ManPages in Knoppix 4.0

[winsnomore]

I just installed knoppix 4.0 .. looks great but I found (or unfound) that all the manpages are missing.

There is manpage-de package available for chapter 1 etc. (and for other languages .. but English !!!!)

There are manpages and manpages-dev packages, but these are expressly for things not coverd by the base manpage (called upstream package)..


Can anyone help ?

[Harry Kuhman]

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16574

[winsnomore]

Harry .. I am missing something
I do know how to install pacakges ..
Knoppix-4.0 is -DE version .. you can do lang=us and use it
Hoever but the manpages are NOT provided for English and I can't find them anywhere ..

If there is a specific article that addresses it, I would appreciate it. .. the link you pointed out is a generic one on how to use the forum, and frankly I thought I did post it in the "right" section.

[UnderScore]

Welcome! You are the first true support request in regards to Knoppix 4.0 DVD.

Did you read http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Hd_Install_HowTo and note that installing Knoppix to HD may break something & is not recommended. Your post belongs in HD install & not in general.

I must say that I do not understand "There are manpages and manpages-dev packages, but these are expressly for things not coverd by the base manpage (called upstream package).."

Please let us know what happens when you type:
man tar
man gzip
man gcc
man ls
man cp
man bzip2

If it is just a packaging issue then:
apt-get update
apt-get install manpages

[Harry Kuhman]

Knoppix is a live CD. If you insist on installing it and what to discuss how to install packages with a installed to hard disk Knoppix enviroment (which will be much different than just installing packages in Debian, since Knoppix is a mix of releases), you would be much better served by discussing it in the forum set up for discussion of Knoppix problems after installing to a hard drive (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=5).

[winsnomore]

Well, Harry I think the problem may be general and applicable to both .. live as well as hard install.
Live is fine, but if you really like the thing ..why not install it !!!

Thanks for the welcome UnderScore ..

This is my first Knoppix and I like what I have seen so far .. except this problem :-((

The package list provided (by both synaptic and kpacagemanager) .. contains only manpage-?? (almost all except English !!!)
the manpage and manpage-dev are really by Debian folks trying to add some POSIX stuff .. and nothing on chap. 1/2/3/4/5
(of course this is all the repositories are holding .. that's why I asked the question here)


man vi
results in :
>.No manual entry for vi
> See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available.

Info was also broken, I did reinstall the package .. it also is pretty broken still ... but I don't use it so I really don't care about it.

I noticed that it installed links in /usr/doc to /usr/share/doc .. but all the link are broken .. actually it didn't even create the /usr/share/doc directory.
I installed manpage .. and that created the /usr/share/doc .. but the rest of chap 1/2/3/4/5/8 is all missing .. and there is scant litlle info.on where to get the English package

I think these problems are because the base package is masterd for -DE I was just hoping to get some direction from folks with more experience on this .. I am pretty sure it has happend before !!

[Harry Kuhman]

but if you really like the thing ..why not install it !!!
Because it wasn't intended to be installed. It is a mix of different releases of Debian that work well as intended from the CD. But after "installing" things frequently break. And they really get messed up if you try to update anything, a result of the mix of the different Debian releases that have been tested to work together on the CD but are known to break if you update. Plus all the problems of the install being sloppy and not getting things like permissions right (search through the froums for a while and look at how many times people post about a network card that worked fine from CD but stopped working as soon as Knoppix was installed to hd. This one problem has been going on for over two years, the fix is apparently simple, but the people who promote installing Knoppix to HD never bother to fix the scripts). The HDD install forum has more problems posted in it than any other forum except the catch all "general forum" and many of the problems posted in the General Forum, the networking forum and others are actually HDD problems.

If you want to install it, go ahead. But if you promote others doing the same, give them fair warning of what they are letting themselves in for, not a why not install it quip. And when you do have problem after installing it, if the problems can not be duplicated on the CD, post those problems in the HDD forum.

[winsnomore]

Harry .. I am new to Knoppix, your point is well taken regarding such issues.

However, I am yet to come across ANY linux distro that doesn't have warts .. all need fair amount of work to get them to do what you "expect" .. so you fix it all and then the next release comes, and you are back at it again.

I will double check and post, but as I said before, this problem most likely is in both live-cd and hd-install.

[Harry Kuhman]

Linux isn't perfect. But you don't have to complicate it by installing a version that was made for Live CD but is known to have problems when installed to hard drive. You asked why not install, I posted back my response.

I don't know if installing to the hard disk is related to the man page issue or not. I have never installed Knoppix and have no plans to, so I have no way to check. If the install doesn't copy something over properly or doesn't set the premissions right then it's a hard disk issue. If it's also a problem on the CD then I'm hard pressed to understand why you prefixed your question about a statement about installing it. If the problem exists on the CD then then it would be better to not confuse the issue by starting the conversation about a hard disk install.

[eco2geek]

The post may be in the wrong part of the forum, but installing Knoppix to hard disk and dealing with the consequences is not that big a deal, especially with later versions. Knoppix 3.9 took a dist-upgrade with no problem.

Anyway, I'm running the live 4.0 DVD using the "lang=us keyboard=us" cheatcodes, and the (English) man pages are all there.

[UnderScore]

Harry .. I am new to Knoppix, your point is well taken regarding such issues.

However, I am yet to come across ANY linux distro that doesn't have warts .. all need fair amount of work to get them to do what you "expect" .. so you fix it all and then the next release comes, and you are back at it again.

I will double check and post, but as I said before, this problem most likely is in both live-cd and hd-install.This is purely a personal opinion & does not reflect the official opinion of Knoppix.net nor does it reflect the opinion of the Knoppix developers. The great majority of this post was not actually written in response to you but in response to tens of other people who intend to install to the HD. I include it all here because it is all pertinent.

Do you realize that Knoppix 4.0 is a brand new release that perhaps 99.99% of all the people here (including myself & all the moderators) are not able to test it prior to its release? I even asked Klaus Knopper himself, but it was too late, the DVD ISO had been finalized & shipped to the DVD duplication service. We know that every release brings new changes, features & bugs. That is to be expected. However, a HD install and all the problems that it brings is both NOT NORMAL Knoppix & NOT truly Debian.

My recommendation is based on the multitude of problems I see in the forums. I believe beginning Linux users or newbies should not install Knoppix to the hard drive. I also must mention that yes Knoppix is based off of Debian, but Debian developers, mentors & helpers do not consider a Knoppix hard drive install to be truly Debian. Thus, they will not attempt to support a Knoppix installed HD system.

A car is not designed for a good night of sleep. You can sleep in a car but unless you are dead tired, it is something that probably should not be done. Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done. Or in other words, a hammer is a good hammer but make a poor knife.

There are email mailing lists, howto guides, & forums where people are telling others that a Knoppix HD install is OK for newbies. I feel that they may not be fully informed and may cause more problems that they fix. A Knoppix install on a HD is very difficult to administrate, add/remove software & get new drivers. Some may feel that they can deal with the oddities & the quirks, but if it were all easy, then why are there so many people with problems after a HD install. A Knoppix HD install will most likely break something, usually networking. A perfect real example of such is this topic within the past week: http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19522 "Help please - how do I install a ethernet card driver???" Read that quickly & you will realize that we had to support this user with way more technical geeky commands than you would normally find in a HD install of a normal distro.

A couple reasons why you should believe me over someone else on some other forum or mailing list. I realize that you don't know me from any other guy so I will explain my opinions further. I try to be humble & not mention it, but I am a Linux & Unix systems administrator employed at one of the top 4 software companies in the world (hint: not microsoft). I have used Unix since 1995 & Linux since 1996 when I first used RedHat and ended up destroying my Win95 partition. I know Knoppix. No, I really know knoppix. I wrote a HOWTO on making your custom own Knoppix CD: "HOWTO: Remaster the easy way using menu based scripts (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13867). I reviewed "Knoppix Hacks" (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/knoppixhks/reviews.html) for NewsForge.com (http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/11/11/1843238). I gave a talk on knoppix customizing & remastering at my local Linux User Group (http://lilug.org/minutes/20050510.html), LILUG (http://lilug.org/index.html). You can find my OpenOffice slide, a PDF, and even a ISO download of the custom knoppix CD 3.8.1 that I made.

So who cares about my opinion on whether or not Knoppix should be installed to the HD. What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport. See also these Debian mailing list posts about knoppix.
2004
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/02/msg01452.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/02/msg01494.html

2005
http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2005/02/msg00203.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2005/02/msg00208.html

It is my opinion, that if new user want a boot from CD drive then they should use a Debian based live CD like Knoppix. If they want to install Knoppix to the HD (which is really a modified Debian) then skip Knoppix & install Debian 3.1 (released Mon June 6). If they want a pre-configured user-oriented desktop PC, not server, distro based on Debian then use Ubuntu (GNOME desktop) or Kubuntu (KDE desktop) or see RedHat backed Fedora Core 4 (released June 13). If they want a real noob friendly desktop Debian based distro & are willing to pay a small yearly price for support & software updates then they can use Linspire.

Debian 3.1r0a is a total of 14 CDs or 2 DVDs. The 14 CD set is every package in the Debian stable respository, about 9000 packages. Which is way more that you or I will ever need. CD #1 has the most common packages on it. From CD 1 you can install a basic desktop (both KDE & GNOME) or setup a basic server. For those folks constrained by a slow internet connection, then I would recommend either only 1 or just CDs 1 & 2. I have read Debian developers ranked the most popular/frequently installed packages & then build each CD from that lists. This means that the average user will find it very unlikely to ever need a package from CDs 5-14.

The following is a couple days old but is still appropriate. It is my install log of Debian 3.1r0a.
Executive Summary: If you need a desktop system install CD & will not be doing sysadmin setups of servers or less popular programs then CD#1 is all you will need. Total time 36 minutes to install both KDE & GNOME as desktop Debian system. You can follow along by using this gallery from OSDir.com http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=361&slide=1

I started at 1:30pm Eastern & a test PC (Pent III 833MHz, 384 MB RAM, 32x CDROM, 20 GB HD, hda1 is windows NTFS, hda2 is a ext3, hda3 is swap) with CD 1 of Debian 3.1r0a, 650MB (Debian sarge). I used the boot prompt cheat code linux26 to force it to install the 2.6 kernel. Both 2.4 & 2.6 are included but the 2.4 kernel is used by default.

The hard drive partitioner is not as easy as qtparted or as easy as Suse/Redhat/Mandrake. In the menu I selected the manual partition entry. The I selected hda2. I told it to use it (by default it will not use existing data partitions so that the existing partitions are safe from accidental erasure). I told it to use ext3fs and use it as the root partition. By default it found the hda3 swap partition & automatically set it to be formatted as swap. Once I was sure, I confirmed by partition choices & it formatted the partitions & began installing the base packages. After it finishes the base packages, it will ask to install grub to either the MBR or the first sector of the root partition. It applys grub to the system & then ejects the CD & reboots the system.

Now it boots of the installed base system & brings up a welcome screen. At this point I put CD 1 back in the drive. I confirm my choices for clock, timezone, root passwd, add a new user with passwd. Then it will scan the CD for the package lists as it is building a new dpkg lists for the system. It will ask if I have another CD. I respond No. Next it automatically uses apt-get to connect to the Debian security updates at security.debian.org. Then it will quickly load a package from CD & bring up another menu. This one allows me to select what package categories to install. Choices are Deskto enviornment, Web server, Print server, DNS server, File server, Mail server, SQL database, manual package selection.

I choose only the Desktop environment. It tells me it has found 329MB of packages from the archives (the CD) & will after unpacking will use 936MB. The next screens are to select the video hardware & configure the X server. In some cases the HW autodetection routines will automatically pickup all the details. On other systems with different HW, it will not, and you will have to choose the right X drivers etc. After this it will do the standard dpkg "selecting foobar" "Unpacking foobar".
Right now it is 1:56pm and the dpkg system is still setting up the packages. At 2:01pm it brings up a menu for choosing the style of email delivery. This menu is way too confusing for newbies. It defauts to local delivery; not on a network & that is what I choose. It now prompts for the username or the person to receive the root & postmater mail. I choose real-root. Then it tells me that everything is done & thanks for choosing Debian. I hit OK & it brings up gdm & then displays a GNOME login screen. I login as the user I created: james. It loads up a Debian styled GNOME 2.8 desktop. I go to actions, logout, hit OK to confirm. Back at the login screen. This time I go to the Session menu & choose KDE. I login as james & it asks me if I want to make KDE the default dekstop. I click "Make Default". It loads up the KDE personalizer. USA & English are already selected as county & language. All the choices are really subjective so I choose what makes me happy. It then loads up KDE 3.3.2.
Time is 2:06pm.
Total time 36 minutes to install both KDE & GNOME as desktop Debian system.

[UnderScore]

I just tested the man command while booting from the DVD. I am using Knoppix 4.0 under VMWare Workstation 4.5 since I do not have a DVD burner to make a real DVD.


'man ls' & 'man vi' works when booting from the DVD.
'man ls' & 'man vi' fails after Knoppix 4.0 boots from a HD install.
I removed manpages-de, manpages-dev & manpages. I then reinstalled manpages and it still fails.

This only confirms my belief that in most cases a HD install will break something.

[Harry Kuhman]

This only confirms my belief that in most cases a HD install will break something.
Thanks for the confirmation James. I thought it was a HD instll problem too, as unlikely as that seems, since that seemed to be the point winsnomore was making in his first post. After he protested I wasn't as sure (am waiting for the officail release of 4.0 myself, I'm not in any rush). Now that we have comfirmation that this is a hard disk install issue, this thread clearly belongs in the hdd install forum (almost hate to do that with your eloquent and detailed post above though, it's clear that most people who install Knoppix to hard disk never even bother to look at the hdd install forum.) I'll leave it here for the evening for the sake of anyone who has been following it, will move it tomorrow if some other moderator doesn't beat me to it.

[eco2geek]

With all respect to UnderScore, his knowledge, and the time he takes to contribute to this board, and speaking as a home user who just likes to dink around with Knoppix for hours on end, I would like to disagree with him. (Yes, I do care about his opinion.)

I would not discourage anyone, newbie or not, from installing Knoppix to hard drive. (Although I might encourage them to install Kanotix instead.) You just need to know what you might be in for and go in with your eyes open. The more "plain vanilla" your hardware, the fewer problems you'll have.


Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done.

In May of last year, I attempted to install "pure" Debian. I didn't know a lot about how to do it, and, as you can read, it didn't turn out well (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9759). However, installing Knoppix worked just fine. After my unsuccessful attempt to install Debian, I simply reinstalled Knoppix.

Here, then, are some pluses to installing Knoppix:
Even without learning the mysteries of editing the installer's configuration file (".knofig") by hand, the installer is straightforward
Hardware configuration is largely done for you. You will probably have to run the "Network card configuration" script to enable networking, and may have to manually clean up /etc/fstab, but that's about it.
Full-featured distro, with most of the essential packages you'd want, pre-installed, that takes up less than 5GB (if you install from the CD)
A group of people willing and able to answer questions, in this very forum
It's an interesting, fun, and educational experience

Since last May, I've installed Debian and upgraded to Sid a couple of times. Earlier this week I downloaded the new Sarge. It was quite easy to install, the only "gotchas" being that it stopped recognizing the DVD just prior to installing the base system, and I had to back up a couple of steps; and I had to "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" after installation in order to get my desired screen resolution. After that, it was just a matter of intalling a few things (most importantly, kdm) and grabbing "sources.list" off my Kanotix partition, commenting out the Kanotix-related entries, and doing a dist-upgrade. Pretty easy.

But...the Knoppix installer is still arguably easier for newbies to understand and use than the Debian (or Ubuntu) installer (if you're not planning on using more than a swap and a root partition, anyway).


What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport.
And how well do they treat newbies asking questions about "pure" Debian? I'd ask a Debian question here in the Lounge before I went to #debian to get my nose chopped off.

If man pages don't work after a hard disk install of Knoppix 4.0, that doesn't mean it's unwise to install it. It simply means that the Knoppix authors have a bug to fix before they release the next version.

[UnderScore]

To winsnomore, please understand that I want you to have a easy no-frustration HD install. Past releases have proven that something always breakson a HD install. Now in this release, we have seen that a minor problem exists. Since we aren't the developers or beta testers, we have very little if any pre-warning of possible breaks in the HD install.


With all respect to UnderScore, his knowledge, and the time he takes to contribute to this board, and speaking as a home user who just likes to dink around with Knoppix for hours on end, I would like to disagree with him. (Yes, I do care about his opinion.)A disagreement? COOL! :) i think we disagree less & really agree more. We just have different mindsets.


I would not discourage anyone, newbie or not, from installing Knoppix to hard drive. (Although I might encourage them to install Kanotix instead.) You just need to know what you might be in for and go in with your eyes open. The more "plain vanilla" your hardware, the fewer problems you'll have.


Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done.

In May of last year, I attempted to install "pure" Debian. I didn't know a lot about how to do it, and, as you can read, it didn't turn out well (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9759). However, installing Knoppix worked just fine. After my unsuccessful attempt to install Debian, I simply reinstalled Knoppix.

Here, then, are some pluses to installing Knoppix:
Even without learning the mysteries of editing the installer's configuration file (".knofig") by hand, the installer is straightforward
Hardware configuration is largely done for you. You will probably have to run the "Network card configuration" script to enable networking, and may have to manually clean up /etc/fstab, but that's about it.
Full-featured distro, with most of the essential packages you'd want, pre-installed, that takes up less than 5GB (if you install from the CD)
A group of people willing and able to answer questions, in this very forum
It's an interesting, fun, and educational experience

Since last May, I've installed Debian and upgraded to Sid a couple of times. Earlier this week I downloaded the new Sarge. It was quite easy to install, the only "gotchas" being that it stopped recognizing the DVD just prior to installing the base system, and I had to back up a couple of steps; and I had to "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" after installation in order to get my desired screen resolution. After that, it was just a matter of intalling a few things (most importantly, kdm) and grabbing "sources.list" off my Kanotix partition, commenting out the Kanotix-related entries, and doing a dist-upgrade. Pretty easy.

But...the Knoppix installer is still arguably easier for newbies to understand and use than the Debian (or Ubuntu) installer (if you're not planning on using more than a swap and a root partition, anyway).I get it. For me, its a recommendation. I give a long wordy & somewhat scary recommendation but it is only a recommendation.

Having worked as front-line telephone support (about 3500 calls a year), in a university gym as a trainer & monitor, in a Chinese restruant as a To-Go paper-bag packer, as a busboy in an upscale Italian restruant, and retail in Wal-Mart electronics, I feel that I have benefitted from years of being around normal everyday people. This is a generalization based on some truth: many everyday people or new Knoppix users are not us & they do not want to be us. It iss not that they don't have the capacity to read a guide & tinker with a PC. I'm sure they do & I would be lying if I said that new users are dumb & annoying. New users are AWESOME & they are the lifeblood of the next generation of Linux users.

The everyday person or new Knoppix user, when bound up in a some kind of technical problem does not care about the technical details since they ultimatly want one thing: They want it (whatever it is) to work. I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt & I will solve their problem to the best of my ability. I will also try to educate them & if I have some advanced foreknowledge of the twists & turns that life might bring them, then I will let them know. In regards to newbie users, if I can lead past the hidden landmines of a HD install by suggesting that they don't do it, then I will but I will also suggest an alternative. If any new user is outside of that sterotype & is willing to give their technical skills a challenge, then a Knoppix HD install might be exactly what they were looking for. If they are further inclinded to learn more I can recommend that they try Gentoo or Linux From Scratch as they are the absolute best ways to figure out how & why Linux works.

I see new users as a huge surplus resource & I see gentle experienced users as a scarce resource. There is not enough of us knowledgable people who care about new users as compared to the sheer number of incoming new users. The demand is greater than the supply. Practically all articles, HOWTOs, emails, chats, guides, reviews of Knoppix are directed at non-guru new users & suggest that installing Knoppix to the HD is OK. They gloss over the negatives & never mention the problems that people are going to have.

This might fly in the face of some people & yes it is a generalization: New users typically embrace Linux/Knoppix in hopes of accomplishing a task such as surf, check email, edit a JPG, listen to music. They don't care so much about software freedom. They don't care so much of the technical details as to why Knoppix/Linux is so good. They want to do something & they want it now. Me, on the other hand, I LOVE to experiment & I probably have installed/reinstalled a Linux distro about 10 times a week for the last 3 years. No matter how much I hope the following statement is not true, I believe that most users do not ever want to be like me. This is where distros like Linspire & Xandros (and in many ways Ubuntu) come in because they are designed & cater to the both non-techical new user & the non-techical long-term user. Those pluses of Knoppix that you mentioned are really good. I feel that same way you feel about Knoppix installs for _myself_. But I fear (watch out, yet another generalization) most users don't want a forced educational experience via editing the fstab to fix the cdrom mounts or editing the /etc/modules-2.6.11 file to force loading of the NIC driver module.

So these new users are looking to accomplish something easy & are lead to believe that a HD install is easy. The truth: IT IS EASY. Too easy because when something goes wrong, new posts appear in the forums & it is up to us volunteers to fix their problems & not the folks that suggested to them to install Knoppix. Purely my opinion, but I see the all outside articles, HOWTOs, emails, chats, guides, reviews that suggest newbies do a Knoppix install are passing the buck. They are passing the support buck and the buck is passed to Knoppix.net. It is up to us, even if we disagree, to either accept what they pass to us or not not accept it. So in my view, the buck stops here.



What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport.
And how well do they treat newbies asking questions about "pure" Debian? I'd ask a Debian question here in the Lounge before I went to #debian to get my nose chopped off.

If man pages don't work after a hard disk install of Knoppix 4.0, that doesn't mean it's unwise to install it. It simply means that the Knoppix authors have a bug to fix before they release the next version.Until we nail down the the fact that a Knoppix 4.0 HD install does not break anything major, I will continue to warn people about the problems of the HD install & will recommend to not install it. V4.0 is too new for me to recommend installation & perhaps after other people chime in with their results I can give it my approval.

Thank you eco2geek, as this dialog has compelled me to do more. Perhaps my recommendation is scary or harsh. I will attempt to be more friendly & less scary. I will also write up a HOWTO install Debian 3.1 as an alternative to installing Knoppix. I will probably have a rough draft ready by Sunday evening.

As of right now, I have no idea how to fix broken manpages. Anyone else got some tips for what I can do?

[winsnomore]

Hey guys ..let's not go too far into the far side.

I was off entertaining a few visitors .. I am back and am happy again.

I was just asking a simple question, I get it: don't bitch about HD install issues, I wasn't .. and I won't .. of all the linux distro's I have tried, this one I don't passiionately dislike .. ok .. it has problems .. I fixed them ..now I have manpages .. and I fixed the stupid coloring of vi .. so there.

Yes manpages work from live-DVD .. but they didn't from HD .. so I copied the darn thing and will move on.

Underscore you sound a lot like a sysadmin I used to know (but on the other side of hudson in a "rining" phone company research office)

But this has gone on for too long, I am sorry for that ..

I don't think this issue should be relegated to the HD section, we have had so much fun ... but that' me.
and I surely don't agree with the idea that this is a live cd and should not be installed .problems can be fixed though there are some distro's that are evil and I won't want to fix their "horried" "warts" :-))

BTW I did think plain Debian once again .. but Knoppix has everything that I really like so why bother.


cheers.

[UnderScore]

Hey guys ..let's not go too far into the far side.

I was off entertaining a few visitors .. I am back and am happy again.Heh, sometime I geek out too much. I guess these postings is good evidence of that.

I was just asking a simple question, I get it: don't bitch about HD install issues, I wasn't .. and I won't .. of all the linux distro's I have tried, this one I don't passiionately dislike .. ok .. it has problems .. I fixed them ..now I have manpages .. and I fixed the stupid coloring of vi .. so there.

Yes manpages work from live-DVD .. but they didn't from HD .. so I copied the darn thing and will move on.

Underscore you sound a lot like a sysadmin I used to know (but on the other side of hudson in a "rining" phone company research office)

But this has gone on for too long, I am sorry for that .. Don't be sorry about it. As long as you are happy with how everything turned out then I am happy too. As for vi, do you like the coloring or is it that you don't like the coloring. As for myself, most of the time I don't need it but other times it is a true joy to have synatx coloring.


I don't think this issue should be relegated to the HD section, we have had so much fun ... but that' me.
and I surely don't agree with the idea that this is a live cd and should not be installed .problems can be fixed though there are some distro's that are evil and I won't want to fix their "horried" "warts" :-)) If you are so inclined & if you have the time please post in The Lounge a rant or two about the distros you don't like. I want to know what other people's experiences are so I can learn from them.
Thanks,
James

[winsnomore]

Underscore .. thanks for the kind comments.
I really think the guys doing the kde konsole schema and the colors for directory & vi much either be color blind or far too young to have any real usable neurons. or evil emacers :-))

I can't see who came up with most of the default choices .. no one can see it .. so I this is the first thing I have to do to every distro .. I have my colors for shell but vi .. that's really coooky

anyways I will post some rants soon enough.

[knopnoob2005]

Harry .. I am new to Knoppix, your point is well taken regarding such issues.

However, I am yet to come across ANY linux distro that doesn't have warts .. all need fair amount of work to get them to do what you "expect" .. so you fix it all and then the next release comes, and you are back at it again.

I will double check and post, but as I said before, this problem most likely is in both live-cd and hd-install.Mepis has very few warts.I installed knoppix on my hard drive and there was very few problems the main one was that when I installed I chose to do the exact cd and not the debian (I installed the beginner way and my sound card wasnot detected...right away I reinstalled using the non debian install)When the install was done everything worked fine,except I couldn`t access root the normal way(I had no idea what the password was)when I installed ,copying the cd exactly,it loaded with no user sign in stuff.I had no way to get a root password in.To access root all I had to do was open a root shell under the penguin and away I went.the other problem was that i could not download some programs that I needed to watch incrypted dvd`s.not from apt-get or from kpackage and not from synaptic package manager(I got it from apt-get)I tried for a few hours to get the dvd player going but no way with out libdvdcss2.Anyone know how to get libdvdcss2,libdvdread3,libdvdplay0,dvdrip,dvdbacku p on your box via Kpackage or Synaptic package manager?If I knew how to do that I would put it back on my hard drive and test it out some more(I re-installed mepis 3.3 as I like to watch dvd`s if I feel like it)...HELP?? :? :?

[winsnomore]

use xine to play dvd's. that works like a charm .. the ui could be better, but heck it s usable.

I am told mplayer plays everything but it's never available with any debian distro by default.

regarding mepis having few warts .. I agree, but there are issues with it .. and those have to do with debian .. the javavm one major hassle.
Other reason I moved to knoppix 4.0 is that they DID pick most of the new software .. kde 3.4 for one, and open office 2.0 beta.
I hate to constantly having to download install newer stuff after loading a new distro .. so knoppix is excellent .. has tons more software than mepis or fc or suse .. etc.

[knopnoob2005]

use xine to play dvd's. that works like a charm .. the ui could be better, but heck it s usable.

I am told mplayer plays everything but it's never available with any debian distro by default.

regarding mepis having few warts .. I agree, but there are issues with it .. and those have to do with debian .. the javavm one major hassle.
Other reason I moved to knoppix 4.0 is that they DID pick most of the new software .. kde 3.4 for one, and open office 2.0 beta.
I hate to constantly having to download install newer stuff after loading a new distro .. so knoppix is excellent .. has tons more software than mepis or fc or suse .. etc.Hello...thanks for the reply.I was using xine(With mepis and it worked fine) but when I loaded the knoppix 3.9 on my drive something came up while booting that said my 'DMA' was not enabled.I'm not sure,but does that have something to do with dvd play?would that be the reason for libdvdcss2 not having a 'candidate' to go to when I tried to download it?I want to give knoppix another try,guess I'll wait for 4.0 to be available on one of the mirrors.As for Mplayer,that came with dvd rip and it works fine.I like xine a bit better tho.Actually I don't care what it is called as long as it plays the dvd's.When I get the 4.0 am I going to have to update my repositories before I can download libdvdcss2 and such,or is it all in the new knoppix?Thanks for the mail...kerry :D

[ted142]

Hello,
Not totally new to Linux flavors, and toyed with a few variants of Knoppix, but...

I like the "safety" of a live CD but the speed of HD access. The new unionfs is great. Is it possible to copy an image of the Live CD into a read-only partition and tell any boot loader to look for the CD image there? I'm thinking of two partitions-one for the safe files, one for the usual saved configuratiion and programs I'm "testing" but don't want them to affect my "happy with it" version. Does this make sense?

And I know USB is faster, but I dont want a dongle dangling where it can get damaged. Maybe just mounting an iso image is possible, but I'd like the guarantee that any old crap that I happen to be messing things up with invariably has ZERO access to my "happy with it " image/partition/CD.

Hope it makes sense and I'm not missing something obvious...

thanks

[|enouf|]

Hello,
Not totally new to Linux flavors, and toyed with a few variants of Knoppix, but...

I like the "safety" of a live CD but the speed of HD access. The new unionfs is great. Is it possible to copy an image of the Live CD into a read-only partition and tell any boot loader to look for the CD image there? I'm thinking of two partitions-one for the safe files, one for the usual saved configuratiion and programs I'm "testing" but don't want them to affect my "happy with it" version. Does this make sense?

And I know USB is faster, but I dont want a dongle dangling where it can get damaged. Maybe just mounting an iso image is possible, but I'd like the guarantee that any old crap that I happen to be messing things up with invariably has ZERO access to my "happy with it " image/partition/CD.

Hope it makes sense and I'm not missing something obvious...

thanks

Certainly ;)

notes/disclaimer; I have done this on a HDD that was FAT32 formatted and ext2 and ext3 only -- NTFS may have some other issues -- for NTFS see http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition and look around these forums nad the Wiki http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/

Anyway;
using ext2 or ext3 isa "much" better solution to using FAT32, since FAT32 does NOT have the ability to store "ownership/permissions" of Users (Metadata) -- this is extremely necessary to have a "properly" working persistent /home directory.

There's a bit of a catch22 to this -- you can boot from LiveCD and use QTParted - or use cfdisk to create, move, resize partitions...I used Qtparted and made myself (2 partitions) - an ext3 partition of ~8GB. Later, after booting to it, I made a Persistent Home Dir. (PHD) on that ext3 partition of about 1GB ...I also made a separate /swap partition of 1.5GB (I only made it that big, b/c of small amt of RAM, and if wanting to burn CDs or DVDs, thought I may need that much space...usually 512-1024 is more than adequate for /swap).

Boot from LiveCD and enter the cheatcode;


knoppix tohd=/dev/hdaX


Typical IDE interface has 2 Channels (each with 2 Devices capable) for a total of 4 devices - hence --> hda, hdb, hdc, hdd <--hda is 1st HDD, hdb the 2nd HDD, etc

'X' is a numbered partition of each HDD -- hda1 is 1st partition on 1st HDD (then 5,6,7,8 are the Logicals, "if" an Extended partition exists with Logical Drives.

If not each HDD can have up to 4 Primary [or 3 Primary + 1 Extended partition] -- this is where hda2, hda3, hda4 disappear to -- remember the ' a ' in hda refers to the 1st HDD, or "Primary Master" -- hdb would be the Primary Slave HDD, and hdc would be the Secondary Master (Many times this is an Optical Disk Drive (ODD) --> a CD/DVD Drive).

Ok - so the tohd= cheatcode copies the KNOPPIX image to the Hard Disk and runs from HDD image (see knoppix-cheatcodes.txt in \KNOPPIX Directory on CD/DVD media), so Next time, you can boot using this cheatcode;


knoppix fromhd=/dev/hd?X

remember;
* the "?" is going to be a letter (a,b,c,d) of the HDD (which one of 4 possible)
* the "X" is going to be the partition number (1,5,6,7,8,etc usually) - or (2,3,4 which is rarer, but it's what I'm using at the moment)

you can also enter a "Saved Knoppix Config" cheatcode along with the fromhd= cheatcode;


## example only
knoppix26 fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=/dev/hda1 myconf=/dev/hdb5

*edit (added 'home=/dev/hda1' line to cheatcode) */edit

[bozo8787]

Hello,
Not totally new to Linux flavors, and toyed with a few variants of Knoppix, but...

I like the "safety" of a live CD but the speed of HD access. The new unionfs is great. Is it possible to copy an image of the Live CD into a read-only partition and tell any boot loader to look for the CD image there? I'm thinking of two partitions-one for the safe files, one for the usual saved configuratiion and programs I'm "testing" but don't want them to affect my "happy with it" version. Does this make sense?

And I know USB is faster, but I dont want a dongle dangling where it can get damaged. Maybe just mounting an iso image is possible, but I'd like the guarantee that any old crap that I happen to be messing things up with invariably has ZERO access to my "happy with it " image/partition/CD.

Hope it makes sense and I'm not missing something obvious...

thanks

Certainly ;)

notes/disclaimer; I have done this on a HDD that was FAT32 formatted and ext2 and ext3 only -- NTFS may have some other issues -- for NTFS see http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Win_Partition and look around these forums nad the Wiki http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/

Anyway;
using ext2 or ext3 isa "much" better solution to using FAT32, since FAT32 does NOT have the ability to store "ownership/permissions" of Users (Metadata) -- this is extremely necessary to have a "properly" working persistent /home directory.

There's a bit of a catch22 to this -- you can boot from LiveCD and use QTParted - or use cfdisk to create, move, resize partitions...I used Qtparted and made myself (2 partitions) - an ext3 partition of ~8GB. Later, after booting to it, I made a Persistent Home Dir. (PHD) on that ext3 partition of about 1GB ...I also made a separate /swap partition of 1.5GB (I only made it that big, b/c of small amt of RAM, and if wanting to burn CDs or DVDs, thought I may need that much space...usually 512-1024 is more than adequate for /swap).

Boot from LiveCD and enter the cheatcode;


knoppix tohd=/dev/hdaX


Typical IDE interface has 2 Channels (each with 2 Devices capable) for a total of 4 devices - hence --> hda, hdb, hdc, hdd <--hda is 1st HDD, hdb the 2nd HDD, etc

'X' is a numbered partition of each HDD -- hda1 is 1st partition on 1st HDD (then 5,6,7,8 are the Logicals, "if" an Extended partition exists with Logical Drives.

If not each HDD can have up to 4 Primary [or 3 Primary + 1 Extended partition] -- this is where hda2, hda3, hda4 disappear to -- remember the ' a ' in hda refers to the 1st HDD, or "Primary Master" -- hdb would be the Primary Slave HDD, and hdc would be the Secondary Master (Many times this is an Optical Disk Drive (ODD) --> a CD/DVD Drive).

Ok - so the tohd= cheatcode copies the KNOPPIX image to the Hard Disk and runs from HDD image (see knoppix-cheatcodes.txt in \KNOPPIX Directory on CD/DVD media), so Next time, you can boot using this cheatcode;


knoppix fromhd=/dev/hd?X

remember;
* the "?" is going to be a letter (a,b,c,d) of the HDD (which one of 4 possible)
* the "X" is going to be the partition number (1,5,6,7,8,etc usually) - or (2,3,4 which is rarer, but it's what I'm using at the moment)

you can also enter a "Saved Knoppix Config" cheatcode along with the fromhd= cheatcode;


## example only
knoppix26 fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=/dev/hda1 myconf=/dev/hdb5


*edit (added 'home=/dev/hda1' line to cheatcode) */edit

Hi being that this in an older thread, does this still apply to say the now 5.0.1 Knoppix LiveDVD?

Or is there a newer more efficient method?

Conclusion: I was going to install to hdd, but after reading around I understand it's not a bright idea for n00bs like myself.

So I thought about mounting the image in on of my virtual DVD/CD ROM's but being a n00b I did it while in XP.

I understand that I must repartition. I use G-Parted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GParted

Currently i'm triple booting: Vista, XP and Ubuntu. Or since I have a linux distro should I just mount in Ubuntu virtual ROM? If yes, I would imagine I don't have to partition, correct?

EDIT: Or are all the answers found in this thread? http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11796