CytoTech
10-07-2005, 08:44 PM
I just collected nine out of the top ten distros in distrowatch and I can't seem to find the right distro for me. i just want a distro with a decent support for my winmodem, development apps, nice screensaver/wallpaper and some games... and full support to NTFS! it's hard to forget about windows, buy new hardware, work for a day coding a personalized linux kernel and keep on going to google/other search engines/forums just to make linux behave like a good ole operating system. do linux-converts like me have to be punished this bad just because we had M$ windows before and having M$ windows compatible hardware? i know it's hard to develop linux and all its components, but i think that it would be hard to convince people to try linux. i know having the latest DSL/wireless technology on my PC would be a great plus for linux, however, what about your average-wage earners who have other mouths to fill besides their PCs and can only afford an NTFS system with a winmodem? I want to go into linux, i love inside the environment, but without internet, my system is as good as a shareware OS with limited capabilities. i just wish that i'd wake up one day linux would work hand-in-hand with hardware manufacturers so that their hardware would not be too biased towards a particular OS. :?:
sorry mods if you find this post disturbing...
if this post doesn't make sense at all, just delete this without notifying me... :(
p.s.
yes, other linux systems(***X,****S) have support for winmodems, but it would require an INTERNET CONNECTION while inside the same OS!
Harry Kuhman
10-07-2005, 10:21 PM
...and full support to NTFS!
I hope that you understand that it seems to be Microsoft's choice to make NTFS not able to interoperate with Linux. Sure, there was Captive NTFS, but it seemed to always be buggy and there doesn't seem to have been any work on it for quite a while. It's important to note that the approach that captive took was to try to use Microsoft NTFS drivers taken from inside XP to give Linux full write access to NTFS. But it's certainly not that hard for the writers of the driver code to lay traps and write drivers that might work fine when called from Windows (using some secret rules known only to XP system coders and hidden inside that closed source code) but corrupt the file system if used from Linux. It's also not unreasonable to suspect that if Microsoft hates Linux enough to do this in the first place that they would make changes to the driver code in the different service packs or even in the "security updates" so that a copy of captive written before the last update may produce damanging results with newer drivers (also requiring captive be tested against every version of the XP drivers).
Of course, some of this could be avoided by including a set of drivers that have been tested and are known to work into captive, but that would be a clear violation of Microsoft copyright, so it is not likely to happen.
At least Microsoft lost their attempt to go back and patent the more than 20 year old FAT system (http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,39274459,00.htm), so Linux is able to use a partitioning system that MIcrosoft also supports (at least for now). But with the effort that Microsoft is putting into fighting Linux, it seems likely that they will be able to keep Linux from having good write access to the NTFS and any newer files systems for some time to come.
eco2geek
10-09-2005, 06:51 AM
If you wish to run Linux from within Windows (i.e. without repartitioning your hard drive), take a look at Topologilinux (http://www.topologilinux.com/).
Kanotix (http://www.kanotix.com) (a better Knoppix than Knoppix, IMHO) might support your Winmodem. You can always find out what chipset the modem uses and ask in the Kanotix forums.
Then again, if you have a shop in your town that sells used computer parts, you can buy a PCI modem that's not a Winmodem for dirt cheap. A quick check on Fry's Outpost (http://shop1.outpost.com/catreq/2822) shows modems starting at $8 (and that one claims it has Linux compatibility), so they're not too expensive new, either.
In order to come up with a suitable driver, either the modem's manufacturer has to write one (and will probably put it out under a restrictive license), or some Linux hacker has to reverse-engineer the modem's functionality in order to write an open-source driver (probably in his/her spare time, and it may not be possible if the manufacturer doesn't publish specs). That's the problem. You should definitely tell the manufacturer about your disapproval of their lack of Linux drivers.
You won't currently find a read-write NTFS driver for Linux, due to the proprietary nature of the filesystem. Read-only access to NTFS works flawlessly, and just about every distro includes it. (Red Hat won't include the read-only NTFS driver in Fedora Core because it's worried about getting sued over patent issues. It's a separate download.)
CytoTech
10-11-2005, 08:42 AM
ok, i'm calm now...
oh well, i give up... i guess tdjokic says it all... "learn first, shoot later". however, learning linux for a "microsoft-windows-poisoned-mind-consumers" like me that has been spoon-fed for a long time, would need more than just wiki pages to learn linux (maybe classroom training is nice). i guess i'll buy other linux-compatible hardware when i got some money to spare. the hard part here, is that sometimes, we never know the hardware's incompatible unless we encounter the problem. oh well, it's just the same as having wind*ws, without the bluescreens and viruses. :P i also grown to love the more simpler and smaller games than the commercial ones for M$ wind*ws
i'll also try those other distros, but i'm not expecting anything... *peace*
John_C
10-11-2005, 05:56 PM
Hey CytoTech.. I'm glad you are a little calmer. I'll tell you what changed my anxiety levels the most dealing with learning Linux. I went looking for a cheap new computer to use in experimenting with Linux and popped in a $10 SL modem. I still have use of one of my external modems, if I want to use it. With this dedicated Linux computer I didn't have to worry about messing up any windows installation. I took the attitude, if I blow it up, I'll just start over.
I have to say that everything was going great until I was fooling with a "live" Linspire CD and my wife discovered it running and wanted to try it out. With this simple interface, she decided it was easier to use than Windows and already knew Linux was much safer on the Internet. You probably have guess the rest. I kind of got a "suggestion" that this setup would be very nice in her office, with a LCD monitor -- I'm in the process of setting this up now :D . I know the installed version of Linspire is not free (but much cheaper than Windows). It is nice to know I'll be spending less time "cleaning" her computer.
As for myself and Linux. I have hard drive installations of MEPIS (great) and Xandros (don't use much - long story), and I use Kanotix from a CD (soon image on hd) and a "saved" configuration on USB flash stick. Of course I still fool with other Distros as well, and over time I'm sure my setups will change.
It's been over a year since I started messing with Linux and I'm looking forward to getting better and better with the O/S. Even purchased a copy of Knoppix Hacks (and others). You have no idea how good it feels to have come this far and I become more comfortable with Linux everyday. I actually think Windows XP is a pretty good operating system, as long as you stay away from the internet (expecially with a dial-up modem and no router). After years of using Windows, it was somewhat difficult changing my ways (especially at over 60).... but I have and I hope you don't give up. You WILL be glad you didn't!
Cuddles
10-17-2005, 04:41 PM
CytoTech,
It always amazes me, when I hear people having problems with Linux, my experience and learning, has not come without problems, issues, re-installs, corrupt hard drive installs, etc... But, I dont tend to think of them as often as I think of the many times I had to clean my system of spy-ware, viri scan, download virus sig updates, or the many times I wanted to go online and check something, only to have to spend an hour, on dialup, downloading and installing the newest Windows Security Updates.
I started out with Knoppix, and later, possibly, mid-year, moved over to Kanotix. Kanotix has the "much" touted Kano Scripts, and was a deffinate "perk" for the move. I was lucky, my "old" Win98 system came with a "very well" supported Lucent Technologies motherboard mounted modem (WinModem), and Kano's script found it, set it up, and I was online in 20 seconds. I had already dealt with three versions of Knoppix, all hard drive installed, before moving to Kanotix, and his distro was heavily promoted, to me, to assist in getting my systems running, flawlessly.
After dealing with motherboard mounted hardware, with the old system; this included modem and sound card, I opted to purchase a system made "specifically" for Linux. The first step was, to get away from the WinModem issue. This was resolved by buying a very cheap, about $20 US, external seriel modem, which, by no means, had any limitations. It includes all the "standard" expected features of any modem; fax and modem capabilities.
My newer systems all come standard, without ANYTHING on the motherboard; I then buy, or use the already bought, hardware; external modems, sound cards, video, network, etc... from other systems. My newest system was custom designed, not even Windows would handle; AMD64, NVidia chipsets, NVidia video, SoundBlaster, external modem, and a ethernet card - everything installed perfectly.
I learned from the "school of hard knocks" thinking, I learned what works, what doesnt, and dictated my system to what worked. It takes time, and some reading, and some posted questions, to get where I have my system now, but, the end result is what matters... A system that has not seen one install of a Microsoft Operating System, in fact, I tried to install Win98 on it, once, for a very old DOS program, and it failed to even install the OS - it copied all the files fine, it went to boot for the first time, and died with a blue screen. ( the partition has since been deleted, and reclaimed for Kanotix and its file system, reiser. )
As for the whole NTFS thing, at least Linux publishes its file systems to the public. If Windows wanted to support reiser file systems, they have the code to include it, whereas, the opposite, is not true. They could not only provide support for reiser, but, also ext2, ext3, etc... and they choose not to. They also choose, not to, provide assistance for Linux to support anything Windows. Microsoft, I guess, is affraid that, if Linux provided support for NTFS (natively), people would realize that Linux may be better than there own OS, and start shifting away, from them. Hence, they dont provide. They also have "markets" with the hardware manufacturers, to the point that hardware is "designed" only for Windows, and nothing else. Though a few manufacturers are realizing that another market exists that they could be selling to, and have made changes. For the moment though, it appears the modem manufacturers that choose to sell a modem that connects to the seriel port, has both market shares.
As more people drove to the side of Linux, a lot of things may change, but, until then, its buyer beware. The hardware makers arent making the task any easier, a lot of products come out vague on what they support, what they can, and cant do, and, unless the company has a "posted" return policy on hardware, you are buying something on a "chance" it might work. As a lot of people will tell you, last years hardware, will probably work, especially if its a "popular" model, current hardware, may not, again, unless someone seriously wanted to have it supported and worked on it already.
Linux is gaining notarity, and as it gets bigger, it may have more things "packaged" that it supports it, I actually saw, a few days ago, a modem box that stated it supports SuSE, almost floored me too, but, as it stands now, you either have to research its support, or, know someone who is, has, used it with Linux, for its support.
Its just the "current" nature of the Windows Dominated beast, right now. Everything will work in Windows, but, thats how it was touted, manufacturered, or marketed, for. Linux has to take the "back seat", at the moment. Many designers, reverse-engineers, coders, etc... are trying to change that, but, it takes time... resources... people... etc...
As for the whole Linux Learning Curve, yes, its tough, its different, and, its new. But, if you can think back, it was probably the same way with Windows, too. I can remember my first registry hack, trying to locate a command, or, trying to locate an .inf file that had a specific configuration I wanted to change, in it. Having more than 10 years of Windows experience, had a way of making me "jaded" to not seeing, that Linux is just the same, it takes a little learning, again. That what "I knew" in Windows, doesnt apply here; I have to re-think, or re-learn, what I know, or used to know - because it doesnt apply here.
Stick with it, though, CytoTech, and you will find, you will start to know just as much of what you knew about Windows, within Linux. You will see, that, when you need to change something that, in Windows, would lead you to the C:/Windows/System folder, that, in Linux, you will draw toward the /etc/ folder. To change something in your personal folder, you will look for a [dot] file in your /home folder. Learning doesnt happen overnight, it didnt for me, and I am still learning more, each day, about Linux. Lots of stuff I dont know, but, I continually am learning.
Hope this helps, in a small way,
Ms. Cuddles
John_C
10-17-2005, 09:58 PM
Your post about how things really do change over time got me thinking back a little ways. Back when Windows 3.0 (and prior) was released and I was purchasing my first 386 computer, I remember that Win 3.0 was just too buggy and a pain in many ways.... and I refused to use it. Installed GEOWORKS Ensemble as my graphical interface, which I had been using for some time on a 286. Like a lot of good things it disappeared in time, even my reluctance to use a "mouse"... however I still use a right-hand mouse with my left hand (yes, strange to watch - not going to change now).
Even back then you could see what Microsoft had in mind as far as what role they wanted in the OS and software marketplace. My DOS was DRDos. Of course over the years it has been proven time and time again that the "best" doesn't always win the game. It has everything to do with marketing, correct timing, and most important, "hype" (something Microsoft is very good at). Ten years from now, the computer game is going to look very much different than it is today and we'll all be saying, "remember when Microsoft controlled about 95 percent of market?"
Linux is a good thing! It's best features "free" and "many choices" are probably it's biggest problem. Too much choice, and people do need to get paid for what they do (I like eating). Somewhere down the road it will get sorted out and I sure hope the end result will leave everyone with a few good choices. I use Kanotix as my OS of choice, simply because it is just so damn good compared to most (and I will support it with $$)... My wife uses Linspire because it is easier to use than Windows and she pays for it (but not too much).... but I don't get paid $$ for keeping it up-to-date for her.
I think my last straw with windows was with the last computer I bought from Dell. It was very cheap and I bought it to use with Linux... But of course it came with Win XP on the hard drive, so i fired it up and (modem) connected to the internet. Even though it had been built only 3 days before, it proceeded to download 80 MB of updates that I couldn't stop, turn off, or nothing. Even after I turned everything off to NOT download, it kept going. If I killed my internet connection, it resumed as soon as I started it again -- I was not happy to have to wait for hours before I could go any further. Like who is really controlling my computer? Well at least the limited Window's firewall was on by default. The computer before that was configured without a firewall (XP) and I forgot to check or install a firewall... about 3 seconds online was all it took "computer is going to shutdown in 30 seconds". Oh so much fun -- had to get out the re-install disk on that one -- and then download for hours.
Even if windows was free, I don't want it anymore. I will keep my XP Pro setup to use with Windows software -- some of which is pretty slick, but NEVER to go on the Internet again. I am really looking forward to the latest release of Kanotix with it's new features. It has been a long time since I was this excited about an OS release and so am I glad I have invested my time in learning more and more about Linux? OH YEAH!
CytoTech
10-28-2005, 11:35 AM
Hi, I'm back, christmas is around the corner and i'll just wait for our 13th month bonus so i can buy an external modem. i wish i was in the USA and order whatever i can on the 'net. :) i love kanotix, knoppix, mepis and for a fat distro, i use SuSE. i learned how to mount -o loop my iso files and program in eclipse/netbeans and python, gambas. I think learning linux is like a love-hate relationship with somebody. you have to have a few dates, then try to stick with someone for a longer time, then check out the insides and after a few years, both of you work together in harmony. i believe with linux, polygamy works. :P when i get a raise for my salary, i could start applying for DSL service and/or buy a new computer for myself.
*peace* guys!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.