"forum" versus "board"

[tmp000]

I'd ask that the labels on this site get fixed - change all occourences of "forum" to "board". You are obviously only running a discussion board here, this is something different.

Of course this lie is intentional, as "forum" sounds much more appealing than "board" to many many people. The reason is, that most web users already have stumbled across so many of the latter class and besides what the "webmasters" try to think, they aren't cool in any way - a discussion hinderance to say the least. Ah yes, popularity and superiority are two different things (see Windows and Linux)!

Why do I sound so impolite here?

Easily answered, I'm frustrated that so many web sites still look like 1996 - forcing me to get yet another user account (had already trashed a hundred elsewhere) on a _discussion board_ that I only use once is somewhat impolite. This is not in the open source spirit at all, regardless of how you paint it or which pseudo excuses you have for that oh-we-need-to-build-a-community-with-many-thousand-user-accounts attitude.

[probono]

Hi tmp000,

I agree with you that it's a bit tedious to set up and keep track of a ever-growing number of user accounts. However, I think user accounts are neccessary in order to build a community in the sense that you can get to know the people (by realnames or pseudonyms), make friends, and can hold people responsible. Even debian uses a strict system of user accounts for this purpose.

Greetings,
probono

[chris-harry]

I think user accounts are neccessary in order to build a community in the sense that you can get to know the people (by realnames or pseudonyms), make friends, and can hold people responsible. so true... if you have a comunity of people, you can do alot... for example, the help forum... only a community of people would help this one person...

would you help an enemy or a friend if you had to choos? (retorical, i was hoping to express a point)... and now i think i went off the point... but, hay that me... merry christmas, and a happy new year.

[Cuddles]

Symantics, mostly...

"message board" or "forum", "book" or "referance manual", etc... This is a, by reason of how you "post", a message board. BUT, these are "forums". This being "posted" in "The Lounge" forum. I dont have a dictionary around to "quote" this, but, I think a "forum" is a place to contain a topic, or related topics.

Hence, each "set" of topics is given a nice "group" -=- General Support, Networking, Laptop, Games, The Lounge, etc... This "grouping" allows for related topics and discussions to be found in a "same" related location... or a FORUM for discussion...

As for "membership", or having to have "user accounts" -=- I think it breeds "accountability", and a sense of "responsibility", for what someone "posts" or says. I have seen "open" posted sites move to this, from not requiring anyone to be a "member", to having to be a member of the site. From the obvious reasons; It cuts down on the "signal to noise" ratio ( a common term given to any site that has topics, forums, of posted messages; signal represents the amount of good, or real posts, to the noise, which represents the amount of "junk" or non-related messages, or posts. )

Signal to noise can be measured in almost anything, but, it mostly relates to Chat Rooms, Message Boards, and Forums. A good example of this "signal to noise" ratio, is the old favorite, MAC and PC sites. Someone, usually a person who creates a "fake" account to gain access to the "Forum", posts a "flamed" message, or a "flamed" chat expression, in a location that is not "topic related" to the location. As my example: a person posts something like "PC's are better than MAC's!" into a forum for MAC discussions, or vice-versa. The "signal" on the site was at normal, discussions on related topics, at which point, after this "noise" is introduced into the "signal", the forum goes through mass reprocussions till the original "signal" is brought back to normal...

A true "signal to noise" person, is one, who, is not frequent of that site, does not post very much, has a generalized nickname; like TEMPORARY, or GUEST, and probably, will never be seen again, AFTER the inflammed posted "noise" is introduced, on that site... I think the Site Administrator is smart in the way that; you must be a "member" to post, accountability. When you post, your nickname is posted with that, responsibility. And, that when you post, your "posted messages" is maintained with your "account".

I, for one, do not post anything, nor, say anything, that "I" will not be "held to" what I said. If I post, its either from the "heart" or from what I believe. I can be proven wrong, but, that leads to "discussions", proofs and learning, and growth, but not for the intent of "flamming"...

Being from a "job" that entailed "Tech Support", I dont enrage, I dont antogonize, I help. I dont flame, I dont argue, I discuss. And, lastly, I dont say, or do anything, that I can not be held accountable for saying, or doing. I see the "membership" or "user account" issue, here, as a way of "keeping the peace", and for people who want that, a nice environment for discussions, or "topic related assistance", it does just that... The only time I have had to "step in" and do my "Moderator" duties, is when, they had the "membership required to post" wall, down. I think the "other" moderators may be able to back me up on this one.

People come to these forums, in dire emergencies, in a time, where they are not always, at there best, in need of assistance, as is the "usual" case when dealing with any "tech support" arena. Something broke, or something isnt working, or something isnt doing what it should, and they need some helpful assistance on What do I do? -=- The Forum "topics" have been set up to facilitate, hopefully, them knowing where they can go, or ask, for the assistance they need.... and, hopefully, get a response, or answer, in a "helpful", and "friendly", environment. I would hate to be "associated" with a site that wouldnt do that; where someone who is at there wits end, frustrated, and about to toss, a very expensive piece of equipment, out the window, and possibly, to land on some "poor, unsuspecting" person who might be walking below there window. I think these "FORUMS" provide that assistance. I think, many, people have posted "I'm going to kill someone if I cant get this to work" posts, and I WOULD HOPE, that no one just responded saying: Here is the rope! or Here is the gun!

Kind of reminds me of the old joke... Suicide Provention Help Line... and then "please hold", or worse, the person at the "Help Line" gives them IDEAS on how they can succeed or accomplish there task; you have a gun? good... Now, point the end at your forehead, and slowly, very slowly, pull the trigger... ( I'll wait to your finished, to be sure you get it right... ) -=- BANG!!!! -=- You still there? YES? Ok, lets try another way...

Having worked at a VERY well known "company", and being one of "there" representatives, given the responsibility to assist and help others with that "companies" product... I can attest, I never ditched a customer, I never had a customer do something that I knew would trash there system, and I never had a customer do something that I; one, didnt know would fix the problem, or, two, didnt know I would have done to my own system for the problem they were having... I do the same here... I would never tell someone that "formatting there system drive", would solve a printer related problem, though, I have heard, some at the "company" I worked for, did. I would never leave a customer because the problem they were having was taking more than two minutes to solve, or fix, without the problem being resolved first. Which, I might add, was a VERY common thing to do in this "company"... Someone having a modem related issue, would "frequently" be "ditched", by having them change something ludicious, like force the "transmit speed" on there internet connection modem settings to a slower, or faster, speed, and have them test it to see if there modem worked now... Of course the customer only had one phone line, and when they clicked on the connection, it would terminate the phone conversation... The Tech Representative only hoped that they didnt get them, again, after they find there problem wasnt resolved, and they were calling back in again. Unfortunately, I was the one they always seemed to get. I was the representative they always got, I was the one with the longest call times, I was the one who always got "call monitored" during all of my calls, and I was the one, time, and time again, who was given the "praises" for assisting the customer, in resolving there issue, or problem, and I was the one, the "company" always praised for helping, resolving, and "defussing" the customers anger of being "ditched" by all the others. My peers always found that I could solve the customers issues, in not only a timely mannor, but, in a way that the customer could follow, understand, and without any "attituide" attached.

The "company" performed hundreds of "call-back customer surveys" on the people I had helped, and not one, had anything bad, or negligent, or even wasting of time, to say about my help they received from my assistance.

Considering that this is The Lounge, and the "topic forum" being open, I had one guy, who called because he had just installed our new Operating System, and was stuck at the "No System Disk, please insert a bootable system disk, and press any key..." message... He had just done a "COMPLETE" full install of our OS, and wasnt able to boot his system now... I knew what he needed, and how we needed to resolve the issue. He needed a bootable floppy, preferably one that was created during the install of the OS... He opted NOT to do this... He was on a ship, in the middle of the ocean, and with no one else on the ship who owned a computer. What we needed to do: boot to that "system" floppy, and perform a SYS C: command, preferably AFTER he dissabled the BOOT SECTOR VIRUS PROTECTION he must have had enabled in his BIOS. No floppy, he didnt want to have to go through "another" install, and he wouldnt look for anyone else to get a boot disk from; either from a computer dealer, or on the ship... He was SOL, I knew it, and, I think he did too, but, he refused to understand that I couldnt do anything else for him, not unless he can get a boot floppy...

So, tmp000, you want to call this a message board, and not a forum... I dont think so...


fo·rum Pronunciation Key (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra (fôr, fr)

1.
1. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
2. A public meeting place for open discussion.
3. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.

I think; 1.2, 1.3, and lastly 2, in the above quote, relavates the usage of the word "Forum" for what is being done here, in whole, or part. I think the Site Administrator is correct to have used the "term" forum, or forums to describe this site, and its usage...

Thank you,
Ms. Cuddles

[CrashedAgain]

I'd ask that the labels on this site get fixed - change all occourences of "forum" to "board". You are obviously only running a discussion board here, this is something different.

Of course this lie is intentional, as "forum" sounds much more appealing than "board" to many many people. The reason is, that most web users already have stumbled across so many of the latter class and besides what the "webmasters" try to think, they aren't cool in any way - a discussion hinderance to say the least. Ah yes, popularity and superiority are two different things (see Windows and Linux)!

Why do I sound so impolite here?

Easily answered, I'm frustrated that so many web sites still look like 1996 - forcing me to get yet another user account (had already trashed a hundred elsewhere) on a _discussion board_ that I only use once is somewhat impolite. This is not in the open source spirit at all, regardless of how you paint it or which pseudo excuses you have for that oh-we-need-to-build-a-community-with-many-thousand-user-accounts attitude.

"forum" "board" .....who cares?

"forcing me to get another user account..." is a minor inconvenience with a big plus in that knowing who's who is what makes a community.

I've overcome the problem of remembering user names & passwords the easy way; I'm "CrashedAgain" everywhere I can be and I always use the same password. I don't see this as a security issue, I never give out much identification when setting up as a user and after all, it's merely a message board (oops forum). What's some hacker going to do with the password anyway, log on as me & give out bad advice? Not much of a risk.

[eco2geek]

What CrashedAgain said.

C'mon, dude, can't you find something more interesting to complain about?

[chris-harry]

What CrashedAgain said.

C'mon, dude, can't you find something more interesting to complain about? because i can...
*complaining voice* My dog has bad breath

[jjmac]

tmp000,

Seems Ms Cuddles posted the dictionary part of what i was going to post, but i will repeat it anyway.

Also, your suggestion is stupid really, i wonder
what other non-brilliant ideas go on in that
head of yours tmp000 :). Hoping you know that no
offence is actually meant there, but when a
case for the probable need for "electro shock therapy"
is evident ... well, i think it should be pointed
out.


"The Concise Oxford Dictionary" ...

forum:

Public place, market-place, place of assembly for
judicial and other business. Place of or meeting
for public discussion; periodical etc, giving
opportunity for debate etc; court, tribunal.


>>
You are obviously only running a discussion board
here ...
>>

Which by definition, is a "forum"



>>
Of course this lie is intentional ...
>>

An inadequately researched conclusion, based
totally on your own, somewhat limited perceptions.
Not to mention its' inherently insulting. To
say it sounds more appealing is also drawing
a presumptive, and so biased, conclusion.


>>
Why do I sound so impolite here?

Easily answered, I'm frustrated that so many
web sites still look like 1996 - forcing me to
get yet another user account (had already trashed
a hundred elsewhere) on a _discussion board_
that I only use once is somewhat impolite.
>>

So, your frustrated by simple responsibility.
I hope you can maintain your own finances with
a little more skill.

Basically, that doesn't make much sense really.
You mean you can't see why different sites would require a separate account
???.

And what does 1996 actually look like, anyway ?,
and what is 2004/2005 supposed to look like.
Some personal conceit of your own it would seem.
I think if you were to ask SCO, they would say
that the "look" for 2005, really should include
the lable "licenced by SCO inc" :rool:


>>
This is not in the open source spirit at all,
regardless of how you paint it or which pseudo
excuses you have for that oh-we-need-to-build
-a-community-with-many-thousand-user-accounts
attitude.
>>

More rubbish. Maybe if they (?) just culled the
web down to one site, you might find life a
bit easier then :rool:

And what has it got to do with "Open Source Spirit",
the idea of an account is to legitimise a
poster. Otherwise you would find a lot of people
would abuse the privaledge/opportunity to post on a public forum. It's a
kind of ant-troll attempt. It would seem that your
the one doing all the painting here :).


Originally "forums" were more along the lines of
"boards". The web was more of a domain used by
academics. They would post queries and statements
with the intention to just generally announce
various issues, as well as accessing
data-bases. This wouldn't necessarily involve
the intention of stimulating on-line debate,
though, that too was possible. A "board", as
such, is basically an announcement area. As
popularity increased though, there has been a
subtle separation between the two, and a subtle
merging. Both "forums" and "boards" tend to operate
along similar lines, with sub-catagories included.

The distinction is more historical than anything
else. Is that it ?, you just lack a certain history.
And so, find it hard to see the point ...

Ouch

jm

[Cuddles]

I stand by what I said...

Considering that tmp000 has only posted two times this "highly intelligent" topic, and another, just as... (I wont go there, just to keep the peace) in the klik FORUM... and nothing else, not even replies to this topic that they had started... No other posts since December 25th, when they started these two topics, of which, were started only fifteen minutes away from each other...

tmp000 has, probably, accomplished just what they wanted... The "signal to noise" ratio has been shifted, and the FORUM, and all of its "inhabitants" are spending more time on there "topic" than to assist on "real" topics... If this is going to turn out, with a "valid" person, the probable "exuse" will be: Someone "borrowed" my account, probably a "youngster" who was having "fun", and the "owner", didnt realize this

tmp000 has increased the noise, and they probably wont ever be back again, unless, they want to come back, and check out how "much" they inflicted there damage on the FORUM, or, they want to START another noise topic...

I would suggest, that no one respond, or reply, to this "thread" until tmp000 has "graced" us, with there return... Maybe the "signal" can be returned to its original state...

Ms. Cuddles

[tmp000]

Oooops, so many words on such a topic.

Ms. Cuddles, please forgive me if I haven't studied your lengthy reply (but please put it in the board FAQ, to replace the unhelpful vanilla "why do I need to register" paragraph).

But back on topic. Despite the definitions you all tried to bring up, there is a very simple technical difference between forums and discussion boards. One is threaded, and the other isn't. (I'm sure this will yield another twenty replies of the we-don't-need-or-want-it and but-it's-easier-so sort). However there is no "fluffiness" in these terms - everybody can easily tell them appart. Any forum software can be made to look like a board, the other way round is not possible.

The real difference between these two incarnations of discussion software is however the way it is often made available to the public. Discussion boards appeal to 1996-weary webmasters, and are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more frequently locked down, because passwords and user accounts are still perceived as so uber cool.

But back on topic. Like most of you already concluded, the point behind user accounts is, that you can build a community and get to know each other. What nobody of you however considered, what eventually nobody of you knows(?) - you can have forum or discussion board software which provides user names without user accounts. Mind you, this is possible. It simply means that people can more easily post, choose their name freely, and register it eventually if they discovered that the forum or board brought some value to them, and they'd like to protect their user name therefore. It's about choice.

Since you all will try to refute this, I must probably give some "prove" here. Have a look at http://forum.de.selfhtml.org/ (use Babelfish) - user names may be choosen freely there, and people make use of it. Despite the concers Ms. Cuddles already expressed, people don't only use names like "Guest" or "Anonymous". They are given choice, and more often they use that choice to use their real names. Mind you.

So why didn't I choose my real name here, and used a useless and unwelcome guest account (with a password of "000000", btw)? Eventually because I don't care for <blink>free</blink> user accounts, like I already said?

I also run some open source projects. Besides that the software and site already is a Wiki (password-less freely editable sites, and yes it works), the sourceforge project _forums_ (no that aren't just boards) are also open post. You don't need a user account to post there. We try to be helpful, and that means not building any hurdles, support is free and doesn't require giving out an email address to strangers. And what again happens, people that do not have a SFnet account post notes and ask questions and undersign it. A phenomen?

The point I try to make is, you have choosen the wrong software, and I came to believe that this was intentional (many people seem to believe that a thousand user passwords make a site safer or so?). Closed post boards are no good advertisments for the OS community IMO.

Cheers,
mario

[tmp000]

Btw, I hope you all noticed how the last two lines made my silly guest account name immediately look like there is a real person behind. It is pure ascii text, no password protection on this, anybody could use it, I claim no patents on it either.

I know it was pretty stupid to bring this up at all, as you won't switch your software or fix the labels anyhow. But everybody else please be so kind and take that lesson - names and user accounts are two different things. And people are more likely to have a real name, if you don't _force_ them to register a nickname.

[Harry Kuhman]

And people are more likely to have a real name, if you don't _force_ them to register a nickname.
Oh? Are users here forced to register a nickname?

[eadz]

I don't think the software can be pointed at as it can be configured to allow guest posts.

However forum spam is a problem and without registration we would be overrun with posts about casinos.

Another major reason, is people here take their time to answer people's questions, and if people are registered they can have an email message when someone replies to their post - meaning they are more likely to read the response. Without the email reminder they would have to bookmark their post and check back every now and again to see if a reply has been posted, and if they forget to do that then it's just a waste of time answering their question.

[j.drake]

tmp000,

1. You're quibbling over minutiae. This site is what it is - not what we call it. You have five posts under your name. When you get to 100, I might actually give a #### what you perceive this site to be. Until then, I'm having a real hard time believing that you know enough about this place to have a valid opinion.

2. Your definition of forum applies to this place. It is threaded. It is a true discussion. It isn't in real time like chat, but it is a topical discussion. It is not a simple posting.

3. I fail to see what names and passwords have to do with what you call this site. Clearly, most of us are comfortable with the site as it is. If you aren't, deal with it.

jd

[jjmac]

I must admit, i find your argument a bit lacking
there tmp000.

In that, i haven't actually found a site, that engages
in public postings, not to be arranged along
thread lines really. I mean, a thread is just
a line of discussion within a topic heading. So, all
discussions become threads, by definition.

I don't do chat, and haven't had much to do with
open wikies, so i can't say much there. But then,
they do have different purposes in themselves, so a
direct comparison there really doesn't mean much.

I have had a fair bit to do with "groups" though.
*.os.* sites as such, they have always been
threaded.

Where do you get the idea of being "forced" to use
a certain name. Quite a lot of people will use
their own name, especially in mailing lists,
all registered. In my case, "jjmac" is actually,
almost, my initials. I would have used "jmac" but
it was already in use when i originally
submitted it. So iv'e just used the same. And as has
been mentioned, some people like to set things up
so as to be informed on responses.

I do find "spam" to be a worry though, when it
comes to submitting email as part of a registration
process. But not with regards to places such as
this, and other Linux sites for that matter. I
do when it comes to commercial sites though, like
"news-papers", "TV stations" and the like.

1996 !!!, worn out web masters !!!

good grief :D, i can hear the bones creaking now.

I think, as time goes on, the great expanse will
but shrink into the grain of sand, it really is.

This reminds me of funny poster on another
<cough> forum </cough> where the poster was trying
to figure out why people took alarm to people posting
totally in uppercase.

I probably shouldn't mention that one.

My basic motive generally, just out of interest, is
often a curiosity about the poster, rather
than the context. I tend to get curious about why
a person should have a particular idea, rather than
the idea it self. So i guess i'm a bit of a sucker
for trivia like this. Can't think of anything more
to add really.

tmp000, Could you post a couple of links to these
"non-threaded" boards you mention,not wikies :wink:
I would be interested to have a squize.


jm

(edited)

[chris-harry]

tmp000 wrote:
And people are more likely to have a real name, if you don't _force_ them to register a nickname.

Oh? Are users here forced to register a nickname?

*cough cough*... are you trying to say me name isnt real??? hmm... hmm...

[chris-harry]

by the way... harry, that wasnt aimed at you...

[Cuddles]

Oh, for pete's sake, this is getting into the rediculous...

If you didnt have a nickname, or username registered, someone else may use it - by having someone register, they "lock down" the usage of what nickname they are going to be using - thus, it accomplishes two things - both of which are necessary for honesty, consistancy, and "knowing" who the heck you are talking to...

1 ) it ensures that the person who is posting, is, in fact, the same person... If you wanted to, you could view ALL of my posts, and find out what I am running, how I am running it, what I use, and why, and what hardware I have... This can be VERY handy, if say, I havent made a "connection" of something I have, and something that hasnt, or isnt, working... Say, I am having problems with my VIDEO, and the problem may be with my USB Flash getting in the way -=- something I wouldnt think would cause a VIDEO problem, but, someone who locates, in previous posts, that I have installed and running a SanDisk USB Flash Drive, and maybe the driver, or the hardware itself, could have an issue with "whatever" video card I have... Having, or requiring someone to register a nickname, allows a HISTORY to be maintained about the poster...

2 ) it locks out someone else using that nickname, unless you want to count for someone "borrowing" that persons computer, and posting, which has happened... Having, or requiring someone to register there nickname, locks out someone else from using it... Hence, trying to remember that the person you are trying to help is Guest000 and not Guest101, and then again, that nickname may actually be the same poster. I actually LIKE having to register my nichname, it allows people to KNOW that this is ME, and has always been ME. If you want an ANONYMOUS account, one in which, you can hide yourself behind, or "lurk" within, hmmmm, sounds familiar, this kind of process does not allow for "community", it doesnt promote "sincere" posting, and ANONYMOUS postings only lead down a path of someone who just wants to FLAME others, or give out "unaccountable" information. i.e. If I post something, my NAME is attached to it, so, when I post, I MEAN WHAT I SAY, kind of thing. As a wise man once said: If you cant say something, knowing that YOUR WORD is attached to it, then, it might not be worth saying...

And heres one thing that YOU ( tmp00000000000000 ) havent figured out yet... If you have a FORUM, or MESSAGE BOARD, or CHAT ROOM, or whatever, that does not have registered users, or posters, you do not have a way of "control", or allowing people to realize that there IS some form of control, of the system. If I wasnt a "registered" account, I would not be "recognized" as being a moderator, hence, the MODERATOR that is assigned to my posts and avitar, same true with Eadz, being the Site Administrator, or Harry Kuhman, as another moderator... ( it should be noted that, I CHOOSE to have the word MODERATOR left on my account and avitar, Eadz, and I am sure other moderators, ones that dont have the "word", still have the power to do as a moderator. Eadz can have that "moderator" not be displayed, if I chose it to be that way. There are some moderators that have choosen not to have that be displayed, but are still moderators )

This "control" is not being used to "censor" or "stifle free speech", but, rather, to help "keep the peace". tmp0000000, you need to see this for what it is, a place to help, and get help... It is the way it is because, either thats the way it is, or, thats the way it needs to be. Guests being able to post, even if they COULD "freely" use any name they wish, without having to "register" it, would cause havoc, chaos. If someone liked your nickname, they could use it whenever you werent, no one would know WHO they were talking to, or possibly, trying to help. And, as you said, if it was a "freely" open system without having to register your nickname, some would choose to use something "uniquely" identifying themselves, but, I think a whole lot of others, would simply use a "generic" one, that EVERYBODY would use.

Its kind of like downloading from an anonymous ftp site, you can login as "guest", but, it is "expected" that your password be something like your email address - that way the systems administrators, the ones letting people do this for free, can justify the reasoning why they are giving away a service for free. Or, when you start some internet service account, they usually want you to provide an email address, so they can "verify" that the person who is creating this "access" is the same person who should have that access. You can go off on a "paranoid" issue of this, they want my email address so that they can sell it to marketers, and give me floods of junk mail, but, I think you have to base where you are setting up this "account" against its benefits... Setting up an account with a "porn" site is probably going to give you more email junk mail, then setting up an account here...

I also, dont think Eadz is asking people to set up accounts for the purpose of "selling" your email address to a marketer, I dont think that the reason for having accounts - if it was, I should have been over run with junk mail by now, and I havent. I think the only sole reason for having account on this site, is, for accountability, community, making it friendly, and knowing that "who your talking to" is "who you are talking to". Considering this site is maintained by volunteers, and on there free time, no cost, no access fees, and pretty much, no advertising, I think its a SMALL PRICE to pay for having to register yourself to make posts... As for the original topic that has been set on this thread, you call it WHATEVER you want to call it, if you want to call it a "registered user message board", then fine, if you want to call it a "forum", fine, you want to post, the rules are, and have been set up, to only registered users. You want to use a nickname that isnt your real name, fine, you want to use your full LEGAL name, fine, you want to use something like I have done, which I might add, has been my nickname since I started out in computing ( almost 25 plus years ), fine.

As for the "post count" issue that was raised, being over one thousand, myself, I dont belittle anyone with a lesser count than mine. I have helped people with only ONE post, the one they are posting with an issue with. I dont demean, belittle, or give any negative attituide to the fact they have less posts than me, it doesnt change the fact they are having a problem, and if I can, if I know an answer, or resolve, I will assist, period. I treat people with the SAME respect that I expect in return. I account for any frustrations they may be having, and simply want to help... So, tmp000, you have posted five times, at the time of my posting, I dont care, good or bad, its not the quantity, but the quality, its not the topic, but the attituide... As an old saying goes: you'll get more flies with sugar than vinegar.

Considering the two "initial" posts that you started out with, were, pointing out symantic descriptions of the choice of words used, people responded in kind, definitions, of which, I might add, pointed out the flaw in your "incorrect usage of words", and now, we are on the subject of "improper use of software"... I think that has been proven, invalid as well... its the way the software is... and even if it was being "improperly" used as it should, doesnt change the fact that the person who runs the software is using it the way THEY want to use it. Old saying: Golden Rule: those who have the gold, make the rules....

E'nuf said, I'm gone...
Ms. Cuddles

[j.drake]

As for the "post count" issue that was raised, being over one thousand, myself, I dont belittle anyone with a lesser count than mine. I have helped people with only ONE post, the one they are posting with an issue with. I dont demean, belittle, or give any negative attituide to the fact they have less posts than me, it doesnt change the fact they are having a problem, and if I can, if I know an answer, or resolve, I will assist, period. I treat people with the SAME respect that I expect in return. I account for any frustrations they may be having, and simply want to help... So, tmp000, you have posted five times, at the time of my posting, I dont care, good or bad, its not the quantity, but the quality, its not the topic, but the attituide... As an old saying goes: you'll get more flies with sugar than vinegar.

Insofar as I am the "guilty party" on that comment, allow me to clarify. I seriously doubt that you or anyone else will find a post of mine where I set out to "demean" or "belittle" anyone based on post count. To the contrary, oftentimes people with a low post count are idiots like me who don't catch on to the concept the first time, and have to keep reposting to learn how to do something that other people don't have problems with (e.g., how many posts did I make trying to figure out how to boot from NTFS??). Correlatively, Klaus Knopper, has five posts on a site dedicated to his invention, and I don't think that anyone here would suggest that he is in any way incompetent w/r/t his own invention.

Sorry if it got taken the wrong way, but the only reason I brought up post count was to point out that someone with six posts likely doesn't have a particularly "insightful" understanding of this forum. I can already tell from tmp000's comments in the Klik thread that he knows a lot about computing and *nix (a damn sight more than me, I'll wager!!). But, I'm sorry, Cuddles, low post count DOES correlate with the level of participation here, and without intending this to sound judgmental of anyone as a person, my thought is that someone so lacking in evidence of participation in our forum as to only have six posts has no business whatsoever coming in and criticizing the site and individuals in it, as if he has a throrough understanding of what this place is about. If someone wants to help, fine. But if they just want to criticize and make nasty comments, then they need to pay their dues and support the community before they start criticising the community and the individuals in it. Maybe he knows more than anyone else here about what other sites do, but the post count is pretty convincing evidence that he hasn't participated here long enough to have a valid opinion about what this community is like. Post count is relevant to participation, and participation was relevant to my point. When I've raised the issue of post count before, it was in the context of participation, ONLY, and only when relevant to a particular point. If anyone can find a comment of mine that contradicts this statement, feel free to let me know, and I'll eat my words publicly. As for my willingness to help people with low post counts, I think you'll find that most of the people I try to help ARE newbies with lower post counts (partly because I'm not terribly competent to help more advanced users :roll: ). I don't think that I owe anyone an apology for my willingness to help new users - in fact, I think that more often than not, I'm the person sticking up for the noobs, while others dish out "RTFM" attitude.

Anyway, forgive my post, but I felt the need to clarify. I apologize if my prior post was misunderstood.

jd

[Cuddles]

Sorry J.D, it appears that I have to "publicly appologize", for my comment was not to "point at you", but to "aide in your defense"...

I wanted my statement to show that even with my post count as high as it is, has not "hardened" me from helping others, and this comment was not brought up to show that you have not either. I am seriously sorry if that is what it came off as :(

RTFM is used by people who think they are "better" than someone else, even my "root password" posts, explain a little more than the FAQ, they could have simply been posts that read - "see this article in the FAQ", in which, they dont, they quote it... I could have also "locked" the topic, thus, not giving the chance for someone who knows an easier way, or another way, of doing it, a chance for posting what they know... Now, before I get flamed with the RTFM quote, I have "almost" used the acronym, but, contained my composure, and someone else "stepped in" to assist... I had a four screen post help for someone, and just when we got it working, the system "reverted" back to its original state after a reboot, it had been installed with the "knoppix style", and "I almost lost it..."

As J.D pointed out, I think I am the same... I am a newb with a high post count... If I was going to total up all my posts, I would think 75% of them are "help", and the other 25%, "helping"... But, I'm not going to suggest something that I dont think is going to help, and on many topics, I am clueless, thus, I wont even get involved in the topic... If I have an idea, I will say that, "I think this might work, but not sure..." kind of thing, and on some subjects, I "know" what a problem is, and will tackle the topic, fully. Linux, Knoppix, and Kanotix, are all "new" to me... So new, that, for the longest time, I was logging in as my ROOT account to do root stuff, and logging in as my "user" account when I didnt need root... UNTIL, a very nice person pointed out that you can stay logged in as your user, and get root, when you needed it... ( how dense is that? ) -=- I am quite sure that I have "tested" the "willingness" and "helpfulness" of many of the users of these forums, as to how dense I really am... and, yes, I AM A BLONDE... I come from a very long history of M$ and Windows, supremecy, and still, kind of, think in Microsoft's way of thinking - which, I might add, is not the same in the Linux World. I think my wanting to help people, coupled with the fact that "most" newb's are coming from where I am coming from, adds a better "understanding" of where "they are coming from"... I also was on the "front line" of M$'s roll-out of one of there OS's, and having to fix, solve, and work with, people through the phone to solve there problems, has given me a lot more understanding of assisting, and helping people, from the simplest, to the CEO's and "Network Guru's" who called in...

Again, sorry J.Drake if my post sounded like I was "poking" at you, it was not intended that way... In fact, I can recall, at least twice that you had assisted me in an issue I was having, and I think I might have done the same for you a few times ( not sure, but I think so ). This should be proof enough that its a give and take environment... Not everyone knows everything... And, as a wise person once said: Its not that you know everything, but, where you can find information when you need it. -=- These forums have been that for me, I may not know everything, but, I have a resource to getting that information...

Ms. Cuddles

[blujay]

Mario,

Who defines the difference between the technical terms "forum" and "board"? You? Who appointed you editor of the universal Internet dictionary?

No offense, my friend, but "forum" and "board" are two words that mean the same thing in this context. You seem to be hung up on the 1996-esque WWWboard idea of a "board." The 'Net has evolved far beyond WWWboard.

The simplest reason for requiring user registration (which seems to be your real complaint), is to prevent abuse. If anyone can post without registering, it makes it more tedious to stop abusers. I've had personal experience with this running a fairly large site--people who would register 20 different usernames, use different IP addresses, etc. That was bad enough; if they could do it without registering, it would have been easier for them and harder for me.

Get a decent password manager program, have Firefox remember your username and password, and forget about it. It's a small price to pay if the forum is one you really need to use.

[tmp000]

I really don't understand what all your peoples problem with this topic
is. There is no need to argue about what defines a forum and what a
board, this is clearly defined. Only because 95% of web sites these days
label discussion boards as forum doesn't make it any more valid; like
"hackers" aren't bad people only because mainstream media and some
uninformed tell so; and MSIE, the "Internet" and the Web are different
things as well.
Maybe this helps some of you:
(de) http://aktuell.de.selfhtml.org/artikel/gedanken/foren-boards/index.htm
(google translate) http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Faktuell.de.selfhtml.org%2 Fartikel%2Fgedanken%2Fforen-boards%2Findex.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

And to give another example (my last seemed to got dismissed here
without reason) - have a look at, ahem, http://slashdot.org/ - a forum
differs from a board in that people can reply to messages and to each
other, whereas in a board you only have one topic and a list of replies.
It's also a nice example of that open post forums can work, though I
admit the "Anonymous .." accounts there (no optional free user names)
make it less interesting to read.

Also it clearly shows that messages and spam can be managed without
assigned moderators, simply by power of user voting.

And to get real, the spam problem is the only serious problem you
mentioned that an open site has. However, there have long been solutions
to this. Now looking at the bottom of the pages here makes me think,
that the site admins aren't that much against link and google spamming
(but then it problaby only counts who spams who).

Whatever, page rank killers (redirecting links through google itself)
and limiting links in guest post for example proved to be the best
countermeasures agains spam postings, in blogs as in wikis and forum
software. Besides this, your phpBB already employs those graphical
code tests to separate humans from bots, which of course are far more
reliable than verfifying email addresses (that spammers already know
how to generate in thousands). So IMO all the technique is there to
keep spam to a minimum.

So the real reason you don't open your board is lazyness. At least,
that is my impression by now. It works elsewhere, you just haven't
tried it.

In this board, user registration is enforced for no compelling
reason; you traded open and hassle-free user support for ease
of administration. I don't applaud.

Sure I'm impertinent for now stating it this way, but if most support
and help forums on sourceforge and elsewhere provide open and easy
support, why can't YOU also do this? Really irritates me. I don't
think you are honest with your stated "user support" goals. You
scare away and offend everyone who doesn't follow your user account
dogma.

-

And Ms.Cuddles, why do think "this is getting into rediculous"? Do you
feel that offended by me not really needing a user account here?! Not
at all did I say you shall abandon your all so useful user accounts, I
just wanted to point out, that elsewhere it works without, and it's
easily possible to make them OPTIONAL.
And again, this isn't about guest accounts, or anonymous postings,
which phpBB surely would support, it is about posting without having
to go through the annoying registration process (it crosses the
medium twice, in case you didn't notice: web, email, web; the board
isn't well integrated with the mail server here).

What pissed me off, is that you expect people to give out their email
addresses, while claiming to be an open support forum. Yes, the term
"forum" sounds nice to people, because it signalizes to be an open
participation place. (Please look up the dictionary excerpt you cited
first.)
Oh, there is nothing wrong with having to sign up for some free service,
but for all the discussion boards out there this is becoming really
frustrating. Why is it that everybody nowadays feels obliqued to create
yet another separated isle?

(Nobody enjoys giving out email addresses anymore, and my personal
problem with it is, that I did this on some of these phpBB sites
and was serviced with release announcements long after I stoped using
the software the board was about. Happily @spamgourmet addresses time
out somewhen, and I don't use real passwords anymore for such sites...)

There are possibilities to share user accounts / databases across
different sites. (XML-RPC or SOAP, see Liberty Alliance - hell I'd even
use M$ Passport if you people got over your our-own-user-database
attitude)
But have the site administrators researched this first? No, not all.
Obviously phpBB needs a hard-wired internal user database, so you
couldn't even use it any other way, even if you had considered asking
anybody to share a user database with. (The whole thing is about,
that people don't want another account with every single discussion
board out there, just because the administrators like the idea of
having their very own and big list of aquired users.)

And if I read it correctly, your whole discussion of user accounts
boils down to "we need users to register with accounts, so we can
delete them" - isn't that your idea of "control"? Maybe I'm again
wrong here, but I think moderation means something different.

Your whole accountability babbling and lengthy rant about ugly
user names is bogus, unless you had actually tried it. The example
forum I pointed to last, uses OPTIONAL user accounts with freely
choosable user names. And contrary to what you tried to paint it,
people don't only use names like Guest001, Guest101, ...
Besides that THIS board is one is of the I-probably-only-visit-once
sort, I have non-registered user names within a few of the forums
where registration is OPTINONAL. Name robbing could be a problem,
but it is probably far more likely with all the boards where I simply
used the 000000 password again (really really tired of user accounts).

(yes, I use lots of impolite phrases to make my points, but you are
overly ignorant - didn't you notice?)

I'm sorry for having started a flame here (= having a different
opinion on stuff than the moderators), it was obviously the wrong
forum *rolling_eyes* for making this up. No change expected.

-

Closing this, I didn't say that it is wrong to use a board for this
site. Actually it's the better tool for the exchanges that happen here -
people come, ask a question, and more often than elsewhere never visit
again (side effect of email notifications).
This is the sort of places, where the topic-with-replies appearance
of a board makes sense. A real forum would be overkill here.

I just liked to point out, that the site admins did choose a board
in the believe it was "one of the cool forums with smilies and user
accounts". It is not an _open_ discussion forum, but a gated (or
"closed") place, and will shy half of your visitors away (I'm
obviously only the first to speak it out) rightout.

This site could be far more helpful, if you only had CONSIDERED or
tried to keep it open. And please don't belie people, it's only a
"board".

[blujay]

tmp000,

Go here:

http://www.scriptarchive.com/wwwboard.html

That's probably the most well-known and possibly oldest Perl message board/forum there is. Notice that even they use the terms interchangeably; yet the name of it is "board, yet it is, by your definition, a "forum."

Board/forum, potato/potahto...

Your cries of "it's closed and gated" are moot; anyone is free to register. It takes a little more effort. Big whoop.

[chris-harry]

just to continue what blujay is saying and to anoy tmp000...


Board/forum, potato/potahto tomarto, tamaco... sassage, sussage... fish, fosh...

its all the same.. forum, board... pritty much the same thing in todays society...

[j.drake]

M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right. (pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up. (Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)

[chris-harry]

hahaha... i get it... i feel soo smert...

man, that argument/contradiction is just like this one... :twisted: