Don't Bother Us - Debian

[borgward]

You might not refer forum members to the debian forum. I got the following message from them after posting a question:

It's better to ask at http://www.knoppix.net/forum/

There's no reason why anyone here should know which parts of Debian are used in Knoppix, what repositories (if any) exist for knoppix, if hal is available for knoppix, how it might be installed, if it works ok etc.

[Harry Kuhman]

You are posting in the HDD install forum, so I assume that you tried to ask someone on the Debian forum about an installed form of Knoppix. If so you got of much kinder than most. They will not try to support the mismatched versions that make up Knoppix, and there is no reason that they should try to support it. If you want an installed Debian system, install Debian, not a system that is well know to break if installed on a hard disk. Then you will find out that the people on the Debian support forums can be extremely helpful (usually).

[borgward]

So why does Knoppix make installing it to HDD an available option, and why refer users to a forum that is not happy with getting their questions? It might be best to warn users that the Debian Forum does not appreciate their questions.

The reason why I have not installed is that I have been told that that their installations are problematic for anyone not an expert Linux user.

I must say though, that the Knoppix HDD install runs much better than any other Linux distro that I have tried on this laptop. Dell Latitude CPi 400 MHz PII, 256MB RAM. Fedora, CentOS, and Ubuntu are hopelessly slow to boot up.

[Harry Kuhman]

So why does Knoppix make installing it to HDD an available option, and why refer users to a forum that is not happy with getting their questions? It might be best to warn users that the Debian Forum does not appreciate their questions.
I can't give you any good reason for any install script still existing. When Knoppix first came out years ago, Debian was indeed very tricky to install. You had to have a lot of technical details about your hardware. People asked "If knoppix can do all of this hardware detection automatically, why can't Debain", and some wrote some scripts to copy some stuff to hard disk and talked Klaus into including them on the Knoppix CD.

Well, over the years the Debian people learned and the Debian install is much cleaner. Curiously, the Knoppix people have not learned, the bugs that showed up years ago still show up in these scripts. In some cases the issues may be trivial for well seasoned Linux users, like changing a permission on some file, but they are not trivial for someone new to Linux trying to install a Live CD to learn Linux. And a lot of the design choices made in Knoppix make it very non-trivial to ever install anything else or update anything on a Knoppix system. As I see it it's just not suitable for hard disk install.

Klaus did talk about just removing what he joking referred to as the "sometimes working install scripts" in a recent build of Knoppix, but sadly that didn't happen.

Who are you saying suggested that you go to the Debian forum and pester them? I certainly know that they will not and should not support you, so I hope that I was not the one who you think sent you. I advise people never to install Knoppix. If someone else told you to do it, reconsider the advice that you are getting from both of us in light of the current information.


The reason why I have not installed is that I have been told that that their installations are problematic for anyone not an expert Linux user.
In my experience the truth is exactly the opposite. I've installed Debian many times, and with few problems. I've even just installed it different ways as a learning experience to see how different optiions work. I would suggest the net-install or business-card install of the current testing version of Debian for most average users. On the other hand, Knoppix installs are certainly problematic for any but the most knowledgeable Linux users. I would never attempt it myself, and I've been active in this forum for several years (and what I've seen here is in large part the reason that I would never attempt it).


I must say though, that the Knoppix HDD install runs much better than any other Linux distro that I have tried on this laptop. Dell Latitude CPi 400 MHz PII, 256MB RAM. Fedora, CentOS, and Ubuntu are hopelessly slow to boot up.
I don't know why Knoppix would be better behaved than Ubuntu. I'm not a big Ubuntu fan, but it is said to be based on Debian just as Knoppix is. I'm not sure what your definition of "much better" is, but if you didn't have problems I don't expect you would be posting. I do expect that you'll see as good or better performance with Debian than you do with Knoppix, or the reason that you do not can be determined. And I expect that with Debain you can pick and choose what you want and install new things or update packages without risking breaking everything (which happens when you install or update with Knoppix).

[hal8000]

So why does Knoppix make installing it to HDD an available option, and why refer users to a forum that is not happy with getting their questions? It might be best to warn users that the Debian Forum does not appreciate their questions.

The reason why I have not installed is that I have been told that that their installations are problematic for anyone not an expert Linux user.

I must say though, that the Knoppix HDD install runs much better than any other Linux distro that I have tried on this laptop. Dell Latitude CPi 400 MHz PII, 256MB RAM. Fedora, CentOS, and Ubuntu are hopelessly slow to boot up.


What you have to remember is that knoppix is designed as a live distribution. Knoppix can be installed to hard drive, but you do need linux experience, its never meant for beginners. As such the knoppix repositories are a mix of stable, unstable and experimental branches of Debian.

The Debian Forum prefer questions about Debian, not knoppix (its a bit like owning a Ford car and asking questions about Renault). The HDD option is ideal for anyone wanting to experiment or tweak an installation.
Hope that helps

[borgward]

>What you have to remember is that knoppix is designed as a live distribution

>>That's abundantly clear.

>Knoppix can be installed to hard drive, but you do need linux experience, its never meant for beginners.

>>In that case, maybe not mention that it can be installed to the HDD. The experts will figure it out anyway. If it is stated that Knoppix can be installed to the HDD, a statement "Not meant for beginners" should be posted.

>knoppix repositories are a mix of stable, unstable and experimental branches of Debian.

>>Knoppix should be up front about that and should post such a statement.

>The Debian Forum prefer questions about Debian, not knoppix

>>Quite understandable, so why continue referring people to Debian, when Debian has stated that they do not want questions about Knoppix HDD installs?

>(its a bit like owning a Ford car and asking questions about Renault).

>>It is more like the Ford Dealer telling you that you can install Renault bits and pieces, and referring you to Renault for answers.

[OErjan]

uhm, we refer people to install Debian, NOT ask things on their forum.
also there are PLENTY warnings about installing Knoppix on hdd.

[borgward]

>we refer people to install Debian, NOT ask things on their forum.

>>http://www.knoppix.net/forum/index.php?sid=ffc84cb64eadf50c9e6569bf4d0873dd:

>>issues relating to HDD Installs. Once you have installed Knoppix, it basicly becomes debian, so you should check out www.debian.org for information.

[Harry Kuhman]

Klaus himself has said, in an interview with DistroWatch (http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=interview-knoppix), "I would not go as far as using it as a replacement for a regular Debian installation. Christian Perle, the author of knx-hdinstall, has done a terrific job writing a script that turns Knoppix running from CD back into a "normal" Debian installation. But the script is still in an early state: There is no software selection list, it can only install on a single ext2 partition, and the desktop icons are not automatically created for users. knx-hdinstall is already good for quick installations for a classroom." If you don't want to believe me, maybe you will believe the author. But I grow tired of warning people against all of the problems that are known to exist when you try to "install" Knoppix, just as I expect I would if someone keeps smacking his hand with a hammer and asking why it hurts. Look at how many posts there are in this forum from people having strange problems because they tried to install Knoppix. Does that not give you a hint that it might not be the best of choices?

[borgward]

I am not complaining about the installation. As I said before it is a better though not perfect solution for my slow machine. I pretty much like it warts and all.
I am just saying why tell people that it can be installed on the HDD and why refer people to Debian, when Dbian does not want to be bothered. It is understandable that they don't want to be bothered.