To keep me from HDD installing, explain ...

[pterandon]

... why my 5.3.1 live CD experience is so much more satisfying than that of kubuntu HDD installed?

1. I've used the ubuntu package management system to download a half-dozen programs which purport to be about the showing of videos. (I create MPEG-I's as a hobby as 3D animator.) Nearly all of them won't do it, including Kaffeine. (Kaffeine on more than one other live CD does however.)

2. I've used the ubuntu package management system to download a half-dozen MP3 players, and Amarok notably among them doesn't play MP3's. (Amarok however will do so in the version that comes with several other live CD's).

3. The ubuntu package management system only has Blender up to 2.43, but 5.3.1 Knoppix has 2.45.


Now, if the answer were "because Debian's package management system is cooler / better maintained /less paranoid about licensing issues than ubuntu's", then hey I'll install Debian on a box. I was militantly opposed to Debian because of all the things it did not "come with", notably madwifi, when I started tinkering with linux in 2005.

If the answer were "because of the blood sweat and tears of Klaus to hand-craft a system," then okay maybe you have a point.


Ironically, I went to bed saying, I'm gonna HDD install 5.3.1, but I remember that guy with the dog as an avatar saying not to. I'll go ask him to defend his reasons tomorrow morning. Thanks for that FAQ:
http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/HD_Install_Warning_not_to_do_it

[cbagger01]

If you want to do a HDD installation, go ahead.

Your computer won't burst into flames if you do this. If you are unhappy with the install, simply wipe the partition and install a different OS on your hard drive.

I am not sure about the latest version, but KNOPPIX is usually a blend of software packages that are taken from different Debian repositories (IE: "stable" vs "testing" vs "experimental", etc). It also contains some custom Knoppix scripts for hardware autodetection and to enable the OS to run from a CD or DVD disc.

The advantage of this "blend" is that you get the newest (mostly stable) bleeding edge version available for most software programs.

The disadvantage is that you should avoid doing a DIST upgrade on a Knoppix HD installation because it will most likely fail or create problems due to the fact that it is not based on a single distribution version (IE: all "testing", or all "experimental").

There are also a few quirks from time to time such as some network cards not being detected properly after a HD install is performed.

So, in summary:

If you want to give it is try, go ahead and do a hard drive install.

But if you want a stable Linux distribution where the entire operating system can be upgraded in-place to a newer version of the OS, get the latest version of Debian or Ubuntu. It will take more time to install because you will need to make a number of decisions such as "what software do I need on my system", as opposed to Knoppix that is basically a dump of the OS and software that is already present on the LiveCD or LiveDVD.

[Harry Kuhman]

As the guy with the dog icon who crusades against installing, I actually agree with cbagger01, try it and see for yourself. But keep an open mind in doing the test, and be willing to say "it shouldn't be this bad" (if it turns out bad) and be willing to wipe it off in that case and try something else (I would suggest the testing version of Debian, but that's far from the only valid choice). I would add to this to be sure to do a fair amount of testing, actually install more and significant software during the testing and see if it impacts other packages. Don't live with the system for six months, make lots of bookmarks and other changes that cause you to not want to give up, and then start complaining about problems because Knoppix is not a pure distribution and is known to not upgrade cleanly.

The new installer may clean up some problems, there were known problems with the old one that just never got fixed. But the underlying problem of Knoppix being a mix of versions still seems to be there.

One could read through the over 4400 topics in this forum and the over 19,000 total posts to get a better feel for the problems that people who have tried to install Knoppix have faced. Or one could just ask why so many problems have been posted. You are not going to find a lot of people who post about how good their Knoppix installs have been, most posts are about problems seen, and many of them are about the same problem, year after year.

I would be very interested in hearing about any valid reason for "installing" Knoppix though. As far as I know there are no special NIC drivers or other things in Knoppix that you can't get with pure Debian (with the obvious exceptions like the Knoppix wallpaper and the female startup and shutdown voice). Any application in Knoppix and any driver should be available with Debian, and you can get them without having to have gigs of applications that you don't want or use included also. Yes, it would take a little time to type in all of the apt-gets for all of the Knoppix packages (one might want to create a script from the package list and let it run over night), but making the choice to install exactly the applications that you want and use seems to me a much better (and safer) choice.

[OErjan]

ok, here is how i would get most available codecs and players in a pure Debian install (just now i run Slackware current (downloaded and installed it tuesday) and Debian lenny (http://www.us.debian.org/releases/testing/) on most my machines.

also adding repositories to the apt repository list is not much trouble, I got Mplayer and all codecs needed that way, same with audaciopus (audio)...

if you want to "apt-get install" mplayer add one of the following to your /etc/apt/sources.list (preferably choose the line with the one you have)

Stable: deb ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian/ etch main

Testing: deb ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian/ lenny main

Unstable: deb ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian/ sid main

and DEFINETLY


deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org stable main
or
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main

and if you want more options add "non-free contrib" at end of each line in sources.list, like this;
Testing: deb ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian/ lenny main non-free contrib

now you should be able to install MUCH more in a "pure" Debian and you should also get mp3 and most other media (some encrypted stuff is NOT supported without of tinkering) by just typing
apt-get install programname-version and hitting enter.

EDIT
if you want to search for something try
apt-cache search program
more here (google is good)
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-search.en.html
/EDIT

if that is not enough you will find codec packages on the net for mplayer. same goes for most other players.

here you have a site i found describing how to install latest Mplayer. found it just now using google, looks right but...

http://www.princessleia.com/MPlayer.php

here is a second (non Debian) site on installing Mplayer http://www.debianadmin.com/install-mplayer-in-debian-sargeetch-and-sid.html

here is the original mplayer site
http://www.mplayerhq.hu

i would recommend installing lenny and

[Remember]

Hi
I new user knoppix 5.3 live cd.
My problem is when start knoppix with dvd live working my thinkpad T40 very good. And now I install Knoppix on HDD and i not satisfied, where is effects? sound dont work?

Who can help me?

Best Regards

[Harry Kuhman]

... and i not satisfied, where is effects? sound dont work?......Who can help me?...
Well, you can't say that you were not warned. There are many many threads that offer insights to just this kind of problem, I suggest reading this one (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28822) and seeing if it doesn't doesn't sound familiar. Also, consider the advice of the great philosophers Nelson (http://www.jahozafat.com/0074023857/MP3S/TV_Shows/Simpsons/ha_ha.mp3) and Mr. T (http://www.geocities.com/matt_nyc/ateam/Soundbites/ba_ipitythefool.wav).

[knopnet]

count me in with the naysayers. as of right now, zero_work_needed needs work.

[pterandon]

In some ways, this is like Florida residents' attitudes towards intra-US immigration. They'll spend millions of taxpayer dollars advertising Florida as the ultimate vacation destination but be surprised when many people actually want to move there.

In short, Knoppix 5.3.1 as a live CD is a far superior experience than that of Kubuntu 7.10 HDD-installed. Given the limitations of the particular box and brain I happen to be stuck with. It "comes with" applications I've never heard of and don't see in the usual ubuntu (/Debian?) repositories. It comes with fully-functioning applications whereas the ubuntu repositories give me crippled versions of them. It comes with newer versions of apps than I can find in the ubuntu reps.

I have Knoppix 5 (.01??) HDD-installed on one of my computers. It works fine, once I fixed a permissions problem in the USB-stick mounting thingy. But somehow over about 18 months, I "lost" my root access, so I haven't upgraded anything in ages.

All that being said, this is a most useful thread. It's perhaps worth a try of naked Debian on my junk computer with all those sources that OErjan mentioned. And Harry, I think I've run into that dist-upgrade problem once or twice with Knoppix and/or Kanotix installs. Maybe I'll try testing.
THANKS.

[Harry Kuhman]

...... It "comes with" applications I've never heard of and don't see in the usual ubuntu (/Debian?) repositories. It comes with fully-functioning applications whereas the ubuntu repositories give me crippled versions of them. It comes with newer versions of apps than I can find in the ubuntu reps........
I have looked at Ubuntu/Kubuntu but was very unimpressed with it, particularly the sad excuse of a "Live CD/Live DVD". But as to Debian, is there something that you find in Knopix that you can't easily install in Debain? I generally assure people that they can, it has always been this way for me, but if I'm wrong I would like to know.


... But somehow over about 18 months, I "lost" my root access, so I haven't upgraded anything in ages....... Maybe I'll try testing.
I would think loss of root access and inability to upgrade anything would be a problem. You do make references here to newest versions of software. I choose to run the "testing" version of Debian. I think the choice of the name is unfortunate, it's certainly as stable as any software is (much more so that purchased Microsoft software), and it's much more up to date than "stable" Debian, which I would only use for servers or similar systems. Having the newest bleeding edge software isn't important to me, I'm still too far down on the Linux learning curve to wonder if a problem I'm having is do to an experimental install or my own failings, even though I know it is likely to be my own fault. If having the newest version of software is important to you then you might want to run the bleeding-edge version of Debian. I expect it's still pretty good, and should give you access to newer products much faster. And, of course, if new software is important, then Knoppix isn't such a good choice. We do now have a fairly current release, but we have seen how long it can be between Knoppix releases. And because of the way everything is tweaked together, even when a Knoppix release comes out, it can contain some software that is already out of date. This is a design choice that has worked very well for the Live CD (apparently now Live DVD only), but may not be as good of a choice for hard disk installs.

[pterandon]

But as to Debian, is there something that you find in Knoppix that you can't easily install in Debain? I generally assure people that they can, it has always been this way for me, but if I'm wrong I would like to know.

Kaffeine and Amarok can be effortlessly installed in Kubuntu. Kaffeine however does not play MPEG-I's, and Amarok does not play MP3's. There's not even a pedantic warning of why. Just refuses. I assume it has to do with licenses. I'm talking of course about the version of these apps you can get from the ubuntu repositories. Of course, a half-dozen live CD's come with versions of those apps that are non-crippled.



Having the newest bleeding edge software isn't important to me, I'm still to far down on the Linux learning curve to wonder if a problem I'm having is do to an experimental install or my own failings, even though I know it is likely to be my own fault. If having the newest version of software is important to you then you might want to run the bleeding-edge version of Debian.

1) Have you seen the full complement of apps that come with Artistix? It's insane! I think it comes with more multimedia creation apps than exist on most repositories.

2) There's only a select few apps for which I dearly care about having the latest version. When I've tried to install apps myself, I sometimes end up with apps only executable from the vantage point of my /home folder, and often end up with junk subdirectories in my /home folder. It's not too hard to find examples on the web where folks have tried with no luck over the course of a couple of weeks to make-install a popular app.

[pterandon]

1) Ubuntu and Debian do in fact have independently maintained repositories, with different update schedules to popular software. That makes me a fan of Debian over ubuntu for that reason alone.

Package: blender (2.45-5)
http://packages.debian.org/unstable/graphics/blender

Package: blender (2.44-2ubuntu2)
http://packages.ubuntu.com/gutsy/graphics/blender


2) I HDD-installed Knoppix 5.3.1 on a junk, old computer and am apt-upgrading. No smoke yet.


3) Remember, the problem with audio upon HDD installation is a bug that goes all the way back to 5.0.
The workaround is shown in Bug #10 here:
http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Bugs/5.0DVD

Perhaps the fact that the bug is unfixed since 5.0 is a reason not to HDD install after all. :wink: