Why not Knoppix on the HD?

[DelphiDude]

I have seen quite a few comments about not reccommending that Knoppix be used on the hard drive, that is was made to be a Live CD only. Could the folks who have this opinion give me their reasons? Not a flame war, just honest opinions and reasons.

I have been using Debian since Red Hat abandoned the non-commercial side of Linux. But I discovered Knoppix back about 3.3 and fell in love with it. Used it not only on my machines at home but also as the desktop in several school labs. We have several production servers with 3.6 to 3.8 and they work flawlessly. The fact that they are so solid is the main reason that we got permission to begin to migrate from that bloatware nightmare called IIS and later WinXX. As far as I can see, once you apt-get upgrade you wind up with almost the same OS as if you installed Woody in the first place. Of course, you still have to go through the security stuff and make sure that there are no gaping holes, but any sane administrator would need to do that with a commercial Enterprise system also.

Version 3.8 is the most stable Linux that I have seen yet. We had our MS IIS proxy die about one day before it HAD to be online for testing and our techies were bouncing off the wall trying to get it up without success. By the next morning we had built a "Temporary" server from parts from Fry's electronics, loaded K3.8, Squid and Dansguardian, and made it with about 4 hours to spare. Months later it is still running and servicing about 1500 internet users in our district. A "real" one has been built and loaded and is on standby but so far we have seen absolutely no reason to replace the one that we cranked up during the disaster.

So, you aren't going to change my mind, but I am open to argument.

Thanx all.
DelphiDude

[UnderScore]

First read http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Hd_Install_HowTo for a overview of the HD install and its warnings.
Then read through all of this http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19761

[tdjokic]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for hd" - same, but better. Nice forum too (german & english), autor of distro is on the forum often.

[DelphiDude]

Good links UnderScore. And I learned a couple of things. But, sorry, I am unconvinced.

First off, I had a really bad day with brand new Dells and Brand new XP Pros with SP2 - about the worst combination imaginable. 8 reboots each, half dozen Dumping Physical Memory BSODs (Dells answer - "Reload the system!" "Oh, you've done that 3 times already?" "Ok, try it again and call us back"), continuous bubble popups telling me 47 times that the install is insecure - heck I know that -- its Windows!!. At least the Passport crap has been done away with.

And you expect me to worry about Knoppix on the HD because I "might" have a minor problem or two. Ha!

I think the tone of the warnings is too negative. No problem with making sure that newbies know that it is not primarily intended for use as a non-Live CD, but don't chase them off. By the time they learn enough to know the minor difference between Debian and Knoppix they will know all about the topic. And I still maintain that Knoppix goes on and works better on the HD than many made-for-HD distros, including that other OS.

I have used Knoppix to get many newbies started. I hand the platters out like candy. First to use the Live CD and discover that they can surf all night long and not worry about what they click on or open. Then stick it on their HD and dual boot with whatever Bloatware OS they have and continue the learning process. Then much later in their learning cycle, if they want "purity", go for raw Debian or Slackware or whatever.

Heck, if XP had anywhere close to as few warts as Knoppix on the HD has, Bill G would think that a choir of angels had adopted his stuff.

Thanks
DelphiDude

[UnderScore]

You and I are not the target audience for the warnings. Newbies will have difficulties with a latest CD release Knoppix 3.9 install on the HD because it breaks networking. See http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Bugs/3.9-2005-05-27 and bug #15. You are not a newbie and you yourself experienced a minor bug with installing DVD 4.0 http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20285 and its manpages because something always breaks. If you feel the warnings are too negative, then what alternative means of communication do you suggest to make sure our current and potential userbase is educated about this. There are other resources on the net that unintentionally & inadvertantly spreads incorrect information. I can not warn the masses or convert other websites to my line of thinking so instead I help change what I can. Unless a new release makes the HD install not break something and makes administrating it a cakewalk, then my suggestions stands: Knoppix HD installs are not to be done by newbies if they want an easy to maintain Linux system.

[oscar]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for hd" - same, but better. Nice forum too (german & english), autor of distro is on the forum often.

Kanotix is "Knoppix for live-cd" too, same but better. :D

[Harry Kuhman]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for live-cd" too, same but better. :D
Come on people, better is like saying "my religion is better than your religion". It is meaningless if left to stand on its own merits, which seems to be what people here are doing. While I am one of the people who advocate installing Debian and don't believe in installing a disc that is intended as a Live CD to hard disk, I will also say that for many people who insist on doing this, Kantonix is a better choice than Knoppix. But I'll also give a reason: Kantonix is said to have put a lot of effort into sticking with one single Debian release where Knoppix has not. So where a simple update will usually break Knoppix, it should not do so to Kantonix. So if you must install a Line CD to hard disk you are likely better off with Kantonix.

Of course, if you install a Live CD without even trying to install a current version of Debian first, then you are making a completely uninformed choice and you deserve whatever ills befall you.

And, as the small print on the hdd install forun says, "Once you have installed Knoppix, it basicly becomes debian....". Of course, this is true in much that same way that after you paint a racing stripe on a Volkswagon it basically becomes a Ferrari.

[oscar]

ok....but what about Kantonix versus Kanotix? :mrgreen:

[DelphiDude]

You and I are not the target audience for the warnings. Newbies will have difficulties with a latest CD release Knoppix 3.9 install on the HD because it breaks networking. See .

UnderScore, I didn't mean to come off as critical of the Knoppix crew. I think you all are doing a magnificent job. I just think that that you are so high up in the Knoppix chain that you don't realise just how valuable a tool that Knoppix is to a newbie (way down at the bottom) wanting to learn Linux but not having either the experience or a local guru to work with. The new Debian installer is much better but until recently the old installer was guaranteed to send any newbie screaming back to windows. They wouldn't get 3 screens deep before the installer asked a question for which they don't even recognise the words, let alone the question - even with a book. Also especially since kids today are TRAINED to click on the setup icon and sit back until finished. It is difficult to get a student back into thinking for his or herself.

With Knoppix, they have a working Linux in the time it takes to boot. Not hours and days of frustration trying to find out what color the transistors on the Nic card are. If it hooks them, the next thing they want is a permanent install. Knoppix again will do that with a minimum of problems - usually no problems. But any would-be young guru will expect to have some problems with a new OS - they wouldn't even be interested if it was a plug and play and never fiddle with it again proposition. And after a time they will move on to heaver installs and become real members of the Linux community.

The last part is not just a theory. I work as the jack-of-all-PC-trades in a school district and we run our labs with Knoppix Live Cds and some servers on either Debian or Knoppix (Plus one Red Hat for a reason I won't go into.) The Knoppix boot disks are may be taken home for the asking and there is always a certain percentage of students who suddenly find that world underneath the Windowed Desktop in the real insides of an OS to be absolutely fascinating. If I had given them the Woody installer, most would have come back the next day or so and said that they couldn't even get started and would have gone on with Windows.

So...

Knoppix is a Live CD distro and intended as such.
But it works well as an HD distro as long as the person keeps in mind the previous AND that a new release may have unknown problems pertaining to the HD.
It is a very easy way to get started in Linux. And I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the USA, anything that can pry a kid away from the TV and Gameboy/Xbox is extremely valuable.

Again, thanks
DelphiDude

[foamrotreturns]

The only reason I recommend against installing a LiveCD onto a permanent, production server is that LiveCDs are not intended for that purpose. They can be installed to HDD in a pinch, and sometimes even work great for a personal machine like a laptop or a workstation. However, the concept of a production environment calls for the utmost in stability and reliability. Knoppix doesn't offer that, Kanotix doesn't, Slax doesn't, NO LiveCD does.
Any sysadmin will tell you that if you're running a server, you better go with the most stable software you can find. When it comes to Linux, Debian Woody is a great stable server OS. I'm running it on a really old box as my server right now, as a matter of fact.
Lastly, newbies have no business installing a production server's OS. And experienced users such as your self have no business taking the newbie route and installing a LiveCD as your production server OS.
Just my $0.02

[markpreston]

I agree with DelphiDude. Most Knoppix versions work fine when installed on HD. if you want a basic desktop system and the ability to experiment with servers then it's fine. If you want to run production servers then it's not ideal, but most newbies aren't in this position. Life's too short for most people to get involved installing Debian. If you want stability then Knoppix is more stable than Kanotix because it's packages are generally more stable - Knoppix runs Apache 1.3x, for example, whereas Kanotix (which I have never used, but heard good reports about) currently runs Apache 2x in it's 64-bit version. If you convert the /etc/apt/sources.list file to just point to stable mirrors then I imagine Knoppix would be less likely to break on upgrading packages than Kanotix, which is based on Sid - always unstable in comparison to stable Debian versions. There is currently no widely used Live CD based on Woody that I know of, Gnoppix may be more stable, but personally I find using KDE easier. If you want more control then Gentoo.
If you want security run Knoppix from CDROM - you can't get more secure because nobody can write to the CDROM, assuming it's not a rewriteable type.
Knoppix 3.3 does all the things I regard as important to me from a HD install on my laptop, but probably not the ideal HD install for most people. Kanotix wouldn't do these things, so for me it's not as good.
Would a toram install of Knoppix be stable and reliable enough to act as a production server environment does anybody know?
Together with a USBstick for data storage you could have a server that didn't rely on moving parts.
Debian is a very great system. As I understand it Debian stable is very stable indeed and updating and upgrading should not break it. New features are added all the time to Sid (unstable). Testing concentrates on new features as well. If bugs are discovered in testing or unstable versions that affect the stable version, then eventually the stable version will be patched to make it even more stable/ secure. If the bugs are related to new features only found in the latest unstable or testing versions then they are not fed back into the stable version. Thus even Kanotix is likely to break if upgraded regularly. Reading from the Kanotix forum

http://forum.kanotix.net/viewtopic.php?t=10245

merely confirms this.
Regards,
Mark

[UnderScore]

<Beating a dead-horse and kicking it into ground ...>
I get it. You (collectively) are not attacking me and you (collectively) are not being too critical of me. I think we all have common goals. I want all users to have the best possbile knoppix experience. A HD install of Knoppix may or may not fit within that best possible experience. Notice that I have never said "Don't do a HD install of Knoppix". Also notice that I try to direct my suggestions to newbie users and not experienced or advanced Linux users. If the user is truly a newbie & not accustomed to the technical and sometimes complicated details of Linux, then I suggest that they don't do it. For those newbie users that were either not warned or chose to not follow the the advice then they may be forced to learn Linux administration & figure out how to unbreak Knoppix, most cases networking. Does anyone else think that being a newbie and knowing Linux administration are complete opposites of each other? If a user knows how to use dmesg or modprobe then they are not a newbie user.

We have a difference of opinion and that is OK and fine. You can believe "Most Knoppix versions work fine when installed on HD." and that is fine based on your experience. But the experiences of newbie users is in direct opposition to your opinion.

This is how it currently is:
newbie gets knoppix -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie reads or is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install breaks networking -> newbie struggles to get knoppix working -> newbie is forced to learn administrative commmands -> after some work & intervention(dmesg, lspic, lsmod, modprobe), newbie gets Linux working (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19522)

See two thread started within 6 hours of each other today on how installed Knoppix 3.9 to the HD and the person discovered that networking is broken.
"localhost not working" http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20394
"Working Knoppix 3.9" http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20398
The solution is to create a symbolic link, as root user:
ln -s /etc/init.d/ifupdown-clean /etc/rcS.d/S18ifupdown-clean

I re-wrote much of the HD Install HowTo and I welcome any attempts at educating & warning the users with less scary and less negative language. Since I am not a god, I can not magically create pop up warning when any newbie user goes to do a HD install. Since Knoppix 3.9 and 4.0 is out in the world for general consumption with its known bugs, we can't change them now. Since I am not a Knoppix developer, I can only do so much proactive warning/suggesting to the newbie users who want to install Knoppix to the HD.

Discussing Knoppix HD installs does not change the fact that people have problems with the HD install every day. What else can we/I do?

[markpreston]

Don't be so hard on yourself UnderScore. I don't think anybody is having a go at you in particular, and I'm sure anybody who reads this forum regularly will have picked up some useful advice and tips from you. I know I have.

This is how it currently is:
newbie gets knoppix -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie reads or is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install breaks networking -> newbie struggles to get knoppix working.

This may be so at present, but I'm sure it will improve. For me it was

newbie gets knoppix (3.1) -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install gives a working X-server with Debian login screen-> Newbie no longer has to try and install Debian where he was never able to configure X -> Newbie happy as Larry.

Anyway, your reply reminds me of a question. If you're into sadism, bestiality and necrophilia are you flogging a dead horse?
Regards,
Mark

[davea0511]

...Would a toram install of Knoppix be stable and reliable enough to act as a production server environment does anybody know?
Together with a USBstick for data storage you could have a server that didn't rely on moving parts...

That's exactly what I do. Since it isn't an HD install, nothing is broken, and you can customize it by remastering the CD image. I remove the packages that I don't need, and fit it into a 512 Mb CF card I made bootable with a 10Mb Fat16 partition running syslinux using the fromhd cheat. The toram cheat code makes it super fast too since your speed is limited only by the processor - no more waiting for CDROM or HD access. And then there's all the advantages of a 100% solid state machine that runs off a read-only storage device (note if you use a USB Flash Drive instead most of them have a physical "read-only" switch which is an added bonus).

This is far more preferrable to the HD install unless you're frequently needing to remaster the CD image to get new packages installed. I don't need to do this because my machines are highly specialized.