I got this friend, see?

[nishtya]

No, really. Ok. Now, after years in windows world in IT where my coworkers only told me linux was crap (and I secretly ran it at home, hehe, with help of you all) I found myself on a temp job in an IT dept where there is, get this, there is like a unix administrator or engineer or some such. OOH somebody that doesn't think linux is crap. Sounds good so far, right?

Well, now it seems this may be worse than the folks that think linux is crap, he thinks debian is. Or darn close to it. When I have my little problems, oops, just nuked X, oops nuked grub his response is I have no business running debian because it is for developers and hackers and I should run something nice and sweet like fedora. Now I know my problems have nothing to do with debian (kanotix here). More my KDE fetishism for the well, what's the latest KDE? Or trying out another distro on spare partition, the installer of which never fails to nuke my grub and refuses to boot my kanotix kernel.

I don't know enough linux to tell him, damnit, debian is wonderful. It is easy to install, it is easy to install stuff to, it is just perfect for an idiot like myself! Or is it? I did just try fedora. oooh not good. For me, anyway. It is like to me all those folks that bitch about apt and dpkg, I think it is dreadfully hard. I haven't managed to get anything installed. And I can't even call it a comfortable thing to just browse the web on. How do you tell somebody you love your distro? Especially when you are an idiot and don't know why? :cry:

Debian has been very good to me. If it wasn't for kanotix, there would be no linux for me :(

[firebyrd10]

Knoppix is the perfect live-cd for me, and Debain sarge is the hd-install for me.

The new debian installer is very easy and straight forward.

[outanet]

as far as I see it, Debian is pure GPL open source Linux distro which is why it is used for Kanotix and Knoppix.
Its funny that you say that Fedora would be ok, as its main aim is as a test bed for RedHat hackers.
Maybe your sysadmin knows less about debian than you do.

[nishtya]

well, four hours to install mozilla mail, that isn't bad is it? Aargh. The nvidia did go well and a kernel update (not in that order) but installing pkgs is so slow and painful (yum). Dependency hell. And there are a lot of things missing. Like lsmod, modprobe, commands I didn't think could be missing. Yeah, they are missing, not in sbin. I am not sure I could get it together in a week let alone an evening the way I do with debian.

I just don't know why he would think I would be better off with FC? He has the wrong impression of debian. It isn't unstable at all considering it is unstable. But I don't understand linuxese enough to tell him it's so.

[shah]

Just give him a copy of knoppix/kanotix. Let this cd amaze him.
:D :D

[nishtya]

Shah, I have, I have! Kanotix. Wish he would it at least try it. Or see my puters running it. Don't know. I like to think the only people that don't love debian have never tried any of the debian-based distros/live CDs.

Most of the distro arguments you read on the net are over my head from a technical standpoint. But I can't help thinking maybe debian must be getting bad press or something. *sigh*

[Cuddles]

Nishtya,

First, was that little "poke" about ppl not liking apt, about me? Considering what I hear about the other methods of gaining apps in Linux, *** I LOVE APT *** ( especially after you learn what NOT to do in using it :) )

As for your "Unix" person, what do "THEY" run? ( and why? ) - What have "THEY" tried, and when? I tried to get "some very old version" of Linux, sometime ago, to work, it wasn't pleasant, and seeing it NOW, is like, WOW this stuff is EXCELLENT, kind of thing. This could be the same thing for this person, they are going off of "outdated" information, and thus, they are coming from unfounded impressions. It may also turn out, this person is a "true blue" UNIX person, and they may be thinking that "Linux" is just a, pardon my language here, a "bastard" son of Unix, and not worthy to even shine the shoes of a Unix install.

This person may have preconceived thoughts of what "Linux" is, and where it is at. This person may also be so "dead set" in there thinking, that, nothing you say could change there mind, so, maybe what Shah suggests, is a good thing... Let them try it, let them see what it is, for themselves... But, dont expect a major "exorcist" reaction from them, they may just come back and say: "it was exactly what I expected, its junk", kind of thing... If the person is so "dead set" in there ways, you may never get anything "positive" from them, and thats fine, it would only serve to justify that, with them, you dont talk politics, religion, AND Linux with them... Sometimes, you just cant win, thats all. ( but you can try )

This also goes the same for those "dead set" "Windows" people, some of them will never "see" what Linux is, or does... They may never even get past the boot: prompt, and assume that THAT is what "Linux" is... I think of it this way, Windows, and ALL of the Linux variants out in the world, are ALL, just more options, more ways of using that big box on your desk, to do what YOU want to do, and how YOU want to do it, thats all, options. ( I know, this is going to turn out to be a "politial speach" again, sorry :( )

I still find people who think that Win95 is better than sliced bread, when more versions exist, and could be better, for THEM, not me, but that is what it is supposed to be about, them. I even have some friends that are "still" running Win3.1, and for them, it works for what they want to do, and how they want to do it. You could take a Knoppix hard drive install computer, fully working perfectly, place it next to there system, and show them everything is just like there own system, but it does it better, or faster, or gives them more options to do what they already do, but, they still wont change, even if you offered to "give" them that working system. As you gain that "age" in life, you realize that people have opinions, they can be stubborn, they can be open, they may "say" they will use something, but, when you arent around, go back to what they are "used" to doing, its kind of human nature, change is bad, stagnity is good, I hit this at work many times, "we always did it 'this' way, why change?", even if "this" way is lame, or outdated, or ineffieciant, its what we have "always" done before, and it works, so "why?" try this "new-fangled" way of doing things?

I am quite sure that these "Expo's" get this same thinking, they give out tons of free software, and people get the chance to try it there, see what it can do, play with it, and when they get home, they either throw the disc away, or shelf-it, never to see the light of day again. Or, they may try it, but, the first sign of problems, it gets trashed, and they go back to what they were using before, only this time, with the new-founded thinking that what they "tried" was junk, or worse, that they should have never thought that what they already have is the "best" they could ever get. ( this may be where your "Unix" friend is coming from? )

I cant imagine a day without Linux, now, but, that wasnt how it always was. Only a short time ago, I thought that "Windows" was the best I could ever get, with all of its pains, and issues, it was along the lines of thinking: "this is what I deserve", or, "I cant get anything better than this"... But, then again, I was "open" to looking, trying, and working with, something new. To spend hours, days, even weeks, to painfully work out the "kinks" in my install, to re-learn a completely different OS, to learn how to do things in it, to get around in it, to get things done, and do what I want to do in it, or with it. ( I still have a way to go, but, I'm getting better )

When I got Knoppix fully functioning, doing those things I did in Windows, and running more stable, with even more stuff that I didnt have in Windows, I felt like I was going to be the Global Spokesperson for Linux, I'd travel around the world, "preaching" to people about the "joys" of Linux, and EVERYONE would follow me into the "Wonderful World of Linux!"... I'd do seminars, and people would come in using Windows, and walk out ready to be "disciples" of Linux, ready to lay down life and limb for Linux. The world would shift on its axis, World peace would be achieved, Wars would be non-existant, walls would come down, and MONUMENTS to ME would be erected in EVERY country!

Then reality kicked in, I am just a single user, of an OS, one that "I" felt was revolutionary, but that others saw as cumbersome, problematic, archaic, foreign, and not even worthy of there time, possibly. I dont "preach" Linux, but, I do support it, and when the opportunity arrises, I talk about it. I dont step outside, or go to malls, and yell my praises, I do it more on a one-to-one, personal nature, sometimes in a "hushed" voice. More like the guy who is trying to do a "drug deal" on the streets, affraid that the Microsoft Police might catch her trying to sabotage the "order" and "law-abiding" citizens into doing something illegal... "Hey, hey you, wanna try Linux?", "shhhhh, not so loud, here take this... dont let anyone see you have it... no, no, I wont take any money from you, now, the first is a sample, you try it, and if you like it, you know where you can find me... the next time, though, its going to cost you... but, this is just a trial...", and adding, finally, "...and if you get caught with that, I dont know you, you dont know me, and I'll swear I never met you, or gave that to you, ok?"

Maybe, I am more like the person who sells "ripped off" watches from there suitcase on the street corner, ever ready to "high tail it" when the "jig" is up? "Wanna see a new OS?", "Here, this is the greatest, good quality, cheap prices...", "Aaaaa, yeah, its a ROLEX, the expensive model, yeah...", "What? It does? Hmmmm, they must have made a typo, cause even though it says its a 'ROBEX', it "really is" a "ROLEX"...", "Maybe I can interest you in this 'other' OS? Yeah, it says 'ROLLEX', but thats why you get it at such a 'cheap' price..."

So, Nishtya, getting back to your Unix friend, I think the two of you are coming from two completely seperate areas, ( debate time ), find a common, see if you can find similarities, find out where they are "coming from", and see if you can find something that is "common" to you both. They may warm to you asking about what they use, or prefer, and then "sneak in" for the kill... Get them to "drop" there shields, and then place something inside, for them to explore -=- they are more apt to trying something new, when they arent feeling like they are being threatened... Getting them to talk about what they like about what they are using, may find ways to introducing subjects that you know are in Kanotix, or Knoppix, and you can "chime in" ...this has that too, but, you do it this way, or you can do it faster with this, kind of thing. Sometimes the best way to get a "convert", is not to bash them on the head with it, but, to do it along the lines of "intelligent" conversations, that being, non-threatening, and in a way, where no one feels like they are on the defensive or offensive. I guess the biggest thing is, dont be mad if they dont see things "your" way, and dont "get it" kind of thing. I am quite sure they are "intelligent", and make there own mind up, for themselves. They probably know what they like, and dislike, what works for them, and what doesnt. If they dont follow your lead, then so be it, let that be :)

[nishtya]

oh no, Cuddles...poke wasn't about you and I don't ever remember you voicing hatred of apt! LOL Upgrading, yes LOL. Me too. If you look out on the general linux help forums, though, a lot of folks get hung up on having "broken" apt when there has been a failed install. They really haven't broken it. You just have to know how to get it to go on with it's apt life :lol: And of course much of the world revolves around rpms (no pun intended)

As to my acquaintance well he runs redhat since that is what he works with. I, like you, am a home user and thought debian based distros (and kanotix in particular) the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't know a lot about the development of debian but I know it has been good to me. Considering right now I think I am getting hacked here in fedora. :shock: Because it is a beta of a commercial distro for linux experts for goodness sake and I don't know what the hell I am doing in it! :?

I just don't think he understands I use linux like well, a windows user uses windows. You use the computer, you aren't interested in reverse engineering the freaking code. It would take me years and years of studying to understand it. I doubt I would get to the proficiency level I am in windows in my well, lifespan! Windows, I not only used it, I ran it...I made a living fixing it. So it is a schizoid kind of deal. In linux I am reduced to just a user. Which is fine. I am comfortable enough with debian and where to find support if I screw up too much :wink:

[Cuddles]

oh no, Cuddles...poke wasn't about you and I don't ever remember you voicing hatred of apt! LOL Upgrading, yes LOL. Me too. If you look out on the general linux help forums, though, a lot of folks get hung up on having "broken" apt when there has been a failed install. They really haven't broken it. You just have to know how to get it to go on with it's apt life :lol: And of course much of the world revolves around rpms (no pun intended)

Ha HA, RPM - revoles [giggle] -=- along those lines of apt being broke, I'm one of those. I get a "funny" message, and I'm right here posting "What do I do????" - I guess I can "walk through it" now, kind of, but, I'm so affraid of messing the whole install up, and having to get what I have done so far, all over again, yeeeesh, now THATS a horror thought...


As to my acquaintance well he runs redhat since that is what he works with. I, like you, am a home user and thought debian based distros (and kanotix in particular) the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't know a lot about the development of debian but I know it has been good to me. Considering right now I think I am getting hacked here in fedora. :shock: Because it is a beta of a commercial distro for linux experts for goodness sake and I don't know what the hell I am doing in it! :?

I just don't think he understands I use linux like well, a windows user uses windows. You use the computer, you aren't interested in reverse engineering the freaking code. It would take me years and years of studying to understand it. I doubt I would get to the proficiency level I am in windows in my well, lifespan! Windows, I not only used it, I ran it...I made a living fixing it. So it is a schizoid kind of deal. In linux I am reduced to just a user. Which is fine. I am comfortable enough with debian and where to find support if I screw up too much :wink:

I do, and did, the same thing - I still get people asking "how do I fix this?" in Windows stuff - I'm slowly starting to displace my memory, and loosing a lot of what I knew in Windows - Ok, you click on the KMenu, go up to settings, and click on Controi Center... OOPS, you click on the "START" menu... Some of the screens and option boxes are getting blurred in my mind now, and I think more with Knoppix interfaces...

As for RedHat, yeeesh... Has to be a sadist, and thus, wants to make you one too - i.e. he has to deal with the horror, why not share it with someone else, kind of thing - sorry, wont go there... Heck, you dont have to be able to "write your own distro in source code, from scratch" to run Linux, I guess that would be kewl, in a very sadistic sort of way, but, you dont HAVE to... Just the same as, I dont have to write my own games, so that I can apt-get them from someone else who already has, why??? To prove that I am worthy to play the game? Naaaa... I think your friend is trying to show off in front of you... "Look what I run", and then see that you cant figure it out, cause he did, kind of thing... You run what you want, let him run what he wants. If all he wants to do is make your install belittled, fine, let him play hell on his own install, and you get what you have to get done, working a lot easier, with what you are running... If he sees that you can do things a little easier than what he has to put up with, he might come looking around the corner, and be a little more interested, if not, so be it...

Take care my friend :)

[nishtya]

thank you, Cuddles. Needed a debian shoulder to cry on. No, don't think he is trying to show off. I think he really believes fedora is stabler. Looking at what I have here, oh my. It probably is for someone who knows what they are doing! This fedora seems to have a mind of its own. It acts almost like a workstation looking for mamaship all the time though the one thing I am sure of is I didn't choose workstation install. Actually, it is acting like a networked windows computer. It even does this "autorun" when it hits the desktop and I can't find where that is coming from. Why it seems so strange to see so many "users". And my missing commands, goshdarnit I wanna see what modules are loaded. I know they must be there. Just like iptables are there...but iptables -L, nopers can't see.

Am I wrong or is redhat the one that it hides how to login in as root and it is some secret society handshake or something in order to do it and you never breath a word of it? It is redhat or mandrake, I remember that. I don't do that. Unless absolutely necessary but I would very much like to find out why it thinks I am three different people LOL this has been different.

So I am hopeless at linux. But I will hang on to debian until it tells me I need a degree to run it
8)

[OErjan]

JOKE
what, cuddles, you do not edit the knoppix ISO bit by bit , each zero checked and double checked each 1...
before you burn it?? how on earth do you get the extra 200Mb of software in? ;-P
and that optimization of memory and cpu usage. the extra 20000 fps on your graphics.
/JOKE
oh my. i have a few of those. one refuses anything but mac, one thinks win95 is THE thing (ouch).

[firebyrd10]

With all that bad rap about apt-get upgrade. With my debain sarge install I do apt-get update && apt-get upgrade as soon as I log in. Sure on or two programs won't be upgraded even if they can be. But it hasn't broken my system yet. I think its just a Sid thing.

[nishtya]

Not even a sid thing, I am sid (wow, sounds like a b movie title). It breaks a few things. I wait 24 hrs to a week and the next one will fix it :)

Have to manage the upgrades like anything else. Right now debian pkg world a little different with sarge so close to stable. And KDE, will always be KDE :P

[Cuddles]

OErjan, just bought the "Simpsons Hit & Run" game ( note the wording here, I "BOUGHT" the game ) - it refuses to run within WINE, considering the game likes DirectX 8.1 for video and audio, I think something is missing from my WINE install... I "had" to boot my Win98 install, to install it, and test run / play it, to be sure it wasnt a "flackey" game... ANYONE know how to get DirectX running in WINE ??????

As for everyone else, I think it is a Sid thing, with everything changing, doing a "blanket" upgrade, can only be a sign of the armegedeon, and, an eternity of pergatory for a Linux user. With all the "dynamic" 'ness of Sid packages, each one going into Sarge at a moment notice, and something new being introduced into Sid, its more of a "witches" kettle, with a mixture of incantations of spells, brews, and strange creatures thrown into the pot. This "mixture" is an accident waiting to happen, and the apt-get upgrade is like one extra "eye of knute" to a perfectly fine witches brew. ( KDE is another example )

I have found a delicate sprinkle of Synaptic and doing upgrades only on the packages I want, to be a nice way of keep the "witches pot" from going into "overdrive" and causing a Linux user to go berzerk... I just live with the "600 packages left back, or not upgraded" message, now. ( considering the outcome, and possible reprecusions, of doing the dreaded "blanket" upgrade with Sid, its a nice consolation prize )

As one gets "used" to running Knoppix, you learn what to do, and what NOT to do, in its normal running, or at least you should, unless ones intent is to have "a life in HELL", or, you learn how to applease "Hell's" gatekeeper if your choice is to do what you probably shouldn't be doing :)

[OErjan]

winex has directx already put in there:-) try that

[nishtya]

very interested in this discussion :idea: the only thing that keeps w98 on here besides some banking is directx. I gotta have my games. Resources?

[Cuddles]

very interested in this discussion :idea: the only thing that keeps w98 on here besides some banking is directx. I gotta have my games. Resources?

This is bout the best I've come up with, appears the "company" that used to develop WineX, no longer wants to "give it away" - they charge, a minimum of $5 USD / month to be a subscriber, which gives you access to the downloads of the "Cedega" program, and a minimum of 3 months must be maintained - so you cant just pay 5 bucks, get the downloads, and run...

I cant locate the area to get the "WineX" program, they locked down everything but the "Cedega_TimeDemo" version download, in fact, the whole site is almost locked down unless you subscribe... I got the TimeDemo version, and it refuses to run my game, screen comes up, but then stays black - Even there "help" forums are locked down unless you are a member / subscriber, so I am going through there "email contact" point to see if I can get this resolved...

Here is the site link (http://www.transgaming.com)

[OErjan]

15$ is not a house so...

[Cuddles]

True, very true, but, as I see it, I would gladly pay that, if I could get the "TimeDemo" to work, and having problems with that, and not wanting to pay for something that doesnt, or wont, work for what I need it to do, is expensive ( the principle of the thing )

Having there "help" for those who "take the gamble" of it working, and putting there money on it, is kind of, not, "Shareware" of an idea - more along the lines of Microsoft, buy it, try it, if you dont like it, then tough, you already bought it, kind of thing...

I'd gladly pay $50 for Cedega, if it would run a simple game, heck, the "Simpsons" game cant be any worse than what they claim they have working, some of these games they "say" run, are a heck of a lot more "intensive" then this, and my justification is, any amount of money is too much, if the thing doesnt work -=- its a waste -=- I can just as easily throw 15 bucks down the toilet and flush it, gets me just the same... The big kicker is, they must assume that "everyone" is going to try the "TimeDemo" version, and it will work perfectly for them, hence, no help for anyone, and then these people will buy the "real" version, thus, have the help... I'm not getting that far, I'm stuck on the "I need help with the TimeDemo", and I aint paying for it, if it cant work... We'll see, maybe the email assistance will change my mind, the program looks good, and it appears to be "flawless" in the "faking" Windows and its drives, peripheralls, and programs into thinking they are not only on a FAT drive, when they are actually on a ext3 file system, but, also able to run the EXE program with this same "faking it" thing...

Oh well

[OErjan]

i have had it installed and it worlked for me. sadly i have no computer that is enough to run that anymore. p1@100Mhz is a bit on the low side, even with 74Mb ram