PDA

View Full Version : Survey of CD "minimal" version by K. Knopper



Werner P. Schulz
09-23-2014, 11:08 AM
I've got the permission to quote Discussion? (Re: Knoppix 7.4.x CD) (https://lists.debian.org/debian-knoppix/2014/09/msg00019.html). You can answer within this thread.


Since it's quite a lot of additional work to create the stripped-down CD
version (it always means _losing_ some software in each new release
since space is limited), my idea (withoutout having announced this) was
to wait and see if there are actual complaints about the CD edition of
Knoppix >= 7.3 missing. Actually, this is the very first one, so I
guess that most people are happy nowadays with the DVD sized version,
and USB sticks large enough (>=8GB) are now affordable as alternative to
the vanishing DVD drives.

For computers that cannot boot from DVD or USB flash drive, but from CD
only, there is the "boot-kernel-only" CD iso inside the "KNOPPIX"
directory, which even fits on a 20MB Mini CD.

On the other hand, since I need a very small edition of Knoppix for
derivate projects every now and then, I do want to continue the CD as
well, but there would be a somewhat larger distance between releases.

Of course I would be happy to discuss this on the list: How important is
the CD "minimal" version of Knoppix to you, maybe someday really only as
a tiny rescue system, compared to the DVD edition?

Regards
-Klaus

utu
09-23-2014, 03:24 PM
.
Greetings, Werner.

As you know, I've always preferred the CD-size Knoppix iso.
It makes a fine 2 Gb LiveUSB, with persistence. I usually only
add Geany, gnome-system-log viewer and my own home-grown tweaks.

Given an 8 Gb USB, I can be in business even a little faster,
using a DVD-size iso, since I don't need to add Geany, et al.
I'm not aware of any boot time or execution speed differences
between my 2 Gb LiveUSBs and my 8 Gb ones.

Even the CD-size Knoppix has things I personally don't need,
so I can't complain. But it would, in principle, suit me better
if I could easily control what's in the LiveUSB.

Good luck on defining 'minimal'.

henk
09-23-2014, 03:30 PM
I am suing the dvd version but I'd rather have a recent version of the CD, because a 4GG KNOPPIX image works terribly slow on a usb flash drive.

Jeffery Mewtamer
09-23-2014, 03:55 PM
In most regards, I'm way outside Knoppix's target audience. I have no need for a live CD/DVD/USB, I'm quite comfortable with doing things from the command-line, and even with older CD versions, I found most of the pre-loaded software to be nnecessary bloat. I'd simply burn me a copy of the latest Debian LXDE CD1, do a minimal install, and manually add what I need via Aptitude except for one thing that Knoppix offers that no other distro, as far as I know, does: Out of the box accessibility to the blind via Adriane. I know the DVD version can be booted in Adriane mode via cheat code, and for a sighted person setting up a computer for a blind person, this is acceptable, but unless the knoppix boot menu is fully voiced, this makes it difficult, if not impossible, for a blind person to boot in Adriane mode unassisted, and I lack ready access to a sighted person knowledgeable enough to assist in such matters. I could deal with most releases only having a DVD version, but my needs dictate the need for an image that boots in adriane mode by default. An Adriane-DVD would meet my needs, and I wouldn't mind making the alterations of the default image to make Adriane the default boot mode if there was a guide. As for the Boot-only image contained within the DVD image, some more details on how it works might be helpful. On an unrelated note, how would one go about subscribing to the list since it seems to be a far superior source of news than the forums?

Werner P. Schulz
09-23-2014, 04:19 PM
On an unrelated note, how would one go about subscribing to the list
You can subscribe at Mailing List (https://lists.debian.org/debian-knoppix/) . But it is mainly a development list, not for user questions and you can read within the list without subscribing. Start reading the postings of this year at Februar (https://lists.debian.org/debian-knoppix/2014/02/threads.html).

alelondon
09-27-2014, 09:15 AM
CD size ISO would be nice.Less than 1.3gb ISO is many times needed(low bandwith, recycling not-so-old usb keys, etc.).Send LibreOffice and GIMP to the Install Components/Additional Software vault and promote it better. Autorun? And how about being able to download the "Components" beforehand for the offline masses?

CNK
09-29-2014, 01:10 AM
I don't usually join forums just to make a single post, but this has drawn me out. The last Knoppix version I burned to disc was V. 4.2 (which I also installed to HDD on my laptop to use in conjunction with Damn Small Linux, mainly so I can use the newer Firefox versions which can't be run with DSL). Today I decided it was time to get back up to date so I went through the mirrors searching for the new releases of the CD version (of course to no avail).

Somewhat frustrated, I searched around for a bit and finally came across this which affirmed my suspicions that the CD version had been discontinued.

Annoyingly, that's it for me and new versions of Knoppix then untill a new CD release is made. It would take me a few months downloading a 4GB DVD image bit by bit using my excess internet quota, and I can't be bothered (plus I like the extra compatibility of a CD anyway). I'm too stubborn to buy a DVD online (plus I don't want the hassle if it doesn't work).

Anyway, it's free software so I just take what I can get. I know that if I really want something else I should make it myself. But as this topic is in the forum I wish to make it clear that there was at least one person using the CD as their last grasp to both modern Knoppix and modern Linux in general.

wjp79
09-29-2014, 09:44 AM
Hello,

I use the CD version and remaster it with the kn-remaster scripts. I dont need all the dvd stuff, just a minimal CD. So I would say the minimal CD version is important for me. The DVD version would take too much time to create a iso. (kn-remaster) (do a lot of test and trial)

Marv
10-25-2014, 05:59 PM
Yes please, CD for me - everytime!
Knoppix is my "let's see" boot disk;
my investigations boot disk:
my (initial) problem solving disk disk;
my first choice rescue boot disk;
my dig windoze out of a hole boot disk;
my copy user data from dead computer boot disk;
my wipe and re-partition computer boot disk
... in short it's always the first boot disk i take out of my "bag of tricks".

TBH i don't want to have to worry if this particular computer can boot from DVD or USB - frankly, that's just one more complication that i can do without.

Give me a boot CD
with a good partitioning program (Gparted is great);
a half decent file manager;
a browser;
a desktop that doesn't use a lot of resources;
a usable text editor,
plus, ideally,
a GUI front end to install any other packages i might need
and i am a very happy bunny.

Previous releases of Knoppix have given me all that in spades and that's why Knoppix has been my "special forces" boot CD for a long time - the previous one was Lindows!

Please, even it you only give us the thing basic stuff that i have mentioned above, please, PLEASE reconsider and give us a CD version of the latest release(s).

jacksonon
10-29-2014, 06:31 AM
CD is much better when using the toram switch on low memory machines ... I have been running the live CD from memory for 202 days on my bedside laptop without restart or reset :) ...

Capricorny
11-04-2014, 11:08 AM
I just repeat what I have said elsewhere a few times: A minimal Knoppix would be very useful - but don't pretend that there is room for much in the way of standard applications with all bells and whistles. This will have to be managed by the user, I think.

utu
11-14-2014, 02:49 AM
.
I would like to propose that Klaus K view this survey from a different point of view.

Rather than assume we all need a DVD-size Knoppix, and ask 'Who needs a CD-version of Knoppix ?',
let's ask 'Who needs CD-size Knoppix? and, Who needs a DVD-size Knoppix?

I suggest everyone needs a CD-size Knoppix, almost no-one needs a DVD-size Knoppix, and
almost everyone would like some elements of the DVD-size Knoppix in addition to that
which the CD-size Knoppix provides.

Knoppix has a built-in procedure for combining individual isos which works elegantly so long
as there is no overlapping use of the same final memory locations. This built-in capability
is often used to provide additional material on CeBIT products.

It is conceivable, to me at least, that Knoppix might alternatively be provided by issuance always
of at least a CD-size Knoppix iso, and as time permits of the provider, additional isos which
add additional capabilities in packages each of 4 Gb or less. Said capabilities of the
CD-size iso and the totality of these additional isos amounting in the aggregate to that of
a former DVD-size Knoppix.

Knoppix currently may combine up to eight isos, two should suffice in principle to allow for
both a CD-size iso and a DVD-size adapter iso . But, it might be wiser to use more isos, each with
some some different but additive specialization. And I expect it might be possible to so apportion
the aggregate additional capabilities into separate isos such that no user may ever need
to actually implement the total aggregate.

This apportionment of isos with additive capabilites might also allow the provider
to delegate the programming of different isos to different subordinates.

Harry Kuhman
11-14-2014, 07:23 AM
While the DVD is nice and has lots of applications I agree that the CD is pretty useful to many people. Most people can't load the DVD to memory, at least not on all of their systems, as it requires systems with more than 4 gig of RAM. When working on older computers a CD could be a must. And a CD is a much better choice for the basis of other things rather than starting with a full DVD and trying to strip it back down safely. Maybe it is too late for the current system but I also hope that in the future Klaus will save a basic system that will fit on a CD before adding all of the applications to only fit on a DVD version.

Marv
11-14-2014, 02:44 PM
It would seem, and by an extremely healthy margin too, that CD's are the much preferred medium.

Please re-consider.

daYooper
11-21-2014, 02:19 AM
Attempting to install different distros of linux wont work using a dvd because it doesn't have anything but an old 24x cd player and not much horsepower P4 1.6ghz+268mb of ram. While I'm familiar with Ubuntu my 9-4 seems to be too scratched to do the job anymore. I hope this works for a replacement of xp.

otropogo
11-25-2014, 11:30 PM
I vote for a stripped down CD version, but ask for one option not available in the DVD version, the capability to save configuration settings (at least!) without first doing a usb-flash install. I note that Klaus's note mentions the possibility of PCs that can't boot from USB. Add to that the complications of hardware settings etc. that need to be tweaked, and you need some way of saving settings for an unfamiliar. I've never understood Klaus's objection to retaining the old system, in which settings and installed apps could be saved to a hard drive or other media separate. Has he ever explained this? But if that's an absolute, then how using Puppy Linux's option of installing to CD without finalizing the disk, and allowing configuration settings to be written to a separate file on the disk (preferably more than one to be offered as options on boot up).

philo
11-27-2014, 05:14 PM
I vote against a 'stripped-down' CD version.

No doubt Mr Knopper has more important things to do, and to offer us.

utu
11-27-2014, 05:55 PM
how (about) using Puppy Linux's option of installing to CD without finalizing the disk, and allowing configuration settings to be written to a separate file on the disk (preferably more than one to be offered as options on boot up).

That's a clever idea. I imagine that it may be because:

1. USBs have gotten so much cheaper, r/w so much faster, and may have so much more capacity than a CD; and
2. perhaps CDRs may not have as good a reputation for (re)wriiting additional material to the same device.

Of course, that may not help much if your rig doesn't do USBs. ;)

ICPUG
11-28-2014, 01:32 AM
I have been playing with my Poor Man's Install of 7.4.1. Previously, (7.3 and earlier), a Poor Man's install would ask if you want a settings file on first boot.If you said yes it got stored on the hard drive in the same directory as the Poor Man's.

With 7.4.1 this didn't happen. A settings file was not created. However, a look at the cheatcodes file on the DVD shows that there is a new cheatcode 'mkimage'. Use this and you will be asked if you want a settings file as before. After the file is created it gets used automatically without the need to boot with a cheatcode.

I know this is still not having the ability to boot with a CD/DVD and having a settings file on the hard drive but if you have to go to the hard drive to pick up a settings file then you might as well pick up the whole system from the hard drive (the Poor Man's Install).

ICPUG
11-28-2014, 01:51 AM
I should also respond to the topic of this thread. I personally prefer the DVD version because I like having all the programs available without (a) having to download and using up the image space or (b) working out how to use multilayers as mentioned by utu.

Nevertheless, I appreciate some people dislike the whole kitchen sink approach or do not have the bandwidth to download a DVD. For these people a CD version is a must.

I'm not sure what is so difficult about maintaining both options. The basic CD stuff goes in the KNOPPIX file. The additional stuff on the DVD could go in the KNOPPIX1 file on said DVD. Everybody happy with no extra development tasks.

utu
11-28-2014, 02:34 AM
I'm not sure what is so difficult about maintaining both options. The basic CD stuff goes in the KNOPPIX file. The additional stuff on the DVD could go in the KNOPPIX1 file on said DVD. Everybody happy with no extra development tasks.

Everybody but Klaus K.
He makes a point that making a CD version is extra work for him, and he wants to know if it's all that useful to anyone.
Some of us think it is, but it's surely a minor issue, given the DVD.
And you're right, I'll make my little KNOPPIX1 anyway, 'cause I hate recovering from a wiped-out read/write persistence file.
Cheers.

philo
11-29-2014, 05:12 PM
Everybody but Klaus K.


I rather think that the great silent majority is on his side.

Harry Kuhman
11-30-2014, 06:17 AM
I prefer to think that Klaus just asked a sincere question. He is making DVD versions now and simply asked if anyone still wants CD versions. It is extra work to release both versions. If no one really wanted the CD version then there would be little point in making it.

But while it is extra work, it might not be much extra work, particularly if he just makes a minimal CD version with a few key things (like app-get) and then moves on to make an application rich DVD version. I'm hoping his next question will be: "rather than loading the CD version to 700 megs, what applications do users really want on the CD version for system recovery, remastering, or other uses that you see for a CD size release?"

Marv
12-26-2014, 05:43 PM
I rather think that the great silent majority is on his side.Here in England, and probably elsewhere to, we have a number political parties who would just love to be credited with the votes of the "silent majority". Unfortunately, for them, we only count those who are willing to take the time and effort to actually vote. I am certainly not an expert but I believe that's how democracy usually works philo.

Marv
12-26-2014, 05:55 PM
p.s.
I would be happier, although i would still prefer a cd version, if i could at least find a link to this mysterious sort of basic version of releases that some posts have referred to, i.e. one that users can master themselves ... ideally for the latest, EACH latest, release.
I would really appreciate any help with this ... thanks for reading.

philo
12-27-2014, 06:06 PM
@ Marv (Post #24)

We only express views in this thread. This is a survey, not an election. We do not vote, Marv.

Marv
12-27-2014, 07:41 PM
@ Marv (Post #24)

We only express views in this thread. This is a survey, not an election. We do not vote, Marv.

I totally agree philo. We express our own views, not what we would prefer others to think.

Also, although we may not be voting, a survey, like an election, also works on numbers,
i.e. the numbers of the one's who have views on a subject and would like to express those views so they may be taken into concideration.

klaus2008
12-30-2014, 06:29 PM
There are still personal computers with older CPUs which have USB 1.1 suport and CD-ROM drives only. For those systems, it does not make much sense to use the bootonly CD with a USB stick. Since it is always stated that Knoppix will run on old personal computers I would expect a Knoppix CD in addition to the big DVD.

otropogo
02-05-2015, 04:00 AM
That's a clever idea. I imagine that it may be because:

1. USBs have gotten so much cheaper, r/w so much faster, and may have so much more capacity than a CD; and
2. perhaps CDRs may not have as good a reputation for (re)wriiting additional material to the same device.

Of course, that may not help much if your rig doesn't do USBs. ;)

The requirement of Knoppix usb-flash to remain writable and mounted for the entire session has proven to be a repeat disaster for me. I've had at least four such installations corrupted beyond repair.

The Puppy Linux USB flash installation, OTOH, which allows the user to utilize the usb flash media simply to boot with the linux loader, and then choose a configuration file and applications on any other medium, has been used by me thousands of times in several computers (as opposed to a few dozen boots with the fragile Knoppix usb flash installation), and I've only had on Puppy install go bad. I'd still be using puppy for 90 % of my online activity (as I have for several years) if it weren't for having to confine myself to a AMI UEFI crippled Asus laptop, for which I haven't yet found a way to boot puppy. Unfortunately, Knoppix doesn't do so well with it either. I can't boot from the Live-DVD (the BIOS simply doesn't recognize it as a bootable device), so I have to sneaker-net over to a non-UEFI Windows 7 PC in order to make a usb-flash install that will barely work (the AMI BIOS will not retain the boot priority settings, returning Windows to the top position automatically). Booting Knoppix has become a five minute exercise, and so I barely use Linux anymore, and instead work with the worst OS I've experienced since OS/2 Warp, Windows 8.x.

Werner P. Schulz
02-05-2015, 07:25 AM
The requirement of Knoppix usb-flash to remain writable and mounted for the entire session has proven to be a repeat disaster for me....Again a unreliable posting as your others in the past and it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

utu
02-05-2015, 05:26 PM
The requirement of Knoppix usb-flash to remain writable and mounted for the entire session has proven to be a repeat disaster for me. I've had at least four such installations corrupted beyond repair.

The Puppy Linux USB flash installation, OTOH, which allows the user to utilize the usb flash media simply to boot with the linux loader, and then choose a configuration file and applications on any other medium, has been used by me thousands of times in several computers (as opposed to a few dozen boots with the fragile Knoppix usb flash installation), and I've only had on Puppy install go bad. I'd still be using puppy for 90 % of my online activity (as I have for several years) if it weren't for having to confine myself to a AMI UEFI crippled Asus laptop, for which I haven't yet found a way to boot puppy. Unfortunately, Knoppix doesn't do so well with it either. I can't boot from the Live-DVD (the BIOS simply doesn't recognize it as a bootable device), so I have to sneaker-net over to a non-UEFI Windows 7 PC in order to make a usb-flash install that will barely work (the AMI BIOS will not retain the boot priority settings, returning Windows to the top position automatically). Booting Knoppix has become a five minute exercise, and so I barely use Linux anymore, and instead work with the worst OS I've experienced since OS/2 Warp, Windows 8.x.
There are several ideas worthy of independent threads here.
Unfortunately, they don't belong in Werner's survey thread.
I suggest you create one or more threads under General Support and get some responses that way.
And, it always helps to keep each thread focused on pretty much a single idea, not several unrelated ideas.
For example, there are several ways to insure against losing your persistence info; ask about that in another thread.

otropogo
02-05-2015, 07:25 PM
Again a unreliable posting as your others in the past and it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

In what way is my post (and any previous post of mine) "unreliable"? Your response amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack, since it says essentially only that this poster's statements are unreliable, without offering the slightest supporting evidence or even argument.

Please enlighten us in what way other posters' statements here are more "reliable" than mine?

As to your pretense that "it has nothing to do with this thread", why did you not address this same critique to the poster to whom I replied? Just on this page alone, I see several other posters "off thread", and I see no one else being admonished.

You are clearly not objective in carrying out your "moderation", and unfortunately, this is clearly reflected in the quality of the discussions.

Werner P. Schulz
02-06-2015, 02:33 AM
In the past you've posted so many terrible experiences with Knoppix, which has been frustrating and time wasting for you. It is hard for me to believe, that a user under these circumstances again and again try Knoppix instead to remain with his reliable Puppy Linux.

Posting #18 has been in response to your posting #16 and none of the other postings are out of the thread.

otropogo
02-06-2015, 05:48 PM
In the past you've posted so many terrible experiences with Knoppix, which has been frustrating and time wasting for you. It is hard for me to believe, that a user under these circumstances again and again try Knoppix instead to remain with his reliable Puppy Linux....

So this is your definition of "unreliable"? - anything that you find hard to believe? So, what exactly is your explanation for my 'unbelievable' postings?

For anyone reading this who might be interested in an antidote to Werner's vague paranoid suspicions, I have been repeatedly downloading and trying to work with dozens of Linux distros since approximately 1995. I can't remember all that I've tried, but the list includes Slackware, Red Hat, Caldera, Mandriva, Suse, PCLinuxOS, Antix, Mint, and CentOS. After a couple of disastrous consequences for my Windows system following on hard drive installs of Linux, I came across Knoppix, and have since limited my linux efforts to those distros capable of booting and running from external media.

I have tried various flavours of Puppy Linux, and used the Lupu/Lucid variant for several years. However, it had a fatal limitation - no ready access to updates or new apps from any major online repositories. Often one had to find a coder from the Puppy community to create a PET package for the purpose of installing a debian app. And for this reason, among others, I continued every year to try the latest version of Knoppix. Among the other reasons for my persistence is that I feel a loyalty to Klaus and Knoppix for his pioneering effort in making Linux easily accessible to ordinary PC users and because I hope he will eventually return to that ideal.

Some time ago, development of Lupu/Lucid Puppy ground to a halt, and the whole Puppy community is fragmented so badly that there's little hope of continuity of any given variant. But, I continued to use it until five months ago, when I found myself limited to the use of a single PC with a UEFI BIOS, which will not boot Lupu/Lucid.

And as I no longer have the time to experiment with a host of Linux distros, Knoppix has been the only Linux variant I've used (or tried to use...) since then.

philo
02-07-2015, 10:55 AM
Beyond 140 characters, rant becomes boring.

Marv
02-07-2015, 01:57 PM
Beyond 140 characters, rant becomes boring.
i really hope that you are joking philo.
if not, that's a very sad reflection of our times.

philo
02-07-2015, 03:46 PM
I just meant to say that if someone wants to air his/her frustration with Knoppix it is better to keep his/her posts short for us readers to pay attention.

Marv
02-08-2015, 11:50 PM
I just meant to say that if someone wants to air his/her frustration with Knoppix it is better to keep his/her posts short for us readers to pay attention.
The problem is, in my experience, whenever users ask for help using short posts, it usually leads to lots of helpers asking masses of questions with lots of other helpers jumping in having guessed at what they think is required.

p.s
The posting rules for most forums usually say something about including as many details as possible.
In 140 chars?

otropogo
02-09-2015, 04:54 AM
Beyond 140 characters, rant becomes boring.

Believe it or not, I'm not posting here to amuse the readers, nor to offend them (and certainly not to size my posts to fit philo's cell phone).

Posts lacking in detail are generally faulted for that, viewed with suspicion, and will gather disparaging replies, usually much less interesting to anyone and, only with luck, some posts asking for the missing details.

I post here on the assumption that there may be readers who are familiar with my problem and/or have a superior understanding of Knoppix/linux/PCs and may be prepared to offer me helpful suggestions.

I also persist in posting, albeit with much reduced enthusiasm and frequency, despite seldom receiving any helpful responses, because I am sure there are silent readers out there who will benefit from my reports. And I don't blame them for being unwilling to expose themselves to the kind of character assassination I've endured here.

However, when someone attacks my integrity, as Werner has [snip] done without basis, I'll certainly defend myself. If the resulting rant is boring, those who are bothered have only themselves to blame for silently tolerating this [snip] by the moderator.

If I may continue my rant just a bit further - no matter how brilliant Klaus Knopper's work is, it will ultimately survive only if he learns in good time to share the work with others, provide for a succession in its maintenance and development, and learn from the users.

[snip]

Marv
02-09-2015, 07:43 PM
[snip]
and now you've had a vasectomy :)

Cosmin3
04-12-2015, 05:38 AM
Hi.

Sorry for my bad english.

I use Knoppix for years, although I never burned the iso on a CD/DVD.
Thank you for such a great tool.

I use the CD version on USB flash/stick because it's faster and, even if I have a large one, I still need the extra space.
And I use the DVD version installed on internal HDD like a normal Linux installation.

So I would prefer both.
But I also think that the CD/minimal/stripped version should be be made by the user.
So, I would be happy to make my own custom stripped version using the DVD/complete version and proper tools + a good guide. Or, if someone else finds my version useful, I could upload it here or somewhere else so others could benefit as well.

Regards,
Cosmin

eionmac
09-07-2015, 08:08 PM
I confirm this CD use is also my 'kitbag' use. As I always try CD in problem machines before I try DVD.