assigned territories and no competition.

(As you know, any government planning of that sort of thing would look like socialism, and we just can't have that, can we?)

Seriously, it has its good and bad points. On the bad side, broadband is too expensive, and coverage is still spotty in rural areas (although getting better). On the good side, if you need to yank their chain, you can complain to the government regulators. Plus the companies are more interested in making money than in regulating content.

Can you imagine what would happen if the government (especially this current government) could regulate Internet content?

(Duck. Run.)

[Cuddles]

Can you imagine what would happen if the government (especially this current government) could regulate Internet content?

(Duck. Run.)

OMG, are you kiding? Haven't you noticed that cookie in your internet cookie folder yet? It's called usagov.spy, maybe it is hidden on your computer Eco2Geek...

Seriously, "our" government is not so much interested in what we see, its more on the lines of how we see, and where we see -=- and if they REALLY want to "watch" me, let them have fun trying to keep up, cause I do some "big time" live chat, one of these rooms, has trivial pursuit games, so, if they are that worried about what I say, they may have to go through a ton of data, before they can even see a single sentence. If we want to go "overboard" on this, I am just waiting for us to get the "Thought Police", and a Government Official shows up on my door, just because I "thought" something against them...

If anything, Eco2Geek, the U.S.A. is diverse, for a country. I have been to some, one's where a card-board box, is considered a Luxury Dwelling, and the pay phone two blocks over, is considered Internal Home Phone Wiring for that dwelling... Funny thing is, you can find that in this country, as well... We have the card-board housing, all the way up to, the multi-billion dollar houses - complete with high speed internet in every room -=- including the bathroom...

Go to any town, or city, and go "off the beaten path", that most of the "passer by's", and "traveler's" go, and you can see what I mean. I used to live in Salt Lake City, Utah, and the funny thing is, no one there thought they had any transients, or vagrents. They were there, but no one saw them, unless they looked for them. I used to donate time to the Salvation Army, and served many of these people meals each night, I could see them on the streets, walking around, and everyone else, couldn't. We are a very diverse country. We have the "stinking" poor, and the "stinking" rich, and all the hue's inbetween, you just have to look...

I am waiting for a show to start, except, it won't focus on one of this country's elite, but rather, the other side... "Life Styles of the Poor, and Destitute -=- with your host, Robin Leach" -=- at least this country would be honest, and be showing a growing populous of people that make up a lot more of our country, than the rich and famous. ( I get so sick of that show, its way too Gawdy for me )

Oh well, I will get back to my "hobble", and be sure the "duct tape" is latched, and the paper window shade is drawn...
Ms. Cuddles

[OErjan]

eco2geek what internet? would he permit something as, eeeh, diverse, as that?

[eco2geek]

Cuddles -- one good thing my county's library system has done is make Internet access freely available, using their computers and connection, to anyone with a library card. Everyone from "street people" to well-to-do library patrons use it.

(This has caused a debate about filtering software, of course. I think the consensus they've reached is that, if you're under 18, you either have to use filtering software or get a parent to sign off that you don't have to.)

As far as the "Big Brother is watching you" thing goes -- true story, my big brother is very concerned about his privacy, to the point where he doesn't accept cookies or run scripts. This did not prevent him from getting his Win2K box infected with the Blaster worm -- over a dialup connection! (Moral: if you're going to run Windows, install firewall software like ZoneAlarm before doing anything else!)

The average joe should be much more worried about his computer getting infected than about conspiracy theories.

I'm not particularly worried about the government watching me -- I'm way more concerned about the government passing laws regulating the content of the Internet, the same way they regulate the content of television and radio.

[gowator]

I have comments on both sides...

firstly isnt some US city proposing WiFi for all... (vagrants excepted)

But also it never ceases to amaze me that Americans think or are taught
America has (both) the best technology

Firstly...please this is not a go at America its just amusing to see how people 'assume' a lot and perhaps eductional to challenge some myths.

In fact, its quite funny becuase even we Europeans get caught on the propoganda. for the interested some just for fun questions at the bottom :D

But its amazing to travel and see technology way in advance of what you think in the weirdest places.

Singapore has a very advanced infrastructure ... but even KL has things that astonish let alone korea or Taiwan.
And forget even starting to compare to Japan technology wise! And bandwidth wise... Japan is aiming for 10 GIGABIT to the home by 2010!!

Finland has brought mobile phone technology in general to a point the US could imagine. Its normal to pay for a bus or a drinks dispenser from your phone!

In Europe most mobile traffic is text messaging and I use my portable phone as much for email and surfing the web as actually calling people.

I only know one person without a mobile phone.... last year I knew 2.

In the UK were are now getting SIM cards on our credit and debit cards something france has done for years.
Norway did away with cheque books years ago though I have to say I fail to see whats so clever about it!

America has a giant economy but techology wise has always been behind most of the rest of the developed world. It relies more on brute force or shere numbers to achieve rather than advanced technology.

Where European engines are designed to get power more efficiently the American answer is bigger engines. When designing a airplane they rely on numbers and durability rather than technology. etc.

Dont get me wrong "quantity is a quality to itself" .. but its a mistake to think a product will be more advanced .... when its American. Indeed their is abundant proof that America's 'make it bigger' attitude works better than technology.

In computing terms the CISC chips are a perfect example....
Intel is a product of brute force and weight of numbers yet supremely sucessful. However Japan for instance has just designed a new chip for genetic calculations... see http://news.com.com/Japanese+designers+shoot+for+supercomputer+on+a+ch ip/2100-7337_3-5322558.html


Its a different approach ... and its hard to argue which is most technologically advanced but its worth remembering our ideas of technologically 'advanced' may not always be so accurate as we have been led to believe....

Anyway intersting questions to answer off the top of your head just for fun.... (then check the answers with Mr Google)
Who invented

Radar
Television
Radio

(http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1909/marconi-bio.html)
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blradar.htm

its strange but most americans seem to have been taught these and others were American inventions...?

[j.drake]

But also it never ceases to amaze me that Americans think or are taught America has (both) the best technology

I don't disagree. The raw technology in the US is as good as anywhere. My point was that the DEPLOYMENT of that technology stinks w/r/t information infrastructure, compared to other countries. America has the technology to buy soft drinks from vending machines, just like Europe, but no one has IMPLEMENTED that technology, largely because of poor infrastructure. That was my point.


Where European engines are designed to get power more efficiently the American answer is bigger engines. When designing a airplane they rely on numbers and durability rather than technology. etc.

Agreed as to the autos. Twenty years ago I swore to myself that I would never buy another American car, due to inefficiency, unreliability and poor resale. Problem is, most "European" cars, and many "Japanese" cars are built in the US. My Nissan was built in Tennessee and designed in California. BMWs are built in South Carolina, and some of their designs are American (e.g., X5). Hondas are built in Ohio. Many Volkswagens are built in Mexico. Interestingly, if you look at recent statitstics, European cars are consistently at the bottom of the pile when in comes to reliability. Meanwhile, American cars have improved dramatically, due largely to partnerships with Asian manufacturers. But, there's no point in debating the relative merits of US and European cars, because the Japanese have absolutely spanked both of us on all objective measures.

As to aircraft, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree there. There is no aircraft on Earth less efficient than the Concorde, but this can be forgiven in that it was the first. The American government withdrew public funding for numerous American SST and HST designs and proposals on countless occasions - rightfully so, IMO. It's cool for the rich and famous, but not for the rest of us, and it's not fair to ask the public to fund the development of something that will allow rock stars and millionaires to get across the Atlantic a few hours faster, when the people paying the bills will never be able to afford a ride. As to technology in mainstream commercial airliners, in all fairness, Boeing pioneered a lot of these tech advances that Airbus uses, and Airbus' new double-decker is following a trail blazed by the 747 over 35 years ago. American technology developed carbon fiber composite materials, and many aviation advancements relied on by both Airbus and Boeing came out of the US space program. In all fairness, I don't think you can say that either Europe or the US holds a clear technological advantage in commercial aircraft, and both are very competitive. As to aircraft engines, GE (US) has a longstanding relationship with SNECMA (F), and Rolls Royce (GB) is still highly respected. Now, if you are talking about military aircraft, I'm sorry, but you couldn't possibly be any more dead wrong. While Europe claims amazing advancements with the Tornado, the Harrier, the Mirage, the latest Saab - the newest of those is, what, maybe 25 years old w/r/t the original design? What does Europe have to match the technology of the B-2 stealth bomber, th F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter, the F-22 stealth fighter, the JSF, the Comanche helicopter? "Rely on numbers and durability rather than technology?" Come on, let's get real. Maybe you have us confused with the folks who make the MiG. Seriously, the classic criticism of American military aircraft is that they are TOO complex and expensive, and that you can't afford to buy as many - you're claiming just the opposite. Do you seriously contend that Dassault and MBB have any basis to criticize the technology of Lockheed Martin? Please, they've retired more technologically advanced military aircraft than Europe is currently producing. Anyway, didn't mean to get off on this, but you were the one who raised the point.


Dont get me wrong "quantity is a quality to itself" .. but its a mistake to think a product will be more advanced .... when its American. Indeed their is abundant proof that America's 'make it bigger' attitude works better than technology.

That's not my belief. And with all due respect, I think it's a common prejudice in Europe that Americans have that mentality. We don't. But in the free market, manufacturers commonly make that assumption in an attempt to maximize profits by selling cheap stuff that "looks" better. A number of American auto manufacturers went broke assuming erroneously that Americans will buy size over substance, and now Mercedes owns Chrysler, and the other two barely stay afloat because they invested in European and Asian manufacturers. The one exception - Americans do love trucks and SUVs., and a good number of them are sold by European and Asian manufacturers.


In computing terms the CISC chips are a perfect example....
Intel is a product of brute force and weight of numbers yet supremely sucessful. However Japan for instance has just designed a new chip for genetic calculations... see http://news.com.com/Japanese+designers+shoot+for+supercomputer+on+a+ch ip/2100-7337_3-5322558.html

Its a different approach ... and its hard to argue which is most technologically advanced but its worth remembering our ideas of technologically 'advanced' may not always be so accurate as we have been led to believe....

Design and production are two different things. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the Athlon64FX is the pinnacle of American design - it's just the highest level mass-produced consumer level chip. Not a fair comparison. There are a number of Amreican processor designs that are jjust as impressive as the one you cited.


Anyway intersting questions to answer off the top of your head just for fun.... (then check the answers with Mr Google)
Who invented

Radar
Television
Radio

Its strange but most americans seem to have been taught these and others were American inventions...?

Well, for some, depends on who you ask, and how one defines the invention. But add to your list the automobile (D), the telephone (some dispute Bell's credit), the jet engine (GB), the jet airplane (D). You're right that many Americans erroneously assume that these and others were American. I just want to make sure that you aren't employing a prejudice in assuming this to be true in my case as well. :wink:

Again, I think our beliefs are closer than you assume, and I hope that you aren't assuming a provinciality from my statement that doesn't exist. The point was that our information infrastructure is shamefully bad, despite the fact we have the best technology available (I never claimed by that statement, BTW, that all of this technology was invented in America - only that it was available to us. IOW, we aren't a third-world country dealing with trade restrictions and the like. It would be understandable to have a bad information infrastructure if we didn't have the technology available, but it's just inexcusable that we're in this condition given the technological resources we have available to us.

[eco2geek]

In computing terms the CISC chips are a perfect example....
Intel is a product of brute force and weight of numbers yet supremely sucessful. However Japan for instance has just designed a new chip for genetic calculations...

I'm not going to get involved in this particular debate, except to point out that, as you know, the technology that becomes the most successful in the marketplace is not necessarily the "best" technology (although, of course, "best" is always debatable). Betamax vs. VHS, for example.

It's fairly obvious (to me at least), that the reason the x86 architecture "won" in the marketplace (and Windows, along with it) is that the architecture became easily clonable and essentially "open." Anyone can go into business making and selling x86-compatible motherboards, cases, hard drives, peripherals, etc. This is, at the core, why "Wintel" won out over Apple.

A couple of interesting factoids regarding RISC CPUs: RISC CPUs are nothing new. Wikipedia says the first example of what we'd call a RISC-based computer today was a Cray designed in 1964.

Even more interesting (to me at least), is an article I found buried among a bunch of sales and marketing materials on an Apple reseller CD from 1991. It's an MS Word document entitled "The great RISC/CISC debate," which would indicate that years before Apple switched to PowerPC CPUs (in 1994), they had an internal debate going on about it.

("RISC" = Reduced Instruction Set Computing. "CISC" = Complex Instruction Set Computing. Intel and AMD x86 chips are CISC CPUs. See Wikipedia.com for more info.)

[Cuddles]

I'm not going to get involved in this particular debate, except to point out that, as you know, the technology that becomes the most successful in the marketplace is not necessarily the "best" technology (although, of course, "best" is always debatable). Betamax vs. VHS, for example.

I couldn't agree with you more, as a second example, and one that is "truely" not the "better" of the two who won: Dolby vs. DBX ( used for audio noise elimination )

Most of Dolby, and Dolby "B" noise reduction can be played without having ANY decoder, whereas, if you use DBX, the encoded sound can not be played without "noticable" sound missing, unless you have the DBX decoder. DBX is far more advanced, had more "head room", more expanded dynamic range, and, this is the kicker, absolutely no noise, period. Why did DBX lose the battle with Dolby? Because Dolby "pounded" the market, was a simple, "clonable" chip, and got into the market first. Dolby is like a tricycle, whereas, DBX is the laburdgini [sp].

Not always does the "best" ever win, more often than not, it is either the "worst" or the "less than average" that beats out what is even better than it is...

Not trying to spur a "flame war", just mentioned the facts...
Ms. Cuddles

[gowator]

You're right that many Americans erroneously assume that these and others were American. I just want to make sure that you aren't employing a prejudice in assuming this to be true in my case as well.

Actually I said taught.... :P

but in retrospect thats not accurate either....
It is partly but largely its just the media impression...

Of course i didnt imply you thought that, neither most of you but its presented very seductively....so much so many Europeans think it is so too. (until we arrive and find it is no more or less than home overall)

The big shock is travelling to places where you dont expect to see it and seeing just how advanced they are compared to Europe/America - especially in certain areas ...



The one exception - Americans do love trucks and SUVs., and a good number of them are sold by European and Asian manufacturers.


Yep but you have more space for em than we do!

But seriously the Big 454 V8's go on and on... sure many Japanese engines 1/4 of the size have double the power but they dont tend go and keep going!


There are a number of Amreican processor designs that are jjust as impressive as the one you cited.

Well if they are really still designed in the US!
I did look for the makers of some MPEG decoders but found that although the HQ is in America most of the work is done in East Asia.

However the real difference is the attitude.
America has a lot of buying power and since Marconi has aquired tdchnology etc. (Im not saying all of it but as a general rule most of the scientists at Los Alamos were not American..... certainly not the important ones.

This is not a criticism, the flip side (the montecarlo project aside) is America is supremely sucessful at attracting technology from abroad and fostering it. Could marconi have built up in Italy or the UK ? We'll never know but the pointis America adopted him....and many others since...


anyway....
Again, I think our beliefs are closer than you assume, well it was a silly post to make when I didnt have time to word it properly, it wasnt meant as it came off .....

What I was trying to say is Americans and Europeans tend to think we have the best technology or at least access to it ... but other countries have exactly the same.
With the exception of the very poor countries but places like South Korea not only have access to the same but better due to their proximity to the Japanese market.

There are many tech gadgets in particular that are only available in Japan or have been available there for a long time but not Europe/America.

In the same way Wifi is massive in Australia - compared to Europe/US... but the real difference is the planning...
Japan is looking at the 10GB becuase it will be state sponsored
This would never happen in US/UK....where we cant even run railways...

(I live in France atm where the train system really rocks)

p.s aircraft wise I was more talking civil aircraft. The EFP is a joke with something like a .6 survival ratio against even dated technology like the F15...

'Make it bigger' is pretty much the european idea of the US from burgers to cars and roads.(although in our defense often in response to real statements from Americans like 'aint that quaint') ... but sometimes when I cant find my minature phone or whatever I start wondering how wise super minaturisation is!

[sakiZ]

Is it a NT based version like Windows 2000 or XP?

If so there is a real easy way to do dual boot with a utility called Bootpart. It's what the old Corel Linux used to do dual boot with.

It works with the Boot.ini menu.

I used Bootpart to access Knoppix after I installed it as a dual boot setup on my system. It is so simple to use, it places the command you want into your boot.ini file for you.

sakiZ