View Full Version : Linux is a dream that is not realy there

01-20-2004, 03:44 AM
I have been trying to install linux for over 4 years now. Every red hat linux i buy has bad cd's in it e-mail them they dont care. suse does not install. I just got a knoppix cd it just loads a picture and does nothing else. debian locks up. I use to run red hat an it worked ok. But i think i might join the BeOS team i think that linux needs to die out if something is that hard to install and year after year no body can fix it and make a easy install then the whole operating system needs to die. I have spent thousands and thousands of hours tring to get a linux on at least 5 different computers with non that work. What we need is a system where you down load a windows program hit enter and it burns the disk.
you put it in a computer and it installs linux. Not a system where you have to read hundreds of pages of boring text witht the hope that this time it will work. windows xp you put the disk in and answer some dumb questions then it installs. well i put your zero to linux in five minutes cd in my computer and it just loads a picture and then does nothing else.
but i will give it one more try on this system. down load it once more
12 hours with my conection. read a few hundred pages of text and find out it does not work what is a hundred more waisted hours. We all should turn our backs to linux and make something that works or clean house with linux and make the durn thing work. this is how i see it working
you down load a program one file for windows or mac what ever then you run that program and it burns the disk. you put that disk in computer you want to run linux on and it installs it. NO 300 lines of text you have to rawrite all that becuase that sucks once you spend 20 hours figuring out how to just make the disk run then you find out that is does not work. and Red hat is the worse they have no suport if you get bad disk's in your box then your out of luck and on your own. I think that linux does one thing it helps bill gates . yes it helps him cause the mass of people will never use linux becuase you can not install it. so it takes the people that could be finding a replacement for windows and keeps them busy in a dead OS. that is to hard to understand unless you dedicate your life to it . And i know linux i use emacs lynx and pine tar what ever i can figure it out. But a install of it is all but impossible to acomplish.

01-20-2004, 04:20 AM
I think your biggest mistake is applying your own experience to the entire world. I've been using Linux full time for two years now, with an additional partition for playing around installing new distros. In all that time, accross five or six distros, I've never once had a problem installing anything. But here's where our reasoning differs - I'm not about to say that Linux is for everyone. I've seen different people have different experiences, such as your own bad luck. Thus I'm not about to make any broad statements such as "Linux is perfect for everyone because it's good for me!", as you make your statement of "Linux is bad for everyone because it's bad for me!". Besides, what's wrong with having a choice anyway? If windows works better for you than Linux, why keep bothering with all this - just use windows. It sounds like you're using a combination of bad burns and unsupported or damaged hardware. If Linux can't run on it, and windows does, I'd think the better solution would be pretty apprent.

01-20-2004, 04:31 AM
For me, a knoppix install is much faster and easier than a windows install. And all the restarts in the windows software installs drive me nuts. :D

01-20-2004, 06:04 AM
But i think i might join the BeOS team i think that linux needs to die out if something is that hard to install and year after year no body can fix it and make a easy install then the whole operating system needs to die.

Well I hope BeOS works out for you. It is apparent that you are just a home user of windows. If you were on the admin side or the pc-tech side and you had to fix windows day-in & day-out I think your perception of Linux might change. Sure, it might be a bit harder to install, sure you might actually have to type something instead of clicking 'yes' 5 times but I guarantee that the end result is far superior to anything that M$ has ever released. Don't forget that the easy installation you refer to also includes multiple intentional vulnerabilities. Play your dvd in XP and M$ knows what you're watching.

There are reasons for Linux being more difficult to install. Shall I name a few? I think I shall.


Windows "do you want to use the entire disk for windows?" YES
-done Now they don't tell you that you're just wasting your disc space, they don't tell you that NTFS is a pice of s**t, they don't tell you that even tho you said 'NO' to internet services they're going to install them anyway but it is fast and easy isn't it?

Linux- uh oh! better learn cfdisk or parted or diskdrake or one of several others to partition your drive. Also you had better find out how many partitions you need, what size they should be, format them, select the mount point. Whew! That was alot of work! Why was that so hard?

1) It is possible that an application might start eating hdd space. If the partition that process is running in is only 2G then all it can eat is 2G.

2) What if a user downloads a virus ( i know there are none for Linux that we need concern ourselves with but let's pretend). Since Linux is a true multi-user system, the virus is contained to that users /home directory and doesn't hose the entire system. Why? because the virus has the same permissions of the user of that directory and therefor does not have permission to write to any of the other directories and is effectually contained. Remeber win98? All you had to do was log in with the wrong name and you created a new user! Now that's security ain't it?

3) I hosed up my install and have no choice but to reinstall. Not so bad considering that if /home is on a separate partition all you need do is tell Linux where it is and all of your tweaks, backgrounds, settings etc come back just as before.

4) Uh oh! I'm running out of room! Well with Linux you can simply copy any partition to a larger one, edit fstab and mount it to the new mount point. Voila! a larger filesystem!

Last count there were 8 reboots involved when installing win2k- Linux has only 1 or 2 and one of those is to boot your new OS.

M$ admits that their windows update software doesn't actually work all of the time and may falsely report that an update was installed when in fact it was not.

How to install an app in M$?

1) Search through thousands of pages of shareware/freeware mixed, read descriptions of apps that are *close* to what you want, find a potential winner, make sure it isn't spyware, scan it for viri, click, click, click install it. Or pay who-knows how much $ for an app that will be depracated in 1 year.

In Linux: If I want an app all I do is apt-get install <application name>

If I don't like it: apt-get remove <application name>.

How much has M$ cost you over the years? For me it was plenty. Are you aware that when you buy a new system w/ XP you don't really even get a copy of the OS? You get some lousy restore disc that you have to get permission to reinstall! You know what I have to say to M$ about that? Bite me you money grubbing bastards!

How much has Linux cost me? Only what I've donated and the time I spend writing things like this post.

Why is it that every other browser available (the bigger ones anyway, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror, Gnome, etc) have pop-up blocking built in? Surely if M$ software engineers wanted to they could easily add that feature to internet exploder but they do not. Why is that do you suppose?

My local school district in a town of 250,000 people just spent $600,000 for one years worth of M$ licenses! OMG! How many pc's could have been purchased new w/ no OS for that much money? I know for a fact that a school could get plenty of 1.0Ghz machines w/ 256M that would run Linux quite happily and do anything they desire.

I have a few old machine around. For example a 200 Mhz w/ 128M. What does M$ have to offer me for that machine? Nothing! Thankfully Debian runs wondefully on it and I even have a nice desktop, fast browser and the easiest installation of any OS that I have ever done.

Are you aware that M$ moved their M$update site to Linux servers because there was nothing they could do to stop the attacks on their servers?

How about you make an honest genuine effort to install Linux. Stick it out and don't get angry when something doesn't work the first time. I have yet to meet a machine that I cannot install Linux on. Sometimes it is a bitch but it can be done.

The gap is rapidly narrowing my friend. If you honestly beleive that Linux is going to vanish then you are sadly mistaken.

01-20-2004, 06:48 AM
OK, I agree that Linux can be a pain to install at times. Mostly due to bad burns. I have had to DL and burn some three times before I finally bought a new burner. Now each work right away. I also use 700MB CD/RWs too so that I don't need to waste money and land fills. But there are some distros that suck like a rug! I did a full 7 CD DL and burn of Debian and didn't get past disk one!!! Friggin Debian! But Knoppix is the first one that went in and booted up after a couple minutes. I was able to use it and play around, then go back to windahs (as my grandmother would say). I agree that Linux is a apin in the butt from a windows point of background. The Linux partition thing still has me confused. Linux has a long way to go, even Linus says that it could take up to TEN years for it to become a great desktop computer.

Now what I have a problem with is you saying this:

I have been trying to install linux for over 4 years now. ... I have spent thousands and thousands of hours tring to get a linux on at least 5 different computers with non that work.

There are 24 hours in a day... 8 are spent asleep, 8 are usually spent at work or school, that leaves 8 to eat and watch TV and play with computers.

I am sure you don't spend all 8 trying to figure out Linux, but I will grant you 4 hours a day (THAT'S LOTS!) Now I know you don't do this every day all year so I will say that you have 4 out of the 7 days a week to play with Linux.

4x4x52=832 in one year. You said Thousands and Thousands of hours doing this, now if you can't figure out Linux in that amount of time... I don't know how you even learned how to get past the banana and the intertube!

01-20-2004, 06:49 AM
But a install of it is all but impossible to acomplish.

I've used Linux for 5 or 6 years: for the last year or so it has been my only OS.

In my experience there are 3 main reasons for Linux installs not to work:

1. Flakey or non-supported hardware. Run a memory test on your memory, send us a list of your hardware.

2. Incorrectly cabled and jumpered drives. Don't use "cable select", the outer connectors of IDE cables are for the master and mobo, the inner one is for the slave. Slave and master must be jumpered appropriately and for modern drives there are even more permutations -- it's always best to check with the manufacturer's website.

3. Set the bios to "bios defaults". In particular, set the bios to "non plug and play OS".

If all else fails, take your box to an install fest or a local LUG meeting. Above all, remember that all communities are likely to respond better to calls for help than to "your <whatever> is a pile of shite because......." rants.

01-20-2004, 09:50 AM
Now I'll tell my story here; I didn't really use computers at all until about y2k when I was an exchange student in Grand Isle, Maine, US. My host family over there had a AMD 400 with some buggy VIA chipset and way too little memory (64Mb IIRC), anyway, that thing was running windows 98 and was sooo slow, loaded with all kinds of crap programs, spyware and the harddrive filled to the roof... Damn, I really hated it, kept crashing on simple tasks like copying a file from CD-rom to hd!
I really enjoyed having unlimited access to the internet at that time, that's what kept me using that computer.
But as time passed by, I was so fed up with windows that I looked around for alternatives and quickly discovered BeOS; I spent an entire night downloading cause win98 doesn't make dialup any faster;-)
Installed it, and, WOW, I was sold! Never crashed on me, had all the apps I needed at that time and very fast too. But then Be wen't out of business and third-party apps for BeOS were rather rare at that time so I ordered myself a copy of SuSe Linux 7.2 and an own computer (bx chipset;-).
All in all, I recall my first steps with linux rather painful; sure SuSE was easy to install and KDE 2.2 was easy to use but when things go wrong you had to ask for help...
And of course, while migrating from a windows 98 environment I had to learn a whole lot along the way; Linux is _not_ a drop-in replacement for windows and it probably never will be.
Finally I think it would be naive to think that one can achieve your "Linux dream" without doing some work for it, right?

01-20-2004, 12:50 PM
First off I think Fingers99 sums it up,

Some hardware is just flaky.... other is designed specifically for MS and needs a lot of coaxing to actually load ANYTHING else. It's never impossible, my XBOX runs linux quite happily now.

Or perhaps you keep skipping over the same bit which you don't expect to work.

"How about you make an honest genuine effort to install Linux. Stick it out and don't get angry when something doesn't work the first time. I have yet to meet a machine that I cannot install Linux on. Sometimes it is a bitch but it can be done. "

You can't skip learning a few basics like partitions. Just becuase this is hidden awayin the MS world - the reason knoppix asks where is because it doesn't wanna hose your other OS's or data, even the winblows ones.

It would be nice to see what its all about.
Presuming your Cd is good and nothing got corrupted in that 12 hour download then it should just boot. You stick it in, reboot and presuming the cabling is set right on the CD drive and its set to boot from the Cd then it should just WORK. It did for me and many others.

If it doesn't then it can be fixed (almost certainly) BUT why not try it on another machine first and see what its all about.

"Every red hat linux i buy has bad cd's in it e-mail them they dont care. suse does not install. I just got a knoppix cd it just loads a picture and does nothing else. debian locks up. "
This sounds like YOUR CD !! Perhaps even antivirus setting in the bios???

Bad CD's do exist. I got a whole MDK 9.1 with bad CD's. I didn't even bother telling MDK, what would they care.... probably tell me to return them to a store.... BUT I just picked up a magazine with the download edition and it worked fine.

NOTHING is simpler to get up and running than knoppix from CD.

01-20-2004, 04:12 PM

First, if it doesn't work for you - don't use it - just stop trying. If you have "honestly" been trying to get Debian/Red Hat/Linux running for that long, and with no success - then just quit trying.

Second, considering the Knoppix.net Forums here - have you ever posted any help to try and help you get knoppix running? I can tell you, WinDoze will keep you on the phone for days, and MAYBE, you will get a human to help you - they, on the other hand, will simply tell you to reinstall WinDoze again - that IS the DEFAULT answer from any tech I knew in the Win95 Support Team. (yes, I worked for M$ as a Win95 Phone Tech Representative, when it first was launched, so I KNOW how they work). Knoppix.Net Forums here have the BEST-OF-THE-BEST people, taking on minor issues, all the way up to even "How do I get Knoppix to work with "THAT" OS?" - Would M$ "ever" do that? HELL NO! (pardon my language, a timid little girl here, with that kind of a mouth, where is the World coming too?)

Third, and this has to be the kicker - Go back to WinXP - go on - would it be any skin off my back? Nope. As an old saying goes: I Couldn't Care Less.

Fourth, and last, why post a negative post like that? Do you expect sympathy? Do you want pity? If it doesn't work for you, then just jot it down as "water under the bridge", and move on. Go back to M$ WinXP, or whatever OS you like, and use it. Take the CD's you burned, and fling them as far as you can, like a frisbee. Or make a mobile out of them, I do that with all the AOHELL CD's I get. ( heck, I almost have a whole wall of AOL Cd's now :D ) (yuck, puke, I prefer Mozilla thank you very much)

If you want help, if you want assistance, then ask - lots of people here are "always" waiting to help anyone who asks for it (even myself). But to b*tch about it, doesn't help you, doesn't help me, doesn't achieve anything. As everyone here has already said, you are getting replies, and I am sure, that if your post was "phased" in the form of "can you help me?", instead of "Linux is a piece of cr*p!" - they would have replied with answers for you :D

One final note: your post "screams" at me, saying "All I want to do is banter, and take as much of the FORUMS bandwidth as I can, to do nothing." -=- I hope I am wrong on this, but, people used to go into MACINTOSH newsgroups and post something like "PC'S RULE!", and never be heard of again - or post something like "MAC'S RULE!" in a PC newsgroup, and never be heard of again - the result - signal to noise ratio in the newsgroup would skyrocket on the topic for months after. Not a few days after the newsgroup would begin to return to normal, another an*s would do it again. You want help? Or are you just screaming the same thing? Mudwater? Why are you saying all this here? Would you like to have some assistance in getting that "dieing" Linux running? You aren't saying that. What you are saying is, you want to get away from WinXP, probably, though you aren't saying it, you hate it, it has all the bugs and problems that everyone here is saying, and you know it - and you WANT to get something else working - possibly why you have "tried" to get Linux running for so long. MAYBE your next post should be in the FORM OF A QUESTION, like: "I am having problems with installing/running "XXXXXXXXXX", can someone "help" me?" -=- As an old wise person once said: You'll catch more flys with honey, than vinigar.

Enuf Said,
[We now return your to your original bandwidth, already in progress]

01-20-2004, 04:49 PM
The integrity of the CD is paramount, as indicated above. For folk with DUN and possibly unreliable ISO files, the simple, cheap method for obtaining a tried and tested distro is to buy it from linuxemporium.co.uk (linuxiso.org in the USA). Just a few pounds/dollars and guaranteed tested.
Otherwise, yes, it is a long and tortuous route. The review by Cassia [http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12960] of SuSE9 adequately summarised the entire Linux scenario. But things are getting better.......

01-21-2004, 10:39 AM
linux can be a pain as someone said in an earlier thread.
however,if ur delving into the world of linux,u must have some decent exp with pc's.

its apparent from ur original post that u know very little about what linux has to offer.

try reading a few books,joining online communities etc....
I promise,when u know a little more, ull get addicted....i know i did!

Keep trying,its worth it in the end.

dutch noob
01-23-2004, 05:07 PM
sorry guys i couldnt resist posting here

i am a total noob in Linux but i have tried several version to look how it is and i also downloaded them ,but i never ever had any problems installing it or whatsoever

that was all

01-24-2004, 04:50 PM
My personal vision about 15 year of IT experience is that Linux is the FUTURE..
M$ has counted days...
My first distro I used was Slackware.. it did not have any help for install, but my constance, my hard will makes me able to run it at 2nd try...

When I read people that is unable to work w/ linux and says that linux is only a dream, I smile, couse they are condamned to be blind and stupid.. Their brain will strain out from their noses.. M$ is for lazy people, Linux is for active intelligent people..
So..lets study guys.. drop m$ out from the "window" :lol:

01-29-2004, 11:46 AM
hey dude, you've got the choice to hate it.. but whether you like it or not, you've got the choice.

01-30-2004, 02:30 AM
Ok, I am a total nOOb when it comes to Linux :shock: My first experience with it was last week when I downloaded and burned a copy of Knoppix at school (Go SAC Rangers!). Since Knoppix is a "live" CD, I was able to try it out on two different systems in our Electroncis Technology Lab. The first was a 233MHz PII w/64 Mb. After creating a swap file on the existing HD, it ran great! I was able to log on to the internet right away without having to wait for any kind of password or anything! I play around with a few programs included and I was SOLD :!: The next machine I tried it on was an Intel P4, 3GHz w/an 80GB HD and 256MB DDR ram. I had NO problems running it, of course! I went home and took the plunge and installed it on my new AMD XP2000 box w/256MB ram and 4GB Hd. Well.... that install took a few hours until I figured everything out. But it was a HD install and not run from CD. I had to learn a few Linux tips and tricks, but all in all, it is working great and I will never go back to M$ anything again! It sounds to me like you might have a bad burner or something in the hardware install is wrong. Also, you have to realize that DL'ing a big file with a dialup connection will usually result in problems with the downloaded file. If you use a "download helper" program, you will probably have much better success. Also, the reason so many people stick with windoze is because they have learned to accept a lower level of performance for a "perceived" level of reliability. How many times have you gotten the "blue screen of death" on your windoze machine? Surely countless times, even when you aren't doing anything! Just take some time to learn about your hardware and about Linux itself, obtain a "REAL" tested CD from a reputable dealer and dive in! Yes, you may have to work at it a little bit to get it to work, but I guarantee you that you will be much, much happier when you are done. And if that doesn't work, either post a specific question in one of these forums or email me at mramirez68@mail.accd.edu and I will be glad to help you in any way that I can. I'll even DL and burn a copy of whichever distro you want to try! Either way, quit hating and start working! Ok, 'nuff said!

02-04-2004, 10:08 PM
Oh I'm so tired I dont want to read the rest of the long posts..but let me put in my comments.

You seem to be one of the few who think Linux doesn't work. If you can't get it installed then there is something you're doing wrong or your hardware is bad.

I mean, I got Red Hat 9 installed in 15 minutes! Up and running including the boot loader. anaconda is easy..and the Knoppix install is a bit harder..thats because it wasn't really meant to be installed. But I can get that done in less than 25 minutes--no sweat.

Plus..Windows XP takes about an hour to install--and you have to sit there and wait for those moments where it needs input..And it doesn't come with nearly as much useful software than Knoppix or red hat.

For you, I suggest #1 Get a new internet connection! Mine sucks and it only took 4 hours for Knoppix, and #2 Get a new computer..so that you can install Linux..

02-05-2004, 05:43 AM
I would say Windows rule the PC world, linux rules other appliance that will be in our house.

So if all you want is just the function provided by Windows, don't bother to try linux on your PC.

However, if you are like many of those linux lovers who want to do things beyond what Windows on PC can provide, spend some time and it would be rewarded.

I have just turned a Xbox into a home entertainment unit, freevo/mythtv in the foreground for TV/Movie watching and a firewall/router/wireless access point in the background, all for just 150 bucks. Now try that with Windows. I believe Microsoft was also advertising this kind of usage on PC with a hardware price tag of 2000+.

BTW, my 7 year old 150Mhz Pentium notebook which is now good for nothing(no way to install any of those new Windows) has become a X workstation using my Xbox for casual browsing/email as well as openmosix node to share some load of my Xbox.

02-05-2004, 02:01 PM
Will some mod please rename this thread to something more sensible:
I suggest Windows was a nightmare from which i awoke but anything will probably do :D

I think the couple of noobies who posted sum this up!!!!
They downloaded, they read the instructions they stuck in the CD...

If they can do it why not whoever started this topic!

If you set off with a negative attitude then expect a negative result....

Now garyng.....
What packages did you need for the freevo/myth tv!!!!
I just upgraded to xebian 1.0.1 and noticed a big speed improvement over 0.4.0 although I also did the F: drive install not E: :D

Also Im working on the resolution.....
Its on a projector (:D) and not that simple to read!!! Works great as a DVD player but web browsing has me squinting!!!

02-05-2004, 05:03 PM
I would be interested in learning more about garyng's xbox modification. How about it garyng?

02-05-2004, 05:47 PM
Well, strictly speaking the linux I run on xbox has nothing to do with knoppix. Go to http://xbox-linux.sf.net where you can find the detail on how to install/boot linux on xbox. There is one called xebian which make use of cloop(just like KNOPPIX) and which is also a live CD distribution. Only it doesn't boot from CD but load from xbox. For me, I installed it from scratch using 'debootstrap' which I have posted a howto to the xbox-linux mailing list.

As for freevo/mythtv, they are at http://freevo.sf.net and http://www.mythtv.net. Both has debian unstable package so it is simply apt-get.

For Freevo, there is a few modifications that needs to be done in order to use the xpad to control it and also play VCD(which xbox's DVD has tuned not to read such a thing nicely, but mplayer still can play it). If after installation of these and you still have problems, we can discuss that in detail.

While people are saying mythtv is better than freevo, I found freevo more suitable for my need, especially for xbox. It becomes the 'fronend' menu system for my xbox which I can initiate the system shutdown too, all using xpad or the DVD remote. And adding other functions shouldn't be too difficult. I also installed GDM so I can 'X -broadcast' from any PC. I set the resolution to 640x480 and it is fine for casual viewing, even text. I only have a normal 32" NTSC TV. I use GDM's autologin feature so the screen on start is already freevo.

Of course, the DVD/music playing can also be done using standard xbox features but I have the added benefit of a server/router in the background and turn my old notebook useful again. I have also installed openvpn/freeswan/ssh so it is possible to have secure remote access(read VPN) from any part of the world, as I am on cable that has some pretty decent speed.

All these are just geek things but at 150(xbox + MechAssault game + a Netgear USB wireless adaptor), what can I complain ? I am temped to get one of those USB PVR/TV tuner or webcam so I can watch my house(or live chat with mom) or enjoy home TV channels when I am away(I live in 2 places with a 16 hour time zone difference in a 6 month rotation).

All these can be done with Windows too with their media PC concept but at may be 10x the price tag and it looks awful in the living room. Xbox on the other hand blend well into it(just like a VCR) and it is pretty quiet and is not power hungry(about 100W) so is fine for 24x7 use.

02-22-2004, 06:40 AM
I must agree with Mudwater that Linux is hard to install and requires to much reading to get it up running. My felling is that until the average home user can just insert a cd and like magic Linux is installed and running fine, it will never replace Windows.
When they do get it running, the last thing that they would want (in my view) is to spend hours working out how to update thier system, let alone installing another program.
Now before you shoot me down in flames, I have just installed Knoppix to my HD and it is running fine, although I have also tried installing Debian 3.0R1, RedHat 8.0, Mandrake 9 and various others, most were just to complex for me. I have no knowlage of Linux but like to learn as I go, which is hard if you cannot get an installation to work in the first place.

02-22-2004, 05:26 PM
Sometimes the installation is very difficult indeed. Knoppix saved me from Linux starvation :wink:
Yesterday I tried Mandrake 10 RC1 and I wasn't able to install anything as my mouse and keyboard didn't work.
There are some commercial distros that seem to do a good job at installing (Xandros, Lindows). I resisted them (what ? I am going to pay for software ? I never pay for software. hehehe.).
If it doesn't work for you yet, I assure you that once you get everything working you will be glad :)
With Knoppix I was able to jump from installation to using the system in the light speed. I learned so much about the applications in such a short time that I am amazed (shorewall, iptables, apt-get, apt-file, smbmount, desktop sharing, vnc...). Still I was not a complete newbie :)

02-22-2004, 07:27 PM
Mepis is pretty brain-dead to install. Frankly, none of my Linux installs have ever taken more than 30 min., and it's pretty much insert CD, click click walk away have coffee, click and you're done.

With Windows, you need to set aside at least 3 hours, then it's reboot load driver CD reboot load driver CD reboot load driver CD reboot patch reboot patch reboot etc.

02-23-2004, 05:55 AM
Slackware 9.1 install= 30 mins and 1 reboot, Mandrake 9.1 install= 40mins and 1 reboot, Win'98SE install =1 hour and 8 reboots (I actually counted them). Mandrake was the easiest (does the partitioning for you, if you want or don't know how). Slack is fast, fairly easy (selects defaults for you if you don't know and also explains the choices too) although knowledge of partitioning required. Windows..... frustrating (half of the time it can't find it's own files or drivers to configure something) crashed on the 5th reboot.
These installs were... Slackware on a Celeron 2.4G system and installed Mandy on a Duron 1.2G system and Windows '98 on an XP1700 system. Haven't done a Knoppix HDD install yet but will get around to it one of these days. Running Knoppix off the CD= Bootup in less than 5 minutes and 0 reboots!! :D
The point is that I haven't had any problems with the Linux installs. Perhaps I'm just having good luck. They run perfectly fine with uptimes of 6+ days at times (with only a couple of program crashes..nautilus ...somewhat dislike nautilus).

02-23-2004, 02:47 PM
What's wrong with paying for software ??
But seriously, your right. Xandros, Lindows, Lycroris et al all install pretty much Brain dead. Lindows assumes you are brain dead and writes over any other partitions...its all down to simplifying the install.

Making Linux easy to install is not really a challenge. The real challenge is how to do it without messing anything up.

It would be relatively easy to write a script and customise knoppix live to just presume no other OS was present and just install itself BUT its very undesirable. There are even brain dead server products out there like SME-Server which give you a fully functioning web/email gateway.
BUT they are all hell to customise becuase building in the simplicity builds out the power and cutomisability.

I don't understand the whole problem with pokey.....
there are plenty of distro's (mainly commercial) that you just stick in the Cd and it will wipe everythng off and install itself.

If Mandrake 9.0 install was too complex for you then your better off not using it...

Mandrake is aimed at intermediate people who have some knowedge of PC's in general. I installed the Mandrake 10.o release candidate the other night for a look. I didn't time it but perhaps 5 minutes and oine reboot and its working as a system.

A 5 minute install does EVERYTHING windows can and a lot more.
What does windows contain ....
A OS and graphical interface, email client of sorts and news reader. A basic text editor etc. etc.

However the difference is after the 5 minute install I started adding the things I needed. Things that wouldn't be available in windows or would cost a lot of money. Surely you just let it wipe your windows install out....
just choose use entire disk and it will. (Windows does the same in reverse)

At this point all you have to configure is your email accounts etc. really no different from Windows. The big difference here is that Mandrake GIVES YOU a CHOICE.... what people seem to object to is the choice.
and if this is the case then better to choose Lindows!!

urpmi apache webmin postfix mysql php phpBB2......
Then I have a nights downloading to wait for, but Im getting the latest servers with the latest security and bug patches applied.

Then of course it gets complicated....
Setting up a web server is not hard but an email server takes some thought. Think about it your installing the equavalent of a secure exchange server ... its not going to be point and click you'll need to read some documentation.

The point Im making is that if you choose lots of servers and stuff that wouldn't even be in Windows then its obviously a bit more complex.
For the masses who don't wanna learn anything then perhaps Lindows is more suitable or a LIVE knoppix CD. The problem seems to be too much choice, not something windows users are used to.

I think knoppix rocks and Mandrake is a nice system for people to learn about linux on. Debian is for hard core purists .... as are say slack and gentoo etc. (all in their own ways). In many ways they are superior BUT they are not really for the faint hearted or someone who just want the thing to work. More they are something you gradually move towards as you understand more of linux and expect more from it.

Sometimes the installation is very difficult indeed. Knoppix saved me from Linux starvation :wink:
Yesterday I tried Mandrake 10 RC1 and I wasn't able to install anything as my mouse and keyboard didn't work.
There are some commercial distros that seem to do a good job at installing (Xandros, Lindows). I resisted them (what ? I am going to pay for software ? I never pay for software. hehehe.).
If it doesn't work for you yet, I assure you that once you get everything working you will be glad :)
With Knoppix I was able to jump from installation to using the system in the light speed. I learned so much about the applications in such a short time that I am amazed (shorewall, iptables, apt-get, apt-file, smbmount, desktop sharing, vnc...). Still I was not a complete newbie :)

02-24-2004, 05:05 AM
A comment on Win vrs Lin from an old goat. I've just spent the last 5 day trying to get a "configured" version of Knoppix on my hard drive. I'm a newbie and it took about 3 days to get it initally installed. Then I kept corrupting the install by making mistakes trying to get the CDROM
volume high enough to be heard. Kept disappearing after reboot. Read the forum, found the clues, now know how to fix that.
Then I tried to straighten out the video card/monitor
situation. I got the card in ok. But the changes I make to
the monitor, 800X600, 24 color, revert to 640X480, 8
color, after reboot, even though KD told me the changes were saved but I needed to reboot to put them into effect.
The first couple of hard drive installations I could do the
videocard/monitor configuring with no problem. So I figured I had a corrupted install.
I don't have a zero writing utility for this hard drive so to get something on it, not Knoppix, I installed Win ME.
Start at fdisk to Windows decktop -25 minutes. All hardware found and installed. About 20 seconds to get the screen set up cause the video card was detected correctly.
The Knoppix hard drive installation detected hardware as follows:
1 Video Card - generic nv (it is a Riva Vanta TNT2)
2. Monitor - TRL model 0610 ( the only one listed)
which is listed with Hs 25 -- 96, Vs 50--75

It is TRL/RIC DH-1764UM/DH-1764U
In windows this runs 800X600 true color(32) ,large
fonts. Hs is 37.9 Vs 60.4
The KX Config Panel shows 800X600/85 24
+++how that 85 gets in there I don't know++++
3. Sound card SB AWE32 detected
4. Wave table - undetected
5. Joy Stick - undetected
6. Ethernet card. Detected
And I'm still thrashing around trying to get it tweeked.
Linux has a way to go. It may never make it because it is too"balkanized". Just my thoughts, but I am still trying. Vic

02-24-2004, 06:07 AM
The Knoppix hard drive installation detected hardware as follows:
1 Video Card - generic nv (it is a Riva Vanta TNT2)
2. Monitor - TRL model 0610 ( the only one listed)
which is listed with Hs 25 -- 96, Vs 50--75

It is TRL/RIC DH-1764UM/DH-1764U
In windows this runs 800X600 true color(32) ,large
fonts. Hs is 37.9 Vs 60.4
The KX Config Panel shows 800X600/85 24
+++how that 85 gets in there I don't know++++

The X server makes the calculation automaticly and uses the best mode possible for the frequencies it is given. If you know the proper settings for the monitor you can directly edit the file /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 as root and enter the proper values in the monitor section. You can also get a better driver for the card from the Nvidia site and use that instead of the generic nv.

4. Wave table - undetected

Can be done but work required you need to go to the http://www.tldp.org and check for the how-to and Google can be of help as well.

5. Joy Stick - undetected

You need the modules input, gameport, joydev, ns558 (assuming you are plugging the joystick into the sound card) and whatever the correct module is for the joystick loaded plus something like this in your /etc/modutils/aliases.

# Added by me for Sidewinder Joystick
alias char-major-13 sidewinder

Then you need to run update-modules as root after making changes in the file for it to work, you would of course substitute sidewinder for the correct module for your joystick.

Just my thoughts, but I am still trying. Vic

Good to hear.

02-24-2004, 05:22 PM
Hmm. If every Red Hat package "has bad CD's in it," Suse "won't install," and Knoppix "just loads a picture and does nothing else," then maybe you have a hardware problem -- a bad CD-ROM drive.

Please spend 35.00 on a new one rather than waste our time trolling this forum.

02-27-2004, 05:57 AM
Stephen thanks for the guidance!! I have fixed the CD volume problem
per your suggestions to other posts. I am now configuring the internet
connection etc. so I can get to Invidia and download a better driver.
I did find an exact matching setting for the monitor in the monitor section
so once I get the video driver I will go after that situation. Thanks again, I appreciate the help. Vic

g lang
04-25-2004, 03:24 AM
Hi : i've been a part time user of Linux for a couple of years .
I never really had huge probs installing any flavour.
Recently I discovered Knoppix and installed it easy to my laptop.
On this pc I had RH 8 which i rarely used , an when I did it could give me a few probs , I put it down to being a bloated sytem , trying to do too much at one time , when it wasn't necesary.
So I "overwrote " RH 8 with a Knoppix install , updated/ installed a few extras with apt-get and I' m more than happy .
seems like the way to go for a home user ....Cheers javascript:emoticon(':wink:')

05-03-2004, 11:25 AM

About five years ago I tried Linux, several distros, and the only reason at that time that I did not stick to it was because Intuit's Quickbooks did not work with Linux, and there were no other comparable alternatives available.

With the exception of Toshiba (controlled by M$) laptops, I have never had any major problems installing and customizing Linux

I am now running all my personal PC's on knoppix, as well as all my office PC's. I do not have any non Linux apps, with the exception of Quickbooks, and for that, I give great thanks to Wine, life is great, the staff like it when the computers run 24/7, and can access their systems from home, and each other's terminals.

after mine own beard growing learning curve, I helped the staff in the transition with the exception of one, but then that educationally challenged chap needs a mouse to operate the microwave.

05-06-2004, 07:47 PM
Up until about 6 months ago, I was a MS user. I knew and understood the operating system, but I got sick of all the bullshit associated with it and needed a switch. I've been through about 12 - 15 different distros, looking for the right one for me, and I haven't had ANY problems installing them. I find that if you actually ummm....READ the instructions and follow them, it is quite easy.
Even if doing a text-based install is too difficult for a XP user, who'se obviously attracted to the bright colors and flashy graphics, much as a mentally retarded person would be, I've found that the blag! distro has a very nice GTK based installer, that does everything for you, right down to creating the swap partitions. Just a few simple clicks. Come to think about it, VectorLinux does it too. Boy, I think Knoppix and OverClockix were really easy to install.
FreeBSD gave me some problems, but after a quick scan of the online install guide, I found out about the automatic partitioning of that too.
What I'm trying to say is, if you have been trying for FOUR years, four f*king years, you have some serious problems. There is a good chance that you shouldn't even own a computer right now, do to the inherant safety hazards that you pose to yourself and others with your ignorance.

01-20-2005, 06:13 PM
M$ = no comments
Linux = I like it a lot


Newbies > try live cds or pre-configured distros as ex. Xandros, Yoper, Suse ( These are user friendly )
Developers > ex. Knoppix, Debian, Slackware ( Also user friendly but is more compatible and stable for tweaking etc. )
Über > ex. compile your own kernel and maybe use ex. fluxbox if you like to have a gui ( This way you end up with a secure and super fast OS )

Ohh, I am not really an über tötung but I do have some knowledge of it, I've compiled a few kernels in the past but nowadays I mostly develop web, perl and php and I am using Feather Linux as my dist.