rant from hopelessly newbie

[nishtya]

HD install of knoppix 3.3 debian style. Been at this for over a month. And am unable to conquer compiling progams against this kernel. I have repeatedly tried compiling programs only to fail miserably because they a) can't find source headers b) don't like the ones they find.

My most notable failures are alsa and now lm sensors. Nvidia was in there until I got kano's script. Alsa was responsible for just about every reinstall of knoppix the first couple of weeks. Lm sensors is runnerup and closing fast :x

winmodem drivers didn't like the mismatches that knoppix kernel provided - as noob as I am, I used -f and cried like a baby when I tainted my kernel. You have any idea how traumatic it is for a noob to be told her kernel is tainted? :cry:

So, I got an external modem, I reinstalled knoppix, gave up on alsa and went on with my linux noob life. I have sound, I have music, I even have midi. I don't need alsa. I luv my knoppix :)
But, lm sensors I need. I have to monitor the temp of the XP, hot little griddle it is. I am sick and tired of rebooting to check it in the bios or windows. But the lm sensor install has totally defeated me. Modules/adapters will not be inserted because of my kernel source (why are these programs always picking on my poor kernel!) They recommend a vanilla source if using a patched kernel (is there any distro that doesn't have a patched kernel for goodness sake?). <sigh> and of course nvidia had a fit and it wanted the 'real thing" aaaaaaaaaaargh I don't want a choice of 50 different flavors of kernels to boot from - I boot with good ol 2.4.24-xfs and don't you forget it. Works a treat and I am not tainting it for nothing ever again. However. It would be nice to have some kernel source for these whinging programs that don't want this, don't want that. Nvidia brought along its own and still griped.

Sorry. Venting (obvious, huh? :oops: ). Pardon me.

My choice is now to look into another distro, maybe? Because linux I do love. I can hop on down to the local CompUSEless and pick up SUSE. I have mandrake community 10 but it is not for a newbie and I very noob. I had started the download of man 9.2 but 10 came out after I had dled CD1 and all my download soures went poof to jump on 10 bandwagon. I am on dialup - this probably is too much for me. Ten years in IT, I admitted defeated and refused to do XP migrations after 1,500 w2k migrations. I can't believe linux is defeating me but who wants to reinstall all the time because you have to bludgeon your custom kernel for the whim of every program out there? In all honesty, is there such a thing as a distro without a patched kernel? I think not. Which leads me to believe this is hopeless. Some things I can compromise on for love of linux, hardware failure is not one of them. And the warning on some of these things about firmware damage is kind of scary, too, besides wondering if my chip is cooking (AMD really should have forced the board mfrs to put in protection and shutdown like Intel).

Thanks for listening. I really liked this knoppix and linux and wanted to stick with for the long run. Maybe I am just too old :roll:

[Cuddles]

nishtya,

I KNOW where you are coming from... (in more ways than one, too)

I have Knoppix 3.3 (kernel v 2.4.22-xfs)

I too had a serious pain in the rump getting ALSA to work, my final attempt caused my system to be so unstable, I thought it was a "Microsoft Windows" install (bad poke, and joke)

I finally had to live with a complete "gutting" of my system, and re-install -=- again -=- but this time with "alsa" on the CD Cheat Code - my hard drive install "inherited" ALSA from the CD Boot. It works, and, as I found, I can't let "anything" try and update the ALSA, or I loose it completely again.

I also know about lm-sensors -=- I too have a AMD, a 1700 XP - and I also, was concerned about temps on the machine... I don't know how I got lm-sensors working, but they are, and I have GKrellM running on my desktop, watching everything now.

I guess the hardest thing I have been having problems with, is the inconsistancy with things...

They tell you you should "always" get packages and stuff by apt-get, but then, as with anything, there are contradictions to all the rules... ALSA appears to be one of these... lm-sensors is another, and the one other I know of is "Rocks-n-Diamonds" - a game...

You might want to look in the postings with my nic on them, and see if where I have gone, you can follow along? I being a noob, slightly getting better, I almost "always" need a "hand-hold" to get anything done, ( I guess I just don't "get it", I am quite sure, that when I do "get it", the dim bulb on my head will become a new sun for the world [giggle] )

For me, having a business that, as I say, "digitizes analog source media into digital audio CD's" - my business was at a stand-still with the "audio" problem... First was sample rate problems, then, along came ALSA, to further mess things up... I figured out the sample rate issue, and then someone pointed me to using ALSA - which, with the compiles, caused my recorded audio to have "noise" brought into the recorded source audio - outcome, was another re-install from scratch. I too have had around 4 total re-installs, of which, nothing could be retained from my previous install. I love Knoppix, and I don't think "anything" could "drive" me back to using anything "Windows" ever again. Hence, why I went through all that I have went through, and still am using Knoppix...

Its really weird, thinking about it... Dealing with a "constant" concern of "what will break next", and yet, I am still here??? For me, I think it is because I know too much about Microsoft, having worked for them as a Windows Customer Service Representative, in a previous "roll out" on one of there older OS's, I KNOW Knoppix, or Linux, or Mandrake, or RedHat, or any of the other "flavors", are more stable, and far more secure, than anything M$ has, or could ever dream up. That, I think, is why I continue to "battle" through the next thing that "breaks" on Knoppix.

I'm not complaining here, I am completely aware of what I am doing, what choices I have, and I choose my choices, responsibly. But, as a friend of mine said, as I go through each one of my problems, "Knoppix could not compete with Windows, its too complicated for the 'average' person", how true... My usual come-back to them is along the lines of... "So, don't you have another 'security update' to do on your system?", or, "Don't you need to download the newest virus signature files for your virus program?" (this, most always, gets them steamed up [giggle])

I guess all things have pro's and con's -=- what "price" must be "paid" for things... Linux has a way to go, before it could just "plug and play" like the other OS being "sold", but it is far more stable and secure than its "brother" on the market. Linux needs to have "some" things, like hardware modems, that the "other" OS has modem made, almost "tailored" specifically for it... Video cards are manufactured to take advantage of "Windows", and need "special" help for in Linux...To think of it, Linux has to be almost a year behind its opposition, as far as hard ware is concerned, just because Linux has to "convert" this hardware to being able to "work" in it... Linux has a serious handicap associated with it... THINGS are not made for it, things are made, and then, in most cases, have to be "coaxed" into working. Not the same in the Windows world, things are made for it. Manufacturers are looking for ways to "make" Windows specific products that, one, take advantage of that OS, and two, give them the ability to "cut corners" and make cheaper products, thus giving them higher profit, or more in-line with being more competitive in there markets - (as is the case with WinModems)

Linux, if I may give my oppinion, is an infant compared to M$'s OS's - but it is growing up... It's learning, growing, and becoming stronger... I see a time where Linux is so close to Windows, what ever version they are on at that time, and you won't be able to tell the difference. A time when Linux can "plug and play" with the best of them. When, you can walk in a store, walk down the software, and see a little penguin logo, and the words under it: "Linux Compatable" - and the penguin is before the "Flying Window" Logo :!:

Dreamer? I don't think so. We are all on the "basement floor" here, on a project that "may" take the world by storm. Think I am still draming? Look at the "majority" of posts on this forum... "Knoppix is great", "I was blown away", etc... We are all, like, Bill Gates, and for that matter, Steve Jobs, working in that same garage, on something, that "could" be the next OS of the Century. Still think I am dreaming? Think of all the talent invested into Linux, and all of its "flavors", talent that is working toward a "completion" of this "project", to a point, I would guess, is, direct competition to M$. And, as a last comment, all of this talent is volunteer, and working on the project to, I would think, to "see how far we can go with it."

Why do I continue to live with an OS that has made me gut my system four times, and completely re-install? I think, for the same reason you posted Nishtya, and have done about the same thing, because you either feel the same way, either now, or that you can see "the future" of Linux, as I also feel it is...

I have put more things on my shelf, to be marked "ShelfWare" forever, with far less problems than I have had with Knoppix. I have thrown away software for less reasons than I have with Knoppix, notably: Deskview X, and OS/2 (all versions) for just not "looking right", and yet, I am still running Knoppix. I believe in it, I like it, and I love it. Even with all of its problems, issues, and, yes, even if I have to re-install it again. Because, I can see it as being the OS on "everyones" desktop, laptop, personal computer, etc... AND THIS TIME, I am going to know, and use it, BEFORE it becomes "popular". This time I am going to be with something as it becomes what everyone knows, or sees. This time, I want to be on the "ground floor" of something, and I want to "see" it grow into what everyone else sees, this time. I didn't have a chance with Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs, but, with Linux, I think I have that chance...

Cuddles

[eco2geek]

Just out of curiosity -- why won't "apt-get" work for ALSA and lm-sensors on a hard disk install of Knoppix? What happens?

[j.drake]

I happen to agree with you, Cuddles, even though I'm not ready to rely on Linux myself, I can see the potential of it doing exactly as you say. I'm not predicting it, mind you, because there are just too may variables that cannot be controlled. Conventional wisdom would have predicted that Macintosh should have been squashed like a bug, but it wasn't -- I think for three reasons: First, it's users loved it and were deeply passionate about it, the same as with Linux. Second, it filled needs that Windows was inadequate at addressing - again, same with Linux. Third, Apple got into the schools with the idea that it was easier to use - allowing loyalty and familiarity to build with newer generations. Well, Linux doesn't have that, but it does have the other two. Linux needs an idiot-simple shell that runs all the applications people want and need. It's getting there, and I'm hoping that Novell's acquisition of SuSE will help in that regard.

Remember, there was a time when WordPerfect and Lotus dominated, and IT managers laughed at the suggestion that business could rely on the PC instead of mainframes. Apple's OS is now based on BSD unix. If someone could just get the Apple ease-of-use on top of linux, and get it into the classrooms and government offices, I think Windows will eventually be about as "dominant" as DOS is now. The "geek chic" of linux serves it well now, but will eventually be its downfall if they can't dumb down the interface and leave the command line console to the truly adventurous.

[Cuddles]

eco2geek,

First of all, that is ONE CUTE AVITAR - I have become a fanatic "lover" of the penguin, and of Tux, ever since I started working in Knoppix...

Now for your, more pressing, querry:

Just out of curiosity -- why won't "apt-get" work for ALSA and lm-sensors on a hard disk install of Knoppix? What happens?

It isn't so much what happens, but what doesn't happen... Packages have "certain" dependencies, which must be met, specific libraries, or versions of these libraries, or other "support" programs - if these are not met, the program, or package, you want to run, just won't, or worse, it won't install...

Take "alsa" for instance: it requires alsa-drivers, alsa-libs, and I think alsa-utils - of which - alsa-drivers are source code only. apt-get won't work, it can't figure out the "dependancies" for the three, so it won't install correctly -=- outcome -=- no alsa sound support.

If you research getting alsa to work on a Linux system, you will actually find, apt-get is not an option for it - you must manually get each package, taking note that you keep versions correct, and manually compile the drivers, modules, etc... yourself...

Some of these "source code only" issues come from a copyright issue, source code is not the same as a compile program, or binary file... Some of the "legal" issues are avoided by using source code, and others prefer to use source code because of the whole "Open Source" theory, if you want to modify the code, you can, because you have the source code, kind a thing....

Other issues with being source code is that, a programmer can supply source code to everyone, without regard to Linux "flavor" or kernel version, or processor type, etc... Since you compile the source on your own system, it is "made" specific for your system... Whereas, if someone wrote a program for Linux, they would need to compile the source for RedHat, Mandrake, SuSE, Knoppix, and Debian, in ALL kernel versions they have, and in all hardware that anyone could have - gets to be rather hard at that point, to predict all the possibliities...

But, to answer your question specifically, "Just out of curiosity -- why won't "apt-get" work for ALSA and lm-sensors on a hard disk install of Knoppix? What happens?" -=- it might not install, it might install but not work, or it might install and trash your system, thats about it...

Hope this helps,
Cuddles

[nishtya]

Thank you all, especially you, Cuddles. I have been reading the forum awhile and had started looking for your posts aways back. I did feel a certain linuxnoobdom kinship though I sat back and watched and read and read and did I mention read? I do RTFM, too. Trouble is so many distros, kernel flavors and conflicting info. This is where I am tripping up.

I am no longer in IT, I am more graphics employment-wise now and though I have brought up my "linuxdom" with some ex IT coworkers I get no support and in the case of a few individuals where there was mutual respect, they ridicule :oops: and "pshaw". I am the lone linuxer in my crowd :wink:

Anyhow, after the two absolute failures of installing lm sensors with apt get, I looked carefully the second try and noted only one error, literally "error 1" and a lousey email to root saying basically it lm sensors needs special devices under /dev. duh Reading through the vast amount of info about lm sensors, I came to the conclusion I should heed the warning not to try compiling against a patched kernel. So, off I began on vanilla (or unpatched) kernel compiling Sunday afternoon. Merrily I did compile, everything went a treat and than I fumbled, stumbled and blew it when asked questions about Lilo. I won't go into the gory details of Sunday night. You can read my post over at Linux questions if you are interested.

Oh, and eco2geek, I cannot tell you why alsa and lm sensors don't work with apt-get. Or why apt get install is so vague (error 1 is real helpful aint it?).

Anyway, I fixed lilo, I have a "vanilla" kernel sitting doing nothing and am scared stiff about trying to compile lm sensors without using apt get even for a foot off the ground (memories of nvidia and alsa haunt me to this day).

And I really still think linux is great and knoppix, to me, has been the most polished distro I have tried. It is the standard I compare all the other distros to that catch my eye. I know it will be a long long time until I can do away with windows. I need the graphics apps that wont work with wine (yes, I have been working on learning gimp and even Karbon14 (which I installed, YAY, me :lol: who needs illustrator or photoshop? not me) but there are oodles of others I needin order to keep earning a lousey living. Living with a foot in two worlds. I will be damned if I go doze XP, with the way I swap my salvaged hardware it will never work. With what I went through with customers trying to get anything to work with it that worked under 98, nope, never. But I am a long, long way from knowing what I am doing with linux (I still spend 90% of my free time in it, though 8). Cracking open another beer and thinking about doing a cold, takeitlikeaman, hard compile install of lm sensors (yeah, I will chicken out and have some chocolate)

[eco2geek]

First of all, that is ONE CUTE AVITAR

From the "credit where credit is due" dept., it's by Mark Reidesel, and part of the default background image on Slax-Live (http://slax.linux-live.org), which is another live Linux CD.

First off, I'm not really sure of any benefit(s) you get from installing ALSA over OSS. What are the benefits?

I've compiled and installed ALSA from source twice now on Red Hat (as newer versions came out), so I'm aware of the source code issues you mention. (I installed ALSA because I wanted to run the Soundgarden sequencer.)

But what I really meant was, Debian Woody includes pre-compiled ALSA packages on CD 2, so why wouldn't they exist for Debian Sarge and Sid? After looking through the package list on the Debian web site, the answer to that seems to be that "official" pre-compiled ALSA drivers only exist for specific kernel versions, 2.4.16 and 2.4.25.

There's a page about compiling your own kernel and installing ALSA on Debian here (http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/linux/debian_alsa.html).

I did successfully get ALSA working on Debian Woody using the pre-compiled binaries for kernel 2.4.16 - although I'm probably going to disable it in the init scripts, since OSS works just fine and I want to use kernel 2.4.18. There were some configuration issues I had to manually deal with, however! Oh, well.

[Cuddles]

Eco,

OMG - that avitar as a background? I'd be in "hog heaven" for sure... :D

I've never really tried any other distro, other than Knoppix -=- It was my first "real" look at where Linux has turned out like... Having only background, and that being almost 10 years ago, Unix on Sun Microsystems machines, I didn't have a clue what Linux was like, or looked like. Knoppix was deffinately a "turning" point in my education. Since it, pretty much, floored me, I kept with it...

Now, into the realm of "what I believe", or "what I had heard":

Why ALSA? Hmmmmm, from what I had heard, here, and here being the ONLY contact I have for "computer" related information, ( I currently moved from a "large" city, into one of those, as the cowboys used to say, "a one horse town"), this girl felt that ALSA was being "touted" as the "next" big leap in Linux Sound Archetecture, one that was going to replace OSS, and thus, if you could move to it now, do it, because soon, it will be the "de-facto" in the future.

From what I hear, being on the "alsa-user" mailing list, I don't think this is going to be "too soon" though. It appears to have more problems, at the moment, than the "current" default sound, OSS. If Knoppix is in its infactcy, then I feel ALSA has to be in the "conceptual" stage, (the point where two parents decide if they want a child in the first place.)

Knoppix does have it, but only through the Live CD cheat codes, every attempt I made to compile and insert into the kernel, was thwarted, until I just used the cheat code with the Live CD, and then installed onto my system, which did work, first attempt. ( I think the version I am running, from the CD, is 0.97.whoknows )

As far as I am concerned, Linux, in many ways, is far more advanced than its Windows counterpart, but, then again, most "average" computer PC users in the world, are not able to fathom, some of the "nuts and bolts" kind of thing that Linux requires at this time. I still think Linux is unable to go "mainstream", possibly at the BETA stage, it still requires a "user" to "get down and dirty" with their system, and Windows is way too "polished" for those kinds of users.

I liken, at this era, Linux is for "techies", and the rest, will flock to Windows. Some people will not sway from Windows, as my friend, because it is more tailored for the "average" user, whereas, Linux, requires you to be a little more "intimate" with your system, and hardware. This "root" of the problem, is probably so strong, that trying to get a Windows user over to Linux, is not going to work, if all you have in your "upper hand" is stability and security. They won't buy it, especially when you start talking about, what a "Windows user" would call it, a DOS PROMPT as your main power. "I go to a dos prompt, and type?" is probably the response you will get, from someone in the Windows World. Even if that "dos prompt" is more powerful than Windows is (as a whole), they won't "get it".

The biggest selling point an OS can have right now? Hmmmmm, I think its two-fold... "Plug-n-Play", I think is one, and two, "Supports all hardware". Windows does it ! Why can't "Linux"? (is going to be a consistant response from any Windows user, looking to Linux...

Linux is getting better, which is why I think "Knoppix", or for that matter, ANY "Live CD" distribution, is a good thing. It gets the "Linux" into peoples hands, and it can, usually, Plug-n-Play pretty well, on the CD... As for hardware support, that, I am affraid, Linux is at its most handicap. Not until more people are "pounding" on hardware manufacturers doors about having "Linux" drivers made for their products, I don't think this will change much. Heck, you can only "hang" outside your system cabinet so many kinds of devices, until you "have too" have these devices internal - case in point, WinModems...

I like Knoppix, I kinda wish I might have "looked around" before I installed, but that isn't an excuse, nor am I "mad" at muself for supposedly "settling: for Knoppix, I think its "leaps and bounds" ahead of M$, and only in Knoppix, not "Windows", can I say, my system has been running "full-blown", with all the stops out (so the saying goes) for more than three days, without having to reboot, for some reason. (mostly due to deteriorating resources, was Windows' problem)

I had to reboot in Windows maybe twice a day, more if I did anything: reboot after a backup, reboot before a backup, reboot if I wanted to run Microsoft Office, or used it, reboot to install, and reboot after an install, you name it, I had to reboot for it. I also ran Visual Basic, and that too, on some larger projects, required reboots during development, due, again, for failing resources in Windows. I would just watch Windows "swallow" memory for "something", and when it was done, it never came back, and the only way to get any of it back, was a reboot... Hmmmmmm, I used to think it was the developer that caused that, but I know better, a developer can't do anything more than "shutdown" properly, and still, Windows wouldn't regergatate the resources it took. M$ always used the excuse, "we can't be responsible for irresponsible programmers", well guess what, I wasn't one of thiose, I did all my cleanup, and still, resource problems... The OS has to take responsibility somewhere.

Knoppix is just that "responsible" OS thinking. I can run anything, watch my memory "dive bomb", but when I close the program, the memory returns, responsible...

My last point, if Windows people can't see the "lone" issues that Linux gives them, and all they can see is the "pretty" Flying Windows Logo, or march behind Bill Gates, blindly, so be it... Let them... I can "see" what I have, I know what I left behind when I gutted Windows off my system, and put Knoppix on it, and I like what I have. (even with the problems) I can wait for things to be "perfected" on Linux, especially due to the fact that while I am waiting, my system is more stable and secure than what I had with that "other" OS...

Cuddles

[eco2geek]

OMG - that avitar as a background? I'd be in "hog heaven" for sure...

It's on KDE-Look.org (http://www.kde-look.org) on this page (http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=2045). :)

I agree with your take on Linux. I'm a "perpetual newbie" myself. ALSA is one case in particular where I really don't understand what's happening "under the hood," but I can get it working by following instructions, asking questions, and experimenting.

I still use Windows (2000) on my fastest computer as my main operating system. Totally apart from all the thuggish things Microsoft has done, marketing-wise, I do like Win2K a lot. It's stable (only crashed twice in the past 6 months :? ), it's got lots of great apps that run on it, and...I've been using Windows for the past 14 years, so I'm pretty familiar with it. Never had security issues with it because I take precautions. The thing I don't like about it is paying for it. I don't know if I'll upgrade when Windows Longhorn comes out or not. Been putting a lot of effort into learning Linux recently.

Linux has made huge strides over the last few years. Look at how nice KDE 3.1 looks - it's taken Microsoft 20 years to get where they are with their GUI, and KDE is what, less than 10 years old. If you're willing to accept most of the defaults, a Linux installation is as easy as a Windows installation. So it's only going to get better and more user-friendly.

[bob58]

I think that the users and supporters of KNOPPIX and LINUX should come up with the [/b]Ultimate Knoppix computer. Everyone can decide what is the best processor, Mother board, memory, periphrals...everything that is compatible with Linux so we cut all these problems in half. If I knew I could get a new OS that is better than what Micro$oft has to offer, I would gladly build a computer containing Linux compatible hardware....make a standard....so everyone wins. Then alot of the hardware issues would not be a problem. My desktop computer luckily seems to run good with HDD install of Knoppix. The only very minor problem I have is a sound card thats not supported but luckily there are some drivers that make it work. I could go out an buy a soundblaster but why bother? It works but I notice the output from playing music CD's is not stereo!!!! I have no clue how to fix but I dont care cause i usually listen to CD's on the regular Cd player in living rm!!! But a KNOPPIX-COMPATIBLE computer would be cool. We all should be building our own boxes anyway. Just an idea...bob[/quote]

[homer]

Just to throw in my 2 cents. I'm a particularly wet-behind-the-ears newbie although I've been following Linux in general, on and off, for a good few years.

I've always stuck with Windows up until recently because although programming for the Windows GUI has always beaten me

- There is enough of a user base to make amateur programming for the OS a valid proposition.. if you can actually figure out how to do it & not be forever stuck in DOS-land

- You put in a CD, answer a few simple questions, and with virtually no technical knowledge can have a fully working computer up and running pretty quickly without any real worry of exploding your monitor

- The default install looks nice, and is pretty intuitive even for a fairly inexperienced user

- It'll read & let you modify all the major file formats without much impediment

- It just works. no big deal. Want to write a letter? Print it? Browse the web? Check your email? All straightforward straightaway. No having to know anything about the command line, or the 'line noise made functional' approach to computing





Hey, hang on. I appear to have just described Knoppix. Oh, sorry, missed a Knoppix-only bullet point, the cost..

My belief is that a line has now been crossed & the major sticking blocks to a mass-takeup of Linux have been removed. Part of my business involves fixing people's computers, I'm leaving a Knoppix CD for all Windows users for them to play with now.. my little contribution to 'spreading the word'.

I just worry a little still over the leverage Microsoft has over the hardware manufacturers.. last time I looked, fritz / palladium / NGSCB / longhorn seemed to be leading the way in hobbling the effective PC hardware 'standard', tying it to Microsoft and wrong-footing Linux. What's the latest on that issue?

[Cuddles]

You know Homer, you make some very interesting points...

I got into programming for a NEED, that need was something that was lacking in the OS...

In DOS, it was lacking in utilities, in the early DOS versions, no multiple file copy existed, nor any variation of moving files - in most cases, a move required a copy/compare, and then delete - I am quite sure MANY people created batch files to perform a two command function, and named it move.bat -=- I began programming for DOS at that time, and had as many as 150 utility programs, that, I found, were lacking in the DOS command structure...

When Win3.x came out - same thing... (well, considering that this "OS" was actually a program running under DOS, it didn't "fix" many of the lacking issues that were in DOS), and, I again, began to start programming for "Windows"... The need was evident...

When I moved up to Win95, and then Win98, the need was less, it was actually a "true" OS then, but I had found "still" a need for making programs for the use of utilities. Some of them were "back-end" programs, some "front-end", and some were, again, utilities that I found lacking in the operating system structure...

I am not sure if these issues have been fixed, or "band-aide'd" in the newer versions of Windows, nor do I care, I have "evolved" farther than using Windows... I am learning how to do things a "new" way, and for that matter, I do not feel that I have taken any steps "backwards" for it. Linux is different, but not as different as when I first installed DOS, or Win3.x, or Win95, or even Win98. Some things require a "slight" retinking, or re-education, or in the case of someone moving from Windows to Linux, a little learning curve.

The biggest thing I think of is that I don't really see a "need" to program in Linux, it seems to have everything already, no utilities, front-ends, back-ends, nothing... When I made the step to Linux/Knoppix, I think I put myself out of business, unless I want to get a job "fixing" Windows systems, or writting programs/utilities for Windows still. True, I still have a "small" Win98 install, but that is only for Wine support, not as a operating system.

From the first time I saw Knoppix running off the CD, I knew something was going to change, and I think, it was me... I am sooo "into" Linux now, I can't even think about how I did things when I was in Windows, and, as a side effect, I have become a lover of Tux, and the penguin.

I was talking with someone yesterday about the whole Linux/Windows issues, and we kept going back and forth, on what this did, that did, this does this better, this does that better, and so on. What we finally come down to, was, logo's [giggle]

Windows has the "Flying Window" logo, and Linux, has the penguin, Tux -=- for me, I never liked the logo Windows decided on, it sounded, so unimaginative. I think of a room full of Microsoft Execs, bashing around the idea of "What is our logo going to be?" -=- When some dim-wit suggests: "Well, since its a windows OS, why not a Window Logo?" - oh, sure, the logo has gotten more "colorful" over the years, but who can get "excited" about an inatimate, non-personal, non-anaimated, window? I always felt the "lamest: screen saver in Windows was its "rip-off" of "flying through space" using the "Flying Window" logo... sheesh....

Now, Linux, now we're talking... An animated, cute looking, penguin. Something everyone can look at, and enjoy seeing. You can get all kinds of animated games with "Tux" as the character, try that one Microsoft with your Windows Logo :!:

If I was Microsoft, I'd change my logo, maybe something like "M$", but then again, how do you animate a logo like this either? Microsoft used to have a nice saying: "Where would you like to go to today?" - cute, catchy, but, as far as I know, they haven't reused it, nor have they settled on a new saying. Maybe, Microsoft can start to change there image, and a new saying, to reflect what they "truely" are doing... Something like: M$ - How much do you want to spend today? -=- Or, Buy Microsoft, Buy a bigger hard drive, Buy a faster computer, and just maybe, we might run...

I got tired of M$, just about the time I realized that "other" operating systems exist, and can run faster, and more stable than what I either had from Microsoft, or they had to offer. Each year M$ releases, yet another, operating system, or Office product, or Development software, and more and more computer systems are landing in the garbage dump for it. Each time they release something new, something else gets dropped from the "supported" list. I am sorry Mr. Gates, but I don't have the same checkbook, or pocketbook, as you do, I can't keep "affording" to buy something new each year to be supported by something new I just bought from you... I am getting too old to keep up with the "Jones'", and even though our society has turned into a "throw away" society, I can't live with the idea that last years models don't still have value, or use.

With your thinking Mr. Gates, our landfills will be full in no time, I'm not going to "play" your game, and, as I have found, many operating systems are "swooping" in to take the "garbage dump" systems that you choose to have thrown away. Linux is just as happy as a "fly on dog-do" to run on last years models, and even earlier stuff too. If Microsoft doesn't watch it, they will loose people who refuse to keep buying more "newer" stuff that has become outdated because "you" say so, and Linux will be standing behind you, catching the "reasonable" people, you leave behind.

Just my thoughts, again,
Cuddles

[homer]

I wonder about Tux sometimes. I've read some negative views from the Microsoft-supporting camp, along the lines of his projecting an 'unprofessional' and 'amateurish' image. I must admit in my days of fighting with Slackware '96 on an AST Ascentia J laptop, (nightmarish memories of manually setting up the X server here), I began to associate the cute little feller with frustration & hours spent achieving only small successes which ultimately didn't lead to a system capable of matching the utility of my Windows machine. He kinda stopped being so cute in my eyes and began to take on a slightly sinister aura!

Could there be a lot of people out there who see him on a CD cover or splash screen, remember past bad experiences, and run screaming back to the comforting arms of Billy G? Just a thought.

I at least, ever the optimist, seem to be rewarded for overriding the slight shiver of fear induced by The Penguin - didn't let him stop me popping Knoppix in the CD a few days ago. Well this time I feel rather more friendly-disposed towards him!

Programming wise, it's not particularily that I would want or be likely to spend hours hacking away at home-made utilities to the same extent as I once did, but what *is* important to me is that the operating system would let me, or other more capable developers, if the desire did exist, without needless obfuscation and taxation. Good feeling to know you can get into the guts if you need to. Or to know that other small developers are still in with a chance here.

Oh my god, I've just discovered 'Ethereal'. I'm sat here watching my windows computers send texties to each other on the network & I even understand a word or two.. Absolutely incredible. Far cry from the XP 'network setup wizard' hehehe.. I get it.. I'm Knoppix.workgroup.net.. this system's got to be a better way of doing things, it tells you what it's doing!!! Linux talking to XP on a vanilla install by a greenhorn.. excellent. What happens if I let my firewalls down on the XP machine, do I get to see the footprints of shadowy net-borne things with horns trying to attack it?

Sorry, went 'on one' for a bit there lol. Knoppix is having a strange and exciting effect on me.

Just enabled myself as root in Konsole, set up lisa and messed around for a short while in xSMBrowser - read a couple of posts in the networking section for a helping hand.. god knows if I was doing things right but within 5 minutes I'm browsing the network & seeing hidden things I've never seen before in Ms 'network neighborhood', ADMIN$ ??, C$ ?? - even created a text file on server.workgroup.net & dragged it across to Knoppix.workgroup.net & saved it.. sorry, probably basic stuff to most of you but to me that's a major buzz!

This isn't merely 'as good' as Windows. From a techy point of view it's surpassing it.. & if I can figure it out anyone can.. godspeed to Linux :) sorry to prattle on but you guys have just witnessed yet another conversion ;)

[nishtya]

welcome, Homer :o

and why, may any of you ask am I posting here with 'doze? Because Billyboy pulled a fast one on me tonight. Damn him:twisted: Came home ready to do battle with a fresh kernel and lm-sensors (don't ask) but needed to boot into doze to grab some stuff for work that is sadly, not linuxable. While I was at it in dozeland I decided to pop in a music CD since also sadly, audio CD playing has been hit&miss on me in knoppix/debian. Anyhow, it fires up wmp. Now I am firewalled three ways to China (mostly OUTbound) and do not allow any of my players to access internet without asking nicely first and slapped back into submission (and I usually say NO just "because I told you so" :P ). Anyhow, being distracted wanting to get back into my linux I absent- mindedly hit yes and let the damned thing connect to the internet (it had no business there-aaaaaaargh). Next thing I know I have a dialog pop in my face that comctl and other windows undies have been updated whether I liked it or not and I better reboot or windows maybe won't work. My dozeness is tweaked to perfection after years of perfecting tweakedness and I really hate it when that happens. So I am trying out as much as I can tonight to see what it broke.

Point of this story? This is why I keep hammering away at learning Linux. Years and years in IT and mslavedom, I am still running 98 because damnit, this is my computer, the OS bought and paid for BTW and I will do what I want when I want on it, not what billy tells me that I need. Oops, ranting again.

Have to get back to playing with some of my hardearned doze goodies and seeing that they haven't suffered at the hands of some updaterapist. I know some of them will break with a "new" comctl and friends - they are oldies but goodies, darned this has ticked me off. :evil:

[Durand Hicks]

I cringe nowadays when I have to boot into windows. I hate software phoning home, and microsoft has put all kinds of hooks into their software so that it phones home, be it windows, media player, update service, (a huge bunch of services running in the background). If you have a firewall that traces packets, you'll find them phoning home whether you will or no. I've hunted and killed most if not all of those programs' ability to do that, but m$ still keeps trying to add them back by way of updates. Here in linux, I don't have to worry about that. I get the updates on my own time and none of my apps phone home. That makes me feel much more like I have control instead of joe blow company. I do feel that linux has a way to go to be really user friendly, it feels somewhat like the good old days of basic/dos. Not that I'm complaining, it actually feels liberating. In windows, i get the sense that ms wants their os to do the work for you their way, (I despise those wizards). More and more, windows takes away your ability to get things done your way, and I end up fighting to restore that ability (xp fisher price interface anyone?). In the days of dos, I wrote a lot of batch files to get the computer to do what I wanted. I could even multitask to a degree in dos, i.e thru norton commander, midnight commander in linux is eerily similar. For newbies in general, perhaps linux could use a few more gui frontends to the console commands that I've grown to love. Not everybody likes typing arcane commands, and then again not everybody likes using a mouse. For now though, I think it's a fair tradeoff, and I'm glad I'm learning linux now. I used to hear about linux and be very afraid to jump in, I actually tried twice with FreeBSD, and failed to get the x-server going both times. Knoppix changed all that. Pop in the cd, and I was blown away, and ensnared line, hook and sinker. And it was free! Did I mention it cost me only 1/2 hr to download, 2 mins to burn to a 50 cent blank cd? Windows xp pro cost what, $299? Office costs what $399? Knoppix with an os and open office cost what, a measly 50 cent cd and a litte time to download (and some coffee)? I'll never buy windows again.

[homer]

Knoppix couldn't have come at a worse time for ms, what with them scaring the pants off everyone over embedded DRM. I'll be following Longhorn's sales graph with interest.

[nishtya]

Hi Durand :) I have been firewalling and spyware hunting for so long in doze that it became a way of life. I don't mind paying for what has to be paid for - hey, I am probably one of the few people with a winzip license but once I pay for it, it's mine and it's supposed to do what I want. And ONLY what I want. I don't want to have to comb through eulas looking for the "trap" and keeping it tied down with zonealarm so it won't send off my cc info, mother's maiden name and what I had for dinner last tonight to the mothership . I have a terrific collection of windows freeware and paid for shareware so I didn't get much trouble from them in phoning home but it was windows and and the XP activation scheme that turned me off windows forever. I purchased a terrific program called GLIDE for running old games and it was worth every penny. But, it's activation is based on a generated key from hardware and every time I swap something among my boxen, I have to reactivate. I decided that would be too much of bloody nuisance in an OS and stopped at 98SE. Took a look at linux ages ago and though the CLI didn't bother me at all, hardware support, or lack of it, did. So I have been basically frozen in time as far as OS growth at home.

Then I tried Lindows. Don't laugh. I saw after a few days it wasn't the distro for me but it got me back on the Linux kick as I saw it could support my medium age hardware with no problem. I dl'd and hdinstalled Knoppix and have been at it a few months now. The GUI is nice, but it is more the hardware detection and apt-get that drew me in. I don't know whether prettier frontends or eye candy are the answer. A lot of the barely computer literate people I know can hardly manage proper mouse clicking so pretty molded buttons will still be clicked 15 times :) You do need more intuitive install scripts and easier methods of installing applications (like CNR and Klik) to draw in some more to the fold, maybe. A front end is a nicety, but even in windows apps I have had to get under it for some configuring - I often edited ini's and such when I couldn't get at the problem through the frontend.

So, I am determined to learn linux whether it be through Knoppix or some other distro. It's just a steep learning curve and I have little time. But Linux is for me and I never have to worry about it phoning home, sending the family jewels to Linus or connecting to the internet to get my email and having Klaus swap out a few vital OS components to bork my installation :wink:

[Cuddles]

Nish,

I too, had the same firewall software, and even ran "dedicatedly" SpyBot for a few years now - constantly killing off "cookies" and "adware" from my Internet Explorer install...

Had a big bout when the "significant other" clicked on a download, and it threw one of those "nasty" click bars into IE - had a dickens of a time ripping it out -=- nothing worse than booting your Windows, and instantly it wants to connect to the internet - when NOTHING is running - so, I KNEW something was wrong...

I also hate REAL ONE PLAYER - nothing worse than a "support" program "assuming" that it should be the ONLY program to load WAV files... Excuse Me :!: But Real One is bloated, takes minutes to load, and ISNT the best program to use for certain situations, like checking small "sound effects" WAV files - I prefer "Sound Recorder" for that one, so, I am CONSTANTLY trying to keep Real One from taking "control" of the WAV associations away from Sound Recorder, which requires TWO registry hacks...

Having Win98, used to, now only have it for Wine support, but, I degress, I have dealt with the Windows Updater, and the Internet Explorer Updater for years, and the consistant battle of what "they" feel I need, and don't... Windows is about as unstable as a UNI-POD human being as it is, and then, add into this these UPDATERS - sheesh - lets not even get into the viri attacks, mail, internet, document, and OS, or the adware installs, dialers, and the click bars that infest IE, can we say pain in the rump???

Win98 is all I have, I "bought" DOS, from 1.12 up to 6.2, Win3.1, Win95, and even Win98 - but I REFUSE to buy any new OS from M$ (note the MANDATORY dollar sign) - what is it with Microsoft, they are like a fattened King, all they want is MORE, and MORE, and MORE... Not MY money, no more... As for "knowing" what goes on "under the hood" - no clue when it comes to a "Windows" OS, heck, for all I know, the string "BILL GATES IS GOD, BOW DOWN TO HIM!" may be intertwinded billions of times within the source, or as a corolary, for as many dollar bills that Gates has, may be how many times the above string appears... Who knows? I DO know that Windows does keep many files "hidden" from ever being seen, and these files DO contain every SEARCH you have EVER done in IE, and contains every EMAIL message, intact, that you ever sent or received. (don't look for it, it hides itself, since the OS is aware of this file being HIDDEN, it will never display it in any listing, or boot, from within Windows, or DOS, not quite sure, but I think, if you can find it on the disk (somewhere) you might be able to see it, and view it, from another OS (like Knoppix, or Linux) ?????

Anyway, you want to know whats "under the hood" in Knoppix, or Linux? Just look at the source - its even given to you - freely... Don't like something, just "cut" it out, and compile. That is, by far, more "open" than Windows, and a lot more "accountable" than Windows...

IE, even, doesn't have the "bullet-proof" ness as Mozilla does, you can "lock-down" Mozilla to the point "nothing" gets loaded, viewed, or downloaded to your system - IE can't even get "cookies" under control... Try to delete cookies and files from within Internet Explorer, and even though it SAYS it did it, go to the folder it uses to store this stuff, and SURPRISE - files and cookies STILL exist - yeah right, M$, you deleted them, yeah, sure...

Take this "simple" problem with Internet Explorer, and expand it into a OS view, whos to say the same thing isn't going on??? You delete this file, like deleting a download file in your Internet Explorer, did it REALLY delete the file from your system, or did it just PRETEND to??? Who knows? Worse yet, you don't have a way to know either...

When I boot my system, I know what is loading, I know what is running, and I know, what it should be doing - in Windows - it could have programs hidden from view, which cause "unpredictable" things to start, stop, connect, or save data or files to who knows where... In Knoppix, I know, I can see it, I have "control" over it, and "I" alone... Not Mr. Gates, not M$, not any program "I ever installed", no one, just me...

As you said, Durand, "phoning home" is only half the battle, its inherintly in the Operating System to do whatever it wants to, and in many ways, you are powerless to do anything about it, unless you kill something, delete something, which, somehow, causes the complete Operating System to fail, not a nice option of "control", I think.

This "one" click bar in Internet Explorer was just this same way... I ran SpyBot, it found it, and upon removing it, the dialer was still active, and the system wouldn't boot - I force removed the registry entry, and upon reboot, the dialer placed itself back in - I removed it again, and STILL it was active in Internet Explorer - I removed it from starting in the IE applets, and it still thinks it is on the system, sheesh, about the only thing I figured would resolve the issue was a complete "Gut and reinstall" of the OS - not exactly what I call "user control" here... I finally, after numerous "deletes" and reboots, finally got the durn thing OFF and not running...

I like, like you said Durand, Knoppix/Linux, for the fact I control what goes ON and OFF my system, I control what runs and doesn't run on MY system, I control MY system, because it is MINE. Not M$, not Bill Gates, no one but me, owns my system, and what I do with it is my business, and what I choose to use to do what is my business, is, again, my business, period.

I lived with the "issues" of M$, and its OS, for far too many years, living with all its "issues" blindly figuring I had too, not any more. Mr. Gates can take his OS, and IE, and VC++, and VB, and Office, and put it where, I think, most of his money is going - right up where the sun don't shine :!: Cause he AIN'T gettin any more of my money for the above stuff - if he wants me to spend it on mice, or keyboards, then fine, those can stay, at least until Logitec can beat his pants off with there own products, but his software is "more for the rich" than for the poor, and the rich buying his software, are soon to become the poor, with his prices...

As you said Durand, his OS prices, his Office prices, and you forgot, if you want to develop and software, around $399 for VB, not sure, but I think VC++ is going for round the same as well - $399 :!: just to develop programs :!: who has that kind of money? Corporations, thats all, the little person doesn't have that kind of moola to squander. Linux/Knoppix comes with development software "standard" and included, and if you want something else to use, just search for it, it probably already is a package waiting to "apt-get install" - free...

Mr. Gates, and M$ for that matter, have become "gluttons" for money, and I think, Knoppix, and Linux, and all its flavors, are just what the world of "common" people need, something that isn't so much interested in "MONEY" but in the product quality, and that it does what it says, and doesn't go behind your back doing things it shouldn't...

[rant off]
Cuddles

[j.drake]

Cuddles,

Let's put things into perspective. Sure, $100-$500 is a lot of money compared to available open source alternatives, but compared to enterprise software, proprietary OSes (e.g. UNIX from IBM, Sun, HP), and even fairly ubiquitous enterprise-level software (e.g., JD Edwards, Oracle, etc.), MS is a dadgum bargain, and cheap software wouldn't be here if MS hadn't helped to enable the PC revolution (if it weren't for that, we'd all still be begging administrators to let us timeshare mainframes, and paying through the nose for the privilege). So before you rant too long about MS's greed, look where we started out, where MS put us, and consider how many open source apps would exist if: (1) the PC revolution had never started., and (2) if they didn't have some pre-existing PC or Mac software that they were trying to emulate. Those fees pay for the development of the apps that the folks on sourceforge are trying to emulate in open source. Also, consider that XP is pretty dadgum stable, and that the security issues that everyone criticizes them for arose primarily because we all wanted the autonomy and flexibility of administering our own personal computers. It's pretty easy to love linux when you're the root, and you can do whatever you want to your own computer. But when it's someone else who locks down everything other than what they think you "need", sometimes it's worth giving up a little security for the sake of flexibility and autonomy.

That having been said, I share your frustrations with MS, and agree that it's too expensive given the alternatives. But open source just isn't ready yet to force MS off of its perch. Hopefully, it will be soon, but not yet. I'm not a big fan on MS (hey, I'm here, right?), but sometimes the other side needs to be considered tool.

[homer]

The only reason I feel the need to keep up to speed with Microsoft gear these days is because part of my business involves programming telephone systems.

The phone system manufacturers, Panasonic, Siemens et al. pretty much only provide programming tools for those systems via the latest version of whatever ms happen to be offering at the time. They like the lock-down attitude as it means they can restrict configuration access to their own 'approved' installers, after extracting a good few hundreds of pounds each quarter for the 'update training course' and 'updated manual for version xyz'

Trouble is, many companies I've worked for in the past have taken the attitude that if they've 'employed a bloody engineer' 'for god's sake', why should they then have to spend more money on such a regular basis for their training.. there's an attitude amongst (technically clueless) management in some quarters that these repeated courses and updates are really just an excuse for engineers to go on a junket and get some skive off work at the companies' expense. Management's priority is so often maximising profit, cutting costs, rather than providing a technically competent service. And so, the situation evolves that joe engineer is refused many training courses under the ethos that 'we've only just sent you on the bloody KXTD course for heavens sake'..

In a perfect world every company would realise that their engineers need the right tools to do the job correctly - but we simply don't live in a perfect world.

What do these engineers then do? They swap manuals and programming tools. On site, over the Internet, in the pub.. whatever.. it's the only way to continue in their jobs. If they are prevented from doing so, the customer takes the flak. The engineer turns up, can't connect to the system, or can't connect correctly because he is using tool version 2 when he should be using tool version 6 etc.. does a cock-eyed job and sods off home, hoping 'it'll be allright'. Couple of months later everyone realises some kind of misconfiguration has added a couple of thousand quid to the 'phone bill..

It's thus my belief that at the sharp end, the closed nature of Windows and the forthcoming lockdown of information under DRM in that OS can only lead to problems in society - behind every system there's a configuration engineer who may well be employed by a company exhibiting this kind of mentality. Expect more cock-ups at the checkout till, at the bank teller, and worse..

These problems would be far less I believe if Microsoft were to charge reasonably and desist from integrating draconian information control systems into their software. It's the exhorbitant cost that makes many feel ripped-off, not the simple fact that they are charged. Witness a young lady student for whom I set up a computer recently. She is anything but rich. She didn't mind paying the going rate for the hardware, even took the cost of XP in her stride.. but she blew a gasket at the cost of ms office which is mandatory for her course (OO would not do). I'm making damn sure she's aware of Knoppix / Debian / Linux software alternatives so that when she finally completes her course and goes into full time employment, maybe she'll help spread the word a little..

[Durand Hicks]

Let's not forget it was us who got M$ where they are today. Before M$ came up with the activation scheme and software assurance that is turning me off (and I suspect a lot of folks are too but they won't admit it), we bought one copy and put it on as many computers as we owned, even told our family about it, in turn they told their friends and so on, and loaded it on their computers and M$ was silent about that for a time as that got the word out faster than sliced bread (read: free advertising). I bought dos, windows 3.11, NT, 2K, and finally XP Pro. It was xp that started to turn me off. The activation scheme made me feel like a criminal, even though I legally purchased my copy of xp. FWIW, M$ does have some good software, and NT as well as w2k was IMO, the best windows compared to the rest of the offerings they came out with. Also, there are some good third-party shareware programs that was worth the money I paid for. Their prices were reasonable, their software didn't always phone home, and allowed for us to do with it as we please in the privacy of our own home (for the most part), and most importantly, it didn't make us feel like a criminal after buying it. Look at Redhat and Suse for example. You could buy their software, tell your family and friends about it, have them load it on their computers and not worry about being a criminal in the process. Whether open source is depending on M$ for their existence, that's an issue I'm not going to debate. Enterprise software is for big business and you can't expect consumers like us to shell out serious moolah for software we don't need/ use. I can understand if some consumers want to use some enterprise features in their software, and that's a legimate concern where it's appropriate. One thing I forgot to address is internet explorer being integrated into the operating system, that was one thing I didn't ask for and didn't want. But M$ forced that upon everybody, whether we liked it or not. Personally, I don't care if they gave it away for free (or charged for it) separately, but I do care if they are going to tie it to the operating system. Also, in windows, you are root (administrator in M$ speak) in all of the operating systems by default. Where's the security in that? Not so in linux/unix/bsd, where you have to switch to root to get the important stuff done. As far as the learning curve in Linux, the point I was trying to make was that it needs a little more polishing for the newbies, as for us, who are already getting used to it, we don't need it, unless we learn to write scripts or batch files that can serve as a nice frontend to the many cli tools we use. Those scripts in turn would serve to make things easier for newbies to get a handle on linux and not force them to ask for help and get told to rtfm. I'm not saying linux users in general are snobs, it's just that it's different enough that newbies feel bewildered by all the choices (and commands) available, that they don't know what to do, and as a linux user, I know exactly how that feels when I first got started. This is why M$ isn't getting knocked off anytime soon, but as they get more restrictive and open source gets more easier, the tide will turn and M$ will get knocked off, but *not* before then.

[nishtya]

I hear where some of you are coming from about the supposed 'linux snobs", I feel that way when I venture into the debian forums and hear (or rather not) the wall of silence that befalls someone with a good question but has been silly enough to mention their debian is from a knoppix install :shock:

I have been or was, :cry: in IT long enough to recognize there was what amounted to a "boyz club" though not all of us were boyz :D I buckled down, read like crazy, built better systems and literally beat it into them that I was "worthy". Mom and Pop user shouldn't have to do that to get answers to a question, help with a stubborn problem, of course. But look at like even what is going down in the Mandrake forums now - people really nasty bitching that community 10 stinks and they are being treated like beta testers. Duh. Community is what it is about, it is not a "general public" official release, yes they are beta testers for gawd's sake.

The question is whether Linux is "ready for prime time". Mom and Pop, in my humble opionion, don't stand a chance. It can't be polished anymore than say Lindows which is what I shot for first lately. It said it was very GUI-ey like windows (no lie) It said it would recognize my hardware (also, no lie right down to my dreaded winmodem) the dreaded winmodem even connected!. It couldn't go any further than that however, it didn't really work and woe be to anyone that doesn't want to buy into CNR and tries to compile (ahh, my calling in linux life these days) drivers for the damned thing.

M$ like any monopoly, like any absolute power, has corrupted its kingdom. We are all now feeling the aftershock of that. I have had IE neutered (like my mice) at home now for ages. I used it only when absolutely necessary. Mozilla (before that Netscape) was always my choice of browser. But Mom and Pop generally don't stand chance at installing it (hey, dont forget these are people that double click hyperlinks on every damned webpage) and even if they found a support forum, the odds of them making a decent case of a problem is zilch. They are going to be ignored or flamed.

**sigh** linux is great and I am trying to bring it to my masses (that amounts to the hopelessly clueless at work). I am no longer in IT, and even my habit of downloading linux iso's comes under scrutiny (hey, try to make those ISO names a little more business sounding - try convincin them Bug Hunter is an operating system :)
But I keep at it. I like newbies. Ok, I tolerate newbies. My start was three years in an online help room on AOL. But, if you are trying make sense of the M$ monoply, you have to dig deeper. Sociology, Psychology. Or AOL.:P

Somewhere along the line, computers became a household disposable like blowdryers. And the operating system is just plain old 'lectricity. The majority in my opinion isn't looking any further than that.

Pardon me while I go compile a kernel or two for the umpteenth this week :lol:

[Cuddles]

OMG Nish, you were on the "front-lines" for phone support of AO-Hell ??? I used to be the same for MSN and the "roll-out" for Win98 - at Microsoft in Tucson, AZ...

I "know" what "common" computer people are... The kinds you had to decide in 30 seconds talking to a customer, if you were going to show them how to get into the registry, or that in the back of there computer "it had four or five screws"...

Some people are not "knowledgable" enough to deal with looking inside the computer, nor something as serious, as it is in Win98, the registry - you just don't let them go there...

I had customers that actually called, on MSN support, that would go out to there mail box and check there snail mail, because the durn computer told them, "they had mail" (true story)

Or, the one who almost had me believing they PAID $45 for AOL - until I realized they actually bought a MODEM, and AOL came in the box with it - unfortunately, they thought the modem was actually packing material, and threw that away...

MSN Phone Support sobered me into what "the real world" was like, what the "common" person was, and in most cases, the "standard" intelegence of them, when it came to computers. These are the kinds of people who are running Windows, on average.

True, Ol' Mighty M$ did bring us away from the Time Share Life, but, as with all things, when an apprentice becomes smart enough to compete with there master, they are left to go out on there own. Many "apprentices" are smarter than M$, and are going out on there own now...

You give credit where credit is due, doesn't mean you have to bow down to them as God, for it. IMHO, M$ fits a certain niche, people who don't know, or don't care, about what is "inside" that computer box, the kind of people who just want to "figure out" where the power switch is, and use a computer, go on-line, and say to MA, hey look, I got an email :!:

M$ knew what market they were selling to, and made sure there product was as intuitive to them as it could possibly be. SERIOUSLY, I don't think any OS, other than from M$, can do the same thing. I HONESTLY think that any OS that "lowers" itself to that level, would have just the same problems that Windows has. Not bashing M$, or for that matter, Windows, or its users, just a factual observation. Windows is targeted, as you know, Nish, as AOL is, to the "simpletons" of the computer world. The ones who are clueless about RAM, a hard drive, or even what a IRQ or memory address are, they don't know what a lot of the acronyms are for, nor do they care, and that is just fine for them. As they would say, why should I have too???

I do not see a "common" OS, any longer, in the computing future - some people will never "grasp" another OS that isn't "just like" Windows, and then, as we are seeing, others who will be willing to risk ridicule and hardships to deal with a OS that is not Windows - for pain, or gain...

I am happy with Linux - and I mean all flavors - we are a "common" OS in my thoughts - If I had RedHat, I would accept someone who had Mandrake, or Debian, or SuSE, etc... I don't make distinction on "flavors"...

Enuf said, this time,
Cuddles

[nishtya]

Not phone support, Cuddles. Worse even. Online. You want to try to "talk" a newbie through cutnpaste in an IM? LMAO. Try sitting up at 2am (after working your day -paying- job with somebody that had chernobyl and never gave a hoot about what a boot disk is :o ) we made fun of the phone jockeys working from scripts and getting paid. We were the real trenches. The UNpaid community volunteers (and now I am into linux.......hmmmmm) Half my assignments, and my first, was teaching people how to get that porn spread off as their wallpaper when they clicked "set as" instead of "save as" and clearing the most recent document list of "my stepdaughter doing the neighbor's three german shepards". No lie. War stories. Check out the George forums sometime, you'll love them http://chroniclesofgeorge.nanc.com/

But I don't have any regrets about that time, sometimes I bring it up in interviews, sometimes I don't :lol: It is where I learned a lot, enough to get me started that once I read, and learned a lot MORE that I could then make a living at it. I even kept an AOL account byoa for the community aspect of it and the friends I made long after I got a "real" isp and a "real" IT career lmao. Real ISPs turned out to be one local after another who got eaten up by the conglomerates, BTW, but another story. Even today I have kept my old hardearned handle in an AIM (now GAIM) nick and link up often enough that I get to keep it.

Anyhow, the mentality point I was making and you got, for a great majority of users out there, they don't care what is under the hood. They put gas in it: it goes. End of discussion. If it is free, cool. If it's pretty, also cool. And astonishingly enough for some of my customers now, they are intrigued by linux's resistance to viruses and other nuisances.

All perceived "elitism" aside, if it is dumbed down enough for them - will it still be worth it? I dunno. Although a little more documentation on lm sensors is surely needed :wink:

[mharazin78]

I recently said $^%& you to Bill Gates and burnt knoppix to a cd, popped it in and watched with amazement while it recognized all my hardware! (with the exception of my soundcard) Windoze could never do that without having to install drivers. So I played around for a good hour and a half and decided to install it to the HD. All I can say is I will NEVER run windoze again! I've been tortured and aggravated by their crappy products since DOS came out, enough is enough!

I run a small tech consulting firm, so I'm not completely new to Linux. I had been wanting to make the change for years, but it seemed like every time I had my mind set on a particular distro, I'd see another one that looked better. So anyway... the other day after having to download yet another $#%$^#&^$$ security patch for microcrap I decided it was time to start running Linux on everything.

I started out with College Linux since I already had it on disk. I installed it on an older 800 MHZ AMD workstation which was given to me when one of my customers had to upgrade due to buying windoze xp. Soon as it was up and running I knew that was it. Now it's time to install it on the server. I have a Dell PowerEdge 400sc which was running 2000 server. I found Knoppix while looking at Debian and decided to give it a try. 2 hours later, my server is screaming!! I'm kicking myself for not doing this sooner!

I only have one problem with the whole thing... Knoppix just refuses to see my soundcard. Oh well... who cares, it runs a billion times better than any microcrap product.

So today I've decided to run Knoppix on my other 2 workstations (currently running xp) and a very old compaq deskpro 133 MHZ which has been sitting in the closet for 2 years.

So here's my question.. Anybody try installing knoppix on something as slow as my deskpro? If so.. how did it run? It's not exactly critical to get that thing up and running, but it would be nice to use it as a fileserver.

Anyway.... I've been converted and I'll never go back!

[OErjan]

eeeh, should run well on something as fast as that (relatively speaking) .
i have it on a p1@100Mhz 72Mb ram and 6Ghdd (recently bought secondhand).
works ok.
I use icewm as it would lag beyond berable with KDE.