how do i run Grub on Knoppix 3.7

[papwilly]

i did a Hd install of Knoppix 3.7 but i don't like LILO. is there a way i can install and use Grub instead? Is there a way i can change the boot screen for LILO? i see there are other bitmaps i can use but i don't know how to do it.

[UnderScore]

A good recent guide to grub - http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/grub/grub.htm

[ruymbeke]

i did a Hd install of Knoppix 3.7 but i don't like LILO. is there a way i can install and use Grub instead? Is there a way i can change the boot screen for LILO? i see there are other bitmaps i can use but i don't know how to do it.
Have also a look at these:
Windows Partition PMI: http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition
ISO boot from FAT/NTFS/USB (GRUB.exe, grldr from boot.ini): http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11796&start=180

[jmort]

Have also a look at these:
Windows Partition PMI: http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition


I have tried to perform this version of a Poor Mans Install, but it seems there are problems loading GRUB. The screen clears and an error message is diisplayed that says :

GRLDR is compressed

The machine hangs from there. It is a Dell Inspiron 3800 with a 10GB hard drive. One partition is about 9GB and contains WinXP NTFS and all my files, the other partition is about 1gB and is formatted FAT32 to work with KNOPPIX. According to this version of the poor mans install, KNOPPIX will boot from its ISO image on the NTFS partition and use the FAT32 partition to save files and transfer between Windows and Linux.

Any suggestions?



i did a Hd install of Knoppix 3.7 but i don't like LILO. is there a way i can install and use Grub instead? Is there a way i can change the boot screen for LILO? i see there are other bitmaps i can use but i don't know how to do it.

I am assuming you are able to boot using LILO? How did you perform the install? Are you having the same problem with gRUB that i am having?

Thanks,
james

[ruymbeke]

Have also a look at these: Windows Partition PMI: http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition
I have tried to perform this version of a Poor Mans Install, but it seems there are problems loading GRUB. The screen clears and an error message is diisplayed that says : GRLDR is compressed
The machine hangs from there. It is a Dell Inspiron 3800 with a 10GB hard drive. One partition is about 9GB and contains WinXP NTFS and all my files, the other partition is about 1gB and is formatted FAT32 to work with KNOPPIX. According to this version of the poor mans install, KNOPPIX will boot from its ISO image on the NTFS partition and use the FAT32 partition to save files and transfer between Windows and Linux. Any suggestions?
Did you just copy the grldr of the grubd.zip into your ntfs root directory and udate your boot.ini ? Did you try the bootgrub entry in the boot.ini (and also copy the bootgrub file) ? Is the NTFS your first partition on the first disk ? "GRLDR is compressed" I have never seen this error before...



i did a Hd install of Knoppix 3.7 but i don't like LILO. is there a way i can install and use Grub instead? Is there a way i can change the boot screen for LILO? i see there are other bitmaps i can use but i don't know how to do it.I am assuming you are able to boot using LILO? How did you perform the install? Are you having the same problem with gRUB that i am having? Thanks, james
Since you have a FAT32 partition, you can also boot dos from it using a boot.ini entry. Then from dos you can run either grub.exe or loadlin.exe with the right kernel parameters to start the knoppix iso from either the ntfs or the fat32 partition. But you still need the minirt26_ntfs.gz file to have the bootfrom= to work properly even if you boot from the fat32.
Good Luck, Gilles

[jmort]

ruymbeke,

I recognize your alias from the WinPartition instructions; thus, I assume that you are the one to talk to about this.


Notes: -With Win2000 computers you may add an alternate boot option in the boot.ini file: c:\bootgrub="Start Grub (old method)" -To work with Windows 9x copy GRUB.EXE from "RootOfNTFS" folder to C:\ then edit your CONFIG.SYS file adding the line SHELL=GRUB.EXE (to return to booting to Windows 9x you will have to edit config.sys again as grub.exe will not allow booting to Windows/Msdos AFAIK).


The above is directly from the WinPartition instructions. The link is:
http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition

Now, that was a good question to ask wiith regards to the bootgrub addition to boot.ini. We may be getting somewhere here. The above instructions state that bootgrub is to be added to boot.ini when using *Windows 2000*. Now, I do realize that XP is based off of 2000, but this is not the same as the equivalence of the two operating systems. This leads to further questions. Am I to assume that I am to add bootgrub to the boot.ini file to my XP installation. If this is the case then either one of two things has occurred in regards to the above quoted instructions:

1. In my ignorance, I was supposed to assume that Windows 2000 and XP are interchangeable

2. There is some ambiguity in the above instructions that should be dealt with by anyone who has authorization to do so. For example, adding the specific OS's that the bootgrub addition applies to, beyond Windows 2000, of course. Correcting this omission will save countless hours of searching forums and documentation if it turns out that this does indeed fix my problem.

However, I am quite interested in the thought of booting from DOS on the FAT32 partition, as this sounds fairly simple except for one small issue. Again, this issue may be related to my ignorance, as I am new to this: From my understanding of operating systems beyond Windows Millenium, there is no DOS. Since I am running XP, I am assuming that I do not have DOS. My question is this: Is there something that I am missing from your instructions of booting from FAT32 with DOS? Or do I need to somehow obtain a copy of DOS in order to accomplish this?

Where do I place the files on the FAT32 partition. You mentioned that I only need minirt26_ntfs.gz and grub.exe. Is there a special directory they need to go in or can they go into the root of the FAT32 partition?


Did you just copy the grldr of the grubd.zip into your ntfs root directory and udate your boot.ini ? Did you try the bootgrub entry in the boot.ini (and also copy the bootgrub file) ?

To answer these questions. I copied grldr to c:\ as instructed. I updated the boot.ini so that the last line read: c:\grldr="start grub" as instructed. However, the bootgrub addition was omitted due to one of the above 2 listed reasons.

Sidenotes:
1. There is no grub.exe in my c:\ directory. I am assuming this is ok for the nTFS boot
2. NTFS drives have the ability to be compressed, and I set mine to compress data upon initial install of XP. I only have a 10GB harddrive. One possibility for the compression error is this fact, just in case anyone else is having this problem and feels bold enough to try uncompressing their drive if it is compressed.

Thank you very much for your responses to these questions! I have not only learned a great deal about Knoppix from these forums, but also I have learned a lot in regards to my own operating system! Thanks again!

P.S. I have read enough of the forum to know that you and others have put a ton of your time into this subject, and it is greatly appreciated. So, please understand that I hold everyone in the highest respect. I am merely pointing out areas that need improvement so that others may benefit from this knowledge. It appears that the ruymbeke's file package in the Winpartition link is missing GRUB.EXE, which I believe needs to be in the root directory of NTFS if the c:\bootgrub option is to be used. Thanks again.

[ruymbeke]

...I was supposed to assume that Windows 2000 and XP are interchangeable
Yes and No. The boot principle of XP and 2000 is similar but not identical. Both are using a ntldr and boot.ini file to boot but as far as I know, the ntldr files are actually different. So grldr can be used for XP (bootgrub is actually embedded in the first blocs of grldr) and an alternate bootgrub is required to load grldr for 2000.


... I am quite interested in the thought of booting from DOS on the FAT32 partition... From my understanding of operating systems beyond Windows Millenium, there is no DOS. Since I am running XP, I am assuming that I do not have DOS. My question is this: Is there something that I am missing from your instructions of booting from FAT32 with DOS? Or do I need to somehow obtain a copy of DOS in order to accomplish this?
Yes you can boot from your fat32 partition using either your boot.ini (by adding a d:\="Dos, Win98/ME...") or using grub (and add an entry in your menu.lst like this (assuming that your fat32 is on disk0 partition 1, 0 being ntfs):
title Win 98 from (hd0,1)
chainloader (hd0,1)+1
boot
But before this will work, you shoud obviously have install a dos filesystem in your fat32 partition using the dos sys.com program. You can find a lot of dos boot disk on the net. I actually have the dos files in the Root_Of_USB of my grubd.zip. And the HPUSBFW.EXE program can be used to re-format a usb dongle with the required dos files and also make the dongle bootable, which is not that obvious ! Once booted from the usb dongle, you can sys.com your fat32 partition (I am sorry I did not include the sys.com file in my grubd.zip but here it is: http://s119307663.onlinehome.us/SYS.COM ). BTW, if you do not have a floppy drive you can still use grub and memdisk to boot from a floppy image file (.img or .ima) and format your fat32 from there (see the menu.lst in the \Root_Of_NTFS\BOOT\GRUB directory of my grubd.zip to load win311.img)


... You mentioned that I only need minirt26_ntfs.gz and grub.exe. Is there a special directory they need to go in or can they go into the root of the FAT32 partition?
The location of the kernel and initrd file are defined by the menu.lst file and they can be where ever you like, you just need to update the path. The menu.lst is searched by grub first in /boot/grub then in the root of each partition/drives until one menu.lst can be read and interpreted.


... NTFS drives have the ability to be compressed, and I set mine to compress data upon initial install of XP. I only have a 10GB harddrive. One possibility for the compression error is this fact, just in case anyone else is having this problem and feels bold enough to try uncompressing their drive if it is compressed.
To be honest, I never tried that and I can bet that grub cannot handle this compression at this time. Sorry...
So the best option I can see in your specific case of a compressed ntfs partition would be to boot dos from your fat32 partition (as discussed previously) and from dos you will run grub.exe (or loadlin.exe if you prefer lilo). Even though it looks like a little bit complicated, it works and all this can be executed very fast at boot time.


...It appears that the ruymbeke's file package in the Winpartition link is missing GRUB.EXE, which I believe needs to be in the root directory of NTFS if the c:\bootgrub option is to be used. Thanks again.
No, grub.exe is in the GRUB.BIN directory of my grubd.zip. It is only required to boot from dos. I use it with my usb dongle, boot floppy disk, or from fat16/32 partitions.


Thank you very much for your responses to these questions! I have not only learned a great deal about Knoppix from these forums, but also I have learned a lot in regards to my own operating system! Thanks again!
My pleasure. Hope this will help.
Best Regards, Gilles

[jmort]

Okay, apparently hitting escape in the middle of a post is a bad thing.

Let's try this again...

Gilles,

I think there may be a problem with the link where I got grubd.zip. Was there a time when you went and updated the link because something was missing? If so, could I have gone there by mistake and downloaded a bad version of grubd.zip? I am sorry, but I do not have GRUB.EXE in any of the folders including grub.bin, unless of course GRUB.EXE was renamed to something else??? Also, there are no DOS commands in root_of_usb or any other folder included in the zip.

Don't worry about doing anything more for me just yet, as there are two things I note:

1. From past experience, in order to run a dos command, your DOS version must match the version of the DOS file you are trying to run. Since all I have right now is an XP command prompt, I have a feeling that SYS.COM will not work.

2. Before I make a request for your updated version of grubd.zip, I will first attempt to use an old Windows ME cd to try to accomplish installing DOS, in which case I should have my own copy of SYS.COM. It probably wouldn't hurt to take a peek at the link to the Winpartition install and check out the grubd.zip for missing files, as this could be where the problem lies (again I could have stumbled on a broken link, or someone else may have replaced your file by accident, etc)

http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition

click on ruymbeke's files in the first step and it will prompt you to download grubd.zip. And I will feel really stupid if it turns out they are actually there :D

I'll get back to you. Thanks Gilles for all your help and time on this subject.

James

UPDATE: GILLES I AM SORRY I JUST LOOKED AT THE ZIP AND IT APPEARS THE FILES ARE THERE. I will extract them again. I do not know what I did the first time :D

[jmort]

Update:

Okay, Here is what I have found.

1. I will probably need to reformat my FAT32 partition. Currently, it is formatted as a logical drive because I did not know as much three days ago that I know now. This should not bee a big deal, as nothing is currently on that partition.

2. Windows Millenium has no SYS.COM command and no way to install just DOS from what I could tell. Furthermore, I do not feel comfortable installing ME on a system with a stable copy of XP running. In addition, the SYS.COM file that I must have got from a link on the forum does not work with XP, just as I suspected.

3. There are two options which I am considering.
I. Download a copy of freeDos from the net, install to the FAT32 partition and boot it from the boot.ini file, which by now is a procedure that I am VERY familiar with. From there, hopefully GRUB.EXE will work properly.

II. Substitute LILO for GRUB, which may require more research. It appears that my system does not like grub. I have no clue as to why except for the hypothesis that it is due to the NTFS drive being compressed. Uncompressing it is not an option, as i don't think there is enough space to do so. Has anyone had success using LILO instead of GRUB?? There are other bootloaders I have found on the net, but installing a bootloader is like allowing someone access to the foundation of your home with demolition equipment; thus, I could be setting myself up for failure by using a no-name bootloader. Also, do you think that FreeDOS will substitute well for MS-DOS? In my experience sometimes the free stuff is better than the capitalist stuff.

I think option #I seems simpler, as the procedure involves steps that I am familiar with, whereas LILO is very foreign to me. However, I think I will take the reat of the day off from this stuff and try to accomplish finishing a school project involving the Traveling Salesman Problem and the Edge Assembly Crossover Operator.

Thanks again!
James

[ruymbeke]

... I will probably need to reformat my FAT32 partition...
Why that ? You just need to install a win98se dos system. ME is not really apropriate since msft removed dos from it even though you can put it back, it is some kind of a hack. This is exactly why I suggested you to use a USB dongle: format the usb dongle with the tools I gave you, boot from it, use the sys.com I gave you in the previous link to install the dos 98se into your fat32 from the usb dongle, and now you can use grub.exe to boot various OS, including XP, Linux... But don't even try sys.com from windows. I can make a 98se dos floppy disk boot image if you really need to.


... Download a copy of freeDos from the net, install to the FAT32 partition and boot it from the boot.ini file, which by now is a procedure that I am VERY familiar with. From there, hopefully GRUB.EXE will work properly.
That will work just as good as the win98se dos (dos 7.1 or 7.10), but do not load emm386 before starting grub.


... Substitute LILO for GRUB, which may require more research. It appears that my system does not like grub. I have no clue as to why except for the hypothesis that it is due to the NTFS drive being compressed. Uncompressing it is not an option, as i don't think there is enough space to do so. Has anyone had success using LILO instead of GRUB?...
Well I have spend quite some time with both lilo and grub, and with my experience I like grub much better. Easier to install, to use, and to repair. Grub is much more powerfull (network boot, floppy/disk image boot, cd boot, chainload, ...) Lilo has a lot of limitations but one thing I like with loadlin.exe (lilo for dos) is that it can go back to dos if the boot fails. I have tried a couple of other bootloaders, each one of them have some goods and bads, but grub has my preference.
PS: the ntfs compression is only an issue to start grub from the XP bootloader ntldr. Once grub started from grub.exe via dos boot from your fat32, or from the disk/partition mbr, or from floppy or a usb dongle, grub can start and load everyting except files stored in a compressed ntfs partition, reason why you need to store your kernel, inird and iso file in your fat32 partition. And I can bet that lilo and other bootloaders will suffer the same problem. And btw, grub is the only bootloader I know which is capable to load files (like the kernel) from a (non compressed) ntfs partition.
Regards, Gilles

[jmort]

Gilles,

With regards to my FAT32 partition, it was initially partitioned as a logical drive, and most OS's require that the partition be a primary partition instead of a logical drive on an extended partition.

I have read several articles and documentation on installing DOS/FreeDOS on a system that already contains XP. According to most of this information, DOS can only be installed on the C drive. Other articles claim it can be installed on other drive letters. In my case, my primary FAT32 partition is drive e, and my primary NTFS partition containing XP is drive c.

According to documentation, DOS (well, specifically FreeDOS) can only be installed to a driive that is marked as drive c. however, there are articles where people claim they have had success by "hiding" the partition containing XP. When I booted freedos from floppy, this happened automatically, as DOS can not recognize an NTFS partition. Thus, when booting freedos from floppy, the NTFS drive c was hidden from DOS and instead, the FAT32 partition took its place as the c drive.

booting dos inndependent of XP (such as from the floppy) does not require any access to the nTFS drive; therefore, there is no danger of DOS doing anything to corrupt the NTFS partition.

However, what I see happening if I go through with the install is this:
1. turn on computer - BIOS accesses the primary NTFS partition and loads ntldr (xp bootloader).
2. ntldr looks in boot.ini and finds 2 entries, one for XP and one for DOS.
3. If DOS is selected, ntldr will attempt to boot DOS, this differs from the floppy boot because
the floppy boot never bothered accessing the nTFS partition, therefore there was no drive letter conflict.

My fear is that DOS will attempt to boot using the drive letter c: for the FAT32 partition when the NTFS partition has already been accessed as drive c. I am concerned that there may be some conflict that could result in my drive being corrupted because DOS won't see the fact that the NTFS partition was already assigned drive c and it will assign the FAT32 partition to the drive letter c as well.

Basically it depends on when the drive letters are assigned?? If they are assigned before ntldr is accessed, then I wonder what will happen when DOS finally loads and fails to recognize c as the NTFS, but if somehow the drive letters are assigned by the corresponding OS, then I don't think it will be a problem. I think since boot.ini uses multi(0)disk(0)vdisk(0)partition(1) instead of the actual drive letter, I think the letters are probably assiigned after the start of the boot process. Since you have more experience on this subject than I do, i wanted to hear if these fears are ridiculous or not, and what you suggest I put in the boot.ini file in order to boot DOS. In addition, I have heard that installing DOS after XP will cause the MBR to be overwritten.

What would you suggest? sorry if some of this does sound ridiculous, but there is so much conflicting and ambiguous information out there that I don't know what I should do. Thanks for your patience and for putting up with my long winded posts!

James

[ruymbeke]

With regards to my FAT32 partition, it was initially partitioned as a logical drive, and most OS's require that the partition be a primary partition instead of a logical drive on an extended partition.
This is partially true. Depends on which OS. Dos and Linux do not care, but Windows does...


I have read several articles and documentation on installing DOS/FreeDOS on a system that already contains XP. According to most of this information, DOS can only be installed on the C drive. Other articles claim it can be installed on other drive letters. In my case, my primary FAT32 partition is drive e, and my primary NTFS partition containing XP is drive c.

According to documentation, DOS (well, specifically FreeDOS) can only be installed to a driive that is marked as drive c. however, there are articles where people claim they have had success by "hiding" the partition containing XP. When I booted freedos from floppy, this happened automatically, as DOS can not recognize an NTFS partition. Thus, when booting freedos from floppy, the NTFS drive c was hidden from DOS and instead, the FAT32 partition took its place as the c drive.

booting dos inndependent of XP (such as from the floppy) does not require any access to the nTFS drive; therefore, there is no danger of DOS doing anything to corrupt the NTFS partition.
You are absolutely right. Actually grub (as other bootloaders) allows you to (un)-hide partitions before booting. This may be required in some complicated setups but not in your case. As you wrote, dos boot will only see a single c partition.


However, what I see happening if I go through with the install is this:
1. turn on computer - BIOS accesses the primary NTFS partition and loads ntldr (xp bootloader).
2. ntldr looks in boot.ini and finds 2 entries, one for XP and one for DOS.
3. If DOS is selected, ntldr will attempt to boot DOS, this differs from the floppy boot because
the floppy boot never bothered accessing the nTFS partition, therefore there was no drive letter conflict.

My fear is that DOS will attempt to boot using the drive letter c: for the FAT32 partition when the NTFS partition has already been accessed as drive c. I am concerned that there may be some conflict that could result in my drive being corrupted because DOS won't see the fact that the NTFS partition was already assigned drive c and it will assign the FAT32 partition to the drive letter c as well.

Basically it depends on when the drive letters are assigned?? If they are assigned before ntldr is accessed, then I wonder what will happen when DOS finally loads and fails to recognize c as the NTFS, but if somehow the drive letters are assigned by the corresponding OS, then I don't think it will be a problem. I think since boot.ini uses multi(0)disk(0)vdisk(0)partition(1) instead of the actual drive letter, I think the letters are probably assiigned after the start of the boot process. Since you have more experience on this subject than I do, i wanted to hear if these fears are ridiculous or not, and what you suggest I put in the boot.ini file in order to boot DOS. In addition, I have heard that installing DOS after XP will cause the MBR to be overwritten.
When the DOS system will be loaded, it will re-enumerate the devices and will only know about FAT16/32 partitions, so you should not worry about your ntfs partition at that time. And if you boot from a USB dongle of floppy disk, the system loaded at that time will not understand ntfs either, so it should not write to your ntfs partition. But be carefull, the sys.com do not touch the mbr of your disk, but if you install 98se or me it will for sure erase your mbr and break your xp bootloader. I am not sure about freedos, but you probably want to make a backup if you plan to give it a try. I know that the USB dongle approach works since there is no program writing in the mbr and dos only knows about the fat32 partition, there is no risk to damage anything relative to xp. But If you use large disks, you may be extremely careful, since some bios and obviously dos cannot handle properly disk(s) larger than 132GB (48 bit addressing limitation). Some old bios may even screw up your data on disks larger than 32GB. And some very old bios will even have problem with overlapping data when adressing over a 8, and 2GB lmit ...
So to summarize, to be safe I would avoid any kind of a generic install without a serious backup. In an other hand I feel very comfortable to install a dos system using the sys.com program assuming you have booted on a media already running the dos system you are willing to install. I used the USB dongle several times but your bios needs to support such a boot type. A floppy disk boot is an other good alternaltive. Well, in most cases, if your computer do not have a floppy drive, the bios will support a usb boot. So If you have a recent bios and a USB dongle, you have already everything in your hands to get it to work. Good Luck.
Cheers, Gilles

[jmort]

okay, i think i feel more comfortable attempting this, all the important things are backed up already, so... I think Ill give it a shot.

thank you,
james

[jmort]

Hi again,

Gilles, please forgive me, but I must ask a very stupid question. What do I need to put inn my boot.ini file inn order to get it to boot DOS? Do I need to make changes to the menu.lst in order to run GRUB.EXE? does menu.lst need to be on the E drive or the C drive.

here is my current boot.ini:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn
e:\grldr="Start Grub"
e:\bootgrub="Start Grub (old)"
c:\="DOS from c"
c:\command.com="DOS C Command.com"
e:\="DOS e"
e:\COMMAND.COM="dos e COMMANDCOM"

As you can see, I have attempted to boot dos in 4 different ways, but all of them report errors. The ones involving the C drive say there was a problem reading the device or somethinng along those lines. The two cases with the E drive say a windows dll file is nont found. I believe it is hal.dll. the only executable file that sys.com e: copied was command.com.

thanks again!
james

[ruymbeke]

Hi again,...As you can see, I have attempted to boot dos in 4 different ways, but all of them report errors. The ones involving the C drive say there was a problem reading the device or somethinng along those lines. The two cases with the E drive say a windows dll file is nont found. I believe it is hal.dll. the only executable file that sys.com e: copied was command.com. thanks again! james
Well, I am a little bit confused. Could you please give a little bit of history. What did you do so far ? Did you use a USB dongle (with my setup), a floppy disk (which one) ? Did you use freedos or regular dos ? After using sys.com, you should see io.sys, msdos.sys and command.com (but they may be hidden files). Be aware that io.sys cannot be copied, you have to use sys.com to install it since io.sys need to be stored in a special location of the partition. msdos.sys and command.com can be copied manually. Under xp, what letter is used for your fat32 partition ? Cheers, Gilles

[jmort]

Gilles,

You should congratulate me on my first ever successful dual boot! I've successfully installed FreeDOS Beta 9 service Release 1 on my E: FAT32 primary partition. Both windows xp and Freedos are bootable, and there appears to be no complications! Thank you for your help on this matter. For anyone who is interested in this setup, here is what I did:

Background:
system: Dell Inspiron 3800 Celeron 600mHz processor with 10GB harddrive
partitions: 8GB C: NTFS Windows XP Professional
1GB E: FAT32 FreeDOS Beta 9 Service Release 1

I will not go into the details of resizing partitions as there is plenty of info on this forum and the net in general on this subject. In order for this particular setup to work, the following prerequisites must be met:

1. Windows XP Professional must be installed on the C drive on an NTFS partition.

2. There must be a second FAT32 primary partition created on your system. In my case, this is the E: drive; thus, wherever you see an E:, replace with the corresponding drive letter of your FAT32 partition. (I believe the only way to create a "primary" partition is to right click on My computer -> manage -> disk management. I originally used DISKPART on the Recovery Console and it created a logical drive. While it is possible to boot off of a logical drive according to some sources, the procedure is more complicated.)

3. You must have downloaded the FDOS1440.IMG file, and rawrite.exe from the Freedos.org webpage. furthermore, you must use rawrite in order to create a bootable floppy for FreeDOS. The documentation on freedos.org will explain how to create a bootable FreeDOS floppy from the image file using rawrite. This basically takes only a second or two, just make sure the diskette is formatted with some sort of FAT filesystem.

Link to image file: http://www.freedos.org/freedos/files/
Link to documentation: http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=23401&group_id=18412

FROM XP:
Basically, just Run RAWRITE
Follow the prompts. Tell the program to read from MINI.IMG and to write to A:
(You may need to substitute MINI.IMG with FDOS1440.IMG, or whatever the IMG filename is)

Once the prerequisites have been met, you can move on to the next set of instructions:
Here is a link to some instuctions that I found on the web to help with this installation:
http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/freedos_no_removable.html

The only problem I had was in the INSTALLING section of this link. Please read and familiarize yourself with the instructions.

First, I downloaded the zip archive as instructed: http://marc.herbert.free.fr/FDOS/
Extract the zip to the E: FAT32 partition to the root directory.
Run E:\FREEDOS\SETUP\INSTALL\INSTALL.EXE and follow the prompts. According to the instructions, you want to select the text install and NOT the GUI install. Also, this is the MINI distribution. The prompts should ask you for a source and a target, these are E:\FREEDOS\PACKAGES and E:\FDOS respectively.

NOTE: DO NOT RUN \FDOS\POSTINST.BAT. I have not tried it, but the instructions state to avoid it. You are welcome to try it, but I chose instead to follow the substituted instructions.

The final stp is where I run into trouble. Apparently, sys.com won't work on a machine booted with XP on a FAT32 partition. a FAT16 may work, but not on the FAT32. If this is the case with your machine, use the following substitutions:

Shut down the machine and reboot using the floppy FreeDOS bootdisk.
I chose safemode just to be sure no automated scripts ran.

Type c: <enter> at the a:\ prompt
Type dir <enter> and take note of the files in the directory. Your C drive should now be the FAT32 partition, as FreeDOS will not see your NTFS drive. Do not be concerned. This is exactly what should happen. Instead of typing the commands listed in the final steps of the INSTALLATION section, use these instead:

C:
cd fdos
bin\sys C: C:\FDOSBOOT.BIN BOOTONLY
copy bin\kernel32.sys C:\kernel.sys
(type yes to overwrite if prompted)
cd NLS
set lang=EN
makecmd
copy command.com C:\
(type yes to overwrite if prompted)

Now that this has been completed, take note of the fact that the root now contains a 512 byte file called FDOSBOOT.BIN. Reboot the machine to XP (remove the disk from drive A). Now, follow the remaining instructions regarding editing the boot.ini file titled: Booting FreeDOS. After using attrib -s -h -r boot.ini I would make a backup copy to be safe, as the XP recovery console has no text editor, but you could still copy the backup copy to boot.ini if there is a problem. Your boot.ini file should look like this:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn
C:\FDOSBOOT.BIN="FreeDOS Beta 9 Service Release 1"

Now, you may be asking why the last line starts with a C rather than an E, since we know that FDOSBOOT.BIN is on the FAT32 partition. To eliminate confusion, the XP bootloader is located on the NTFS partition; therefore, you must copy e:\FDOSBOOT.BIN to C:\FDOSBOOT.BIN. Eessentially, once control is passed to FreeDOS, the NTFS C: partition is hidden and FAT32 becomes C:

FDCONFIG.SYS may need to be copied from the root of the floppy to the root of e:\
You also may need to edit FDCONFIG.SYS to comment out everything related to the install. Basically, my FDCONFIG.SYS file just contains:

!SWITCHES=/E
DEVICE=C:\FDOS\BIN\HIMEM.EXE
SHELL=C:\COMMAND.COM /P=C:\autoexec.bat

!DOSDATA=UMB
!DOS=UMB
!FILES=20
!BUFFERS=20
!LASTDRIVE=Z

Note the /P switch, in FreeDOS, the /P switch allows the user to load a batch file to run at
startup. Therefore, it is possible to create a boot menu similar to the one in FDCONFIG.SYS on the floppy disk. In other words, the autoexec.bat file could contain commands to start DOS normally while a BOOTKNOP.BAT file could contain: loadlin.exe @params.txt. Since the details of how to accmomplish this are not important for knoppix, lets move on.

Once FDOSBOOT.BIN has been copied to c:\ you should be good to go. You should be able to boot either Windows XP or FreeDOS.

I think I have hit all the critical points of this install. Now all I have left to do is to configure GRUB on the FAT32 partition to boot KNOPPIX.

Gilles, if there is anything important that you think I may have left out or anything that seems unclear, please let me know so that I may clarify.

James

[ruymbeke]

Gilles, if there is anything important that you think I may have left out or anything that seems unclear, please let me know so that I may clarify. James
You did good since it is working. Congratulation !
FDOSBOOT.BIN is the FreeDOS 512 bytes long partition boot sector. I would just add that at this point you can use either lilo (loadlin.xe) or grub (grub.exe) Both are working pretty well, but I have a preference for grub. Loadlin.exe will return to a dos prompt in case of the boot fails, but grub have a command line shell with auto completion which is very handy. If you use grub, be sure to not load emm386.exe. Since you got freedos now runing from your xp boot loader, you are very close to get knoppix running from the ISO file. Good Luck, Gilles

[jmort]

Okay, the FreeDOS thing is working out quite nicely, considerinnng all the hype about needing to be on the c: partition.

I am not sure how to proceed with the rest of the install. Grub still does not want to load. I have typed in boot.ini: c:\grub.exe e:\grub.exe I have put shell=grub.exe in the config.sys file yet I still can not get Grub to load. Grub says this version of dos is not supported, so I tried loadlin:

loadlin.exe c:\knoppix\k36.iso /dev/ram rw initrd=c:\knoppix\minirt24_ntfs.gz

The error message that this gave was that the file was not a kernel image. I don't know what arguments that I should use, nor do I understand how to boot from the iso on ntfs from dos. What could i I be doing wrong? What do i put in boot.ini to boot grub from the fat32? what is wrong with my loadlin setup?? What's missing?

Thanks again,
james

[ruymbeke]

Okay, the FreeDOS thing is working out quite nicely, considerinnng all the hype about needing to be on the c: partition.
Good. Now after booting (free)DOS on your fat32 partition, do you have a dos prompt: "C:\>" ? I yes did you try to run grub by typing grub.exe [enter] ? Do you get the grub prompt: ">" ? if you press [tab], do you get a list of the commands ?
I a not sure that grub.exe will work with the latest freedos release, I didn't try. I know that there is some issues with some "buggy" versions of freedos. I know that grub.exe is working with the 98se version I included in my grud.zip.
You need to get grub working (list of commands and grub prompt) before you can do anything with the menu.lst.
This has nothing to do with the boot.ini: boot.ini is used to start (free)dos, from the dos prompt you start grub.exe, and if evertything is right, you get the grub shell... Remember no emm386.exe with grub.exe ...


...so I tried loadlin: loadlin.exe c:\knoppix\k36.iso /dev/ram rw initrd=c:\knoppix\minirt24_ntfs.gz
Well, first of all only the latest version of loadlin.exe (1.6C, C is important) will handle compressed linux kernel. Then the syntax is quite different, you may try something like this assuming that loadlin.exe, knoppix...iso, linux26 and the minirt26_ntfs.gz files are in your fat32 (hda2) c:\ root directory (but I didn't try it):
loadlin.exe linux26 -v initrd=minirt26_ntfs.gz ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init lang=us apm=power-off vga=791 nomce quiet bootfrom=/dev/hda2/*.iso noprompt (all in one line from the loadlin.exe)
Good luck, Gilles

[jmort]

Gilles,

We are making progress here. I am sorry to say that grub.exe returned an error: Sorry, only FreeDOS kernel 2032 is supported for grub. It's too bad since almost every school of thought claims that grub is the preferred bootloader. Plus, I am beginning to understand menu.lst and "grubspeak".

That's okay though, as I am making progress with loadlin.exe. I can get it to actually start the boot process!! However, it hangs because it claims it can not find the knoppix filesystem. This was using the following configuration:

linux24 nofirewire noscsi nodma fromhd=/dev/hda1 ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init initrd=minirt~1.gz quiet lang=us vga=normal

*the minirt~1.gz was required for this particular version of dos, the minirt24_ntfs.gz filename was causing issues. Once I renamed the file is when the boot process actually started.

I also added BOOT_IMAGE=k36.iso and still obtain the same results. I have also tried using fromhd=/dev/hda2 (the FAT32) with the same results.

Next, I am going to try using the bootfrom cheatcode as you suggested. I have a feeling that the bootfrom cheatcode is the key to this. If it will not work, then I will atttempt a boot from the knoppix loopback file located on the cd as /knoppix/knoppix.

I'll keep you updated on my progress. Thank you.

james

[ruymbeke]

...We are making progress here. I am sorry to say that grub.exe returned an error: Sorry, only FreeDOS kernel 2032 is supported for grub. It's too bad since almost every school of thought claims that grub is the preferred bootloader. Plus, I am beginning to understand menu.lst and "grubspeak".
This is the reason why I suggested you to use the 98se DOS files in my grubd.zip... (which I know is working fine with grub)


...Next, I am going to try using the bootfrom cheatcode as you suggested. I have a feeling that the bootfrom cheatcode is the key to this. If it will not work, then I will atttempt a boot from the knoppix loopback file located on the cd as /knoppix/knoppix.
Yes, you need to use the "bootfom=" cheatcode and the minirt_ntfs to boot from the iso file. You can use the "fromhd=" cheatcode to boot from the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file and the standard minirt file shoud work as well...
Let me know... Gilles

PS: I just booted knoppix 3.7 and sending this PS after having used the following loadlin.exe command line:
loadlin.exe linux26 -v initrd=minirt~2.gz ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init bootfrom=/dev/hda1/boot/mchp/*big.iso lang=us apm=power-off nomce vga=791 dma quiet noprompt (all on a single line from the loadlin.ex)
It looks like that the end of my long command line is being truncated (dos limitation)...
My setup: hda1 is ntfs and loadlin.exe, linux26 and minirt~2.gz (minirt26_ntfs.gz) is on my fat32 98se DOS partition
Cheers, Gilles

[jmort]

Gilles,

Although I am not celebrating my victory from the knoppix web browser, it is a victory nonetheless, as I have successfully booted to Knoppix v3.6 kernel 2.4 from both the iso file located on my c NTFS drive and also from the knoppix file from the cd which I located on my FAT32 partition.

Here are the configurations for loadlin.exe:

file iso.txt contains the following all on one line:
linux24 nofirewire noscsi nodma vga=normal ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init lang=us apm=power-off nomce quiet bootfrom=/dev/hda1/BOOT/Knoppix.36/*.iso noprompt initrd=minirt~1.gz

This is the command to launch knoppix via loadlin, where iso.txt is the above file containing the arguments. Using the file, DOS will not limit so much the maximum length of the arguments.
c:\knoppix\loadlin.exe @iso.txt

for reference, here is boot.ini:
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn
C:\FDOSBOOT.BIN="FreeDOS Beta 9 Service Release 1"


In this configuration, the iso file was located on the ntfs partition. The linux24 and minirt24_ntfs.gz are located on the FAT32 partition. The system booted just fine, and it even recognized my external cd-r drive! both hda1 and hda2 were mounted. My cdrom drive was available for use and i could view files on both the internal cdrom and the cdr drives. in order to view files on hda2, I had to unmount the device, as it was also linked to the cd rom drive. By unmounting, that problem was corrected. I am assuming there is some sort of config file that I can edit to have it do that automatically. The only real problem was I could not write to the FAT32 partition. The NTFS partition is also write protected, but I think everyone is in agreement that it being read only is a good thing.

I wonder what would happen if I set the initrd=/dev/hda1/BOOT/knoppix.36/minirt24_ntfs.gz AND ALSO in place of linux24 put:
/dev/hda1/BOOT/knoppix.36/linux24
Do you think that the kernel and the minirt24_ntfs.gz file could possibly be run from the NTFS partition instead of the FAT32? Is there anything that could go wrong if I try it?? Could that possibly fix my problem with hda2??

Next, out of curiosity, I copied /knoppix/knoppix from the knoppix cd and tried the following using loopback.txt: (note that these are all on one line)
linux24 nofirewire noscsi nodma bootfrom=/dev/hda2/knoppix/knoppix ramdisk_size=100000 init=/etc/init initrd=minirt~1.gz quiet lang=us vga=normal BOOT_IMAGE=knoppix

and run: loadlin.exe @loopback.txt

the changes are to the bootfrom cheatcode and the addition of BOOT_IMAGE=knoppix
Thus, I was also able to successfully boot from the knoppix file on FAT32. Everything was much the same, except this time the cdrom drive did not work at all; furthermore, I could only access hda2 from the desktop. In root, by typing ls in /mnt/hda2 it only showed an empty directory. I have not been able to experiment with booting the iso from the fat32 or by using the knoppix file in the ntfs partition due to the fact that I have very limited space on my machine as both partitions do not have enough disk space to have both the iso file and the knoppix file. Let me summarize in a table for clarification:

'bootfrom' .................................. 'cdrom' ............................................. 'hda2'

iso file in hda1 .........................accessible .......................read only after unmounting first

iso file in hda2 .............................NO ATTEMPT MADE YET

knoppix file in hda1 ....................... NO ATTEMPT MADE YET

knoppix file in hda2 .................... not accessible .................read only from desktop link

So for now I am going to concentrate on the first configuration: iso file in hda1, as this one does not appear to restrict my devices as much as booting the knoppix file in hda2. For now, I will assume that the restriction was more because of WHERE I was booting from rather than from WHICH FILE I was booting from.

In summary, it appears that I have successfully booted knoppix using Loadlin from FreeDOS instead of GRUB. From here on, I am guessing that gaining 'write' access to hda2(FAT32) will involve modifying cheatcodes and using the bash terminal rather than dealing with bootloader specifics. In addition, I am pleased to note that when running KNOPPIX from the hard drive, it is extremely fast in comparison to running from the CD.

Gilles, thank you once again for helping me navigate my way through the troubled waters of knoppix hard drive installs, dos installs, and bootloader configurations. If you have any further advice for fixing my hda2 read-write problem I would be glad to hear it. Plus, if I can be of any help with anything, let me know.

James

[ruymbeke]

I am glad to see that you got it working.

...Do you think that the kernel and the minirt24_ntfs.gz file could possibly be run from the NTFS partition instead of the FAT32? Is there anything that could go wrong if I try it?? Could that possibly fix my problem with hda2??
Well, it looks like that the linux ntfs driver can read data from a ntfs compressed partitions but grub cannot... yet... (and lloadlin.exe for sure cannot). So I really doubt that it will work, but in an other hand I don't think that it would be risky to try it.
About your hda2 problem, the partition where you have your iso or knoppix boot file will be read only, and you need to use tricks to remount it as read/write (cf man mount, -o rw, bind options, ...). But in your case, the iso file is on your ntfs partition and this actually even better to have this one as read only. Now by default all partitions are mounted as read only, but you should be able to remount hda2 as rw without any trouble. As far as I remember, the fact that the kernel and initrd are loaded from hda2 or from some other media shouldn't matter. Try mount -o remount ... and read the man page: (man mount).
Good luck, Gilles

[jmort]

Hmmm, well, I created a 100mb persistent home on the FAT32 partition. knoppix created a 100mb image file on that partition that stores my home files. Also, I edited /etc/fstab and added a 'rw' to the /dev/hda2 vfat partition. Now, everytime I boot up hda2 is automatiically mounted as read/write. I'm not sure if it was because of editing fstab or because the home directory is located on that partition, but in either case, that works for me.

Kmix keeps opening on its ownn when I boot up. I do not know what is causing this, and I have looked all over for a way to control this. Any ideas?

My Iomega predator CD-RW burner is listed as a CDROM. It reads disks, and I have not attempted to burn any, but what would need to be done to get KNOPPIX to recognize the device as a CD-RW?

Most importantly, I have no Internet access. The Info center under the system menu shows my DSL modem lisited as a USB1.1 device, but whenever I try to run the configs it does not recognize the modem. It is an ARESCOM USB NetDSL 800 provided by my DSL provider Quest/MSN. Essentially, having Internet access is of a higher priority than any of my other issues, as being "CONNECTED" in Knoppix will enable me to actually use that OS more often and really explore its capabilities.

Thanks for the help!!

(Also, should I start a new thread for the above issues since they don't relate to booting KNOPPIX or should I simply continue the current thread???)

James

[ruymbeke]

...Also, should I start a new thread for the above issues since they don't relate to booting KNOPPIX or should I simply continue the current thread??? James
I am not sure to be the best person to help you for these new issues, and you should probably start a new thread... Have fun with knoppix ! Cheers, Gilles