debian is way ahead

[garyng]

I have the need to try out a fedora core(to install sybase ASE) and have a chance to play with its package management system(both apt and yum), there is no comparison. It is slow, it is fragile(the dependency stuff) and searching for packages is a mess.

No wonder there are so many debian based distro as being a commuity based development, there is an implicit requirement that a debian package must sort out all kinds of weird way it may be installed.

Will try out gentoo soon and see how it scores.

BTW, anyone with a need to dual boot windows/linux should really give colinux a try. It is a perfect VM engine for linux if you must run windows. I have fedora 1, woody, sarge all running at the same time under XP. A great way to test out various flavor of *nix. The limitations are that don't expect games to run and it cannot access any hardware except network and HD.

One of the creative use of it is to have the powerful firewall of linux running under XP, if you don't have a dedicated router/firewall.

[cintra]

Will try out gentoo soon and see how it scores.


And I bet you won't leave it garyng..

..for me, half the fun is with the forum - never had so many laughs
and Portage is a package installers dream!

But, put aside ample time to read the handbook(s) thoroughly.

Enjoy
;-)

Development-sources kernel 2.6.10-rc2
KDE 3.3.1, Nvidia 1.0.6629, Udev-045, etc

[probono]

Doesn't gentoo mean you have to compile most packages yourself? For me, compiling usually means:
- getting errors about unmet -dev dependencies (cryptic)
- downloading tons of -dev packages (no flatrate!)
- waiting for hours
- seeing cryptic messages
Or isn't that the case with gentoo?

[shah]

Agree with probono.
I've tried Gentoo before, and didn't suit me....I guess I don't have enough patience to wait for anything to compile everytime I want to install programs.
It's a good distro if you have enough time on your hands.

:D :D

[champagnemojo]

I've been trying out Yoper the past few days after hearing a few people sing its praises...no real need to, just got bored. :P It's rpm-based, but they have a ported version of apt. It's great as long as all the programs you want are in their repositories (doubtful), but once you want something else you hit dependency problems. I quickly realized that I can't live without dpkg.

I've thought about trying Gentoo too...again, just for the heck of it if I get bored. I don't really see me ever leaving debian-based distros anytime soon. :wink:

[garyng]

I've been trying out Yoper the past few days after hearing a few people sing its praises...no real need to, just got bored. :P It's rpm-based, but they have a ported version of apt. It's great as long as all the programs you want are in their repositories (doubtful), but once you want something else you hit dependency problems. I quickly realized that I can't live without dpkg.

I've thought about trying Gentoo too...again, just for the heck of it if I get bored. I don't really see me ever leaving debian-based distros anytime soon. :wink:

Even if everything is in their repository, the dependency rules obviously is not as well polished as debian. I tried to install it one way and it didn't work. Install it another way, it worked. This never happens to me on debian(may be unstable/testing but not stable branch).

[Markus]

Haven't used gentoo myself but a friend likes it. Last time he installed he spent > 2 days compiling basically the base system.
Here and on kanotix people seem to complain when the install isn't over in 10 minutes flat :)
The main reason why he prefers gentoo is that when you compile everything specifically for your hardware you get a fast system.
I seriously doubt if I'm ever going to stray far from a debian based distro. Well, ever and ever, who knows what we'll use in 10 years.

[firebyrd10]

Right, the binaries are made specialy for your system.

But I don't mind a slightly slower peice of software if I can get it on apt-get.

Of course sometimes you have to compile, good thing is knoppix has alot of the most used and libaries so you can usually compile without any real problems.

[champagnemojo]

Even if everything is in their repository, the dependency rules obviously is not as well polished as debian. I tried to install it one way and it didn't work. Install it another way, it worked. This never happens to me on debian(may be unstable/testing but not stable branch).

Are you talking about Yoper? It won't seem to install grub correctly...which sucks. Otherwise the installer seemed fine. Most of the packages in their repositories install ok...but you're right, there are still issues with a few of them. And without dpkg you can't fix it even if it's just needing to overwrite a file or something.

[garyng]

Even if everything is in their repository, the dependency rules obviously is not as well polished as debian. I tried to install it one way and it didn't work. Install it another way, it worked. This never happens to me on debian(may be unstable/testing but not stable branch).

Are you talking about Yoper? It won't seem to install grub correctly...which sucks. Otherwise the installer seemed fine. Most of the packages in their repositories install ok...but you're right, there are still issues with a few of them. And without dpkg you can't fix it even if it's just needing to overwrite a file or something.

I only have yum and apt-get on fedora 1. In fact, yum seems to be ok, but apt-get(for the rpm) has problems.

[cintra]

Agree with probono.
I've tried Gentoo before, and didn't suit me....I guess I don't have enough patience to wait for anything to compile everytime I want to install programs.
It's a good distro if you have enough time on your hands.

:D :D

I guess in the long run its a matter of which distro you feel most comfortable and confident with. What you can "get your head around" and learn most from, if thats your goal.

In addition to Gentoo, I run Knoppix/Debian and Suse 9.1 on harddisk, and have played with numerous LiveCDs.

They each have a different feel, the forums too - some distros are just that much easier to update to 'cutting edge' than others.

"Cryptic messages and dependency problems", show me a distro that doesn't have those.. ;-)

As for waiting around while new packages download & compile in the background.. its not as tho' you can't do other things at the same time - on your system - but it certainly helps to have a reasonably powerful PC, and enabling 'ccache' speeds things up a bit too.

Btw, those who prefer a quick install are able to install using Stage 3, and can install a number of packages from a binary Packages CD.

Please don't think I'm knocking Debian here. I just like to encourage others to 'taste a good wine' :-)

mvh

[Cuddles]

Wow, and I feel good that I'm just changing from Knoppix to Kanotix - this is sobering :(

I can, and have, knocked apt, many times, but, never considered the "other" ways Distros install, never seen, or used, them... But, I have to admit, when you have to break-down, and compile, that gets really scarey... Nothing a newbie likes to see, and not having a clue what "is" and "isnt" good or bad, doesnt help matters... ( was that a "good" error? Or a "bad" error, kind of thing )

I have to admit, these forums have been a lot of my education, and I have only read one book about Linux ( a Sys Admin book, and it was written for RedHat, not that hard to translate into Debian-based ), I wont count the "other" book I read, considering it was "glossy" on the Linux subject, ( the blue screen of death book ).

Knoppix has been my "eyes" and "hands" to the world of Linux, I think I can "manage" to work, and know what to do, stuff... If I hit something I havent a clue about, I hit this forum up, either a search for previous posts on my issue, or, last ditch, a new post. I use my "knowledge" to post back on subjects I have learned, or have ideas about, and tend to "watch" posts, to see if something "catches my fancy"...

I dont think I will ever sway from anything Debian, I think I'm just a "Debian Girl", and I dont think that is ever going to change. I'm not one to go after installing new OS's just to see what they look like, or do, I tend to run what I need, or have to, to do what I want... And, I appologize for ANYTHING I have ever said about apt, it is got to be the best, considering the alternatives :)

Ms. Cuddles

[nishtya]

Yay Apt. And deb. You can actually use apt (am using synaptic as a mgr) on other distros. I am/was used it on Fedora (FC is going byebye, gonna run SUSE as a spare). And well, it is apt. But there is just something about the implementation of apt system in debian that they are perfect for each other!

Cuddles, do not apologize for being a Debian girl! Hey, debian is supposed to be hard, remember? I dunno...it's like if you cut your teeth on these live CDs (and I should say deb based live CDs, there are other distros' versions and they stinko) and Deb, well who coined the baby duck back in the other thread? I think it was you!

[garyng]

Agree with probono.
I've tried Gentoo before, and didn't suit me....I guess I don't have enough patience to wait for anything to compile everytime I want to install programs.
It's a good distro if you have enough time on your hands.

:D :D

I guess in the long run its a matter of which distro you feel most comfortable and confident with. What you can "get your head around" and learn most from, if thats your goal.

In addition to Gentoo, I run Knoppix/Debian and Suse 9.1 on harddisk, and have played with numerous LiveCDs.

They each have a different feel, the forums too - some distros are just that much easier to update to 'cutting edge' than others.

"Cryptic messages and dependency problems", show me a distro that doesn't have those.. ;-)

As for waiting around while new packages download & compile in the background.. its not as tho' you can't do other things at the same time - on your system - but it certainly helps to have a reasonably powerful PC, and enabling 'ccache' speeds things up a bit too.

Btw, those who prefer a quick install are able to install using Stage 3, and can install a number of packages from a binary Packages CD.

Please don't think I'm knocking Debian here. I just like to encourage others to 'taste a good wine' :-)

mvh

If it is simply i386(native boot), I believe most distro is more or less the same, a matter of taste. But Debian is unmatched when it comes to odd cases which is what I am facing. I can't find an easy way to "install" redhat/suse/mandrake for my colinux, or my Xbox but debian is easy as I just need to debootstrap a rootfs on another machine. Gentoo is fine based on what I have read. I also need to occasionally compile/install some programs for my WRT54G and Debian is the only distro that has mipsel arch(I run a NFS rootfs on my WRT54G to compile quick and dirty packages for it). The same applies to my will be acquired device NSLU2, that has ARM, again only debian has such distro.

The strength of Debian is that it is so comprehensive that one can easily fork something based on it, witness the derivatives we have.

[firebyrd10]

My first taste of a linux system was a Red-Hat based distro. I didn't like it and it kind of swayed me against linux. After awhile I found the knoppix cd and gave it a try again.

Enjoying that I then install dehbain useing one of their install cds.

Thats my other base system.

I got three.
In order of most used.

1. Windows XP, It just got all my games and programs really.
2. Pure Debian sarge, wanted to give it a try and I run it often.
3.Knoppix 3.6 install, uses it to make dvds because it already has what I need.

I don't plan on ever moving from debain.

[cintra]

Read others' thoughts

in a new thread "your experience with Linux Distros" found at:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=257315&highlight=

regards
:-)

[baldyeti]

I can't find an easy way to "install" redhat/suse/mandrake for my colinux
I had no need to install any new distro to run under colinux - my existing debian can be booted on its own or under XP via colinux. This is especially easy since they introduced device aliasing, so the (virtual) partitions of colinux (as declared in the xml config file) can be named just like the real ones. I also have a tiny startup script which adapts the IP address depending on whether linux is the main or hosted OS. I bet this all would work with any linux distribution, after the initial careful setup of colinux config file. Try it I bet you'll all love it.

BTW, you need 0.6.2 for device aliasing to work (makes it much easier to boot existing install, eg fstab is the same since partition names are the same). This version has not been released yet, so grab the latest snapshot (http://www.colinux.org/snapshots/). The colinux support & dev mailing lists are also mirrored at news.gmane.org, which makes it real easy to access.

[ZeroKun]

I tried FC3 test 3 and it was slow.......so slow. I mean it took like 30 seconds for the terminal to pop up when on my debian system it was almost instant.

[nishtya]

Same experience here with FC2. It acted like a doze computer full of spyware or something. Awful slow, preoccupied with I don't know what.

[garyng]

I can't find an easy way to "install" redhat/suse/mandrake for my colinux
I had no need to install any new distro to run under colinux - my existing debian can be booted on its own or under XP via colinux. This is especially easy since they introduced device aliasing, so the (virtual) partitions of colinux (as declared in the xml config file) can be named just like the real ones. I also have a tiny startup script which adapts the IP address depending on whether linux is the main or hosted OS. I bet this all would work with any linux distribution, after the initial careful setup of colinux config file. Try it I bet you'll all love it.

BTW, you need 0.6.2 for device aliasing to work (makes it much easier to boot existing install, eg fstab is the same since partition names are the same). This version has not been released yet, so grab the latest snapshot (http://www.colinux.org/snapshots/). The colinux support & dev mailing lists are also mirrored at news.gmane.org, which makes it real easy to access.

I have to stick with 0.6.1 because I can only work on 2.4 kernel for now(The Xbox support in 2.6 is not complete and WRT54G also use a 2.4 kernel). Transporting an existing roofs for a distro is not too difficult, it is the initial installation that is a problem. Say I want a SUSE, I need to give it a "real" computer to install to before I can extract its rootfs. This cannot be done on my PC which has one big HD with one big NTFS partition, nor on my Xbox. The only way is to use VMWARE or VirtualPC but I am poor and don't want to pay for it.

[jjmac]

The strength of Debian is that it is so comprehensive
that one can easily fork something based on it,
witness the derivatives we have.




Yes, deb doesn't intrude on the user, as others
will. So ... in a nut shell


If a person wishes to use
the debconf
facility, they may of course.

It has a very straight forward generic
approach, which tends to give me a lot of faith
in the overall direction of the industry, in a way.

Computing generally seems to get bogged down with
advertising and corporate scamming a bit to much for
my liking. But i suppose thats true for most everything
really.

I like the simplicity of the deb package. After all, it's just a
couple of tar.gz
files that have been archived via
"ar". Allowing them
to easily be used outside of the packaging system.

Even the flatness of debs' packaging system
is a plus.

It allows a user (admin) to have easy access.
While maintaining a good level of security via the
standard, and excellent unix styled permission/ownership
system.

In short, you can tailor and use deb in any way
you like. It becomes not only a stable working
environment, but also an excellent educational vehicle.

It's a curious thing though, that deb has such a
techi reputation for some reason.

Iv'e found it to be the simplest to
use and maintain
myself, mainly due to the the reasons mentioned
above concerning package/config management.

Is it because deb doesn't make a lot of noise,
In that, it's the person who just sits there and
gets on with their thing, while all the people around
get it in their heads that they must be an
intellectual of soughts, deep in thought.

Narhhh, just trying to figure out what's making their
toes wiggle :D

I think a lot of people also tend to mistake their
WM for their distro. Once debs been updated, it will do
the latest kde/gnome too ...

Anyway, enough plugs :), as mentioned, a lot
depends on what a person takes to. I did find RH
the hardest distro to use myself though. I like to
do "fvwm" as a WM, RH's Anotherlevel, well,
now there's a good example of how "out of space"
M4 scripting can get.

:)

hmmm, i'm just thinking out load a bit here.

I wish i had the time to give other distros the
time they deserve. It's a little hard to
properly evaluate a system after only a few
months, or even after only a year, really. The more
familiar a person gets with a distro style,
well ... dosen't their whole approach to
it change as well, and so their opinion.

I would guess most people would come in on
a esthetics base really, rather than functionality.

hmmm, must admit, the guy with the red hat irritated
me, and the guy with the wand made me feel like
someone was trying to treat me like a fool, which i
can be really, but don't like to be treated as such :), ...
debs swirl seemed very non-threatening ...
maybe that was it, after all.

Anyhow, bye for now :)

jm







jm

[Cuddles]

jjmac,

For me, it wasnt even the "Debian Swirl" that attracted me, it was the "Digitized Eye" of Knoppix. I started out with Knoppix v3.2, and the big thing was the digital eye. I booted the Live CD, while still keeping my Win98 safe-and-sound in the background, and that was all it took...

I started to boot the Live CD more and more, than using my Win98 boot, and then dedicated a complete hard drive for an install. At that time, Knoppix v3.3 was out. After a few months of running v3.3 on my "older" system, I decided to buy a newer system, one specifically designed to run Linux ( which is the system I still have ).

Both systems have Win98 installed on them, only the "bare minimum", just for Wine support. This system has gone through one more "install", it was gutted and installed from Knoppix v3.3 to v3.4 ( with the experimental 2.6.6 kernel ).

My next "big" thing is going to get two NIC's into both systems, then they both are going to get Kanotix BH9a installed on them. I've got the two NIC's in hand now, I still need the cable, but, the big stopping point now is, time. I need to take down "the tower of computers" to get to there cases, install the NIC's, replace out a defective CD-ROM in the older system, and get the cable between the systems in place, before I want to install the OS's on both. "The tower of computers" is a result of the fact that my system is on the floor, as well as the older system, with a UPS inbetween the cases, then a shelf unit is on top of the cases, a board, and the "older" systems monitor, mouse, and keyboard are on this board. To get to the cases, the whole "tower" needs to be dissasembled. If I was smart, I'd redesign the complete arrangement, so that the "desk" encorporated the cases under it, and the desk would hold both systems on top of it, so that you could get to the cases easier, but, havent gotten to that designing yet...

I wanted to work out the "network" idea, having one system control internet access for both, but, didnt think that Win98 would serve the purpose, it always needed rebooting, ( system resources always leaked, and the only way to get them back, was to reboot ). Now, with Linux, the "dream" can be fullfilled. My system will not only be the "internet server", but will also be the "printing server", and both systems will have "shared" resources between them. With the experiance I have with Windows, it would have choked on the internet, and the printing would have only drove it further into the ground...

I've never tried any other Distro, and I dont feel "left out" either. I think Debian is about the best, especially when compared to Windows, which is the only thing I can compare it with, in my background. Knoppix introduced me to Debian, and Linux, and I have "evolved" into Kanotix. The "Swirl" was never anything but a logo to me, nothing to fear, nothing to get "hyped" about, it was just a logo...

As for why Linux gets the "bad rap" on being "Techie" ? I think it comes down to the CLI, and some of the "cryptic" commands. There have been lots of discussions on this topic in these forums, and most of them come down to the Command Line Interface, and the fact that the commands are "a technophiles wonderland" in trying to understand them; ls is for dir, cat is for type, etc... Linux has its ties to the UNIX command language set, whereas, Windows, has its history in DOS - DOS and Windows being the ones that hit the "user" world, and UNIX was for the "Big" guns, the systems that took complete floors of buildings, kind of thing.

I know some of my information is probably incorrect, and can be disputed as not "factual", as far as historical, but, this is what I think... ( so dont flame me here ) but, I think Bell Labs was working on a release of UNIX that would target the "home user", or the "non-Main Frame" computers, but I think it was Linux that actually made good on that. Linux was the first "non-Windows" OS that looked, and worked, like Windows, but, was completely redesigned with the idea of UNIX behind it, not like Windows. Windows is based, loosely, on DOS, with band-aids into DOS to make a GUI. UNIX was powerful, designed at the mainframe level, servers, and Linux brought the GUI into it, and made it capable of running on something a little smaller than a "whole floor" computer system. Hence, some programs, like AVast, still only see Linux as a "server" and not a "workstation" operating system.

This may also be a reason for the "techie" stigma of Linux, its a server OS. Most of the "common" users of Windows, the "general public" here, are "users" of Windows, and not "servers". These people run Windows as a "workstation", and Microsoft has "pandered" to these people by making all the settings, and configurations, for you, in the background, and "behind the curtain". When you move from Windows into the Linux World, that "curtain" is removed, and you are left to make these settings, and configurations, on your own. In Linux, you need to "know" what you have, at an almost "intimate" level. In Windows, when you wanted to add a modem, you just needed to know make and model, probably, the OS would work everything else out for you. In Windows, if you wanted to install a new video card, you probably just plugged it in, and Windows would do everything for you... Not always the same in the Linux World...

For the same two examples above, In Linux, you want to add a new modem; is it a WinModem, is it supported, what "chipset" does it have, is it internal or external, etc... For the video card; again, is it supported, does it have drivers, what "chipset" does it have, are the drivers included in the kernel already or do you need to locate and compile them into the kernel, etc...

Hate to give a "real life" example of what "some" Windows users are like, but, I think this example will prove a little of where "they" would think the terminology of "techie" means, to them...

Had a man call into Windows Microsoft Network ( MSN ) Internet Service, phone rep at the time. The guy "claimed" he bought AOL for $90, and had the CD to prove it. First thought was, I could have ditched the guy, cause we dont provide support to our compettitor, we were MSN, this was a AOL issue, but, I wanted to help the guy... Chances are, he'd drop AOL someday, and the assistance he got from me, in MSN, could sway him to coming over to MSN, maybe...

So, the second thought was, he "bought" AOL ? You dont have to buy it, you get tons of them in the mail, even when you dont want them, why, and how, did he BUY it? ( must have been a really good sales-person, in my back mind )

Intrigued, I asked him to "explain" how he came to BUY aol... He replied that he went down to the Computer Store, and found it on the shelf, and paid $90 for it ( USD ) - and this was back in, say, 1993, so it was a little expensive. I figured that I'd never get any more information with this line of questions, I went with another theory... I asked the guy, what kind of packaging it came in?

My thought was, if its just a CD, its got to be a small package. He replied it was in a box, maybe about 3" x 5", and about 3/4" deep... Hmmm, thats awfully big for a CD case package, but, at that time, just about the right size for a package that contained a modem, internal one that is... So, I continued... Did anything else come in the box, other than the AOL CD? yes - Did it have any packing? yes - Did this packing have sharp pointing things on one side of it? yes - Was this packing green, and possibly in "bubble wrap"? yes - Did this green thing have a silver, or metal plate on one side, and did it look like you could plug a phone cord into it? yes -=- AAAHAAAA -=- WE HAVE OUR ANSWER :!:

In the best tactful, and non-demeaning way I could, I explained to the guy, he had bought a modem, and AOL came FREE in the package. He didnt buy AOL for $90, he bought a modem for $90. To finalize my hypothesis, I asked him "Why did you call us ( AOL or MSN ), because, up to now, nothing seemed to initiate the call for help, yet?" - He answered, he was trying to install AOL, from that CD, and it reports "it cant find a modem" -=- BINGO ! We have a winner !!!

The next ten minutes were spent trying to find that box, and the "packing" that came in it... What it all boiled down to, was... He threw the box and packing away, figuring it was waste, and the trash-person already came and took the trash away. The guy was S.O.L. - in essence, he had BOUGHT AOL for $90, plain and simple...

So, in the case of this guy, "techie" could have just been the fact that he had to install something inside his own computer. I had another, "funny" story from the case files of MSN Support, about the lady who installed MSN, and after getting online, and checking her "email" - it would report "You've Got Mail!" -=- So, she went out to the end of her driveway, and checked her "snail mail". The "trek" was a rather long one, from what I gathered, because it happened a few times to her, and she figured, someone was playing games with her, someone was removing her snail mail between the time the computer said she had mail, and the time it took her to "physically" check her snail mail box... She finally called MSN Help, and I got her call. I had to explain the whole "email" thing to her. For this person, I would say "techie" was the whole email thing...

Now, if we want to look at the above examples of what "techie" is, and then apply them to Debian, or to Linux, for that matter - WHOA - my only conclusion here is, thank god they are running WINDOWS - can you IMAGINE a Linux Help Phone Support getting some of the CLI calls??? On the reality, I have come to find, and think, that most people who run any variant of Linux, are a lot more intelectual, we dont call Tech Support for printer problems and come to find out we never turned the printer power on, we dont call Tech Support for modem problems and come to find out we never put the internal modem into the computer in the first place, we might fire off a post on not being able to connect to the internet, and come to find out our little "kittie" was playing behind the computer and happened to unplug the phone line from the modem, but that happens... I think the "techie" stigma is good, in many ways, it keeps the "dim bulbs" from attempting to use it, or at least, instills a thought that MAYBE you need to do some learning to run Liunx, and it keeps the "burnt out bulbs" from ever attempting to run Linux in the first place...

Not saying that everyone who runs, or wants to run, Linux, has to have a 500 Watt bulb lit up above there heads, just the idea that they have promise, capable of learning new things, and, possibly, the will to succeed. I have very little knowledge of UNIX, or Linux, I used to do some things on a Sparc ( Sun Microsystems ) workstation, using there variation of UNIX OS, I remembered the ls and cat commands, how they work, and what they do, but, this has all been a learning game. I think I fare well, I've done some learning, and growing, but, I think I have a lot more. ( still a lot of things I dont know )

I have come to think of "Linux", or particularly, the "L" in the front of Linux, to be "Learning". Linux isnt Windows, but, on the odds of where most Linux people are coming from, thats a majority of where they have there experiance at, Windows. The hardest thing to overcome, is, that, that experiance isnt that helpful in Linux. I have run Windows since its introduction of Win3.x, and it is all "basically" useless in Linux. Years and years of knowledge, dont account for much in the Linux World, its still new, its still different, and has just made me humbled to the fact that I have to re-learn something. It is kind of exillerating, in a sadistic kind of way. Its like playing a board game, where you are just about to "win" the game, and someone sends you back to the beginning, to do it all over again. I think this kind of thinking; a challenge, something new, something different, something to learn, has a lot to do with a persons success in Linux, any Distro. If the stigma of being "techie" can keep the people who arent willing to try, or work at it, away, then great - they can stay running Windows - ( and clog up the Windows Tech Support people :) )

Just my two thoughts of this,
Ms. Cuddles
DISSCLAIMER: The views expessed by this poster are there own, dont flame them for having "free speech", and dont take offense if you feel this poster is "targetting" you, the views are "generalized", and not targetting anyone in specifics. You Run What You Want To Run - For Whatever Reason - No Diss Intended - To Anyone

[gnarvaja]

Wow! I had to stop and take a breath after Cuddles' post.

I have been meddling with PCs for the last 19 years (jeez I'm old), without counting my CPM days. I've been mostly a M$ user for business reasons, but I've had contact with Unix/Linux for many many years too. My first Linux installation was from whatever the 2nd Red Hat distribution was back in the mid 90s (I think). Over these years I learned to be agnostic. Every time I favored A over B for technical reasons, the market (ie: clients) burned me because they liked B better. This was true wether we were talking about 'Lotus 1-2-3 vs Excel', TurboC vs MSFT C, Red Hat vs SUSE, MS Office vs Star Office vs OOffice, etc.

Having learned my lesson, over the past 8 years I've been following very closely the Linux/OSS evolution, in particular regarding usability. I have to say that for the first time I found the right one: Knoppix 3.6. Why? mostly because its powerful autoconfiguration. It was the first time I got Samba, WiFi, X Server, printers, sound and everything else to work effortlessly. I did a PMI install so I could leave my desktop HD untouched (I had an ext2 and swap partition left from previous tries) since there is not proper support for digital cameras and photo printing. As a result, all my kids (the youngest is 10 years old) would rather use the Linux box than the Windows one. That includes using OOffice to get their homework done.

Everybody knows a techie in the neighborhood or within the family. Any of those techies can figure out Knoppix in a couple of hours. In my humble oppinion we're going to see more and more of Linux machines in homes, where stories like the ones in Cuddles' post will become history.

Want an example? TiVO (http://www.tivo.com) runs on Linux and any couch potato can operate it better than their old VCR, let alone their PC.

--GN
DISCLAIMER: Same as Cuddles'.

[chris-harry]

Debian is EVIL!!! and i love EVIL!!! (because i am a crazzy banana... hence the picture)

[CrashedAgain]

Chris-Harry whatever you been smokin I want some.

and Cuddles, if I ever need a help line, I want you on the other end of it.

like gnarvaja, I've been around for a while. My first experience with any sort of computer was hacking into a mainframe to do some homework in my university days. That was back when ANY computer was a mainframe. It ran 'time-shared basic' and programs were entered via paper punch tape!
I missed out on cp/m but I did have a commodore 64. I still think those guys could really program...a complete word processer plus your document all fit into 32K. I've used MS (DOS & Windows) since but I never really liked them. I use Linux as much as possible because

1) I am really against MS's-corporate-crusher attitude and I don't trust them especially since I found my HP pavilion computer came with spyware installed by the factory
2) I can understand/customize/modify Linux and it's very interesting to learn my way around the O/S
3) Linux is superior...yes, really.... particularly in areas like inherent security & virus resistance, etc.

Knoppix was the first distro I found that would actually install & run & it spoiled me for apt-get. I tried some of the others mentioned ...Yoper wouldn't install, Slackware was a real possibility but installing apps just too much work, Mandrake worked well out-of-thebox but was very difficult to upgrade, Linux-from-Scratch would have been an exercise in self-torture. So I'm back with Knoppix (actually just now installing kanotix BH9) because of apt-get. Rpm's, Rpmdrake, urpmi, yast etc aren't even in the same league.

Proof: look who's adapting apt to their systems now.

[chris-harry]

*hands over the drugs to crashedagain*... :D

[Markus]

I did have a commodore 64. Heh, I still have mine complete with C-cassette drive. Although after sitting in a closet for ~20 years the transistors are probably dead.


1) I am really against MS's-corporate-crusher attitude and I don't trust them especially since I found my HP pavilion computer came with spyware installed by the factory This is no joke? You really had complimentary spyware? Where's the world going to :shock:


Knoppix was the first distro I found that would actually install & run & it spoiled me for apt-get. I tried some of the others mentioned ...Yoper wouldn't install, Slackware was a real possibility but installing apps just too much work, Mandrake worked well out-of-thebox but was very difficult to upgrade, Linux-from-Scratch would have been an exercise in self-torture. So I'm back with Knoppix (actually just now installing kanotix BH9) because of apt-get. Rpm's, Rpmdrake, urpmi, yast etc aren't even in the same league.

Proof: look who's adapting apt to their systems now. Yep, makes one wonder how slackware came to name their new package system slapt-get.

[gnarvaja]

1) I am really against MS's-corporate-crusher attitude and I don't trust them especially since I found my HP pavilion computer came with spyware installed by the factory This is no joke? You really had complimentary spyware? Where's the world going to :shock:
Spyware/Adware companies sueing each other for uninstalling software that the PC users didn't even know it was there in the first place: Two adware firms battling in court (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/202969_adware09.htmll) :D

[Markus]

Spyware/Adware companies sueing each other for uninstalling software that the PC users didn't even know it was there in the first place: Two adware firms battling in court (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/202969_adware09.htmll) :D Good one :lol: Especially:

"Without any cause or right, we have been severed from our business relationship with millions of customers without their knowledge and consent," Boday said.

Doesn't seem to matter that the customers didn't know they had a business realtionship :D

[CrashedAgain]

1) I am really against MS's-corporate-crusher attitude and I don't trust them especially since I found my HP pavilion computer came with spyware installed by the factory This is no joke? You really had complimentary spyware? Where's the world going to :shock:


No joke. I would not have known about it but when I first started playing with linux I bought a used 1.1 G HP Pavilion (probably one of the last factory boxes with winME) which I immediately partition the HD & reistalled winME. Then I noticed every time it started up there was a dos app which ran for a few seconds after boot then disappeared. I forget now what it was called but did a google & it turned out to be some kind of spyware that came with certain compaq & hp models of that era. I think it ran for a while after initial install then removed itself.

[jjmac]

Cuddles ...

I did mean to reply earlier but time just slipped
away ....

>>
>> Digitized Eye
>>

You must mean the Knoppix wallpaper. Is that
what it is :), i thought it was some sought of
mechanical thing. In that it looked like it had
gearing type teeth, which i read as something to do
with mechanisms working together.

Oh well :), not to worry, it is cool and it is
important to have a cool logo :wink:.

It was the swirl that got me into deb initially.
It seemed to be asking a question, and at the same
time leading into a kind of center. As though the
question and answer were somehow the same. It
seemed to ominous at the time, to ignore :)

I can see what you kinda mean, concerning the
approaches of Windows and Linux. But i also tend
to think that it could have happened better
if Win hadn't taken over the market/industry
as they did. There's no wrong in being successful
in business of course, but Win did go about it about
it in a somewhat questionable manner. If not for the manipulations, we
may well have been enjoying a more advanced,
diversified and secure computing experience today.

I hope you haven't been slowly cooking your
processor(s) as a result of the layout you describe.
Good luck with the redesign. It does sound like
a good idea. That air really needs to be able to
circulate around the boxes.


>>
>> I've never tried any other Distro, and I
dont feel "left out" either ...
>>

You haven't been. There all the same basically.
except for different marketing and promotion, and
differences in the software versions they
bundle.

The only real differences just concern the
maintenance tools and the package management system
used. They tend to have subtle variations in
the way they implement the 'init' stage as well.
But that just boils down to the directory paths
used, and possibly the runlevel choices.



>>
The "Swirl" was never anything but a logo to me,
nothing to fear, nothing to get "hyped" about,
it was just a logo.
>>

A person, has just got to have, a cool logo but :D



>>
Had a man call into Windows Microsoft Network
( MSN ) Internet Service, phone rep at the time.
The guy "claimed" he bought AOL for $90,
.
.
.
>>


Yes, ... don't stop there :)

When a person is all shagged out, after a loonngg
days edit, thats __exactly___ whats needed. Please,
list them all. Maybe in its' own dedicated thread
some where. That would be a really good site addition.



I think you maybe wrong were you say that your
MS experience,

>>
... dont account for much in the Linux World ...
>>


It does really, it's just that you probably don't
notice it anymore. It's just gone into you, and
become part of your autonomic system.



>>
Not saying that everyone who runs, or wants to run,
Linux, has to have a 500
Watt bulb lit
up above there heads ...
>>

Anyone who suggests that something they try for
the first time, with out any other related experience
to draw on, was easy, can't remember what
it was like learning how to walk. Not the easiest
of feats, but easy once a person gets used to
it :).


I tend to think, a persons training, aka,
education; what is supposed to expand them,
is also what tends to hold a person back. Notice
the way very young people often take to computers
so easily, in my opinion, because they haven't
been taught yet that its ___supposed___
to be hard.

A lot of people will decided on how their experience
is going to go, concerning something new
or unfamiliar, before they even bother to start.
Which kinda suggests to me, that there may be
a little more to it, than just that computers are
inherently difficult,t or anything like that.

As my 8 year old nephew says "... there a snak ..." :)


hmmmm, "comprehensive", ... I think i probably do
agree with the thread topic. Deb has led to a
lot of very good distros. Including Knoppix. And
there not afraid to mention that the "very latest
cutting edge" packages may have problems, lurking
some where with in them. After all, it takes time
to find those obscure bugs. Where as, some of the
other popular distros don't seem to want to mention
it. And i think, with all fairness and respect for
their user base, they should. And it is also a
generic standard in a way too, for an OS. So it does
become suitable, from a "learning how computers
work" point of view. Rather than learning how a
particular distro works.

I mean, deb was devised as a 'proof of concept'
expression, rather than as a distro as such. It
was meant to show that GNU F.S.F concepts could
be actualised, in a working OS. Deb also, has always
encouraged people to use it in terms of their
own derived works. Which has resulted in some,
quite nice debian based OS flavours coming about.


But, enough yack :), more of those stories, There
really good :)

All the best ...


jm



Hey crashed ... Well there you go. "Pre-installed
spyware" !. That's just totally outrageous.

Strangely, it dosen't surprise me at all for
some reason :)