Persistent Cheat Codes

[dbar]

Hi Folks,

Can anyone tell me if there is a method to automatically enter Cheat Codes so I don't have to key 'knoppix home=...... config=...... fromhd=........' every time I boot Knoppix (4.0.2 CD)?

I'm a newbie running Knoppix with the Poor Man's Installation on older PII and PIII computers.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

........ dbar

[ruymbeke]

...I'm a newbie running Knoppix with the Poor Man's Installation on older PII and PIII computers. ...
If you are using the PMI, this means that you are already booting Knoppix from the hdd
and that you are already using a different bootloader than the one on the CD.
If you are using grub, I will suggest you to modify the grub config menu.lst file.
If you are using lilo, I will suggest you to modify the lilo.conf file and then run lilo to commit the changes.
Best Regards,
Gilles

[dbar]

Gilles, many thanks for your reply.

Unless I'm missing something entirely here (which would not be unusual in my case), I'm not using either GRUB or lilo to boot Knoppix. I boot Knoppix from the CD, and at the boot prompt type in "knoppix home=/dev/hda5 config=/dev/hda5 fromhd=/dev/hda1". The Knoppix CD image co-exists in a file on hda1 (fat32) with some installed version of Windows, usually 98. Persistant Home resides on hda5 (fat32) as a file.

After more than 40 years at a typewriter / keyboard, I am sorry to say, I have only been able to get (almost) 2 1/2 fingers involved in the typing process ... and here lies my problem. Knoppix is wonderful. I love everything about it. The way I have it set up now suites my purpose to a tee ... except having to type in those cheat codes every time I boot it. So, without using using grub or lilo, is there a way to modify the Knoppix CD boot process to include the cheat codes so I can avoid typing them in every time?

Regards,
dbar

[ICPUG]

dbar,

I don't know of a way, without grub or lilo, to do what you want.

However, it appears you are using the very basic PMI that has the Knoppix image on hard disk but still uses the CD to boot. Gilles was referring to a more sophisticated 'WinPartition' PMI that uses the hard disk for booting as well. This removes the need for the CD, as well as saving you typing cheat codes every time you boot. In order to work it does need a special version of Grub, which works with Windows. You do not have to worry about disk partitioning or upsetting Master Boot Records or the Windows system. You copy some files and adjust your Windows boot up files and away you go. If you are competant with Windows Explorer, can download files from the Internet and can edit text files, you can do it.

I would point you at the Wiki page on how to do this, but it is a little out of date.

Let me know if you are interested and I will attempt to provide some instructions for Windows 98 for you.

ICPUG

[Harry Kuhman]

I don't know of a way, without grub or lilo, to do what you want.
Until I saw your response worded exactly that way, I didn't think I knew any way either, short of remastering. But there actually is an easy way, and it's a tool I use on most of my systems:

I like installing a boot loader other than grub or lilo. I've used Smart Boot Manager on some systems that would not boot from CD, but I like XOSL a lot more and find it has a lot more features. And it includes SBM code to give the CD boot on systems that don't support it or don't get it right. One of the features of XOSL is that it can type in things at boot time. I use this, for example, to have one menu item that boot Windows and another that boots to the command prompt only (I don't have to wait for the exact point in the boot sequence or remember which function key I need to use that way). If you nstall XOSL on a system (give it it's own tiny 2-4 meg partition), then you could have a menu system that included things like:

1. Windows
2. Debian
3. CD in drive #1
4. CD in drive #2
5. CD in drive #1 with Knoppix startup arguments
6. Floppy
7. DOS command prompt only


So a simple XOSL install would give this feature without remastering and provide other utility too.

[ICPUG]

Oh dear! My wording was not quite correct. When I said:

I don't know of a way, without grub or lilo, to do what you want.

I meant

I don't know of a way, without a boot manager, to do what you want.

In mitigation of my error, I would point out that dbar mentioned Grub and Lilo, so I repeated what the user was comfortable with.

In my time trying to determine a foolproof method, for newbies and worriers like me, to dual boot Knoppix and Windows I investigated a number of boot managers. Grub, Lilo, Smart Boot Manager, Loadlin amongst them. I finally settled on Grub as my preferred option, especially the customised versions from the Grub4Dos project. As I said, I am a worrier. From all I read, I deemed Grub to be the most versatile, still actively supported and the least likely to screw up my system. Something that dare not happen to a newbie who wants to try and move away from Windows by trying Linux, but not lose their capability to run Windows.

I had not heard of XOSL so I did some Googling. XOSL is just another boot manager. I found the following two statements about XOSL in the documentation I found.

Currently XOSL can only be installed to FAT16 or FAT32 partitions (provided that your version of DOS supports it).

No good for NTFS users then

The MBR (first sector of a hard disk) contains an IPL (Initial Program Loader, or whatever you want to call it) and a partition table. When XOSL is installed, it replaces the existing IPL, with one to load XOSL.

Messing about with an MBR, along with introducing new partitions, is, in my opinion, too much of a risk to screwing up the Windows system.

Consequently XOSL is no good to me on two counts already. It may be a perfectly good option for those who are happy to bit twiddle with their hard drives - but too much of a risk for me.

The grub files from the Grub4Dos project do not need new partitions, do not mess with the MBR and are really easy to install - just copy a file to the right place.

I realise that were I to do a full hard disk installation of Debian Linux, or some such, then I would have to do something different - but that is not what is asked for in this thread.

ICPUG

[Harry Kuhman]

I had not heard of XOSL so I did some Googling. XOSL is just another boot manager.
Yes, it's a boot manager. Name stands for eXtended Operating System Loader. "Just another Boot Manager" is a bit of an understatement though, it's a very capable and powerful boot manager.


Currently XOSL can only be installed to FAT16 or FAT32 partitions (provided that your version of DOS supports it).

No good for NTFS users then
No, you're coming to the wrong conclusion there. By the same logic you would also say that it's not good for Linux users or anyone other than DOS and old windows versions users. While XOSL can install to a Windows partition, I find it best to give it it's own small (2 meg) partition on the disk. From there it can boot any OS, and it can do a lot of things that Microsoft pretends can't be done, like boot Windows from a logical drive on an extended partition on the second, third or forth hard drive.


The MBR (first sector of a hard disk) contains an IPL (Initial Program Loader, or whatever you want to call it) and a partition table. When XOSL is installed, it replaces the existing IPL, with one to load XOSL.
Absolutely. Just as Lilo and Grub do if you elect to install them to the MBR (as most users do). On thing I find real nice about XOSL is that you install it once and then you are pretty much done, unless some other OS (like anything from Microsoft, or letting lilo or grub install to the MBR) overwrites the MBR. But XOSL does prepare for that and makes a backup copy of the MBR, do it is very easy to restore XOSL with all of your curent configurations, should any program fecide to stomp on it.


Messing about with an MBR, along with introducing new partitions, is, in my opinion, too much of a risk to screwing up the Windows system.
Well, as you say, that's your opnion. In my experience it's never caused a problem and likely has avoided many. I see plenty of cases here where people install Lilo or Grub and let it install to the MBR, then can't get WinXP to boot again. When I install Linux I always tell the installer to install the Linux boot loader to the Linux partition. On booting XOSL, if told to select Linux, can then call the Linux boot loader from it's own partition. I never have to mess with a grub configuration file or worse, reconfigure Lilo and reinstall it to the MBR. I can have two or more different linux systems on the same computer and don't have to reconfigure any of their boot programs as I add or remove OSs, since each boot loader stays on the Linux partition with it's OS and only has to deal with loading that OS (as opposed to writing Grub to the IPL on the MBR, which then needs to have config files that show all of the OSs available). The bottom line is that a Windows system with XOSL as a boot laoder is much less likely to ever have boot problems after Installing or removing a Linux system on another partition than one without it that needs Grub or Lilo,


Consequently XOSL is no good to me on two counts already.
You seem to be on a bit of a cursade here to put this solution down, but I believe I have responded to both of your counts already.


It may be a perfectly good option for those who are happy to bit twiddle with their hard drives - but too much of a risk for me.
As already stated it is in no way any more risky than Lilo or Grub and in many ways less risky. But you sure don't have to use it if you don't want. I would just ask that you not invet undue FUD about any alterntive than your own personal religion.


The grub files from the Grub4Dos project do not need new partitions, do not mess with the MBR and are really easy to install - just copy a file to the right place.

I realise that were I to do a full hard disk installation of Debian Linux, or some such, then I would have to do something different - but that is not what is asked for in this thread.

ICPUG
And Grub, if not installed to the Linux partition, does overwrite the windows boot code. I'm happy with XOSL.

But my real reason for presenting my first post in this thread, beyond the poor wording on your part that only the boot loader that you use could solve the problem, is that XOSL is far more powerful than most boot loaders in this area too. While many boot loaders can indeed pass along a few arguments when they start an OS, XOSL is the only one that I know that can further interact with the OS while it boots. It can watch the Keyboard buffer and stuff in keystrokes as the OS is ready to accept them. In this way it can do far more than Grub can as it boots an OS.

Use it or ignore it as you see fit, but please don't spread Fear, Uncertainily, and Doubt against a very good tool just because it is one that you don't have experience with.

And while XOSL can boot Linux systems (it just does this by calling the Linux boot loader installed to the Linux partition), it can boot Windows or any other OS that is suitable for the 8086 PC platform (including OS2, Unix, and more, as well as any OS on a bootable CD or other media). There have been articles about people booting over 30 different OS on the same PC (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/26/1225200&mode=nested&tid=99&threshold=3) with it. You don't have to fool with manually editing configuration files like you do with Lilo or Grub. And you don't have to learn yet another boot loader if you want to work with another OS, or figure out how to make that system's boot loader and the Linux boot loader co-exist. You learn one good, clean and easy tool and then you have the right tool for booting any system. Knowing and using one easy but powerful tool strikes me as much safer than letting any OS that want to overwrite the IPL code in the MBR.

By the way, it includes the SBM code for booting from CDs even on systems that don't support CD booting. And it includes a partition and format too right in the boot manager (Ranish), so it becomes extremely simple to work with partitioning when you need to, two other things that you don't have if you let Grub take over the MBR.

[ICPUG]

What have I done to incur the wrath of Harry?

I happen to have a differing opinion regarding the level of risk involved in disk partioning and altering the MBR and I am accused of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, (FUD). There are enough posts in these forums to show that a number of users have had problems when overwriting the MBR. Additionally, newbies from a Windows environment do not always know how to answer the partitioning questions, (how many and size for example), let alone overcome the problems Windows may throw up, (like saving little bits at the end of a partition that seem impervious to the defragmentation process - making the partition extremely difficult to subdivide). This is not FUD. It has been reported and so I consider it a potential risk. Windows does throw up all sorts of obstacles and it is not FUD when I mention potential effects. Also, the majority of Windows users are not as clever as Harry, and this has to be considered when presenting solutions to their problems.

I am not 'on a bit of a crusade here to put this solution (XOSL) down'. I have the same concern about LILO or full Grub install, when used simply to boot the Knoppix ISO or cloop file from a CD or hard drive, which is what was originally asked for. Apart from a full Linux install, where I have already said I would have to do something different, I am intrigued by XOSL in another way. Would it somehow boot a USB Flash Memory stick when the BIOS will not boot from it? That would be useful.

If Harry's response had simply been a difference of opinion I might have let sleeping dogs lie. However, being called a liar is not something I will tolerate.


Harry said:

ICPUG wrote:

The grub files from the Grub4Dos project do not need new partitions, do not mess with the MBR and are really easy to install - just copy a file to the right place.

I realise that were I to do a full hard disk installation of Debian Linux, or some such, then I would have to do something different - but that is not what is asked for in this thread.

And Grub, if not installed to the Linux partition, does overwrite the windows boot code. I'm happy with XOSL.

While full Grub install will overwrite Windows boot code, I was clearly talking about the grub files from Grub4DOS, (grub.exe for Windows 9x and DOS; grldr for Windows XP). It is simply not true that these files will overwrite Windows boot code and to suggest otherwise is your own brand of FUD, Harry.

I guess whatever Harry thinks of my different opinions, it does not matter. dbar seems to have gone anyway!

ICPUG

[dbar]

Hi ICPUG;

WOW! What have I started here? My apologies for disappearing for so long amid all the opinion crunching.

ICPUG, I'll take you up on your offer of providing me with instructions for downloading and installing that special Windows GRUB version that won't mess up my HD or MBR ... if you're still willing to help.

Umpteen family members and friends (newer newbies than I) who I have introduced to Knoppix, also eagerly await your reply.

Harry, I'm not taking sides here. I just want a way for me and mine to slap in the Knoppix CD, boot up the computer, hit Enter and enjoy Knoppix the way I left it last time it was run with all the config changes, settings and documents intact.

If there was anyway Knoppix could start up like Puppy using the pup001 file, that would be great.

dbar

[ICPUG]

Hi dbar,

Glad to see you have returned. I have been away a few days so I hope you have not given up on me.

I will have a look at getting those instructions for you. I have done the instructions for another distro (Puppy). I have Knoppix working. It is just I have not written the instructions! Give me some time and I will be back!

ICPUG

[dbar]

Hi Icpug;

Good to see you back too. I anxiously await your reply. I'm most interested in Knoppix, but if you have a procedure for Puppy, I'd greatly appreciate that also.

Regards,

dbar

[ICPUG]

dbar

I'm glad you asked for the Puppy instructions. Follow them and making the mods for Knoppix later will be much easier.

Go to:
http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step00-linnwin.htm

This gives a set of instructions for a complete newbie to obtain Linux and dual boot it with Windows. You obviously don't have to obtain your Linux so things are a bit simpler. I like to explain things a lot so there are a lot of words in these instructions, but not a lot of actual work to do!

Carry out Steps 1 and 2 as these are valid for any Linux. Even if you do not want to bother with setting up Puppy do this in preparation for Knoppix.

Carry out step 3 but you will not have to download any files. Copy the existing Puppy files you have. Copy any existing pup.001 file to the same folder as user_cram.fs. The instructions are written for Puppy 1.0.7 but they will work equally well for other versions. You may want to name the directory c:\boot\puppy.107 something different if you are using another version. Just make sure you reference the same directory in step 4.

Carry out step 4. Note how the Puppy cheat codes are added in the vmlinuz line. This is what we do with Knoppix cheat codes when we get round to that - and that is how your original request is answered!

When you have done this you should have a working Puppy on your hard disk.

All I have to do then is provide the modified step 3 and 4 for Knoppix 4.0.2. I am going to assume you are doing this on Windows 98 and NOT Windows XP. Should have the instructions by the end of this weekend. Watch this space. Let me know how you get on with the Puppy instructions.

ICPUG

[dbar]

ICPUG;

Worked like a charm with Puppy. I had a bit of a problem the first time I booted. An error occurred indicating the vmlinuz file could not be found. When I downloaded that file it came with a ".htm" file extension which I thought was fine at the time. After I renamed the file dropping the extension, all was good.

Your instructions are really well written and greatly appreciated. I look forward to receiving your Knoppix version.

dbar

[ICPUG]

dbar

Glad to hear you got Puppy working from the frugal install OK. I have used your experience of vmlinuz.htm to amend the instructions to look out for this.

I have now crafted the instructions for a Poor Man's install of Knoppix to a Window 9x machine and incorporated them within the Lin'N'WinNewB Project. You can go to the link I gave before and plough your way through to the relevant pages or, having completed steps 1 and 2 already, go straight to the Knoppix pages for steps 3 and 4:

Step 3:

http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step3-knoppix.htm

You already have your Knoppix Live CD so you only have to follow the bits at the bottom of this page.

Note: If you already have a copy of Knoppix on your hard drive - which I think you do - then either move it to where the instructions say or remove it before following my instructions. Do NOT have two copies of Knoppix on the hard drive. According to posts here Knoppix can sometimes get confused.

Step 4:

http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step4-knoppix.htm

This page has some notes about incorporating your cheat codes so they will become persistent and you don't have to keep typing them in.

Hopefully, with this all done, you will have a PC from which you can boot Windows, Puppy and Knoppix with no need for CDs, or typing of cheat codes every time.

Let me know how you get on.

ICPUG

[dbar]

ICPUG;

Spent all of yesterday and all morning today trying to get Knoppix to boot per your last instruction post. Knoppix would start to boot then stop after "Scanning for USB/Firewire Devices" showing "Can't find KNOPPIX file system, sorry, Dropping you to a (very limited) shell, press reset button to quit, ............ Knoppix#". I messed around altering the menu.lst script and placing the KNOPPIX file and folder and duplicates thereof anywhere I thought might work. Had a few slightly successful boots to Knoppix in German language but was unable to shut down, or avoid all kinds of error messages. Gave up last night. Started fresh this morning on another computer with clean install of Win98SE. Downloaded another Knoppix 4.0.2 iso and burned Knoppix CD. I then followed your instruction step 1 through 4, and got the same sorry message above.

I moved the KNOPPIX file to the root of C (hda1) then it finally booted normally into Knoppix. I created a few folders and files in the Home Directory, Changed the desktop wallpaper, saved the configuration and created a persistent Home on hda5. I then placed the Cheat Codes config=/dev/hda5 home=/dev/hda5 in the menu.lst file and rebooted to Knoppix.

The knoppix config was loaded on boot and came up with my desktop changes intact. hda5 however had reverted back to read only and was not mounted as I had set it up before rebooting. The files in the Home directory that I placed in there for testing did not load or were not saved on the initial run of Knoppix.

I went back to the original computer I was trying this on yesterday, wiped every trace of Knoppix files and folders I could find off of all hd partitions, copied the Knoppix file to the root of hda1 and, like magic, it too booted up OK into Knoppix. Same results though not being able to save Home directory or hda5 mount and write settings between boots.

Well ICPUG, we're better than half way there. Now if you can help me get persistent home and the hd settings to remain sticky, we've won and deserve to celebrate. The only question left then: Your place or mine?

Hope to hear from you soon.

dbar

[ICPUG]

dbar,

I'm very sorry to hear that things did not go as smoothly as I expected.

From your comments that you had a few successful boots in German and the fact the KNOPPIX file had to be moved to the root of C one explanation could be that the parameters on the 2 lines below the 'Kernel=' line are not being recognised, The directory for the location of KNOPPIX and the language is defined on these lines. You now have config working but not permanent home. If the config parameter is on the same line as the 'kernel=' but home parmeter on the lines below this would confirm this theory.

I cannot emphasise enough that these 3 lines, (as displayed on screen in the web page), are entered as ONE line. Just keep typing it in menu.lst, putting a space between each cheat code.

I also thought the cheat code for home was 'home=/dev/hda5/knoppix.img'

I have not played with a permanent home so cannot confirm what happens in this regard. I will now try and set one up tonight on my machine.

Can you please e-mail me a copy of your current menu.lst? You will find my e-mail address on the response page pointed to on the last page of the instructions.

ICPUG

[ICPUG]

dbar,

I think I have found the reason for your problems (and pleasingly it is not my instructions!).

I have now successfully created a persistent home and saved my configuration on my own Windows 98 PC and successfully rebooted and everything is still there. Let me tell you what I did.

My menu.lst as per original instructions
Booted up Knoppix
Mounted hda5
Made hda5 writeable
Changed the background picture to be different from the default
Using the Knoppix menu created a persistent home on hda5
Saved the configuration on hda5
I now created a KWrite file on the Home directory (but see later)
Shutdown Knoppix

I planned to reboot into Knoppix to check that without changes to the menu.lst it would come back as the default background picture and my Home directory would be devoid of the KWrite file.

When I booted into Knoppix I was amazed to find a full screen prompt come up saying it had found an image file and did I want it as a persistent home. It would seem the home cheat code is not necessary - it scans anyway! This time I said CANCEL. (Wait 20secs and it defaults to CANCEL).

True enough the default background picture was back and my Home directory was devoid of the KWrite file.

Shutdown Knoppix and rebooted into Windows

Modified the menu.lst to ADD two cheat codes to the end of my current 'kernel=' line. These were config=/mnt/hda5 home=/mnt/hda5. I've just realised the cheat code list says, as you had, /dev/hda5. I was following the book 'Knowing Knoppix'!

Rebooted into Knoppix. It gave the screen prompt again but this time I chose OK to load the persistent home. At the end of the boot up my chosen background picture was displayed so the saved configuration had been loaded.

Went to check the Home drive and I was amazed to find no KWrite file! However, I remembered that at the time I created my persistent home it said a reboot was required. I had not done that at the time I wrote the original KWrite file so I created it again.

Rebooted into Knoppix again and this time as well as the chosen background picture I also had my KWrite file. I edited it to make sure my Home had read/write capability and it did.

All seems to behave as you want. I find it annoying that you have to say OK to load the persistent home, but it seems impossible to bypass that now. According to the screen prompt it is a security measure.

It was while writing this offline that I realised I had used different cheat codes for home and config. I decided to check whether /dev/hda5 would work instead of /mnt/hda5. I found it would for config but NOT for home! I had now exactly mimicked your problem. So the solution is to use home=/mnt/hda5 and not home=/dev/hda5.

I now decided to play around. I knew it would auto detect the home. I wondered what would happen if I left out the config cheat code as well. Numerous bootings later I found that if you define a cheatcode it overrides the default of auto searching - which is why the home=/dev/hda5 failed. If you DON'T define a cheatcode it auto searches. Consequently you do not HAVE to define home or config if the auto search works. Leave them out and select OK when it finds the persistent home image and it would load the persistent home and config automatically (for some reason KMIX was opened though???). Leave the cheat codes out and select CANCEL when it finds the persistent home image and it boots with the default config and home.

I'm still think your problem of Knoppix having to be in the root of C is a malformed line in menu.lst.

UPDATE - Yes it is! I received the menu.lst by e-mail and I can see the problem now. The browser used to view the instruction page did not render the &nbsp character as a space. You put these in the menu.lst which upset the lines. Revised menu.lst sent back by e-mail.

As always, let me know how you get on.

ICPUG

[dbar]

ICPUG;

IT WORKS GREAT! Many, many, many thanks for all your help.

I really like how easy this is to set up (in the end) and the fact that it is not intrusive at all to the high and mighty Windows set up.

I share your annoyance with having to select OK at the Persistent Home selection prompt. It would be really nice if there was some way to bypass that, perhaps with a cheat code parameter.

There are still a few minor situations with the Knoppix boot that could use some attention when and if time permits. I'm getting "Error loading file:///cdrom/KNOPPIX/index_en.html: The file or folder ......... does not exist". Works OK if Knoppix CD is in drive, but this is a pain where BIOS set up boots CD before HD. Kmix is also starting with Knoppix ... OK I guess if your a music lover. And, I'm still having a problem with hda5 remaining writable between boots. I haven't decided yet if this is a good thing or not. Maybe it's a good safety switch when others are using my computer.

All in all, I'm happy as a pig in pink. I look forward to the day Windows becomes the boot option rather than the default, or, better still, not an option at all.

Again, many thanks for all your assistance.

dbar

[beausimon]

Hi ICPUG,
Thanks for the instructions. I tried on my PC and it worked really great. Do you think this method of using grldr can be used to boot a Fedora installation?

What I meant is this:
After copying the grldr and menu.lst into the C:\ and modifying boot.ini to add in the grldr
entry and modifying menu.lst for knoppix.
1. Install FC5 into a separate partition and do not install its bootloader in the MBR so that
Windows bootloader continue to be in the MBR.
2. Modify menu.lst to add an entry for the FC5 so that when booting up, we have 3 options.
Windows, Knoppix and Fedora.

Thanks.

[ICPUG]

Hi Beausimon,

Glad to hear you got my instructions to work - especially as I have not specifically added those for Knoppix with grldr (for NTFS). You have made the link for yourself!

I have no experience with full Linux Distros like Fedora. I concentrate on Live CDs because they do what I want and appear to be less hassle!

As I understand it Fedora, like all full Linux systems, needs a separate partition. This partition will also have to be made active. I am not sure the Grub4DOS file (grub.exe or grldr) will cope with this. I don't have the hardware to test it either. Maybe you want to be brave and try! I will not be able to help if it goes really wrong, although I cannot see why it should. I suspect it just wouldn't find the Fedora system.

As I understand it, when you do an install of Fedora and answer the questions correctly, it will install Grub in the MBR and set up the grub configuration file so it will dual boot with Windows, although I am not sure which version of Windows we are talking about here. If it works with Windows XP then I guess we could amend the Fedora grub configuration file to call up a Knoppix cloop file. I would have to be absolutely sure Fedora will dual boot with Windows XP before trying this though. I have a fear of messing up the MBR and then nothing works! At the very least you need the Emergency Recovery Disk created from Windows XP (and checked that it works beforehand!) so that you can reset the MBR back to what Windows likes.

ICPUG

[beausimon]

Hi IPUG,
I'ld probably try Fedora instal when I get another HDD drive for my system :)

Thanks.

[PaulBx1]

ICPUG, I tried this with both a Knoppix 4.0.2 as your example showed, and with a Knoppix 5.0 (DVD). That is, my menu.lst has the entry for 4.0.2 like your example, and a cut-and-paste of that with "402" changed to "500" everywhere. I then created the additional knoppix.500 directory, and as before took the linux and minirt.gz files from the 5.0 DVD. I also took the KNOPPIX and KNOPPIX2 files, which is different from your example that only had to deal with a single KNOPPIX file.

Well, I had great hopes, and the 4.0.2 boot did work. But not the 5.0. When it was going through, just after enabling DMA on hda and hdc, it gave the message:
"Can't find knoppix file system, sorry. Dropping you to a (very limited) shell..."

When I rebooted 4.0.2 I could see that step that it must have failed on, in the 5.0 boot. It was:
"Accessing Knoppix CD at /dev/hda1". But doing again in 5.0 I could see it barely flash on the screen that is was "Looking for DVD in /dev/hdc" and in other devices.

I tried removing the fromhd cheatcode, and I tried changing it to look in /mnt/hda1 rather than /dev/hda1, and I tried fromhd=scan, and I tried giving it the entire directory string. Same result, no matter what.

I'm a bit at a loss because I really did just cut and paste the working 4.0.2 entry into the 5.0 entry, so the menu.lst must be ok, unless it has to also refer to the KNOPPIX2 file, or something like that. But when I looked to the corresponding bootloader config file on the DVD, it didn't have anything like that.

Have you tried this process with 5.0 or 5.0.1, the DVD versions (that have two KNOPPIX files)?

<later>
After playing with this some more, it is starting to look like one could get away with using fromhd in the 4.0.2 grub boot spec because 4.0.2 is (apparently) more forgiving than 5.0? That is, it doesn't seem to mind that the big KNOPPIX file is in a /boot/knoppix.402 directory, rather than in /KNOPPIX as I imagine it is supposed to be with the fromhd cheatcode. I am looking at the bootfrom cheatcode, but I don't quite understand what an "ISO" is. The only thing on the 5.0 disk that is iso is "...half-baked.iso" which doesn't sound promising. What do people mean about an ISO, is that the entire directory tree on a CD or something? That you have to tack a .iso extension on when you copy the directory tree to hard drive?

[ruymbeke]

...I am looking at the bootfrom cheatcode, but I don't quite understand what an "ISO" is. The only thing on the 5.0 disk that is iso is "...half-baked.iso" which doesn't sound promising. What do people mean about an ISO, is that the entire directory tree on a CD or something? That you have to tack a .iso extension on when you copy the directory tree to hard drive?
An described in here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_image
an ISO 9660 cd or dvd image is usually a quite large data file which can be used to burn a cd or a dvd
and is what you are probably looking for when you download a new release of the Knoppix live cd or dvd:
http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/

fat or ntfs partition ?
=============
If you have stored the knoppix/knoppix2 file on a fat16/32 partition (win 98 or me)
the nice step by step solution described by ICPUG will work just fine,
but if you are using a ntfs partiton (win XP default) it will not work.
Neither the Knoppix linux kernel nor the inirt.gz boot ramdisk includes the ntfs kernel module
required to load and boot from the ntfs partition and the result is that the linuxrc boot script
will leave you in the very limited shell... basically only usefull for debugging the boot scripts.
This the reason for my alternate minirt_usb6.gz.

Besides allowing you to boot directly from the ISO file (which is not required
but will allow you to not need to extract the knoppix and knoppix2 files
from the cd/dvd content because of the double loop back)
my boot ramdisk includes the kernel modules for ntfs and reiser support.
I also fixed some bugs (ext2 home directory)
and added some more features as custom (static & dynamic) hostname.
So if you use this minirt_usb6.gz file instead of the original minirt.gz
it should work "as is" from a ntfs partition.
You can find the minirt_usb6.gz in the following links:
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=103883#103883
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11796

Hope this helps,
Gilles

[PaulBx1]

an ISO 9660 cd or dvd image is usually a quite large data file which can be used to burn a cd or a dvd
and is what you are probably looking for when you download a new release of the Knoppix live cd or dvd

Actually, I have never downloaded these big things. Always bought CDs and DVDs from vendors. Is there a way to recreate the ISO from the DVD, maybe something already in Knoppix 4.0.2? I will dig around...




fat or ntfs partition ?

FAT. It's Windows 98. So I guess IPUG's solution should work, if I get that ISO made.

[ruymbeke]

Is there a way to recreate the ISO from the DVD, maybe something already in Knoppix 4.0.2? I will dig around...
From Linux (Knoppix), you can use dd (disk dump).
But please, be carefull when using this low level command,
it is very powerful and can be *VERY* destructive for the data on your hdd.

From Windows, you can try: http://www.isobuster.com/
This great program can be used in a free mode and
after a right click on the cd/dvd icon you will find the extract cd image selection ...
(do not use the raw format but the first extract option)

Yes you can use the original (from the cd) minirt.gz with a fat (win 98) partition and grub.exe
from dos (no emm386 loaded) via a config.sys menu, cf my usb howto (grubi.zip):
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=93758#93758

Hope this helps,
Gilles

[PaulBx1]

The machine I was going to do this on (the one networked to my laptop) has a dying power supply, so I'm going to put this on the back burner for now, and see what I can get done with 4.0.2. One question though; when I use dd, /dev/cdrom should be unmounted, right? I tried dd when it was mounted and got an error, after a 3.8GB of data(!), and one of the websites I read about this process noted it should be unmounted first.

[ruymbeke]

The machine I was going to do this on (the one networked to my laptop) has a dying power supply, so I'm going to put this on the back burner for now, and see what I can get done with 4.0.2. One question though; when I use dd, /dev/cdrom should be unmounted, right? I tried dd when it was mounted and got an error, after a 3.8GB of data(!), and one of the websites I read about this process noted it should be unmounted first.
You want to umount a device which is mounted as rw (read/write) to prevent data corruption.
By definition a cd-rom or dvd-rom cannot be written and by default is mounted as read only, so it shouldn't matter.
You probably have a problem over 4GB because you are using a fat partition to save it to
(A *LOT* of people reported this problem already with the Knoppix 5.01 DVD),
or are transfering the file over a windows network (samba daemon on linux).
Try to save the file locally on a ext2/3, reiser, (or ntfs using Knoppix 5.01) partition.
My two cents,
Gilles

[PaulBx1]

No, the 5.0 DVD is about 3.8GB, which shouldn't have the problem you mention (which is why people are first reporting it in 5.0.1 - it's the first one over that limit). I still saw an error at the end, for some reason. I didn't transfer the file yet, and in any case the network is wired ethernet.

Again, I am regrouping for now. Shopping for a power supply this evening, for one thing...

[ruymbeke]

...I still saw an error at the end, for some reason. I didn't transfer the file yet...
dd (disk dump) transfer data as long as there is no error and has no idea about the end of the disk/file.
So I just think that dd reports an error when you reach the end of the dvd and basically the transfert is done.
Did you check for the length of the file ? Does it match the dvd length ?
(you may still have some slight difference from the length reported on a dowloaded iso
since depending on the burner & software each physical dvd burned may be sligthly different...)
My two cents,
Gilles

[ICPUG]

Hi PaulBx1

Sorry for not coming back to you earlier. When this thread goes quiet I tend to return to check once a week. Anyway, I see Gilles Ruymbeke has been helping out.

From reading your post here and in another thread of this forum section it appears you are very much the sort of person my instructions are meant for. You are wary with messing up MBRs and you like to tinker with scripts!

To answer queries from your original post:
I have not tried my step by step instructions witk Knoppix 5.0/5.1. I never obtained 5.0 and currently I have not got 5.1. I was waiting till it appeared on a magazine, but maybe I have to get it from a merchant before then. I am a bit concerned that the steps for a Win98 / FAT32 machine do not seem to work and I need to check it for myself.

I am not sure whether the problem is the change in version from 4.0.2. to 5.0 or whether the double file on the DVD is the problem. I have a 4.0.2 DVD so I think I must try loading the two files from that version and see if this breaks down as well. I will report back on that.

It should not be necessary to boot from the ISO on a Win98 machine - unless it is needed to solve the two file problem :) . The speed of loading Open Office Org can be severely reduced on my processor challenged machine, so I have tended to use the standard files in the past.

Note that if you do try to boot from an ISO my menu.lst instructions have to change to use bootfrom and remove the fromhd, knoppix_dir and knoppix_name parameters. These were added specifically for booting from the standard files. I found that when I did so it would search for the KNOPPIX file directly from where specified, rather than go searching every other device possible first, which led to slow boot up times.

I see you have also appeared on the Puppy Linux forum, perhaps because you followed my similar instructions for Puppy? Unfortunately I cannot see what you wrote, because the forum seems to be having some problems at the moment.

Anyway, I will try and run the 4.0.2 DVD and let you know how I get on.

ICPUG

[ICPUG]

OK - I've now run the 4.0.2. DVD. Lack of disk space on my Windows 98 machine meant I had to use my NTFS configured laptop. Nevertheless, this was configured intially to run the 4.0.2. CD cloop file from the hard disk.

I simply replaced the single KNOPPIX cloop file with the two files KNOPPIX, KNOPPIX2 from the 4.0.2 DVD and it booted up into the DVD version no problem.

I am beginning to wonder if PaulBx1 tried to run the 5.0.0 DVD using the linux and minirt.gz files from the 4.0.2 CD. If so then I would suggest updating these files on his hard drive and see how it goes.

ICPUG