Kiosk Knoppix for public libraries.

[adamm]

I am the systems administrator for all seven libraries in my parish here in Louisiana, and I think it would be great to remaster Knoppix into a kiosk version with basically a web browser, educational software, and a word processor to roll out on public access machines. I would want to remaster it without all of the network tools that could be dangerous if they fell into the wrong patron's hands, and remove unnessicary programs. I could save the IP addresses and printer settings on a floppy, and have self contained (patron proof) public workstation.
Before I reinvent the wheel, does anyone know of a remastered version of Knoppix that is setup in a configuration like this for general public use. If not, I might give this a try and pass it on to others that could get some use out of this too.

[aay]

Kiosk mode is supposed to be introduced to KDE so when it makes it into KDE it will be in Knoppix. That should be with KDE 3.2

[eadz]

Kiosk mode is supposed to be introduced to KDE so when it makes it into KDE it will be in Knoppix. That should be with KDE 3.2

It's already there in 3.1, although I think it will be improved with 3.2 ( like everything else :) )

[Henk Poley]

It's already there in 3.1, although I think it will be improved with 3.2)
Nice (http://developer.kde.org/documentation/other/index.html)

[aay]

Kiosk mode is supposed to be introduced to KDE so when it makes it into KDE it will be in Knoppix. That should be with KDE 3.2

It's already there in 3.1, although I think it will be improved with 3.2 ( like everything else :) )

You're right. I think GUI configuration is to be introduced in 3.2.

[aay]

Ok, here's a link that may be helpful on this topic.

http://webcvs.kde.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/kdelibs/kdecore/README.kiosk?rev=1.23&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

[A. Jorge Garcia]

I use KNOPPIX CDs in class every day (teaching AP Comp Sci) precisely because the student can't change anything on the CD. So who needs Kiosk mode?

Regards,

[adamm]

I use KNOPPIX CDs in class every day (teaching AP Comp Sci) precisely because the student can't change anything on the CD. So who needs Kiosk mode?

Regards,

In a library situation, you would not want your patrons to have use of all of the more powerful tools available on the Knoppix cd. Espically those who have some knowledge of how to use them. This would be a CD that would boot up into KDE and just have a browser and an office suite. Very basic setup just for a public access workstation. In the wrong hands with the default software included on the knoppix CD, it could be a huge security risk.
I'm just thinking... browser, education software, office suite. Everything a public access workstation in a library needs, nothing more.
I guess the problem would be preventing the smart ones from installing anything they want anyway into the ramdisk :wink:

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Try www.morphix.org - they have MORPHIX-KDE which, I think, does not include a lot of these security issues. MORPHIX is also designed to be easy to modify (add apps to) without remastering.

Regards,

[eadz]

Try www.morphix.org - they have MORPHIX-KDE which, I think, does not include a lot of these security issues. MORPHIX is also designed to be easy to modify (add apps to) without remastering.

Regards,

You plug morphix a hell of a lot, but the security issue was that witout Kiosk mode a user can run any command.

I doubt very very much that if you run Morphix-kde you cannot run any commands!!

[adamm]

Yep, the problem is that I wouldn't want someone running netcat or nmap on one of the public workstations. I realize that nothing is %100 secure, and that if they wanted someone could install to the ramdisk, but I was just thinking it would be cool to make a kiosk knoppix that we could pop into the public access machines with only a browser, office suite, and maybe a few educational apps. Knoppix just brings us one step closer to a bullet proof public access workstation.
I've havent tried morphix yet, but I'm addicted to Knoppix. I've handed out more copies than I've kept. :wink:

[A. Jorge Garcia]

As a derivative of KNOPPIX, MORPHIX is very nice if you want to customize your CD but don't have all the resources necessary for a full-blown remaster.

MORPHIX is modular. It comes with a base system which is very small and contains just enough to boot up and auto detect just like KNOPPIX. Then you could add your KIOSK apps to it and set it up just the way you want.

I'm not plugging MORPHIX, I just think its a possible solution to the KIOSK problem.

Its modular design is, IMHO, very innovative.

Good job, Alex!

Regards,

[SolKarma]

Here's an excellent application of the Linux kernel combined with Dillo.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2869412121.html

Bascially,

Anyone who has some gumption and smart, then that person could make a nice business using a re-mastered Knoppix combined with the ideas from that article.

Also, check out the 'on-the-fly' mastering of RxLinux. While not related directly to Knoppix, the idea behind RxLinux is cool.

One could have a business, say a 'Kiosks-R-US' business whereby you design some generic kiosk systems, e.g., library kiosk, Internet cafe kiosk, etc.

Then you sell a re-mastered Knoppix from a online configuation, i.e., customizing service. Simply, a person points their browser to your web based configurator (easy to build in say, Zope + Python). They choose their kiosk model, e.g., library kiosk. Your site dispatches a pre-made re-master to them via a link, after they pay you.

Of course, for more customization levels, you could charge more money, until someone gets to the 'ultimate customization' level, which would be an a la carte configurator. Simply, you would have to tweak your system to support the feature.

Good luck!

[paradocs]

Hello all,

adamm's request for a patron proof public
workstation is a great match for KNOPPIX.

Good luck with the security part, especially with
respect to internet filters. Would a non internet,
no connection, no hard dirve kiosk be of siginificent
value to patrons/students?

My contribution is to suggest a very inexpensive
way to let patrons save their work, to work at home,
or to work at another location. With the addition
of a second CD device which is read/write, persistent home
can be saved. Rebooting with the CDRW in place will
bring up all the users files. With the same version of
KNOPPIX the patron can work at home or on almost
machine with a CDRW.

USB storage stick are more expensive, easily lost, not
as easily backed up as a few CDRW disks.


Althought it is not well tested, the method I have come up
with is posted under burn_home in TIPS and TRICKS. I
am working on this to make it user friendly.

Best Wishes
paradocs

[adamm]

adamm's request for a patron proof public
workstation is a great match for KNOPPIX.

Good luck with the security part, especially with
respect to internet filters. Would a non internet,
no connection, no hard dirve kiosk be of siginificent
value to patrons/students?


The internet filter we have under control. We are using a hardware based filter at the router.
The hard part will be bringing the distro down to it's basics for public use. Most of the patrons that use the comptuers have little to NO computer skills what so ever, but for some reason they feel the need to HAVE to use the internet. (I have seen people come in to do research for a report and want to find ALL of the info online, and have never heard of a search engine, and have barely used a mouse before!)
Almost all of them have no computer at home. and CD burning is something that probably most have never done.
Most people just want to come in and look up DragonballZ, the WWF, and print pictures of Rap artists from MTVs website. I have seen people come in to type up legal documents using Microsoft Creative Writer which is meant for 7 year olds. They also HATE it when you SHOW them the nice shiny book right next to them with the index that has all the answers about how to do everything in MS Word like "center" and "bold", they would rather you "do it for them" which I refuse. I will often explain to them how, and make them do it so they will learn something and take that knowledge with them. If I do it it for them, it does them no good.
Now me personally as a Knoppix user, I think you have a great idea going, but as long as the patrons can get to the pokemon website, and print 50 copies of a picture of "puff daddy" that they swear they did't, the public will be happy. :wink:

Sometimes I even think that if I did use Knoppix as a Kiosk, the CD would be stolen by the next day. (you laugh, but someone took my etherboot floppy out of my LTSP terminal that we use as a card catalog, and I had tape over the drive! Won't that be a nice surprise when they try to use a bootrom disk somewhere to save files on!)

Sorry if this is harsh, it feels like a monday. :?
I shouldn't be this cynical for 23 years old. :wink:

[A. Jorge Garcia]

BTW, if you use the Poor Man's Dual Boot, you have all of the KNOPPIX CD available on hda1. In other words, the user can mount hda1 but as read only as if it were the CD.

Regards,

[reub2000]

Um, you know how easy the remastering is? Very easy. And anything harmful, should be root only.

Just don't make them like our school comp, basicaly, only shortcuts to ie and office, no right clicking on the desktop or in folders, and a filter that blocks a lot including free hosts.

[beajedi]

I don't really understand the readme on the KDE website. Where exactly is the desktop config file? I'm trying to make a kiosk CD as well....

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Um, you know how easy the remastering is? Very easy. And anything harmful, should be root only.

Just don't make them like our school comp, basicaly, only shortcuts to ie and office, no right clicking on the desktop or in folders, and a filter that blocks a lot including free hosts.

OK, this sounds like my school! They recently blocked AOL so everyone is up in arms. I left AOL long ago for a free email server (lycos) and free webhost (tripod.com and geocities) - that's all I used AOL for anyway, AOL content (oxymoron?) be damned! Now they know how I feel as free email servers have been blocked at my school for some time now....

I can't stand these damned filters! How do you redefine the proxy server to bypass the filter???

TIA,

[paradocs]

Hello all

The internet access is the tough issue.
As far as a kiosk, KNOPPIX is almost ready made.

Two issues are 1) root access and security and
2) modifying the desk top to match the patron
or student.

If the filter hardware cannot be breached,
(assuming A. Jorge Garcia doesn't get his answer)
the coumputer has no hard drive, and the only
only connection is to the "sanitized" internet --
then do you keed to block root access and
the tools there? Or am I missing something?

KDE menu can be easily edited to the desired
level, saved and restored with each boot.

Best Wishes,
paradocs

[Ghandalfar]

You would proabobly want to remove some tools like nmap and ettercap to be sure that you're not giving them utilitys to hack around or outside your network.

I was wondering - can it be done so that /home couldn't run binarys.

[adamm]

Couldn't they just install to /ramdisk or /var.
I guess they would need root to do that.
I think /home not being able to run binaries is a great idea and might solve the problems with someone downloading ettercap, nmap, or john and using on our network.

[reub2000]

You would proabobly want to remove some tools like nmap and ettercap to be sure that you're not giving them utilitys to hack around or outside your network.

I was wondering - can it be done so that /home couldn't run binarys.

mount -o rw /dev/hda1 /mnt/hda1
mkdir /mnt/hda1/knx
mkdir /mnt/hda1/knx/source
mkdir /mnt/hda1/knx/source/KNOPPIX
cp -Rp /KNOPPIX/* /mnt/hda1/knx/source/KNOPPIX
mkdir /mnt/hda1/knx/master/KNOPPIX
cp /mnt/cdrom/KNOPPIX/* /mnt/cdrom/knx/master/KNOPPIX
chroot /mnt.hda1/knx/source/KNOPPIX

apt-get remove nmap
apt-get remove ettercap


Not that hard, to remove those pesky packages you don't want.

[Loper]

...I think it would be great to remaster Knoppix into a kiosk version...
Here's another resource that I ran across. Some of this stuff may be useful:

"Setting up an internet kiosk" http://stlouis-shopper.com/~jtjsoftware/kiosk/kiosk-links.html

[paradocs]

Greetings,

Thanks for the link. KNOPPIX simplifies the kiosk setup.

As for adamm's concern of losing the disks --
with a large case the CD could be hidden inside. Just leave
enough room for it to eject and load! Maybe the floppy
could have a string with a large block of wood attached --
in the method of bathroom keys. :D
Well if they did manage to get the whole computer out under
their coat they woud be in for a shock to find it did not
even have a hard drive.

Best Wishes,
paradocs

[adamm]

Thats funny! I'm picturing a floppy disk with a hubcap attached to it :lol:
Great link though, i'm going read into it.
Knoppix has great potential as a kiosk though.
I like getting everyone's opinion on this, and there have been some good ones.

Thanks!

[Ghandalfar]

You don't need to run it off cd. Just use Terminal client and have server hidden somewhere with no public access on it. You'll need network connectivity.

Then find a network card with PXE boot room on it or sth similiar and flash it. That way your computer won't need a cdrom/floppy for running knoppix.

I guess you'll still want to provide it, so users can save their documents to floppy and/or read it from cdrom.

[A. Jorge Garcia]

Yup, that's why I use the Poor Man's Dual Boot with FastDOSbootfloppy. This bootfloppy leaves a lot of room to store user files.

See these links:
FastDOSbootfloppy
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2273

Poor Man's Dual Boot
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2192

Regards,

[paradocs]

Greetings team!

We have had some discussion of what to
exclude and lock-out. How about some
things to include?

I have done work in the filed of dyslexia.
Yes, some library patrons can't read! (at least well)
Non Open Source software is very expensive.

An earlier version of KNOPPIX had festival
(a text to speech reader) which has been
dropped. It is a large package so I understand
why -- but should be included in a remastered
kiosk version.

Scanning and OCR is present but need work to
make it simpler.

The old yellow 4 track tape cassette units for the
blind and dyslectic are hanging on. That's because
they are so hard to use and so bad that publishers
of copyright material don't feel threatened. Ogg
sound files made by volunteer readers would be
a nice project -- provided copyright and fair use
laws are respected.

The xmms and sound players on KNOPPIX have one
serious problem. When listening to a 10
hour book and stopping, the player does not resume
where you left off. Winamp has a nice plugin that
worked well. Is there a good way to listen to talking
books for KNOPPIX? I am trying
mpg321 -v /home/knoppix/my_mp3.mp3
but I don't know how to automatically save the
audio frame count when I quit. Any ideas?

Best Wishes
paradocs

[Henk Poley]

The xmms and sound players on KNOPPIX have one
serious problem. When listening to a 10
hour book and stopping, the player does not resume
where you left off.
Huh? Maybe you should hit the pause button? Not to sound smartass, but that button looks like ||.

But, I guess you wanted to hardwire the stop to pause?

[paradocs]

Hello Henk Poley and All

The problem with talking books is that a 7 to 10
hour mp3 or ogg file is listened to for 15 to 60
minutes, ie during a class, a commute, or in my
case dring a daily sauna.

Well, when you shut xmms off or reboot the computer
it always starts over. Leaving the program on
pause does not cut it. A work around is to use
the jump "j" command and copy the time
mark to a clipboard and type it back in when needed.
Winamp has a nice plugin that resumes the
file where you left off when ever you restart it.

What is needed is a "time" book mark so you
can resume and also jump to your desired chapter.

I am making good progeress with the command
mpg321 -R dummy
and the program expect.
But I need to know more language
commands (simply presented please)
to get expect to snag and save the time
and frame in a file.

There is great potential for inexpensive
software for aural learners.

Best Wishes
paradocs