Poor Man's Install Not Working in version 7-26 version

[bongski55]

Error is "cannot find file system" and reverting to very limited shell.
I wonder if it's only me?

[baldyeti]

works for me...

[bongski55]

works for me...

Lucky you! May I ask how it is installed? Is it in a vfat partition or a linux partition? Mine is in a windows(vfat) partition which worked up until version 0606.

[baldyeti]

One thing: do you boot from diskette? Don't forget the July releases have the
newer kernel, so you'll need to upgrade your boot diskette, or the kernel image
that loadlinux launches (that's how I work)

My installation uses /dev/hda1 fat32

I routinely download new ISO's and just extract the big compressed image
to C:\KNOPPIX\KNOPPIX. Has worked for 5 or 6 releases so far.
I really enjoy such simple upgrades to the latest and greatest.
Combined with persistent home and configs, this is amazingly smooth.
If only the same kind of setup was safe with NTFS, it would allow many
people to try linux alongside WinXP....
Oh well, that'll come in time. Knoppix as it is is already a godsend!

Let us know whether the kernel bump was the issue.

[Dave_Bechtel]

> If only the same kind of setup was safe with NTFS, it would allow many people to try linux alongside WinXP....

--If only M$ didn't force such a godawful, incompatible filesystem to be the default... :P I recently helped a friend reinstall XP for a client and we switched her from NTFS to FAT32 - and it sped up the system! Also, now we can do linux-based backups and restores on her system. 8)


One thing: do you boot from diskette? Don't forget the July releases have the
newer kernel, so you'll need to upgrade your boot diskette, or the kernel image
that loadlinux launches (that's how I work)

My installation uses /dev/hda1 fat32

I routinely download new ISO's and just extract the big compressed image
to C:\KNOPPIX\KNOPPIX. Has worked for 5 or 6 releases so far.
I really enjoy such simple upgrades to the latest and greatest.
Combined with persistent home and configs, this is amazingly smooth.
If only the same kind of setup was safe with NTFS, it would allow many
people to try linux alongside WinXP....
Oh well, that'll come in time. Knoppix as it is is already a godsend!

Let us know whether the kernel bump was the issue.

[garyng]

linux does support NTFS(at least read and overwritten), just that the driver choosen in KNOPPIX(1.x) doesn't like cloop(at least the last time I check). If the newer 2.x NTFS driver is included, there is no problem putting the large clooped image on NTFS partition, I have been doing it since March and never burnt a KNOPPIX CD since then.

[bongski55]

One thing: do you boot from diskette? Don't forget the July releases have the
newer kernel, so you'll need to upgrade your boot diskette, or the kernel image
that loadlinux launches (that's how I work)

My installation uses /dev/hda1 fat32

I routinely download new ISO's and just extract the big compressed image
to C:\KNOPPIX\KNOPPIX. Has worked for 5 or 6 releases so far.
I really enjoy such simple upgrades to the latest and greatest.
Combined with persistent home and configs, this is amazingly smooth.
If only the same kind of setup was safe with NTFS, it would allow many
people to try linux alongside WinXP....
Oh well, that'll come in time. Knoppix as it is is already a godsend!

Let us know whether the kernel bump was the issue.

I do not boot from diskette. I just copy the miniroot and the vmlinuz,together with the compressed file using winrar. I have been doing this since I 'discovered knoppix last april.Seldom burnt a cd everytime a new release comes out . I also use my poor man's install to install into hard disk.
Since I got this error I had to burn the latest to a cd but when I boot it I got this problem with my hard disk partitions not detected during boot up.
Luckily I still got a copy of the 0606 version so that is what I am using now both for hd install and the poor man's.
Incidentally the latest Morphix(0.4) also won't boot on my home pc but boots and runs okay on my office pc.
Common factor to morphix and latest knoppix is the 2.4.21 kernel. I believe all this problems are kernel related or hardware related or both.

[j.drake]

linux does support NTFS(at least read and overwritten), just that the driver choosen in KNOPPIX(1.x) doesn't like cloop(at least the last time I check). If the newer 2.x NTFS driver is included, there is no problem putting the large clooped image on NTFS partition, I have been doing it since March and never burnt a KNOPPIX CD since then.

Let me make sure I understand. NTFS is a non-issue with the newest versions of Knoppix??? If so, that's great news for me. I am very new to Linux, and one of the things that has made me rather nervous to fully implement Knoppix (or any other distro) is my reluctance to re-format or re-partition an NTFS drive that works reliably for me in WinXP, simply for the fun of learning about Linux. I don't know how many times I've read of the problems of Linux interfacing with an NTFS drive, particularly if that's where the MBR is.

For example, the following quotes from "Computer First Aid Using Knoppix" by Shock and Sullivan (don't have the link handy, but I linked from somewhere on the Knoppix site):

"3.6: Another Hard Drive or Partition

To recover data onto a hard disk, you will need to have either another hard drive or hard drive partition. The hard drive will need to be installed before starting Knoppix. NTFS (Windows 2000 or XP) formatted drives or partitions will not work. "

or

"C: Making a drive writable

You can not make an NTFS formatted drive writable (sometimes used for Windows NT, 2000, XP). "

or

"E: Saving Configuration

Saving configuration requires a floppy disk or a non-NTFS formatted drive."

Another site, IIRC, said something along the lines of "don't even think of saving to an NTFS disk."

Am I reading too much into your statement? Can I disregard the NTFS issue once and for all (since I am using the 7-26-03 release), or am I failing to grasp some important qualifications and limitations? Note that I have read data off of an NTFS drive, but I have not tried to save to one, nor have I been successful in getting Knoppix to recognize my main NTFS drive - at least not yet.

Oh, and Bongski, I apologize for the hijack, but I really wanted to clarify garyng's statement within its context.

[garyng]

I haven't downloaded the latest KNOPPIX so I don't know. I use a previous version of KNOPPIX but compiled my own kernel which I incorporate a new NTFS driver which I have no problem putting the big clooped KNOPPIX file on an NTFS partition(this cannot be done with the KNOPPIX kernel on the CD).

As for writing to NTFS partition, the new driver is quite stable in 'overwritten' but not freely write to NTFS partition. What it means is that I can say create a large file in window and then create a file system using the loopback driver on it, this is how KNOPPIX handle persistent home.

As for the MBR, I have it solved too(so long we are talking about NT/W2K/XP). I have patched an utility for GRUB which can be run under WIN32. What it means is that I don't have to touch any of the partition/MBR but can still install a copy of GRUB on a NTFS or FAT partition under Window and chain boot into it using the NT boot loader.

In this way, I can dual boot happily between various flavour of linux(all from GRUB) or XP without repartition my HD in anyway. I hate repartitioning which is why I went to such length to make sure KNOPPIX run happily on a M$ poisoned system(like the whole HD is formatted for NTFS).

[A. Jorge Garcia]

All:
Say it ain't so! I was going to do a poor man's install with the latest greatest KNOPPIX ISO this Sept when my new lab is installed....

Oh, you can druel now: 25 Pentium IV 2.4 Ghz, 778MB RAM, 120 GB HDD, I don't know the rest yet (sound, video, etc.) - but thank God I don't have to deal with those 2 labs anymore I had last year!!!

bong:
Well, the only time I've gotten an error like this in the past was because I had a bad copy of the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file or bad CD media or bad HDD media or an incomplete copy to the HDD (is your HDD full? is it too small?).

I have poor man installed all V3.1 releases of KNOPPIX and all V3.2 releases of KNOPPIX up to 2003.0606 without a problem. The only reason I've encountered these errors in the past is due to the fact that when I upgrade to a new release, I'm copying KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX to 50 PCs for my students' 2 computer science labs (so I do this alot) and I do so with very old (sometimes unreliable) hardware!

Also, you say that you've been able to poor man install MORPHIX too? I've never had success with that, how did you do it? Pray, tell, do!

j.drake: RED ALERT, CAUTION, BEWARE...
As to NTFS, I think that garyng's post spoke of updating the Linux NTFS drivers from the 1.x version that KNOPPIX uses to the newer 2.x driver. I imagine that means on a full hdinstall or a remaster, not the poor man's install. Right?

All:
BTW, the old script for a full Debian Linux install to a Linux partition was knx-hdinstall. Which directory was that in again?

Also, there's a newer script, right? What's it called, where do I find it and how do I use it??? If the poor man install won't work with the latest KNOPPIX ISO, I may have to break down and actually do a hdinstall. :?

TIA,

[Stephen]

BTW, the old script for a full Debian Linux install to a Linux partition was knx-hdinstall. Which directory was that in again?

Also, there's a newer script, right? What's it called, where do I find it and how do I use it??? If the poor man install won't work with the latest KNOPPIX ISO, I may have to break down and actually do a hdinstall. :?

TIA,

The new script is called knoppix-installer to use it you would just open a console window and put sudo in front of it then follow the normal steps to install the system. With it you can save the configuration used for the install to a file to use on different machines. Also there is a .knofig file that is created when you save the configuration that has options in it to seperate out the directories like /home, /usr if you want to put them on seperate partitions. I think the knx-hdinstall and the new installer are in /usr/bin but I'm not sure using locate knx-hdinstall or whereis you should be able to find them.

[Dave_Bechtel]

--Actually they should be in /usr/local/bin.




BTW, the old script for a full Debian Linux install to a Linux partition was knx-hdinstall. Which directory was that in again?

Also, there's a newer script, right? What's it called, where do I find it and how do I use it??? If the poor man install won't work with the latest KNOPPIX ISO, I may have to break down and actually do a hdinstall. :?

TIA,

The new script is called knoppix-installer to use it you would just open a console window and put sudo in front of it then follow the normal steps to install the system. With it you can save the configuration used for the install to a file to use on different machines. Also there is a .knofig file that is created when you save the configuration that has options in it to seperate out the directories like /home, /usr if you want to put them on seperate partitions. I think the knx-hdinstall and the new installer are in /usr/bin but I'm not sure using locate knx-hdinstall or whereis you should be able to find them.

[garyng]

j.drake: RED ALERT, CAUTION, BEWARE...
As to NTFS, I think that garyng's post spoke of updating the Linux NTFS drivers from the 1.x version that KNOPPIX uses to the newer 2.x driver. I imagine that means on a full hdinstall or a remaster, not the poor man's install. Right?


No. not hdinstall or remaster. What I did was the following :

1. create a loopback file system on a local drive
2. store the newly compiled modules here(/lib/modules/*)
3. copy the ntfs.o driver to the initrd
4. make change to linuxrc to load the ntfs driver, loopback driver
5. before linuxrc get into the actual init process, mount --bind my own module tree

In this way, I have been using my customized kernel for serveral version of KNOPPIX(the big clooped image) without remastering. In fact, I keep multiple copy of it so I can switch between them easily as there may be surprise from version to version(something work, something broken etc.)

Of course if there is only NTFS partition, the situation would be a bit complicated as it is not safe to create new files under linux on NTFS, an intermediate storage is needed. A USB CF reader(or floppy if the size is not too large) can serve this purpose as I can just copy the things that I made under linux to the CF(which is FAT) and copy them over to the NTFS partition under XP. But this needs to be done only once in a while, just the vmlinuz(should I choose to compile a new one) or may be the initrd(if I want to change the booting stuff).

[bongski55]

Hi Jorge,
Thanks for replying(At Last). I was really hoping for you to answer because I think you are the most experirence poor man's install user. I am just disappointed that you have not tried the latest version. Here are my answers:
1. I don't think my cd is defective. It works as a live cd. The problem on a live cd is that it does not detect my hd partitions. In the text that are displayed at boot time there is supposed to be a line stating " hda1 hda2<hda5 hda6 hda7 hda8>" .On using knoppix 0726 I only get "hda1 hda2<> " which indicated that hda2 (the logical partition) has no partition at all.
I forgot to mention that when I tried to upgrade my kernel to 2.3.21 I also get this partition table problem. So I believe thi s is a kernel problem.

I have also tried the "upgrade script " (upgrade from 0606 to 726-see the home page this forum)and the resulting ISO also has this partition problem.

2. No I have not 'poor man's installed' Morphix since I cannot boot the latest version. Version b was installed to my home pc but have already removed it.

3. There are complaints in this forum about the latest install script showing only partition and quit as the choices. I think the reason is this partition not detected problem.

[baldyeti]

BTW, the old script for a full Debian Linux install to a Linux partition was knx-hdinstall. Which directory was that in again?

Also, there's a newer script, right?

I think that's respectively
/usr/local/bin/knx-hdinstall
and
/usr/local/sbin/knoppix-installer

[rf_homer]

j.drake: RED ALERT, CAUTION, BEWARE...
As to NTFS, I think that garyng's post spoke of updating the Linux NTFS drivers from the 1.x version that KNOPPIX uses to the newer 2.x driver. I imagine that means on a full hdinstall or a remaster, not the poor man's install. Right?


No. not hdinstall or remaster. What I did was the following :

1. create a loopback file system on a local drive
2. store the newly compiled modules here(/lib/modules/*)
3. copy the ntfs.o driver to the initrd
4. make change to linuxrc to load the ntfs driver, loopback driver
5. before linuxrc get into the actual init process, mount --bind my own module tree

This is very cool. However it is also slightly above the skill level of many users that I think would have use for this idea. I think I could re-create this, but I'm not sure how much it would take for me to do this right. Is there any way we could get you to post the boot.img that you created with this method? Or if you don't have anywhere to post it but don't mind sharing, could you send it to me and I will put it out with a location for others to take it.

On a side note garyng, I have to say I am impressed with the level of support you are giving the english speaking side of knoppix.

[baldyeti]

Let me make sure I understand.
NTFS is a non-issue with the newest versions of Knoppix???

Woah, careful there!
I can't speak for gary of course, but I'd still rather keep my NTFS partition(s)
safely mounted as read-only. What people seem to have had success with, though,
is freeing some diskspace with qtparted. So if you want to try the poor man's install,
I'd suggest you free a gigabyte at the end of your disk, then turn that into a
800 Mb fat32 unit for holding a copy of a knoppix cd, plus another unit of
200Mb for a persistent home.
You'll need to boot off a loadlin diskette. I think A.Jorge explains the process in a FAQ,
or you can find the thread we had about it a few months back.

Call me paranoid if you like but I don't think putting the valuable data people
keep on non-linux partitions at risk would do any good to knoppix's reputation.
If you want to share more data between your OS's, just allocate more fat32 space.

[baldyeti]

No. not hdinstall or remaster. What I did was the following :

1. create a loopback file system on a local drive
2. store the newly compiled modules here(/lib/modules/*)
3. copy the ntfs.o driver to the initrd
4. make change to linuxrc to load the ntfs driver, loopback driver
5. before linuxrc get into the actual init process, mount --bind my own module tree


Very clever. But Gary: does it require the NTFS parttion to be mounted RW?
If so, that's way too dangerous for general release, IMO. What would happen
when an unsuspecting user drags a file in konqueror to his NTFS unit?

[rf_homer]

Very clever. But Gary: does it require the NTFS parttion to be mounted RW?
If so, that's way too dangerous for general release, IMO. What would happen
when an unsuspecting user drags a file in konqueror to his NTFS unit?

Since he is just using it to mount the loop 700Meg Knoppix file, I am assuming that he is mounting it read-only, just like any other normal Knoppix boot. He just added the drivers so that the r-o NTFS works, where the boot image normally can't. This way he has a faster 'cdrom type' image off the HD. I want this so that I can use a cdburner, which is the only cdrom without having to mess with the existing setup.

I wish this would become part of the base knoppix boot.img files, but I'd be happy to host this file if Gary is willing to share it.

[garyng]

no need to mount RW, RO is enough as I don't need to write to it. Even if I need to mount RW, there is a way to 'shield' it from casual use. Just mount --bind another mount point on to the orginal one.

mount /dev/hda5 /mnt/ntfs
mount /mnt/ntfs/knoppix /mnt/knoppix -o loop
mount --bind /mnt/shield /mnt/ntfs

in this way, /mnt/htfs no long see the NTFS partition, it is not umounted, just shielded.

[garyng]

I don't have a place to host it but I can send the modified initrd to anyone who like, well hopefully someone can host it so I don't have to send it again and again. just a few line of changes.

I also got a modified GRUB utility which can be run under win32 so anyone can install in on XP system.

[rf_homer]

I don't have a place to host it but I can send the modified initrd to anyone who like, well hopefully someone can host it so I don't have to send it again and again. just a few line of changes.

I also got a modified GRUB utility which can be run under win32 so anyone can install in on XP system.

Go to http://www.skyjammer.com/files/knoppix

Once Garyng sends the files, they will be available there.

[garyng]

I don't have a place to host it but I can send the modified initrd to anyone who like, well hopefully someone can host it so I don't have to send it again and again. just a few line of changes.

I also got a modified GRUB utility which can be run under win32 so anyone can install in on XP system.

Go to http://www.skyjammer.com/files/knoppix

Once Garyng sends the files, they will be available there.

Thanks for hosting the files. Because of personal need(I want to test the new KNOPPIX), I am working on a new "Broken man's HD install" as I now have all the necessary pieces in place. The aim would be:

1. no burning of CD required(even the first time), for those without burner
2. no commercial tools needed to extract the clooped image in the ISO(at the moment I still need a third party tools like MagicISO to get it under XP)
3. no booting into linux(the current poorman's install instruction need to)
4. no boot floppy needed.

If Klaus finally agree to include the newer NTFS driver, it would be possible for a 'download -> install -> reboot' method to introduce KNOPPIX to a XP/W2K machine.

[A. Jorge Garcia]

OK, I got sick of this machine that came preinstalled with WINXP and NTFS. So, I reinstalled WINXP on VFAT32.

Now, not only can I place the compressed KNOPPIX file on c:\KNOPPIX, but its really easy to make a DOS Boot Disk! Just go to My Computer and click on the floppy. Then if you click on format there's a choice for formatting s boot floppy! All you have to do is add the autoexec.bat file.

Works like a charm!

Regards,