Forum policies, etc.

[paradox6996]

These forums suck nvm, having to wait for a mod to post my stuff is so stupid and inefficient, but thanx anyway!

[krishna.murphy]

These forums suck nvm, having to wait for a mod to post my stuff is so stupid and inefficient, but thanx anyway!

I'm sorry you're disappointed. I had to moderate OUT a large number of SPAM posts when I found this one, just a few hours after you posted it. I'd be very interested in knowing of a better way to have a civil discussion forum, without a salaried staff to keep it that way (or even with one!)

Cheers anyway!
Krishna :mrgreen:

[kl522]

I'd be very interested in knowing of a better way to have a civil discussion forum, without a salaried staff to keep it that way (or even with one!)


Isn't it obvious the better way of doing this ?

As you have mentioned in the other post where you only "promote" a poster after "a number of posts". I think it is obviously unnecessary. One will mostly know if a poster is going to post spam or not after his first post. After his first post, if it is a non-spam post, he should be (manually) promoted to a level where his posts will appear immediately. Do you have to wait until "a number of posts" to "promote" him ?

[krishna.murphy]

Isn't it obvious the better way of doing this ?

As you have mentioned in the other post where you only "promote" a poster after "a number of posts". I think it is obviously unnecessary. One will mostly know if a poster is going to post spam or not after his first post. After his first post, if it is a non-spam post, he should be (manually) promoted to a level where his posts will appear immediately. Do you have to wait until "a number of posts" to "promote" him ?

I guess I'll have to leave the question to others. I'm pretty new at this stuff, and have little of the experience needed to really get into it. I do know that the past has shown that MANY other mechanisms were inadequate, and as I mentioned, there are still spammers trying hard to muck up the waters. I'm pretty sure a "one post" rule would not deter spammers at all, though.

Ciao!
Krishna :mrgreen:

[kl522]

Do you also purge or delete the account if an account is used to spam ?

[Harry Kuhman]

.... I think it is obviously unnecessary. One will mostly know if a poster is going to post spam or not after his first post. ...
I fought spam here under the old forum software (and wiki software) for years. You dangerously underestimate the lengths that spammers go to. I've seem a vast range of spam, ranging from blatant porn posts including graphic porn images in the first post to completely innocent looking posts that the spammer made only to come back months later and edit to include their porn links. I have seen many cases of this. A spammer is hardly beyond making a dummy post if he learns that is all that is required for his account to be able to freely post their advertisements and malware attacks. It is a small imposition to ask that new user posts be verified long enough to conform that the user is a valid community member, and the reduction in spam attacks more than justifies it. Moderators should also be keeping an eye out for posters making non-informative noise posts (one isn't all that unusual, but when a new user's first dozen or so posts all read like "that's interesting" or "thanks for posting that" it should raise suspicion. Maybe too many posts complaining about anti-spam policies might even draw attention. ;-)

[krishna.murphy]

Thanks for your intent focus and energy! Your contributions show that you are a sincere person, and having them make this forum great.

The question posed here, I think, goes "above my pay grade," so I leave that to others to reply. I have split this thread, moving these posts over to a new one in "The Lounge" - the topic really has no relation to HDD installation.

Ciao!
Krishna :mrgreen:

[kl522]

Moderators should also be keeping an eye out for posters making non-informative noise posts (one isn't all that unusual, but when a new user's first dozen or so posts all read like "that's interesting" or "thanks for posting that" it should raise suspicion. Maybe too many posts complaining about anti-spam policies might even draw attention. ;-)

That's definitely true.

But I am not asking the moderators to quickly promote a user just because he posted some innocent looking "noise-posts". In fact, such "noise-posts" should rather be treated as "spam" or intent-to-spam. We need not insult our moderators' intelligence, I think they are smart enough to pick up such "indications" from the posts. And these posters should be banned, or better, to have the account removed.

But I still have my views that I doubt anyone who posted such thing which includes words like "raid", "knoppix", "gentoo" and so on will subsequently turn into a spam. In the unfortunate event if if it turned out to be the case later, no matter how long you "quarantine" the account it will be the same.

[evenso]

I HATE spam.

I have a spam filter on my ISP's mail server and spam filters on my computers and I still have to sort through it sometimes.

I have never seen a forum without spam. The form where I last participated regularly had spam-itis. They recruited over a dozen volunteers to delete the spam that got through and they still couldn't keep up. The forum was getting miserable and everyone started arguing.

Do whatever you have to in the most cost efficient way. If I can help by waiting a bit for my first posts to show, I am honored to contribute so effortlessly to the effort.

I can't help but notice the paradox, this thread on spam has completely filled the new posts box, obfuscating new post much as spam might. :mrgreen:

[kl522]

Do whatever you have to in the most cost efficient way. If I can help by waiting a bit for my first posts to show, I am honored to contribute so effortlessly to the effort.

That's because right now you don't have any burning issues. Neither do I at this moment. But you have to appreciate that when people have burning issues, they want their burning issues to be read and replied immediately.



I can't help but notice the paradox, this thread on spam has completely filled the new posts box, obfuscating new post much as spam might. :mrgreen: Wow, how many posts are there in this forum in a day and you call these as "obfuscating new posts much as spam might. Then I seriously wonder if the forum designed to handle posts at all. :)

[Clinton]

kd522, thanks for your feedback.

Nobody has as much experience combating spam on this forum than Harry. For years he's been a superman in tracking spammers, deleting their posts and devoting a lot of his time and energy into keeping these boards clean of the thousands (millions?) of spam attempts we've had. All unpaid. I have huge respect for him.

Further, I've had to do a fair bit myself, In fact, we even had to move to a dedicated server because of the pressure from bots and spam bots slowing down the service for everybody else. At one point we were getting several thousand requests per minute (at peak times) with well over 90% of it being bot activity.

But it was becoming too much and I talked Harry into agreeing to move to this new forum software where we could automate a lot of the spam control. If it means that a new user occasionally (not always) has to wait for a few hours for his urgent question to be made public, that's a price I'm willing to pay to save several man hours a day even if those man hours were voluntarily provided - particularly because they've been voluntarily provided.

evenso, thanks for understanding. Occasionally, very occasionally, a well established member's post may be held up too. That's no reflection on the member and I'm trying to keep such hold-ups to the minimum. I don't believe it affects even one in a thousand posts at present.


Do you also purge or delete the account if an account is used to spam ?I follow a zero tolerance policy. Sometimes mods mark a thread for Harry or me to have a look at. I have never, repeat never, had to over rule them. If in their opinion something is spam then it'll get deleted and the account will get my special attention. Any potential new member reading this - bear it in mind when you get the urge to start a new thread with all your mobile phone "special offers" - it takes only one spam post. ;)

[evenso]

That's because right now you don't have any burning issues. Neither do I at this moment. But you have to appreciate that when people have burning issues, they want their burning issues to be read and replied immediately.

Well OK. Burning issues are always an issue.

9/10 of mine don't get resolved immediately though. 1/3 the time I bang my head against the wall, finally give up after days, then have an "oh yeah" moment. 1/3 the time I learn to live with it until it evolves out of the system (testing/unstable/experimental) or I stumble across something in reading or during an unrelated install/config.

Forum time is mostly slow reconstruction of the real issue or of my question.

However, always nice to think that cries in the dark will not go unanswered, although they often do. That is why I got on here and started posting now! ;)


Wow, how many posts are there in this forum in a day and you call these as "obfuscating new posts much as spam might. Then I seriously wonder if the forum designed to handle posts at all. :)Haven't been counting but my impression is fewer posts than my 7 hens used to lay eggs in a day. So, on my 1024x768 screen, with text set for failing eye-sight, I get about 6 posts in the new posts box. That'd do it.

Note: There seems a high ratio of lurkers/logged-in users to actual posters here. That says to me that the average Knoppix user may be very self-sufficient and a good researcher.

[krishna.murphy]

Well OK. Burning issues are always an issue.

9/10 of mine don't get resolved immediately though. 1/3 the time I bang my head against the wall, finally give up after days, then have an "oh yeah" moment. 1/3 the time I learn to live with it until it evolves out of the system (testing/unstable/experimental) or I stumble across something in reading or during an unrelated install/config.

Forum time is mostly slow reconstruction of the real issue or of my question.

However, always nice to think that cries in the dark will not go unanswered, although they often do. That is why I got on here and started posting now! ;) I certainly appreciate it!

Haven't been counting but my impression is fewer posts than my 7 hens used to lay eggs in a day. So, on my 1024x768 screen, with text set for failing eye-sight, I get about 6 posts in the new posts box. That'd do it. My observation is that it fluctuates a lot, depending on time of day and week. Just one good thread can have a bunch of posts in just a few hours - or we might not see much activity for a while.

Note: There seems a high ratio of lurkers/logged-in users to actual posters here. That says to me that the average Knoppix user may be very self-sufficient and a good researcher.Agreed, and IMHO, that's as it should be!

Cheers!
Krishna :mrgreen:

[Clinton]

I deleted a spam post today that brought to mind some comments made earlier in the thread about detecting certain keywords and approving posts if they used the right keywords within the text.

Anyway, here's that post I just deleted

Knoppix 6.2 is composed of Debian testing packages chanel handbags <link deleted> with special configuration scripts made by Klaus Knopper. You can always use Debian packages to update or upgrade your Knoppix system. Therefore one can find valuable gucci bags <link deleted> information in the Debian wiki. Sometimes it is useful to read the Ubuntu wiki, but there are differences between Ubuntu and Debian. If you want to add a package to Knoppix then you should use a package manager like synaptic or aptitude.gucci wallets <link deleted> They use the Debian package repositorys.Keeping this place spam free is not as easy as some people may think - spammers are constantly finding new ways and are even willing to spend time building up a few genuine looking posts first before spamming.

[klaus2008]

My original post was in the thread Broadcom b43 driver firmware download help http://www.knoppix.net/forum/threads/28253-Broadcom-b43-driver-firmware-download-help?p=119562&viewfull=1#post119562

Did someone change the content or was it a new post in another thread?

[kl522]

I deleted a spam post today that brought to mind some comments made earlier in the thread about detecting certain keywords and approving posts if they used the right keywords within the text.


You are taking what I said out of context and let me make it clear ( AGAIN ) what I said before in point form :-

1. I never proposed to "automate" the detection of spam based on keywords.
2. I only proposed we hasten the process of quarantine.
3. I would like to believe that when people make a first post, if it is not a spam, or has no intention to spam, then subsequently he will not spam. Thus we can use this to hasten the process of quarantine.
4. The decision of whether a post is spam is still a manual process. We do not insult the intelligence of the moderators. If moderators is in doubt, he could extend the quarantine period. So averagely speaking, majority of users get out of quarantine after the first post. Perhaps some 10% or less needs further quarantine.
5. If one ever makes a spam post, the account should be removed.

[ This is my second post. My first post did not appear. Looks like I am under quarantine now ]

[Clinton]

I would like to believe that when people make a first post, if it is not a spam, or has no intention to spam, then subsequently he will not spam. Thus we can use this to hasten the process of quarantine.
I'd like to believe that too, but the facts don't support it. It's often the case that someone makes a few non-spam posts first. Hence we can't work on the first post good principle. Also, if I automate removing restrictions after the first post, we'll get inundated with spammers who figure the system and make one good post just so they can then immediately flood us with several spam posts. Cleaning those posts is a major pain in the ass.

I'm always looking for ways in which to improve the board and make it more useful for members and if there's some way I can hasten the approval process of account and posts, I'm happy to take a look.

I consider you a valuable member, you are not under quarantine and there are no posts of yours in the moderation queue.

[Clinton]

klaus2008, thanks for pointing me to the original source. Yes, it looks like this wuchun (http://www.knoppix.net/forum/members/43977) character copied that, added a couple of keywords and reposted it in another thread.

Of course, I've dealt with that account. (Don't be fooled by the fact that he still seems to be around. I don't want to disclose too much of how we deal with these accounts, but rest assured that once someone spams his account becomes useless and he can't post again. His IP and other information is stored as well, that's in addition to it being passed to anti-spam agencies)

[evenso]

I'd like to believe that too, but the facts don't support it. It's often the case that someone makes a few non-spam posts first. Hence we can't work on the first post good principle. Also, if I automate removing restrictions after the first post, we'll get inundated with spammers who figure the system and make one good post just so they can then immediately flood us with several spam posts. Cleaning those posts is a major pain in the ass.

I don't pretend to knowledge of the spammer world but I would think it much like the pyramid sales world.

The actual spammers themselves are often the most duped of all, desperate to recover their ill-considered commitment of time/money, willing to go to illogical lengths, employ entire work weeks and deploy any acumen they have to discover some sort of profitable method of breaking through.

Who could be more evil than the little rats? The big rats who are spamming them into their sad and increasingly desperate situation. :mad:

[Harry Kuhman]

I don't pretend to knowledge of the spammer world but I would think it much like the pyramid sales world.

The actual spammers themselves are often the most duped of all,......
That's an interesting theory, but not supported by years of evidence.

We, of course, have dealt with many different spammers here, but over several years I was able to determine that the majority of our attacks (span, new accounts created for spamming, and even attempts to create banned accounts) could all be traced back to one individual or spamming organization with a vast bot army. We would get hit with hundreds of new account creations a day, sometimes approaching a thousand, with only a very few legitimate new members. By comparing IP addresses, e-mail addresses, and other factors, and coordinating our information with other forums (yes, we have ways to share this information) and even doing Google searches, I was able to determine that the majority of these attacks came from a common source. These would be for widely varying spam topics, including porn, drugs, cheap "goods", malware and viruses and more (even including "make money with your computer by spamming forums" schemes) , but most traced back to the same source. So your "most duped of all" theory doesn't hold up, this one spammer has been aggressively hitting us for years, and if anything has only rampped up the effort in recent years. Not what you would expect from someone who had been duped and was struggling to make ends meet.

[krishna.murphy]

I don't pretend to knowledge of the spammer world but I would think it much like the pyramid sales world.

The actual spammers themselves are often the most duped of all, desperate to recover their ill-considered commitment of time/money, willing to go to illogical lengths, employ entire work weeks and deploy any acumen they have to discover some sort of profitable method of breaking through.

Who could be more evil than the little rats? The big rats who are spamming them into their sad and increasingly desperate situation. :mad:

I claim no special knowledge of the spammers, too - but I do know that HUGE amounts of money are involved. Greed is one of the most seductive temptations there are, and open-source software is a way I see hope coming for the human race.

Buckminster Fuller wrote that (paraphrasing) It will become a privilege to be allowed to join a team doing "work", and no one will need fear that their basic needs will not be met. I think he may be right - he was right about a lot of things, though not all.

Cheers!
Krishna :mrgreen:

[evenso]

@ Harry Kuhman, Thanks for that unfortunate information about the sad depths of spamming.

Re: "Bucky" Fuller, haven't heard his name mentioned since the previous millennium! Nice to think of him again.

--
Kind Regards,
Freeman