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Fabianx
04-08-2004, 07:03 PM
Hi,

I'm just back from vacation and want to inform you, why Knoppix is not out already:

1. We are over with 65 MB (KDE 3.2.1 is big!). So we need to delete some stuff, but what? (Proposals can be written based on last edition of 3.3 as programs almost remain the same, but get bigger ... :-/ )

2. The Debian-Menu is integrated into the K-Menu as an Submenu, which is not very nice. for KDE 3.1 we had an script to automatically integrate the "Debian-Programs" into the KDE K-Menu.

Klaus already asked on debian-knoppix mailinglist:

http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermail/debian-knoppix/2004-April/004953.html

But no one did answer. I'll try to make it work, but any help is appreciated.

3. You surely want to have the newest Kernel 2.6.5 and OpenOffice 1.1.1?

cu

Fabian

PS: Thats what _I_ know a the moment ...

Aleu
04-08-2004, 07:51 PM
You surely want to have the newest Kernel 2.6.5 and OpenOffice 1.1.1?

Yep, what about removing Koffice (Kword, Kexcel ...)? Since OO gives you much more options, what is the point to keep them both?
I vote for removing Koffice!

aleu[/quote]

j.drake
04-08-2004, 07:51 PM
Thanks, Fabian. I've never anticipated a Knoppix release so much as this.

As for item #3, absolutely - must have new kernel and OOffice.

As for the other issues, it's time to go to DVD. It really is. It's overdue. The old excuse about the affordability of DVD burners just doesn't hold water anymore - they can be had for under $70 now in multiple formats. So many people have been asking for it, and the only dissenting voice I've heard is Klaus's. They are way cheaper now than CD burners were when Knoppix was launched. Besides, you can buy a preburned DVD and DVD player for less than it costs to ship them. And, if anyone really wants a CD - hey, leave version 3.3 on the mirrors indefinitely - it's great for that purpose.

OK, everyone start chanting with me so that Klaus himself can hear us . . . .

WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!! :wink:

alaing
04-08-2004, 08:02 PM
The CD format is very handy for virus scanning/recovery work on unknown PCs. Every PC has a CD reader, but not always a DVD reader, Knoppix has saved my day too many times on CD...

If you have a CD you can always do a HD install and apt-get any apps you need... I am also in favour of kicking out KOffice, but please keep kstars... I really use it to plot the night sky in our observatory here... :wink:

See you on the bitstream, Alain

OErjan
04-08-2004, 09:31 PM
my vote is to remove koffice and add dvd+rw-tool, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ .
perhaps remove a few windowmanagers? twm, iceswm and kde should suffice for most things (i know i know, the others will be missed by me aswell).
oh, and KEEP THE CD FORMAT. i have a dvdburner but...

valonso
04-08-2004, 09:40 PM
I would change Mozilla for another lighter browser.

Another way to save space would be to make 2 or 3 different versions depending on the supported languages. For example: If you dowload the english version, you don't need all the german stuff (otherwise you would have downloaded the german version).

I propose:
1 version with: English, German, French, Spanish ...
another one with: Japaneese, Turkish, .....
another one with: ...., ...., .....

Regards.

Víctor.

baldyeti
04-08-2004, 10:28 PM
Another way to save space would be to make 2 or 3 different versions depending on the supported languages. For example: If you dowload the english version, you don't need all the german stuff (otherwise you would have downloaded the german version).
I guess maintaining several localised versions would mean a lot of extra work with every release, to prepare the CD's, upload them, take their MD5... But maybe it could be possible to adopt something like morphix's on-the-fly deb installation? If only in a limited way, namely for the KDE big i18n packages. With a base version supporting DE+EN, and such a mechanism clearly documented, it could be up to the national LUGs to prepare and provide localised builds...

Oh, and please stick to the CD format unless the aim is to turn knoppix into a geek toy instead of a broadly usable demo and rescue system. Also keep Mozilla (composer is useful, mail spam protection is decent out of the box), possibly providing a few additional themes to refresh its looks (eg orbit3+1, pinball). If at all possible, retain KOffice, if only to provide its developers with more feedback (plus, think of this: what happens when Sun can't afford to support OOo anymore?)

agent_smith
04-08-2004, 11:09 PM
Hello team,
Fabian, thank you for posting this!

In my humble opinion, CD should remain the common format just a while longer. Perhaps the 800MB high capacity CDs but still - CD. DVDs don't even have a single standard yet, whereas few if any PCs have no CD-ROM.

1. KOffice should deffinetely be out to save some space
Perhaps some of the EDUTAINMENT & GAME items should also go?

2. I cannot comment on something I don't quite understand

3. Newest kernel + latest OOo - now that would be just superb. As long as it is feasible, of course.

Good luck team,
Smith

Rink
04-08-2004, 11:25 PM
Fabian,

You just don't know how many people i've shown Knoppix to (and handed out cds for them to try out), Knoppix has certainly done an extraordinary amount to promote linux amongst those that were under the impression that the only alternative to windows is the mac.

You guys have done a fabulous job, and, like everybody on this forum, I'm eagerly awaiting the v3.4

What to leave out? Well, the suggestions made so far are very fair, basically whether we need two Office suites.

Duplication in languages is also probably not necessary (what? you mean that not everyone understands german?;)

And a dvd format or possibly a 2CD format could also be a solution (using a poor man's HD install).

Many thanks once again...

SonGoCHaiN
04-08-2004, 11:26 PM
I vote 4 new kernel and openoffice too. Koffice removed and all the games because who play with those games?? A precompiled driver for nvidia cards would be a good idea.
And... since 3.3 i cant tuned my tv-card (bt848) using the same configuration :(
Thanks 4 all !

Hunkah
04-08-2004, 11:45 PM
OK I know I am a knewbie <- get it? Ummm anyway, I agree that koffice is usless, I use Open Office on my Windows machine. It is what most people seem to use.

I also think Firefox and Thunderbird should replace Mozilla, Mozilla seems to be falling behind in the polls.

I don't think a DVD writer is needed in a CD-Rom version of Knoppix, cause who would use it?! It seems so weird.

Keep the games, that is what newbies will go to first. I know that some of you don't care for games, but knoppix is like the messiah of Linux. I think most converts come to know Linux through Knoppix. Therefore, games will keep them logged on for that much longer.

I think anything that makes linux easy to use or tutorials on what linux is, should be kept or added to knoppix. I myself have been learning about Linux only because I loaded a Knoppix disk. I almost gave up after my first three install failures of Linux. Knoppix was the only one that I could get to work.

So, anyone that feels the need to burn me... Here is your chance. Just know that I still stand behind what I have said.

henla464
04-09-2004, 12:02 AM
I agree, KOffice can be removed.

I would also like to have Firefox and Thunderbird instead of Mozilla. But they take more space than Mozilla does so it might be hard to do that.

Personally I don't care about games.

Are you planning on including both 2.4 and 2.6 kernel? In that case, why? Isn't 2.6 good enough? I would remove 2.4.

I think KDE and one lightweight windowmanager is enough.


I have no DVD burner, please continue to distribute knoppix on CD!

/Henrik Larsson

Bobmeister
04-09-2004, 02:13 AM
I agree about Koffice, it can go away...just about EVERYONE is using OpenOffice now as the best suite for that stuff. What about pairing down on some of the games? I know that a lot of them come bundled together, but I'm sure that klaus can figure out a way to strip some out.

I have been using the 2.6.5 kernel now for a grand total of 1 hour on a Fedora Test machine...the latest and greates should be in there. But ALL of the applications are getting bigger as they also get better.

65MB, huh? Hmmm...a lot of stuff in there, you know? This IS a tough one.

I would do the DVD also, however, the CD format should be around for a long time as per the reasons stated by others above.

It would be interesting to find out what is actually ignored in the distibution...stuff that is hardly EVER used....like a survey or something to help in the decision, however that probably would take too long...

Just thinking out loud....

Hunkah
04-09-2004, 02:31 AM
I would take a survey, I am sure most would. I think that to delay the next release to do a survey would drive everyone mad, but maybe do one for the release after that?

hkfczrqj
04-09-2004, 02:39 AM
Hi

I agree on saying goodbye to KOffice... maybe some games... i18n stuff is a really tough one.

BTW, it's a good idea to have a DVD version in addition to the CD.

Cheers...

perlwiz
04-09-2004, 02:41 AM
Fabian,

I agree with removing Koffice and reducing the number of window managers. I think that removing some of the games is also fine.

What about releasing what you have now (65 MB to large) for a DVD only "test" version to hold the masses at bay until you finish trimming down the CD version?

#!/usr/bin/PERLWIZ

C0SM0S--
04-09-2004, 02:45 AM
Please don't remove the games. I see Knoppix fullfilling a many roles. One of the those roles is it's ability to show the Windows user that there are viable open source alternatives. My wife found the games 30 seconds after booting the disk. That experiance alone can convince someone that Linux is not "just for hackers and geeks". I don't play the games but, don't underestimate the value that they can have initially/instantly.

Knoppix should stay CD based as long as possible. Many people are using Knoppix on laptops that are not easily upgradeable to DVD.

MongooseNX
04-09-2004, 02:54 AM
I'm pretty new to Linux, and Knoppix was what finally convinced me to to dedicate a partition to Linux (HD Install).

I agree that K-Office can go. Also I don't really need JPilot or KPilot. Also there seems to be an excess of Text editors.

The best part about Knoppix for me is that if I screw up too many settings, I can easily and quickly reinstall the whole thing again, so for that I'd prefer to stick with a CD instead of a bloated DVD.


JMHO

Robert

coolestuk
04-09-2004, 02:57 AM
It is one of the fantastic things about Linux that we have so many different WM/Desktop Environments to choose from. I'm working on a project using Knoppix to bring computer use to poorer countries, and one of the things I need to do is to provide stripped down desktops for the sake of simplicity/ease of use/language barriers. We cannot train people to use complex desktops from the beginning. I have found Window Maker to be the easiest to simplify. Also, please keep the terminal server in there - it is vital for us.

I would suggest removing a) _some_ games (I'm no gamer, but I can imagine they might be useful to some people) b) removing Koffice.

Perhaps better to stay with Mozilla until Thunderbird/Firebird are more established - and another way is found to free up space.

Knoppix is great, and is making our project possible. We also hope to raise funds, and will look to plough some of that back into Knoppix.

Neo-Rio
04-09-2004, 03:04 AM
Kick Koffice.
Stick to one browser. Nobody uses Konqueror for web surfing.
Chop out some of the games. Stick to the Solitaire/Minesweepers. While forzen bubble and Nethack are good, if people really want them, they can get them elsewhere.
How many disk partitioning softwares do we need? fdisk, cfdisk, Qtparted..... I mainly use fdisk. Qtparted is a bit bloated.
Chop out some of the Xtools.... but keep the calculator of course!
Do we really need all four shells? Stick to bash!
Bochs and wine..... hmmm. Wine is essential, bochs is not.
Who really uses all the development tools? Keep emacs of course.

And for goodness sakes, will someone put a configurable firewall script in Knoppix for the HD installers? I'm thinking about arno's iptables.... it's small and powerful.

kovk
04-09-2004, 03:18 AM
First I'd like to agree about koffice. I also agree about removing mozilla since Firefox loads a lot faster from the cd. Its odd though, firefox is supposed to be a lot lighted but when you apt-get it it seems to take up quite a bit of room, so I don't know. I would definately get rid of tetex since it takes lots of room and probobally most people don't have much of a use for it on a cd. On my remaster I got rid of some of the cad and drawing programs. If you wanted to make a few different versions for different regions you could save a lot of space getting rid of extra language support but you probobally won't like that idea. I'd get rid of some of the excess text editors too (and to be counterproductive, install the pico clone nano)

eadz
04-09-2004, 03:47 AM
In defence of Kword etc, sure in KDE 3.1 it wasn't that good, but I am using the new version, and it's improved greatly. It can read/write MS word files and I think it would be a shame to remove it. I vote to remove some of the less used programs such as say gnumeric and maybe the kde games.. also maybe some of the hard out development tools such as kdgb.. if developers need them they will know how to download them

Henn
04-09-2004, 04:03 AM
Has there been any consideration of modifying cloop to use a better compression algorithm such as bzip2/libzip2 (http://sources.redhat.com/bzip2) or 7zip (http://www.7-zip.org/)?

It would certainly alleviate some of the space concern at the cost of speed.

Bobmeister
04-09-2004, 04:12 AM
What a great tribute to the Open Source software movement. People are FIGHTING over what they want! I think that says a lot for how far things have come from just a couple of years ago. Koffice HAS gotten MUCh better than before. I mean..there is ABIWORD also for Word processing...nice. Look at all of the choice!

This is what make this whole thing so great. Knoppix is ALSO THE REASON that I am running Linux over 95% of the time and only reluctantly do I go the other 5% because of "one" thing at work. Some want to keep the games...that's great too!

This is what makes this whole thing so wonderful.

Keep the GIMP!

Aleu
04-09-2004, 04:44 AM
Guys!

Why should we keep OO along with Koffice and Abiword? Since most of us agree that OO is a must, let's remove Abiword and Koffice. This will save us lots of space. I agree with one of you who mentioned that there are too many text editiors such as Kate, Kwrite and many more. I propose to remove most of the games keeping Frozen bubble and adding Rocks and Diamonds for example (my favorite). What else?
Lets remove Apache :-) just kidding.

Seriously, chromium takes lots of space and requires stronger graphics card...
Next, languages - OK I understand that Knoppix has to be universal, but keeping all these languages (tr, nl, ja, da...)? Well, I am not trying to discriminate anyone but lets keep the most popular languages (Oh yes, I heard you - which one are the most popular...?)
Konqueror is a must (please do not remove it!)

Well, that's all I wanted to say. What do you think? (Please do not hit me!)
Fabianx - how much space would this give you?

Thnx

cintra
04-09-2004, 05:23 AM
Save 30MB in a stroke by removing Mozilla and replacing it with Opera 7.50!

aay
04-09-2004, 05:57 AM
In defence of Kword etc, sure in KDE 3.1 it wasn't that good, but I am using the new version, and it's improved greatly. It can read/write MS word files and I think it would be a shame to remove it. I vote to remove some of the less used programs such as say gnumeric and maybe the kde games.. also maybe some of the hard out development tools such as kdgb.. if developers need them they will know how to download them

I have to agree with you EADZ that the 3.2 version is much better. In fact I was just playing around with Kword today. You can embed an incredible number of objects from other koffice apps in a kword file. It's also improved as a Desktop publishing app (though I'm really getting into using Scribus now). No one can have all their favorite stuff kept in, but I hope Klaus can find a some other apps to remove first. If he is not going to upgrade Rosegarden to the newest version, then please remove the old version that is still included in Knoppix. It's pretty useless compared to what the current versions can do.

bfree
04-09-2004, 06:19 AM
How about Latex/Lyx et al? Do people really want them on the live CD? Does anything of any note depend upon them? Would they be missed? Completely stripping all trace of them out would (if my memory serves me correctly) remove enough to save 65M! Also I would agree with others mentioning the duality of Mozilla, I would be happy to see only one mozilla (either the full suite, or the components, not both) and gnumeric strikes me as another potential removal (if you have KOffice and OpenOffice.org having yet another spreadsheet seems too much (and out of place, KOffice goes with KDE and OO.o seems to be the overall default choice))?

wooac
04-09-2004, 06:57 AM
Why not have two separate versions? A minimalist CD version
with only one office suite, no LaTeX, etc. Personally, I would
like to see about 100MB of free space on the minimal version
for easier customization.

Another DVD version with the usual packages found on most distributions.

oldgeezer
04-09-2004, 07:21 AM
Knoppix has become a global phenomenon; it is extremely important to get the next version right. Perhaps start by considering what cannot be excluded. That probably includes retention as a CDRom for all the reasons given so far. It is also relevent to examine what the opposition offers and what the overall objective might be. Regardless of what the image makers would have us believe, most of the world still uses a version of W9x; WXP has been and will continue to be an unmitigated disaster for the masses - hence the appeal of Linux. For so many years, the linux community constantly engaged in foot-shooting, navel-contemplation and preaching to the converted until Klaus' little miracle arrived. The IT cognoscenti can always take care of themselves - it is their profession. Therefore, the obvious course would seem to be to chop out all the duplicated development, networking and shell options from the general release and either issue or encourage development of a specialist version separately via the remastering section of this forum for the professionals?
Firefox is good, but if Opera with M2 is smaller that is also worth serious consideration; the Norwegians are also very helpful and flexible with assistance if a little more fat needs trimming. KOffice and browser may need to stay as the fall-back, akin to notepad and wordpad - useful when all else fails! An improved digital camera module seems essential and will not help in the final choices.
OG.

Edix
04-09-2004, 09:09 AM
I feel that knoppix/debian could become the prefered standard linux distro by allowing the end user to decide what packages ride on top of a minimal core with all the conflicting hassel's worked out in that core. The end user could then decide CD or DVD or HD etc... I know this has always been the case to those who have a deep grasp of custom building with knoppix (which I regretfully don't) Something similar in scope to morphix but using regular packages as opposed to a special format for modular additions maybe just better doc's on rolling your own or a tool to simplify the process? A solid core system with this flexability is the key I think. At least I hope to someday be able to build my own knoppix based CD's for several special purposes I have in mind and the odds of anyone having the same preferences to what I would like to see on these CD's are fairly low. Of course OO should be there as well as most if not all the standard X interfaces. Just my opinion but that is where I would like to see the focus remain.

PatrickAmf
04-09-2004, 11:08 AM
65Mb is pretty much. But there must be a way to make a perfect Knoppix live-cd.

I agree that KOffice is improving much. But I don't mind when it is not included in the next Knoppix. Maybe a shortcut/link to install it on the computer after a HD install. Like the Flash install link. Maybe it can be done with more programs.

Why 2 kernels? Go for the new 2.6 kernel. And technical/programming programs, people who want to use them probably know how to install them. So maybe some can be excluded from the CD.

I vote for a Knoppix which we can give to Linux Newbies (like me too :D) so they get to know Linux. Internet, E-mail, Office and games are the first things to start with.

To all from the Knoppix team, Thank You for a wonderfull CD!!! It is my first choice after trying RedHat, SuSE and Fedora.

OErjan
04-09-2004, 11:24 AM
good point, reduce the amount of devel tools.
it should be enough to compile from source but not much more.

sjmacko
04-09-2004, 12:19 PM
It is a wonderful product, and like many others here... It has saved my data in the past when WinXP became unbootable.

I've thought about my usage pattens with Knoppix, and I have to agree with the theme of this thread. I tend to open KOffice just to look at the state of development, and then quickly close it again. OO is the way to go. Koffice is a nice set of applications, but it is not as ready as OO, and not as widely accepted, even in the geek community.

I would also reconsider the amount of games and entertainment packages. For me, and probably most Knoppix users, Knoppix is a tool, not a toy. For those who end up doing a hard drive install, anything can be added later to suit taste.

Steve

Yakumo
04-09-2004, 12:24 PM
/me votes

koffice out.
mozilla out.

opera or firefox in (i can understand if u don't want opera as it's adware when not registered though).

2.6.5 kernel and OOfice latest in.

xchat out bersirc in? (if not then certainly look to upgrade xchat due to the recent proxy exploit ( http://www.osnn.net/comments.php?shownews=10239 ), birsircs UI, and new mirc script compatability is v nice though)

cintra
04-09-2004, 02:52 PM
opera or firefox in (i can understand if u don't want opera as it's adware when not registered though).


btw The Opera adware is very discreet... I run the commercial version on XP and the free version on Linux. The difference is negligible, and it makes an excellent partner to Konqueror.

No doubt its considered heresy by many Linux users ;-)

dona
04-09-2004, 02:52 PM
Hello,

I use Knoppix both for introducing new users and for system/network debugging. Hence I'm in favor of keeping games as well as tools like Nessus. I'd vote for removing open office for the prior stated reasons. I'd also vote for retaining the CD distro for the prior stated reasons. The same for the additional display managers.

Now, regarding the space problem....

The multiple language approach would cause a major restructuring on your part and hence would not be my first choice. Also, it's probably easier for those of us in the US to live with a mono-language distro than for Europeans, and this is a European distro.

Part of the the space problem seems to be due to the dual nature of Knoppix - both run from a CD and installed. Some of the utilities, like TeX, are more useful for an installed system, but I feel they are still very useful. KOffice fits into this category, too. Hence, if Knoppix splits into 2 CDs, the second might contain those applications more useful when installed on HDD. Also, since Knoppix is basically Debian, some enhanced form of package retriever might help with additional components.

Re the problem of 2.4 vs. 2.6 kernel... How about a split? Make 3.4 the 2.6 kernel line and 3.3 the 2.4 kernel line? Over time, as the 2.6 kernel line matures, you can then drop the 3.3 series.

I hope some of this is useful. Thanks for a wonderful distro. And good luck.

dona
04-09-2004, 02:54 PM
It always happens...

On my prior post, please replace "Open Office" with "KOffice" in the third sentence.

agent_smith
04-09-2004, 03:10 PM
Forgive my asking - why not consider the high density CDs (800MB)? If the ISO is 765 or even 785 MB, it would still fit in one of these...

This way, the community can:
1. Get its hands on 3.4 and chill for a moment
2. Prepare for a wide and detailed questionnaire - WHAT IS HOT and WHAT IS NOT?, to consider for the next release... I myself am prepared to answer to ANY questionnaire the KNOPPIX team has in place.

All of the above have noted key points to consider. One thing I believe is most important though - KNOPPIX should remain easy-and-accessible for newbies. It is the first step we need to help with - take care of the newbies. ;)

Smith

Rink
04-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Dona's suggestions make sense.

There is a dicotomy between the HD version and the live CD version. A solution might be a two CD distro, the first CD being a 'live' CD. The second CD would be tools which are more likely to be useful for an HD installation.

Personally, I'm a fan of some of the KOffice elements like gnumeric over the OO spreadsheet, but needs must.

lazarusbitmap
04-09-2004, 05:16 PM
I'm relatively new to Linux, and love the ease of showing providing a friend with a Knoppix CD. But I'm glad you guys have this problem -- because the one complaint I hear the most is there's too many programs scattered around, many of which do the same thing.

If a goal of Knoppix is to convert the masses of Windows users, I'd really simplify the next release. Just use one best of breed (hard to agree on, I know) application for each category. Cut back on the games to 4-5. Rethink the menus to make things more intuitive to newbies. Keep it clean, simple, and uncluttered.

If it were me, I'd keep it at KDE 3.2.1/Kernel 2.6 only, and put a GUI on the boot process for absolute newbie friendliness. (you can leave a command line option for the hard core).

I'm looking forward to whatever you come up with, and certainly appreciate all the hard work! Hope my suggestions are helpful.

popuman
04-09-2004, 05:36 PM
Fabian

I've been usin Knoppix for the last 10 months and it's been a joy. Personally I could live with KDE 3.2 and fluxbox as window managers. The rest I really don't use. Mozilla is a good package as far as web browsing/email/html editor and composer, but as far as browsing is concerned, I love Firefox. KOffice vs. OO. Hmmmm. It's a coin toss really, but either one of them will do. Most people use Knoppix as a rescue CD so I might be more inclined to the one office package that is more compatible and easier to exchange with Windows. I don't care much about games and development tools, but if you're gonna ditch Mozilla as a browser, make sure to have an html editor. Keep both kernels because 2.6 doesn't get along well with some machines, as well as it still has problem recognizing some hardware. Keep all partition tools and both knoppix-installer and knx-hdinstall options. I've lost count of how many times the knx-hdinstall script has done the job instead of hte knoppix-installer script.

Anyway it'd be nice to have a utility like klik or some install scripts for an antivirus and firewall utilities. I'd suggest guarddog for a firewall and f-prot for an antivirus.

Thanks Fabian and Klaus for your hard work.

Lino
04-09-2004, 05:52 PM
I'd vote for removing Acrobat Reader. Konqueror 3.2 displays PDF files a lot better then the aging AR 4.0 does. And Konqueror is the default file manager of KDE, not only a browser, so it probably will stay.

As to Koffice, I don't mind losing it, but the 1.3 version is pretty good and, because it is tightly integrated with KDE, it is relatively small. It is therefore more space-efficient to include it in a live CD.

I would like to keep TeX. Although it is irrelavant to many people, it is a treasure for many others. One of the major factors of Knoppix's success is its wide selection of applications, and Klaus and team have good sense regarding what should be included. But it comes to the time that we have to removed some of the apps simply because the software included are getting bigger while getting better. I'd like to see an online poll to rank apps in each category so as to help the Knoppix team to decide which one can be left out of the live CD.

Since this is my first post in this forum I would like to thank Klaus and all involved with high respect for their excellent work!

probono
04-09-2004, 05:58 PM
I agree about Koffice, it can go away...just about EVERYONE is using OpenOffice now as the best suite for that stuff.

I don't want to start a flame war, but a office program that takes several minutes to boot (actually far longer than the OS itself) is imho totally unacceptable, no matter how good it is. Especially since we are running from CD, OOo is not usable.

Instead, I would remove every application that provides functionality which is also natively provided by KDE 3.2.1, that would include Mozilla (use Konqueror and KMail), xchat and gaim (use Kopete), etc (you get an idea). The KDE apps have made considerable improvements over the past time.

Please keep in mind that the important thing about Knoppix is that you can run many *different* kinds of applications from a live CD, we really do not need redundancy that much (I know, choice is good, but there is the choice to hd-install, klik-install or use knoppix remasters focusing on different aspects).


DVD is not yet a real option because there are way too many PCs without DVD drives (e. g. notebooks).

It's time to debianize Knoppix and have a website where one can select which packages to include in a custom-made ISO... ;)

xstreamfisherman
04-09-2004, 06:32 PM
Wow! So many different opinions. I personally use a variety of the programs except for the games. However, if it was not for the frozen bubbles, I know a few people who would not boot this CD. I have now convinced probably 30+ people here in Florida to use Knoppix for surfing the Internet. It is the safest way!

It would be easier to list what I use then what I don't because there is so much on the CD. I think someone should create a poll listing the contents of the CD so we could mark what we use. What ever has the least we drop it! This would be more accurate than reading these posts.

EdlinUser
04-09-2004, 06:37 PM
First, Thanks Klaus, Fabian, Eadz, everybody. I copied the Knoppix CD to a HD partition last June and haven't looked back. No more Win98 for me. With my /home on another partition upgrading means simply replacing the CD files. I moved from 56k to DSL just to get the newer Knoppix releases.

So here's my thoughts:
KOffice goes, tho consider keeping KWord.
gnumeric goes.
Bochs goes.
LaTex/Lyx goes.
BASH is the only shell needed.
Most games go, tho keep KMahjongg (please!), Frozen Bubble, and a few card games.
2.6 is the only kernel I want. (2-16-04 otherwise.)
I have to have Konqueror and KMail.
Please keep the awesome KStars.
Consider adding: support for digital cameras and Quanta+.

Thanks again everyone.

nvgringo
04-09-2004, 06:55 PM
Some people don’t have a dvd burner or rom. I understand. A cd distribution would be perfect for those people. However, in addition to the cd version, I would like to see a big bloated 4.5 gig dvd UberKnoppix. I want to learn KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, Blackbox, windowmaker, and any others that will fit.
I would like to try Open Office, K Office, Abiword, and even Ted
Browsers? All of them. Games? There are not nearly enough on the cd. Open GL Xscreensavers you bet. Kmail, Evolution and 12 other email programs. Tools for installing, Tools for remastering. Well you get the Idea. I got my hands on a dvd version of cebit. It was nice. A little buggy but nice. Would it work if it were 4.5 gig I don’t know. But if it did it would be a useful and fun disk!
Whatever you decide I'm sure it will be great

moustache
04-09-2004, 07:28 PM
I noticed in the "unofficial" versions of knoppix 3.4 there is a live-cd apt-get type installation program that might solve all the space problems.

Please consider this:
Throw out EVERYTHING EXCEPT
- the 2.6 kernal with X support
- KDE 3.2 (including konqueror browser)
- dev tools and libs (including gcc compiler) to allow live installations
- drivers (including nvidia & ati graphics drivers)

Now people can download any utilities, office software, games, etc. they want and install them with the live-cd into the ramdisk.
Let the resulting download statistics tell you what the majority of people want.

Moustache

silvestrij
04-09-2004, 07:34 PM
My quick take on this:
a. Absolutely keep the CD-ROM as the main version, and only make DVDs for extra, kitchen sink functionality (games, apps, what-have-you). I've probably run Knoppix on something like 40 machines or so by now, and I think only one or two of them had a DVD *reader* in it. I certainly don't have a DVD burner, and I've probably given away a good 25 Knoppix CDs by now (some less used/appreciated than others - like for some programming students to test out C programming with Kate & gcc).

b. I have never used KOffice - I'm not entirely enamored with OO.o, but it probably has the most complete compatibility out there (which is really important for new users). I'm not knocking KOffice here, but I just never took to it - I have an enormous respect for KDE development, and really think their development model is great (very open). Personally, I use AbiWord & Gnumeric, and love how fast and streamlined they are - I have a slower laptop, and OO.o is a slug on it. As such, I'd ask that these two apps stay in, but would completely understand if they also took the cut for OO.o's sake.

c. Please keep WindowMaker :). Fast and clean, this is my window manager of choice, and it works quite well on some older machines that just choke on KDE.

d. I'm all in favor of Mozilla Firefox in lieu of Mozilla [Application Suite]. The former will be taking the latter's place in the future (some time frame possibly less than 12 months). I think we all know that it's faster, has a much cleaner interface, and just works well. Heck, I'm posting this from Firefox :).

zentu
04-09-2004, 07:56 PM
Big CD ?? NO, they have problems on some of my friends old computer, not to mention the compatability problems with some burners... and aquiring. As much as I hate to say it Koffice should go OOo works fine, and windows can use it. If you can convince the masses to slowly adopt the OSS ideaology, then the will fully embrace it. (first step to getting most of my friends to switch from MS to Linux is to show them the power (and problems) with open source software, and OOo on Win is the furthest I can push at some times. [if you don't belive that OOo has some issues, try to go through and set a document to center on a page, it is to stupid of a problem, when in MS office you can just chose to center on the page in the page settings]

Leave Moz', lose the 'Fox, when people need the features of Moz, fox won't cut it all the time, when I have issues with an HTML page, and I can't get the browser to work right, I need the HTML pages to be viewed in a composer interface to see the bad code. Leave Konquer also, it is one of the best ways to go through and browse files, plus it does everything else.

Lose some of the double and triple functionality for file editing, you don't need Abiword, I haven't met anyone who uses it anymore, and why do you need emacs, vi, etc. choose one or two of the most popular, let people learn.

As far as Nvidia 3D drivers go, I would say to place that on as a script or a document to follow, but not activily on the disk, what are you going to use 3d for on a bootable disk, you won't really use it until there are some games that can use it, which would probably come from a remaster, and they can include it. But this should be the first option to put on in the next version that doesn't have the 2.4 kernel, which should be kept for a few releases only to ensure that there are no issues with the current programs, i.e. I heard that cloop had some bugs that needed to be looked into to get working properly, but i don't know for sure.

As far as a DVD idea, I would say that Klaus should make it into the 4.0 tree, and "kill" the CD version in 3.x, he can actively persue the focus that he wants with out having to worry about the space issues in the short term.

A. Jorge Garcia
04-09-2004, 08:32 PM
I agree with probono. OO is impossible to use unless you hdinstall on a PIV! So, if you're going to drop an office suite, kill off the bigger one, KOffice or OO. I'm not sure, but I imagine its OO.

Further, I agree with keeping the CDROM format. CD drives are much more readily available for demoing Linux to noobies.

Also, games are a big hook to get noobies into Linux. So keep some games. In fact, get rid of some in preference for more LAN party style games (bzflag, freecraft, etc).

If you can make room, add nvidia drivers! Its a big hassle to run scripts everytime I do a hdinstall to get my nvidia cards working right....

Oh, and keep teTex and QLyx which are very useful!

EDIT: Oh, keep Mozilla, I love Composer!
Also, why keep 2 kernels??? Support 2.6 in KNOPPIX 3.4 and maintain KNOPPIX 3.3 with kernel 2.4 for a short transition period!

Well, that's my 2 cents.

Regards,
AJG

farvardin
04-09-2004, 09:13 PM
Probably I'm biaised but I think in addition to KDE (even if I don't like it much it's useful for having access to many configuration options), some window managers like icewm could be removed. FluxBox is nice, so it should be kept, and WindowMaker is very good, clean and fast even on my old computer.

I tried AbiWord, Koffice, KWord etc..., and even if OpenOffice takes time to start, it's MUCH faster to edit long texts with it than with the others (on an AMD K6 350 mhz, 200 mhz ram). I edited a text of around 120 pages with Abiword (rtf file), and tried to work with it, the scrolling between pages was far too slow. KWord crashed when I wanted to save my rtf file, and was much slow too. OpenOffice is more reliable than the others. As I said, it's long to start, but long texts can be edited efficiently and fast once it's in memory.

3 acrobat readers are too much. Ghostview is enough since it can read postscript too.

dosemu could be included

most games should be removed, even if knoppix could include at least a few (small) games for demonstration only.

Kstar is interesting, and also useful for educational purposes (to demonstrate to other ppl an original and nice software)

joe, zile and old useless editors are not needed. Of course you can't consider a unix system without Vi. About emacs, I personally don't use it, but it's propably usefull to some pple. In console, vim is the choice, in X-window, nedit is good.

About TeX, Lyx and such, probably ppl interested in this prefer to have in on hard drive and not on a "live-cd" ? It's so huge and requires so many library (for ex. if you want to write french or german texts you needs the dedicated libraries...), so it could be removed

FireFox and ThunderBird could replace Mozilla.

Nvidia drivers could be included it seems to be a common video card.

To sum up, I think Knoppix should be usable both on old and new computers (don't make it boot in 1200x... resolutions, and on DVD only... we still want to use our cdrom players), and oriented for an "office" usage (writing texts, using spreadsheets, going on internet, using emails, listening to / recording music, viewing / editing vector, 3d and bitmap graphics, maybe programming too...).
Some scientific tools should be included as well.

farvardin
04-09-2004, 09:34 PM
Forgive my asking - why not consider the high density CDs (800MB)? If the ISO is 765 or even 785 MB, it would still fit in one of these...


many old cdrom players can't run high density CDs.

About the space problem, why not include a modular compressed file with around 60 / 120 (or more ) extra megabytes for putting on an usb key ? For example there could be a 3d pack, with extra 3d applications, a game pack, a music pack (with trackers, soundrecorders, sequencers), etc.
I don't know if it's technically possible, and i don't have any usb key, but it could solve some of this space problem, and give some modularity to ppl who would like this ? Also while keeping a regular "knoppix" core for most users, those extra packs could be developped separately by fans of thoses special topics.

TyphoonMentat
04-09-2004, 09:37 PM
Just wanted to make a small point about an addition here - nano. I haven't tried any of the releases in the last month or two, so I'm unaware if it's been included or not.
I use joe instead, and it gets quite annoying when it makes lines flow to the next one, and then you have all those pesky backup files it creates as well. Nano's much more intuitive - it's great for simple admin tasks as it's quick and hassle-free.

peterx2
04-09-2004, 09:40 PM
I vote for removing Koffiice and Mozilla. Mozilla is easily loaded and is pretty time sensitive. As long as Konquerer is present, tailoring the system is easy. Kpackage may also be superflous. I use synaptic as it presents a good picture.
Alternatively consider the Mepis route of a second disk of stuff, possibly KDE. once XFree is working most stuff is easily added although KDE is a big one for 56k. (I live in the country.)
pete

coolmos
04-09-2004, 09:48 PM
To me, Knoppix should stay a CD based distribution. That is the only way to keep the huge userbase.

Removing applications could be done, but somehow i think you would alienate some users, whatever you choose.

The only way is to drop the 2.4 kernel. People who NEED the 2.4 kernel can use version 3.3 (or the Ct version). But to keep old kernels while Linux moves on is not good. 2.6 is a huge improvement.

I don't know if the kernel takes 65MB though. If that's not enough, drop some of the things that are double (office, editors, Acrobat Reader). If people already using Knoppix need that, they will get it. People new to Knoppix will get used to this new standard.

Please PLEASE do not drop the games. It is very useful to show the diversity of apps in Linux, and the quality in that.

DinB
04-09-2004, 10:24 PM
As a real newbie here are my thoughts

drop koffice, keep it as a CD distro, only have the 2.6 kernel and drop the lesser used duplications, you are not going to satisfy every one, but this thread will probably give the team a good idea of what is considered unnecessary.

:D :wink:

wooac
04-09-2004, 11:31 PM
Is there anyway to setup a minimal version of knoppix to remaster
on the fly? The steps would be

1. Boot into minimal knoppix.
2. Mount temporary disk space
3. Present the user a list of possible packages available over the net.
Let him select until reaching 700MB.
4. Remaster Knoppix.
5. Burn the CD.
6. Reboot but tell the user to remove the original CD.

Then everyone could have just the packages they want or don't want.

Alex

hkfczrqj
04-09-2004, 11:35 PM
Now people can download any utilities, office software, games, etc. they want and install them with the live-cd into the ramdisk.
Let the resulting download statistics tell you what the majority of people want.


That seems a good solution, BUT I know a LOT of people who use knoppix on systems that don't have Internet access (or that use dial-up, and can't download big programs), and can't do a HD install...

The TeX issue... I use it, but I mostly use a remastered version of knoppix (Quantian (http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian.html)) which includes a more complete TeX system. I won't miss it in knoppix. And, the faster the new knoppix is ready, the faster the remastered versions will update ;)

Hasse
04-10-2004, 12:05 AM
REMOVE:
kde-i18n-* (keep the relevant english/german ones)
All games, except Mahjong & frozen-bubble
koffice
gnumeric

If anybody would like Knoppix in their language, set up different versions similar to the german & english version. The i18n files take a lot of space, and whe can skip italian, spanish and so on.

Oh! Add icons to the menus for applications on disc, like nedit, xeyes and so on.

eco2geek
04-10-2004, 12:14 AM
There's one thing I'd like to see on Knoppix that has nothing to do with space constraints or applications, and that's the ability to load the configuration archive and the persistent home directory from the same volume (although that might not be technically feasible).

<edit>
Here's a radical idea -- many of you are familiar with the Captive project, which allows one to safely mount NTFS volumes read/write. How about if a "cheatcode" was offered to download and install the necessary drivers (using Captive) right after network detection? And then allowed you to restore configuration files or a home dir from the NTFS volume?
</edit>

Although it would be nice to have some applications included that are really difficult for us "perpetual newbies" to install from source on a distro like Red Hat or Mandrake -- I'm thinking the Rosegarden sequencer/score editor (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/) for one; and MPlayer (http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design6/news.html), for another. (Rosegarden is on the ISO-Top (http://iso-top.info/) remaster, even though it's not in the K menu.)

I agree with wooac that a Knoppix distro that made it extremely easy (even easier than Morphix) to remaster would be very cool, but I don't expect that Mr. Knopper will produce that one. Someone else might!

Abehome
04-10-2004, 02:07 AM
I don't agree to discount any of KDE apps and especially Konqi & KOffice. There are a lot of other un-necessary apps that can be removed. I am NOT against GNOME but there are quite a few GNOME apps that can be removed. Is it necessary to keep multiple un-popular WM?

reub2000
04-10-2004, 11:58 AM
Remove all windows managers excpets KDE, and all languages except English, and a few western european languages. If someone from another language needs knoppix in their language, they can get a remaster with their language.

zenok
04-10-2004, 12:25 PM
The problem with 60 mb to much is a big problem :( 60 MB to much in normal way (760mb iso) or ~ 20 MB to much??? (cloop calculated)

More and more applications leaving the big Knoppix - I know this because I created Kix but after Knoppix 3.3 remastering to such a little size without removing big things isn't possible anymore!

We see from time to time applications grow and Knoppix is getting more and more to a base for other remasters that have special targets...

Seeker
04-10-2004, 03:59 PM
Any chance of throwing NTPassword back in there?

Aside from that, I say it probably doesn't need both 2.4 AND 2.6... 2.6 is fine.

Like everyone else has been saying, pick one or two of each of the most popular programs (most dependable and the fastest, most streamlined) for any given app type and leave it at that.

Keep K3b, it's awesome... same with OO (that's something I hear every time someone else is trying to convert someone to Linux... "Open Office is awesome, and free..").

Also, please keep all the Linux Newbie help type stuff. God only knows how often I've used that crap.

I must say, that 'switch to DVD format' idea was horrible. That's even less appealing that having to wait 4+ hours (if you're lucky) to download your linux, like some other retarded distros. I really don't understand the mindset of people who came up with that...

"Well hey, how about we DON'T give them any kind of dependable medium? And let's just HOPE they're not the kinda person who likes to experiment with their machine... else they might end up spending something like 25 hours a week downloading our linux, ahyuck!"

sligh
04-10-2004, 08:17 PM
One word processor is plenty . Mozilla offers a good replacement to IE . Multiple language support is important .. Ease of operation ! ..Only this year I have seen new systems with linux in a brick and mortar store . Computer shows, I see Knoppix on systems for the show hours .
DVD is up and coming . If Knoppix is distributed on a DVD It will simply be ahead of it’s time . there will be plenty of CD’s floating around to be copied .When all computers have DVD Knoppix will have a larger market share .
From popular parts supply site -BenQ 16X DVD-ROM, 48X CD-ROM 31.00.- DVD it’s time is here !

blivius
04-11-2004, 03:52 AM
I agree completely with probono from a few posts back. Especially his point about OOo. I think it is a great app but in many cases it's much too slow to run off of a Knoppix CD. When Knoppix is running on the average low end PC with limited memory and processing power OOo tends to make Linux look bad.

In related news. We all know that Knoppix is Debian based. So maybe an idea might be to approach the maintainers of certain, shall we say, bloated applications and request that they offer a skinney version of their app for inclusion on Knoppix. I think that Knoppix has hit critical mass to the point where app maintainers do condider it an honnor to be included in a Knoppix release and thus would be willing to create a space saving Knoppix specific version of their app.

Just my 2 centavos :)

TyphoonMentat
04-11-2004, 07:41 AM
Perhaps for a few core things you could build the Debian package with --disable-nls: for instance, Perl probably doesn't need that much NLS support (it has Unicode stuff built in), so why have it?

Superstoned
04-11-2004, 06:29 PM
goin' to be a difficult choice ;-)

when reading the comments, alot ppl favor removing Koffice and Mozilla, and only having the 2.6.x kernel. guess thats ok, although I prefer Koffice for its speed - but you can always install it after the hdinstall.

and about the games - DONT remove frozen-bubble, its awesome! the others might be removed, I guess...

Rink
04-11-2004, 08:58 PM
Yes, it has disturbed me about the number of people keen to remove Koffice in favour of OO.

I find the Koffice modules faster and more versatile than their OO equivelants.

Not sure where anyone else stands on this

Crusader
04-11-2004, 10:06 PM
Just a thought, but I would like to keep Koffice... I set my little brother up with my old laptop (800mhz PIII with broken hard drive) so he can do his work. OpenOffice takes 10 minutes to load, KWord about 30 seconds. Also, Gnumetric seems to be the only spreadsheet program that will actually make graphs and save them to proper formats (to be printed on my parent's Windows XP machine).
I seem to recall someone saying that both the German and English Knoppix versions have German and English OpenOffices. Why not take the English version of OpenOffice out of the German Knoppix CD and the German version out of the English CD?
Also: cut BB (in the 'Toys' menu), and TextXaoS (in "Graphics"). They're cool, but... If you absolutely have to have a Linux demo, there's always "Yellow Rose of Texas" by Fit & Bandwagon, Assembly 2003, and it's only 4 kilobytes, and uses SDL. Search Pouet.net. That would shave a few mb...

farvardin
04-11-2004, 10:21 PM
I find the Koffice modules faster and more versatile than their OO equivelants

probably for a small note...
Otherwise Ooo is more faster and stable than Koffice, especially if you don't run any kde application at all at the same time (Ooo + fluxbox for ex.)
On a slow computer, I'd be curious to compare the loading time of Kde + koffice on the one hand, and FluxBox + OpenOffice on the other hand...

And keep in mind if you want to use knoppix also as a "rescue" disk, it's important the office suite on it can handle the .doc files well. So far only Ooo can do this.
Kde is nice and easier to configure, but its applications tend to crash more :(
I used it more before, but for now I feel I need something less bloated (even by using Ooo ;) )

it seems it's a bit a pity to remove koffice, but it'd be much worse to remove OpenOffice. If possible, removing TeX / LaTeX things in prority would be less damaging for Knoppix.

farvardin
04-11-2004, 10:45 PM
I set my little brother up with my old laptop (800mhz PIII with broken hard drive) so he can do his work. OpenOffice takes 10 minutes to load, KWord about 30 seconds

the hard drive must be much broken because on my 350mhz AMD OpenOffice takes 45 s to load, while KWord takes 9 seconds.
But I'm using WindowMaker that takes 20 seconds to load, while KDE takes 45 s....

and also, once OpenOffice is loaded, if you close it it will take only 5 seconds to load again...

jaconitroso
04-12-2004, 01:39 AM
:shock: I think that the CD format should be maintained.
If like other have mentioned I would remove the Koffice modules, Use a smaller Mozilla like Firefox and remove the less utilized programs from the CD format...Ahh Yes like mentioned before KStars is a must...Maybe this will help, I guess it would be to look a the biggest programs consuming space and if there use by user would be mininum or none these would be candidates to be excluded but that the user could install thru the use of APT-GET...

This is my humble opinion, I don't know if it is possible but the CD format still should be a Kept...

Thanks again for helping such a great Distro or Debian Based Linux System. May God Bless you both Fabianx and Klaus

A. Jorge Garcia
04-12-2004, 01:55 AM
If Tex is removed, I'll have to switch over to Quantian. Quantian is cool with a lot of numerical analysis and scientific computing apps and its built on top of clusterKNOPPIX. Just pop a Quantian CD in multiple PCs and presto, you have a Linux SuperCluster based on openMOSIX plus diagnostic utilities!

One thing Quantian doesn't seem to have, however, is a version of jdk for making java apps and applets. Neither does it have a version of jre for running applets in Konqueror.... These are in KNOPPIX and instrumental to my students.

I guess I'm a bit confused. I thought that Blackdown made a GNU version of jre and GCC made a GNU version of jdk. I guess not, as Quantian has GCC....

BTW, I've been using Linux for nearly 10 years now and KNOPPIX for the last 2 years to expose many students to the joys of no WIMPdoze environments!

Regards,
AJG

patik
04-12-2004, 05:40 AM
One of the key features of Knoppix is that everything is on the CD. For this reason I don't think including a minimal installation and making the user download/install what they want is a good idea. It's a great idea for a "make-your-own" version, but I'd like to have a disc to pop in where everyhting is just there already.

My vote is to reduce all of the redundancy except add Firefox because IMO it's a lot better than Konqueror. KDE does well enough for other things (office, IM, etc).

Also, while I have a DVD burner, I don't think it's time to move away from CDs yet. I've got a pile of free-after-rebate CDRs that I can burn for every new version of Knoppix and toss in the trash the second their obsolete, but I can't say the same for DVDRs. Plus if it's gonna use a DVDR, it should use almost the whole thing, not just a gig or two.

silvestrij
04-12-2004, 05:53 AM
Computer shows, I see Knoppix on systems for the show hours .
DVD is up and coming . If Knoppix is distributed on a DVD It will simply be ahead of it’s time . there will be plenty of CD’s floating around to be copied .When all computers have DVD Knoppix will have a larger market share .
From popular parts supply site -BenQ 16X DVD-ROM, 48X CD-ROM 31.00.- DVD it’s time is here !
I know a lot of people have more disposable income, and have DVD drives in their own computers, and they've come down in price, but please understand that your machines are *not* the majority. I help manage a network of ~700 computers, and in that network, and I don't think there are 5 computers in that mix with DVD drives. We've deliberately ordered them without DVD drives - we have absolutely no use for them. There is absolutely no need for DVD drives in our environment - our computers are for office-style work, teaching, related software dev., and general Internet usage. DVD drives encourage playing - namely of movies - and DVD-ROM has shown no convincing uses (Knoppix might be the only one I could see) - software companies realize how small the installed base is, and would never release their software on a medium that only a fraction of their target audience could use. The possible exception to this rule is games, as gamers are expected to have leading technology in their computers. Thinking of my network - I can use the current version of Knoppix in every single computer there, and it works quite well. Moving the development to a DVD format, and letting the CD-ROM format fester would be *very bad* for the spread of Knoppix, and would not help a push for the use of Linux.

P.S. Do I know people with DVD-ROM drives? Sure - I was one of the first people to buy one - for my PII/266, and still have it (but the rest of the computer couldn't possibly support such a version of Knoppix). The ThinkPad I'm composing this one also has a DVD-ROM drive, but probably is too weak to support so much extracting & swapping. My girlfriend's computer is probably the most capable personal computer I know of with a DVD-ROM drive, and before I got her set up with a Knoppix load, I did use the very cool (and very small) Geexbox distro to play DVDs on it. However, I do see these as exceptions to the rule - there are still loads of computers without DVD drives - in fact, when I configured a new Dell for my mother, I got it without DVD or CD-RW (I felt it was unnecessary, and would lead to more software/driver corruption under Windows - this is my mother we're talking about...we'll wait a bit on Linux for her =P).

[/rant]

Hellmark
04-12-2004, 07:51 AM
Ok, No on the DVD idea. I run Knoppix on alot of older systems that don't have DVD drives.

I'd say drop Open Office for the same reason, cause it takes up alot of space, hogs abunch of resources when running, and takes forever to load (it runs like crap from a live cd, or any older machine that doesnt surpass the minimum requirements). Personally I removed it (well, most of it, I can't seem to get it out of the Kmenu), and use Abiword for my big fancy word work, and use Kedit for my text files (and what little spreadsheet, etc is done with Koffice).

Also, scrap Seamonkey for Firefox. I did that, and most people are.

Can't remove Konqueror, because its the file manager for KDE (plus my guestimates are that its a pain to remove, because its integrated so much into KDE).

I'd also suggest removing some of the software that requires special hardware, like the TV tuner or Radio tuner. A majority of all computers dont have either of those.

Superstoned
04-12-2004, 10:23 AM
alot ppl want to remove Koffice, for example because it crashes, or doesnt load word files. well, they haven't seen KDE 3.2.x!!! Koffice is now stable, and DOES read ms Word files. no problem. and even integrated into konqueror, which is now almost as good a webbrowser as mozilla/firefox, while even faster, and way better integrated.

I'd drop OO and firefox, cuz its only useless duplication of applications. the native KDE apps offer almost the same features at less space (koffice is *waaay* smaller than OO, Konqi can't even be removed), with more integration and better speed.

name me one thing Koffice can't do that you reguarly use in OO... I'm very sure there isn't much. Of course OO has more features than Koffice, but not much features we use daily, I'm sure. same to Mozilla (firefox even has LESS features than Konqueror, you have to download and install a few plugins to make it work nice)

Craig2
04-12-2004, 12:14 PM
I'd vote in favor of removal of Kword as well. OpenOffice, while being larger than Kword, simply handles more file types than Kword. Also, I've had more problems with Kword crashing while trying to save new work, than OpenOffice, and more problems with Kword trying to print to pdf than OpenOffice. OpenOffice is simply more stable than Kword right now. While Kword will be great as it gets more stable, it isn't really stable yet. And I'll probably prefer it over OpenOffice as it does become more stable, and as it gets better at supporting more file formats. In the meantime, Knoppix must solve a space problem, and one of the two should go. Also, Knoppix is helping to bring Windows users to Linux, and OpenOffice runs on both Windows and Linux, so it can help by getting people onto Windows/OpenOffice, and then Linux/OpenOffice while keeping at least the office suite familiar.

I was going to vote for removal of Mozilla also, like others have done, until I realized that it would also mean the removal of Mozilla's Composer. This would be a bad idea. I, and others, find Composer useful, as one of the few wysiwyg type of web page builders out there. This is also something missing for would-be converts to Linux from Windows. Knoppix doesn't have Quanta Plus which is part of KDE, so the removal of Mozilla would cause two or three different major functionalities to be removed, Mozilla browser, Mozilla composer, and Mozilla mail. While I use and very much like Kmail, Kmail doesn't appear to have support for IMAP. Mozilla Mail does. So as much as I'd like to remove Mozilla due to its very large size, it would be a mistake to remove it, considering the audience of Knoppix users.

I've seen quite a few suggestions of getting rid of the 2.4 series kernel as well. I don't know how many Knoppix live-cd users are using the live-cd to run a database server, but I'd guess it isn't many. Simply because the 2.6 kernel is next to succeed 2.4 series, does not make it the best choice for everyone. I'd guess that the 2.6 kernel, currently, is a worse choice, not better choice, for most every user of Knoppix. One should read <a href=http://www.2cpu.com/articles/98_1.html>this article</a>
http://www.2cpu.com/articles/98_1.html
before making a choice for oneself. And Linus and others have made similar remarks, and warnings, one which kernel would be faster, depending on what you are using it for. So to simply dismiss the 2.4 kernel, and suggest that it be removed, without carefully examining why, and considering knoppix's intended uses, is a mistake.

One last idea. Others have suggested dropping the cd version, and maintaining only a dvd version. And others have pointed out the mistake this would be. But I think a better idea would be to take programs like kword, and other duplicative applications, and putting them on a SECOND supplemental live CD, would be a good idea. I'd guess that a large number of Knoppix users have a cd-rom drive that came with their computer, and a cd-writer that they burn the cds with. Due to space constraints, some apps have to come out of the base cd. Put the removed apps in a second cd, and enable the second cd to run from the second cd drive, which should be the cd writer. This will enable users to be able to continue using their cd burner to burn newer knoppix disks or music/data cds by removing the supplemental cd temporarily without affecting the running of knoppix, will enable 2 more Gigabytes of applications to be included for those with the two drives, and yet will still enable knoppix to be used in single cd equipped computers as a rescue disk or to write letters/whatever with OpenOffice and use other apps as well. And the second cd will enable Quanta Plus, Firefox (or whatever the current name is), kword, and other apps to still be available.

One cd is good, a second supplemental cd that runs from the second cd burner drive (or can be run from a salvaged cd drive from an older computer which is very common), and that offers an additional 2 gig of applications to be accesible is better. The second cd can be removed to burn cds, and the work that goes into enabling a second cd to run from a second drive may also provide the guidance to others to enable a dvd to run from a (second) dvd drive, enabling many more gigs of applications to be available. And at the same time, because the base cd runs from the cd drive, it will enable the supplemental dvd to be removed for dvd burning, if the dvd drive is a dvd burner.

Just my 2 cents.

nvgringo
04-12-2004, 02:45 PM
I think some may have misinterpreted my earlier post. I do not want to do away with the cd knoppix. Undeniably it needs to be there. I just want an option to download an official cd version or an official dvd version. You can fit a lot of compressed software on a dvd. And it would be nice to have that option. Even if it were available for free download I think that people would be willing to pay for a kitchen sink version uberknoppix dvd rather than spend hours downloading it to burn. It would be ok for Mr. Knopper to make money for his efforts wouldn’t it?
As far as what to remove to fit the cd, I think remove anything that can be reinstalled as an option with Fabian’s add software script or Probono’s Klik page. That way you could just download the removed software. Have the cake and eat it too

gcoker
04-12-2004, 03:34 PM
The trouble with choosing what to put in is that Knoppix is that it is so useful for so many things. I wish other software had those kinds of problems!! I use the Knoppix live CD to introduce Linux to non-users. It needs a set of utilities to that purpose. It must be a CD to be useful on most computers. And games. (I like to play freecell when I am burning with the live CD.) I use the live CD on my work computer that I must not modify. I use a HD install for my Linux distro. I need different group of applications for each task. Of course, there is a great deal of overlap. I am a developer so I like lots of development software. I do not usually use them on a live CD. is great for all kinds of stuff. I do not have DVD readers yet on any of my computers, my work computer can not be modified. But a DVD burning application would be useful for the future. How about an extra CD for HD installs with the software version of the kitchen sink? I do not have any problems with a DVD version, as long as I can get it on (more than one?) CD. I know that the distro was designed to be a live CD (cheers!) but many of the more serious users (or those wishing to be serious users!) have used it a really good way to install Debian. I have a T1 at work, but only dialup at home, so an iso is a really handy to build a system. The Knoppix distro is truely an impressive work! Thanks!!!

rcook
04-12-2004, 04:28 PM
Just weighing in. I would not miss KWord. The games are a strong easy demo and good for evangelism, and usually not to big in footprint.

I would avoid a DVD. It is too big and will encourage bloat.

A link to install KWord or other packages would ease their omission and they could be on a second CD for those who don't have fast internet.

Two masters, one with 2.6 and one with 2.4 would ease the problems. Speaking English with some German, I don't see any language problem on language support, but don't feel I should express an opinion on something the may be quite important to someone else. Here again, this might be somefiles that can be relegated to a second CD.

Another thing would be to use pareto's 80/20 rules in making decisions. The old addage about you can't be everything to everyone. There are already many remasters for special interests.

agent_smith
04-12-2004, 04:54 PM
Ok ppl!

I think this would pretty much soothe the up-and-coming flame KOFFICE vs OpenOffice... Why not kill them both, and instead do the following:

1. Include a universal /sources-list (*.debian.org) instead of regional mirrors, or - why not include ALL local source mirrors? How big would that make the /sources-list file? A megabyte? I think less... Inside this file, you could include a line or two advising newbies how to #comment out the mirrors that are far, and leave in those near them.

2. Include a whole section with links to installing applications (perhaps inside the KNOPPIX menu?) OFFICE TOOLS>KOffice, OOffice, etc.

This way, we can have it slim and fast (preserving the games for demo), and we can leave it to the user to decide on what to order in after a hdinstall. Not only we will save space, but we will also demonstrate this other strong feature - tools and apps on demand. Say, you need office suite? Go ahead, click on the link and in a sec you will have whatever selected INSTALLED on your PC with no fuss or charge... How is that for a change, huh? No vendors, no license agreements... click and use.

What do you say fellas? How feasible is this?

Smith

hkfczrqj
04-12-2004, 05:36 PM
This way, we can have it slim and fast (preserving the games for demo), and we can leave it to the user to decide on what to order in after a hdinstall.

But you are missing the point. Knoppix is, above all, a LIVE CD. Not a 1cd distro. It's nice that it can be hd installed, but many people (including me) can't/won't/are-afraid-of hdinstall, and a live cd with an office suite might be the right tool they need, and knoppix does the job (I'm not talking about evangelism here, although knoppix does a great job here). Why change that?

It's obvious that any software that is removed from knoppix will upset some people... but I'm confident that Klaus will make a wise decision.

A. Jorge Garcia
04-12-2004, 05:53 PM
I like agent_smith's idea. No, we can't remove all these apps, but making apt-get install accessible to the noob is an interesting idea!

Regards,
AJG

Durand Hicks
04-12-2004, 06:55 PM
How? and where would the installed programs go if it can't fit into the ramdisk? I'm not exactly sure if this is a good decision when running a live cd. Certainly it's an excellent idea for hd-installs as that would give you a choice of packages to your preferences. For live cd's, though, it's better to have it already installed but reduce the duplication, etc, install KDE-core but not the entire desktop environment, lose koffice, some editors, I vote to keep kwrite, but all others should go, except for midnight commander (gotta have that). One desktop environment with one additional lightweight window manager should suffice. Some computers have problems with 2.6 so sticking with that one isn't exactly the best option, if anything, I would prefer a single patched 2.4.25 kernel with supermount, cpufreq, sata, and perhaps both apm & acpi support compiled in. This would give the live cd more robust (& reliable?) support for mobile computers as well as desktops using sata drives. That said, how about a 2 cd/iso option, one with the patched 2.4.25 kernel from above and the other with 2.6.5 kernel, both with the same base packages? All in all, this is Klaus' pet project, and I thank him for coming out with a live cd that enabled me to jump into linux with both feet.

tarpon
04-12-2004, 07:35 PM
My vote is the two most popular apps have to stay. Mozilla suite and OOo. These are really useful and new users don't care much about the extra time to load. They realize it's a cd drive running the system and it is slower.

Koffice can go. Everything that is a dupe in OOo should go. Also the text processing tools, who actually uses these much anymore?

Window managers are nice to have but why so many? A user who knows what a windows manager is surely knows how to do a hd install and get what they want. I would leave one lightweight wm for weak hardware.

Including nvida and ATI drivers and alsa is necessary. Some games are a real plus when trying to get new users interested.

Developers are the most likely to do a hd install and be able to download what they need anyway, so why include all the developer tools.

If the target is slanted to new users I believe it will be best for Knoppix, best for Linux and OOS people in general. After all it is new users we want not 16 text editors to choose from.

Maybe the previous version 3.3 could be kept around and updated, to serve as a version when the latest kernel isn't needed? After all a new user isn't going to know what is meant by kernel, much less 2.6.

Knoppix as a core system, that's my vote. Download the rest.

Just my 2 cents.

tb

jdong
04-12-2004, 07:37 PM
I like agent_smith's idea. No, we can't remove all these apps, but making apt-get install accessible to the noob is an interesting idea!

Regards,
AJG

Allowing apt-get on a Live-cd environment will be difficult... as the filesystem is mounted under a read-only CLOOP file system. The easiest way would probably be to install all software under an /opt tree (either located in RAM or on some other media).


I would agree to take off KOffice and mozilla-browser/mozilla-mail. Konq's a very decent browser (especially the KDE 3.2 version!), and I see no advantages of Mozilla over Konq. Konq renders significantly faster than Mozilla, and I've never seen Konq have any trouble with rendering...


Also, maybe remove some of the development tools/packages??

patik
04-12-2004, 08:29 PM
I think this would pretty much soothe the up-and-coming flame KOFFICE vs OpenOffice... Why not kill them both, and instead do the following:
I really, really, REALLY don't like the idea of Knoppix requiring extra downloads or installations. It's a live CD used for demoing or just keeping a copy of Linux handy for those of us who don't normally use it.

If you want a minimal or custom-tailored Linux install, go get Debian or Mandrake and install it on your hard drive. Knoppix should have everything right on the CD. Users running it right from the CD should not have to use the hard drive or download packages to get anything working.

I think asking users to comment out mirrors in a config file is totally out of the question. That would confuse the hell out of most people who don't use Linux already. That's very unfriendly, and like I said, Knoppix shouldn't require any configuration or installation.

A. Jorge Garcia
04-12-2004, 08:42 PM
Sorry, I think you misunderstand me. Don't we already have probono's klik project for installing apps while running off a liveCD? I thought agent_smith was talking about making apt-get install more accessible to the noob with an hdinstall!

BTW, the KNOPPIX CD is for the noob and the advanced user and the developer alike. This CD has a huge audience! To drop development tools I think is a huge mistake. Isn't one of the benefits of using Linux to have a programmer friendly environment???

Whatever you do, keep gcc and blackdown, jdk and jre as well as kwrite, kate, konqueror and konsole!!! My students depend on these every day!

Regards,
AJG

j.drake
04-12-2004, 08:57 PM
Some of you want newbies to download apps??? Get real! It took me 2 months to figure out how to get my printer and winmodem running when I first started. (some of you even helped me).

The linux jocks are going to install to HDs - it's the MS Win folks who are going to be nervously poking around - completely inadequate to the task of doing any kind of customization at all.. They're too busy trying to figure out what "mount" means to be doing any of that nonsense.

The live version (DVD or CD) needs to be as familiar as possible to Windows newbs. That means Open Office instead of KWrite. Let's face it, if you even know what KWrite is, you know how to get it on your own - not the same for Open Office. Windows folks need to know that what they have in MS Office is readily available in Linux, and they'll be expecting spreadsheets and presentations at a minimum. Also, most curious Windows people are going to be dealing with NTFS drives. That means that the 2.6 kernel is a must. It may not be perfect or stable, or what have you, but it's as close as we have to meaningful NTFS capabilitites. If you only have room for 1 kernel, it has to be 2.6

Almost any Windows user these days is going to have a DVD drive - Linux may be tolerant of outdated and obsolete computers, but Windows isn't. Now, that having been said, the best anti-DVD argument I've seen is for laptops, which cannot be upgraded with cheap DVD or DVD +/-R/RW drives. I hadn't anticipated this point, and it is a very good one. But, I never suggested that anyone should stop making the CD available. As a user, the best thing for me would be to have both CDs and DVDs at my disposal. But I don't think it's fair to insist upon that, since I'm not the one doing the work to make the disks or pay for them. All I suggested was that the newer technology and larger programs should switch to DVD. Knoppix 3.3 on CD is very capable and stable, and has KOffice and the older apps, and will run on older and more obsolete machines. It's a great solution for people who are worried about bloat. Just leave it up on the mirrors, and put subsequent versions on DVD. That way, leading edge folks who can benefit from the new stuff and Windows newbies will have what they want, and the minimalists can have what they want too. And if they're really into Linux, they know what to do to update or remaster. It's the folks who don't know how to do that who need it done for them.

Yes, if Klaus and Fabian are willing to produce both CD and DVD versions, great - everyone is happy. But if not, let's put the newer versions on DVD. Also, just so the CD version doesn't get left too far behind, perhaps every fifth version release or so could be a CD update. In some ways, Klaus has really spoiled us with the frequency of Knoppix updates - MS makes us wait 2-3 years or so for a new version, and then we have to pay for it.

Oh, and on the browser thing, I love Firefox and Thunderbird too, but (Firefox + Thunderbird = Mozilla), more or less. I prefer them separated, but hey, my bet is that there's some efficiency in having them combined into Mozilla. Konqueror does not have the same functionality, so you can't dump Mozilla for Konqueror. OTOH, Konqueror is the file manager too, so you can't get rid of it either, to my knowledge.

magic
04-12-2004, 10:01 PM
I demonstrated Knoppix 3.3 to my Windows PC User Group on Saturday. They were awed by what they saw. Many of these people are senior citizens with little computer knowledge and experience beyond Windows. They were familiar with Open Office and Mozilla from seeing and using Windows versions. They were impressed by the ability to use and experiment with Linux on the Knoppix CD without the need to change anything on their present computers. Over half of the people that attended took home a copy of the Knoppix CD (that's 40 copies) so they could experiment and learn more.

My suggestion is to provide Open office and Mozilla on Knoppix 3.4 but to remove K-Office and most of the other desktop programs (keep KDE and Fluxbox). Keep at least some of the games. Kernal 2.6 is an important step forward and should be provided.

A. Jorge Garcia
04-12-2004, 10:30 PM
As for games, the only really decent ones are bzflag and freecraft for LAN parties as well as tuxracer and frozenbubble for single player.

Don't forget xboard and gnuchess for play against the PC and FICS!

BTW, if you're including nvidia drivers, bzflag and tuxracer are good to test your acceleration.

Regards,
AJG

Hellmark
04-12-2004, 10:34 PM
Removing the window managers really wont remove much space. Also, dont more people use ice than flux?

As far as tux racer, I've never had that run decently on my systems. And I run new stuff as well as old.

sklynn
04-13-2004, 01:45 AM
I vote for the DVD. Leave 3.3 on the CD and put all new versions on DVD....

Neo-Rio
04-13-2004, 02:26 AM
I did a Knoppix HD install for a friend and here's what he uses the most:

OpenOffice
Internet
Kmail
Gaim
(and maybe the freecell and solitaire)

Anything more than that is just bloat to a beginner user. In fact my friend got confused when he saw both Konqueror and Mozilla, both as browsers on KDE. There's some uneccessary doubling up of web browsers, so one of them has got to go.

Most beginners to computers see computers more as a glorified communications device and typewriter. The beauty with Linux is that there are a whole pile of tools and other rescue goodies from the command line as well.

Keep the CD format. One poster commented that a lot of PCs don't have DVD drives, and I know this to be true. There's no point Knoppix being a rescue distro if it won't work on older drives.

Having said that, there are a lot fo things that can be cut, like duplicate office apps. (abiword, gnumetric etc.), all the other shells nobody ever uses. Some of the old Xwindow apps. Some dev tools. Qt parted can go I think... fdisk and cfdisk do the job OK.. and anyone who can't use those tools shouldn't be partitioning their HD anyway.

I think if anyone needs a whole pile of extra tools for a HD installation, there should be a second CD for HD installing. That would bring Knoppix into the realm of being a distro-capable live CD... but I don't see this as a bad thing because the Knoppix makes for a very competant Linux system base.

Also, Stick with the 2.6 kernel. While the 2.4 kernel is good and all, it is old, and some newer motherboards simply can't handle it.

Things to add: a firewall script and if possible, 3D drivers for ATI & Nvidia. Installing both of those is a pain, and if they were in there it would ease the burden.

TerryD
04-13-2004, 06:08 AM
As a nubee to Linux, but a programmer with 30 years exp. on everything from PDP-8 to OS/390, I might suggest that what to leave out on a distro is not so important as what to include. Who is the target audience? Is it a rescue disk? An introduction to Linux for newbies? It can't be all things to all people. For myself, Knoppix was an introduction to Linux, it being the first distro I tried (and I've tried them all) that ran "out of the box". Obviously, a big seller to everybody.

In a matter of a couple of days spare time playing, I had created an HD based version, an HD installed version, and had cut a new Knoppix CD from the install (with NO prior Linux experience) with a few application changes. It would seem that most Linux users could readily do the same.

I would think that "one of each" is enough on applications, desktops, etc. IMHO, the plethora of competing desktops, browsers, etc. is the single most important factor in the rejection of Linux by the average desktop user. I have my choice of five, all buggy? This is a good thing? It's been out HOW LONG and it's at release 0.9?! I know all the pros and cons, but I also know my grandma. You don't want to give her a choice. Off my soapbox.

This is a great job that you have done, really commendable. Good luck on whatever you decide.

patik
04-13-2004, 06:30 AM
I would think that "one of each" is enough on applications, desktops, etc. IMHO, the plethora of competing desktops, browsers, etc. is the single most important factor in the rejection of Linux by the average desktop user. I have my choice of five, all buggy? This is a good thing? It's been out HOW LONG and it's at release 0.9?! I know all the pros and cons, but I also know my grandma. You don't want to give her a choice. Off my soapbox.
I agree completely. I recently read an "intro to Linux for Windows users" article and the thing I liked about it was that it didn't give any choices, it made the choices for you. You're going to use Open Office for office stuff, you're going to use Mozilla for browsing, you're going to use K3B for burning, etc. No choices, no BS. Once people get into Linux they will discover these alternatives on their own, in the same way that not all Windows users still use MS apps exclusively. Remove the choice and you remove confusion.

Hunkah
04-13-2004, 08:32 AM
Holy Cow! This got into the long winded conversations!
I am not reading form this thread anymore, I don't have the extra 45 minutes a day to spend keeping up on it.

I am sure that you are all wondering why I am saying this... Well I will tell you. Everyone is saying the same thing! I got bored with it, and I don't think that anyone's input will make anymore of a difference.

It would have been better to keep it short and sweet. For example

Drop- Koffice, Mozilla, and the kitchen ksink.
Keep- OOo, Games
Add-- FireFox, Thunderbird.

Sigmatador
04-13-2004, 11:32 AM
drop all WMs, just keep KDE, GNOME, FLUXBOX.
drop KOFFICE keep OPENOFFICE

ChivalricRonin
04-13-2004, 02:23 PM
Perhaps we should simply have a number of versions? For instance, a CD with 2.4, a CD with 2.6, and a DVD image? I also like the idea of a limited APT setup, utilizing the RAM. Then again, a comp with more RAM would be able to get more apps than one with less.

As far as features go, ATI/Nvidia drivers, ALSA, and support for Broadcom/Atheros/Prism wireless cards (mini PCI too) I would very much like to see as I frequently use Knoppix on my Laptop. Many games are good for conversion as well. Redundant software and more than one or two text editors should be done away with as well. I also support adding FireFox and Thunderbird, as opposed to mozilla. Also, for backup purposes how about a good gui-based CD/DVD burning? Being able to read off a NTFS disk for instance, and recover data from it and burn to CD or DVD under knoppix would be great. I think K3b has worked pretty well thus far, so how about a newer version if one exists? As of right now I can't get data off my mounted NTFS disk with the current K3b.

I'm really looking forward to new versions of Knoppix!

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Come on now, Klaus! We're tired of waiting for Knoppix 3.4 and it shouldn't be so complex to drop KOffice or whatever. You're the boss and you can read the posts in here, so just go ahead and delete whatever and get the damn release out NOW!
I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of this show.
Anyway, I don't understand the lack of space. Why are there multiple shells, browsers, office suites, a tee timer (small but totally useless), and now several kernels? Why not just drop kernel 2.4, some shells, KOffice, and some of the small (IMHO useless) programs?
Do whatever you like Klaus, just do it real soon!

nvgringo
04-13-2004, 03:47 PM
Klaus,
Thank you for spending you time so that all of us can download this valuable product for free. I hope that our input has been helpful. Please take your time. Whatever time you need. Some people might get too excited and make demands because they are anxious. Please take this as a complement, not a sign of lack of appreciation.

Hasse
04-13-2004, 03:51 PM
Remove these 3.3 packages in the upcomming 3.4:

Remove KDE's support for different languages. Keeping only english and german. Remove czech, danosh, spanish, french, italian, japanese, dutch, polish, russian and trurkish. It will save over 100 Mb (uncompressed).

Remove gcc-2.95 and cpp-2.95. Nerds will still do their own remastering or hd-install.

Remove xpdf, since acroread is better.

Sitll not enough? Start looking at firefox in place of Mozilla, and maybe remove KOffice.

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 03:52 PM
I do appreciate Klaus Knoppers work but the Knoppix 3.4 release date has been pushed back for more than a month now. I expected to come home from my easter holiday to find Knoppix 3.4 released. All I got was a new pushed deadline.
Give us a date once and for all now!

A. Jorge Garcia
04-13-2004, 03:55 PM
Getting rid of hdinstall utilities is a mistake. One thing KNOPPIX is good at is as a Debian Intallation CD.

As to bloat, I thought we had this arguement long ago. Wasn't KNOPPIX going to be KDE specific and drop GNOME? There is a GNOPPIX project out there for that! I mean, don't just drop the GNOME desktop, but all its related apps and libs. Many liveCD distros keep tons of libs so you can run all those apps. Well, get rid of the apps so you can get rid of the libs and the bloat!

BTW, adding a KNOPPIX service for installing nvidia would be nice! How about a service for starting an ftp server or an apache server?

TIA,
AJG

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 04:09 PM
The following is my wish list because I also use them in Windows:

Gaim
Mozilla (and it's mail features)
OpenOffice
XMMS (not the same as Winamp but the GUI is virtually identical)

Gerome
04-13-2004, 04:25 PM
Hello there!

As far as I could see, most people here didnt bother to concider what Knoppix is actually for or might become..

Before I'd start to tink about what to remove this is the first step:

I understood: Knoppix is used as a Demo for people that have no experience with Linux AND for rescue-reasons.

It is NOT a real Distro although it is possible to copy it to HD.

Whats more: There are a few people that do really work HARD for something that everybody can enjoy for free.


Concidering this I come to these possible solutions:

The Live-CD needs to be compatible to as many Systems as possible (drivers etc)

As a Demo it needs to have a selection of serveral games. (dont tell what your favourites are, because it will be different with everybody), they dont need that much space anyway
The CD has to be used as easy as possible for the all-day-work (wordprocessing, internet, etc) [great job here up till today!!]
Important is also the speed. You cannot use programs that need minutes to start and work with, BUT the compatibility is far more important. As a newbie I wouldnt want a fast program that cannot display my MSWord files properly.
I'd get rid of programs that are the same kind (99 - 100 % the same!!) and are not able to be speedy and or compatible enough!
One program is enough to handle for a newbie.

As a rescue-disk it needs to have certain tools that can rescue Data on serveral media (CD, DVD, ZIP Disk, USB-Disk, external hds and everything important I might have forgotten) and modification tools, network tools and so on. I think I dont need to tell you what I mean because you might know that much better than me!!

There are serveral programs which are really usefull on a HD - Install but are not really usable from CD as well as the other way around.
Now thats a tough one.
On a HD Install the pro's are easily able to install what they need or take a disto of their preference but what about the newbies?
My suggestion would be: a small selection while installing:

- install the CD
- install the CD WITH additional usefull tools from the internet (only with cheap / fast Internet connection)


As for the DVD: Remember me talking about compatibility? ;-)
But a DVD distro once in a while would be really fine by me. Remember also: it doubles or even triples the work to be done here!!
Maybe there are some willing people to take over the work for special releases? like an USB - version or a 250 MB release for small CDs and of course a DVD release? I cant do it. I'm somewhat a user but cannot remaster or understand fully what I do here ;-))


Whatever you do: it is good that you take your time! I hate a software release that should be on alpha stadium and is called 1.0...

Keep up the amazing work! Hope I gave you some ideas.

PS: If there are some things I got wrong you can tell me. It is possible because I am new to this world although I gained a bit experience. Don't flame, just write a pm or somthing...

rcook
04-13-2004, 04:32 PM
Back again. I view the DVD as the worst possible mistake. It provides to much space and opportunity for bloat. We will have multiple everything.

Presently there is 2GB of apps packed on a single CD. The DVD would permit 12-14GB of material. It would require a data base to keep track of and simply overwhelm most users. We can locate that quantity of material any day on the web, if we want to wade through and organize it.

There have been several who council one of each. To bury the multiplicity of apps which perform the same function.
Amen!

The multple applications for the same function are a confusion factor to the noob and the lazy. People with strong opinions that the provided single application isn't the one they want should be able to find and install the one they prefer.

I have installed serveral word processors in the past and really never gotten beyond Open Office. It does what I want and the purported advantages of abiword and the others are not pressing enough to encourage me to spend the time to get comfortable with them. If I get inspired to try or need a feature from a new word processor, apt-get and the debian resources can address my needs. I feel the same is true for other types of applications.

ersiko
04-13-2004, 04:41 PM
KDE 3.2.2 is coming, and we are still deciding which packages must stay and which should go.

KDE 3.2.2 will bring lots of bugfixes, but I suppose it will also bring some MB. So we will want it. And we will take out some more stuff from knoppix.

So please hurry up before KDE 3.3 come!! ;)

Well, here my 2cents
OUT: Koffice, Gnome & gnome stuff like "gnome console", gnumeric, and maybe 1 or 2 kde-18n-XX
IN: KDE 3.2.2, The Gimp 2, kernel 2.4 & kernel 2.6, OpenOffice 1.1.1 (latest great releases :))

Keep up the great work! Thanks Klaus! Thanks all people involved in Knoppix! You rule!!!

j.drake
04-13-2004, 05:18 PM
Do you realize that in just 4 days, there have been well over 12,000 reads of this thread????? People are obviously very passionate about this topic!!

What a testament to the loyalty to this product. I would like to echo the earlier post in pointing out that strongly voiced opinions should be taken as a serious compliment rather than as criticism. And the idea that you may have to limit scope speaks to the incredible versatility of this product. Clearly, it already is a lot of things to a lot of people, and the thought of removing someone's favorite app stirs some primal emotions not typically observed in your garden variety nerd.

Wow!

agent_smith
04-13-2004, 05:37 PM
Hello team!

I think some people misunderstood my point about apt-get. I wish to have this (and sources-list) included ONLY for the HD-INSTALL option. That out of the way, I think some things came out clear:

1. Knoppix is about KDE - Gnoppix is about GNOME, so we should stick to KDE, and lose everything there is to GNOME - environment, libs, packages, etc.

2. Lose all languages BUT us & de

3. Take your time - a quick 3.4 full of bugs is pretty much as bad as not having 3.4 at all... ;)

4. Remove duplicating instances of software - with newbies in mind, they should have one app for each task, whereas discovering new/alternative apps should be a process, not a confusing abundance. :)

5. Possible drivers for nVidia and ATI, next to ALSA will be an excellent addition to the 2.6.x kernel.

Regardless of the fact I already lost a 100 EUR bet whether Knoppix 3.4 will or will not be on time, I am pleased with this thread - once again Klaus, Fabian and team think more of US ALL (no matter how ungreatfull we are). Thank you!

Smith

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 05:52 PM
Dropping local language and keyboard support will be a major error. I'm 9x7 bilingual and know how to use my danish keyboard with a US layout so removing local features wouldn't kill me, but it will certainly deter newbies and normal users here in Denmark.
I've previously posted a request asking for a synchronous keyboard change in KDE and consoles. It still annoys me that I have to change the keyboard layout in consoles and KDE.
Elderly people typically don't understand english or read it real slow. Domestic languages are a big plus to Knoppix like the games.

silvestrij
04-13-2004, 05:54 PM
Almost any Windows user these days is going to have a DVD drive - Linux may be tolerant of outdated and obsolete computers, but Windows isn't. Now, that having been said, the best anti-DVD argument I've seen is for laptops, which cannot be upgraded with cheap DVD or DVD +/-R/RW drives. I hadn't anticipated this point, and it is a very good one. But, I never suggested that anyone should stop making the CD available. As a user, the best thing for me would be to have both CDs and DVDs at my disposal. But I don't think it's fair to insist upon that, since I'm not the one doing the work to make the disks or pay for them. All I suggested was that the newer technology and larger programs should switch to DVD. Knoppix 3.3 on CD is very capable and stable, and has KOffice and the older apps, and will run on older and more obsolete machines. It's a great solution for people who are worried about bloat. Just leave it up on the mirrors, and put subsequent versions on DVD. That way, leading edge folks who can benefit from the new stuff and Windows newbies will have what they want, and the minimalists can have what they want too. And if they're really into Linux, they know what to do to update or remaster. It's the folks who don't know how to do that who need it done for them.

You obviously didn't read my post, did you?
http://knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43528#43528

Well, I'm probably used to being ignored by a number of people, but I think I had a serious point or two to make - please, this ignorant view that *everyone* has DVD drives, or can get them needs to be stopped. This may be true of many newer computers that /home/ users have, but it is not true of a majority of computers out there. If it is a demo tool, one should be able to put the *latest* copy into someone's work machine, and watch the wonder of it in action. I've used in on a consulting job or two as a data recovery tool, and no DVD drive was to be found, nor did I need so much bloat. What did I really need? All my favorite command line means of accessing things, as well as OO.o to verify M$ Word files were present and intact; Konqueror, for convenient tree browsing; K3B for burning the data to a CD-R (it was simply awesome in one case that there was an independent burner - in the other case, I just put the files on my USB key from bash). We give out Knoppix discs to students for one class so that they can write, compile, and test simple C programs - and when we show demonstrate it here, we certainly don't have DVD drives, even on our brand new computers, for the reasons I elaborated on in my post. For Knoppix to be all that it is, and more, it must meet the lowest common denominator, namely CD-ROM, and spread the word about how good Linux is, letting people test the waters with it, on *any* computer that is available to them.

j.drake
04-13-2004, 05:58 PM
Oh, I read it, I just wasn't convinced by it. Didn't mean to insult you, though.

Also, as you pointed out - "We've deliberately ordered them without DVD drives " - they are so mainstream and ubiquitous that you have to take special pains to NOT have one. You made my point for me. Even Celeron computers are being sold with DVD players as standard equipment.

Although it may be true that you had no need for them at the time, the time will come when that won't be the case. I'm not trying to second-guess the wisdom of that decision, but clearly there may be consequences associated with it - among them that you may have to buy replacement drives for them or replace them when an important application like Knoppix goes to DVD.

History shows that software inevitably grows over time, and the distribution media along with it. It's going to happen - it's just an issue of when. . . . . All I'm saying is that the time is now (at least for the option).

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 09:30 PM
j.drake: I don't know what wonderland you live in since you have infinite access to DVD's but I sure would like to know.
I'm in Denmark now, we're reasonably technically advanced and I do indeed have a drive capable of reading DVD's in my laptop, but I have no DVD burner, you insensitive clod.
How am I supposed to burn a DVD image WITHOUT a burner :?

savage
04-13-2004, 09:32 PM
Most people don't have a DVD burner. Since Knoppix is mostly distributed over the internet, having DVD only is pointless and would kill knoppix. I would say only 1/3 to 1/2 of personal computers have a DVD drive, and less than 5% have a dvd burner. I am just making those numbers up though. Most work computers are a couple of years old as well and won't have a DVD burner.

sn0wflake
04-13-2004, 09:45 PM
I suspect some people in this forum prefer quantity vs. quality. Wrong attitude!
A compressed CD should be plenty. The rest is spam and fluff.

jdong
04-13-2004, 10:25 PM
It's not smart to dump all Gnome libs... that would include GTK, and too many useful apps depend on GTK -- hell even WINE & some builds of Mozilla depend on GTK....


If you're just talking about GNOME libs, hmm, they don't take up too much space.



Please don't make Knoppix a DVD-only distro, for all the reasons mentioned above!!

j.drake
04-13-2004, 10:29 PM
j.drake: I don't know what wonderland you live in since you have infinite access to DVD's but I sure would like to know.
I'm in Denmark now, we're reasonably technically advanced and I do indeed have a drive capable of reading DVD's in my laptop, but I have no DVD burner, you insensitive clod.
How am I supposed to burn a DVD image WITHOUT a burner :?

Obviously you can't. People keep misunderstanding me. Here's what I said:

1. Most Windows folks probably have a DVD drive. This is because the MS environment expects people to constantly upgrade. I'm not here to debate whether that's good, bad, fair, unfair, sensitive or smart - I just state it for what it is. I didn't say burner - I said drive. If you run linux on a 10-year old computer, I respect that, but the statement is not aimed at you, I'm talking about people who currently run MS exclusively and who may be curious about switching.

2. DVD drives are cheap. They are. Trust me. You'd be hard pressed to find more than $10 USD difference in cost between a DVD reader and a CD reader ( a year ago, a DVD reader cost me $30 USD at a retail store). Plus, I'll bet most linux tinkerers are resourceful enough to score a used one for less than $5.

3. Burned linux disks are cheap. Approx $6 USD with shipping. OK, blank DVDs cost more, so add maybe $3-5 USD at most - call it $10 USD total. So you want to burn your own -- OK, well when I first got into this I didn't have broadband, and I couldn't download CD ISO files -- did that make everyone else insensitive? No, I bought a previously burned disk and had it mailed to me. No big deal.

4. DVD burners now are as cheap as CD burners were when Knoppix first came out. I've seen them in dual formats for $80 USD at Best Buy. I still remember CD readers at $300 USD when they first came out. If it wasn't "unreasonable" or "insensitive" to give people the option of burning their own Knoppix CDs when Knoppix first came out and CD burners were more expensive, then why is it so controversial and "insensitive" now?? It's an option - not a requirement - buy a burner if you want - buy a disk if you don't.

5. Keep v.3.3 ISOs on the mirrors. Look, I'm not the one who made Knoppix 3.4 too big for a CD - that's not my fault - it is what it is. If you don't want to buy a DVD player or burner, but want to run Knoppix, fine. I don't care if you do. But if 3.4 won't fit on a CD, and if no one wants to sacrifice their favorite apps, then what do you want me to do about it? You're wanting to kill off apps that other people need or want because you personally don't favor them, all so you won't have to be inconvenienced by a switch in format (an inevitable one, BTW), yet you call ME insensitive??? Give me a break!

6. Many hardcore linux folks are doing HD installs, and know how to get upgrades easily. If you need Knoppix as a rescue disk, the rescued computer probably won't be offended if you use v. 3.3. Plus, I did point out the possibility of less frequent upgrades to the CDs.

Call me insensitive if you want, but I proposed a solution that doesn't sacrifice anybody's favorite or most needed applications, that gets leading edge users the power and versatility that they want, that provides existing users the ability to have everything they currently have, that maximizes appeal to new Windows users, and really doesn't cost all that much in the grand scheme of things. Even if you go with the most expensive approach and buy a brand new DVD burner, it's still cheaper than a WinXP upgrade disk or a full retail license of RedHat or SuSE, plus you get a burner that you can use for backups, making DVDs, or whatever else. you choose. And, if that poses a problem, you can still burn a CD if you want or order a DVD by mail.

pnti
04-13-2004, 10:51 PM
Hello team!

2. Lose all languages BUT us & de

Smith

No why ... please remove English and leave Polish ! Do you really think that there is only one language besides German?

robwelch100
04-13-2004, 11:18 PM
I haven't read all of the posts on this forum topic yet, but it seems to me that many people agree to dump kwrite and at least some of the games. I know many people run knoppix from cd but I think far more install to HD. Many of the applications can be installed from downloads or possibly a second cd. Linux IS everything to everyone of its users. We all have the apps that we like and would hate to see them go (that's why many distros are 3 cd's). But I think it is in the best interest of knoppix to pick the best program for a particular task and use it (as long it is restricted to cd only).

I know (myself included) that many use the knoppix cd on other computers to fix problems and I think a remaster slimmed down to utilities and tools with 2.6 and KDE 3.2.1 will be perfect for such a use.

Knoppix faces growing pains. In the world of linux distros people use the one that suits them best. Now that knoppix is so popular and apps are growing I think knoppix is at the crossroads. Can it continue to be a live cd and offer as much as previous versions? The answer is yes if the live cd is not a cd at all, but a dvd. I would like to see knoppix continue to pioneer the linux world. knoppix on dvd could be the impetus for many people to get that dvd burner. You know, the old "If you build it they will come" thing. 8x burners are below $100.

I also think that knoppix is much more than a demo version of linux. I'm sure you will always be able to get the older cd versions when knoppix finally goes to dvd for those computers that do not have a dvd drive. The advocates of the cd format fail to mention that not all older drives read cd-r's anyway and therefore their argument is weakened. I don't know of anyone that advocates a dvd version that says to deep six the cd version alltogether. Honestly, I still use a floppy now and then.

that's my 2 cents.
rob

resistance
04-13-2004, 11:34 PM
hi to all :lol:
I have a simpler suggestion, however more laborious, write a script OWN-CUSTOM-KNOPPIX in a way that each one can include your favorite application establishing its proper size, being it CD or DVD;
one SITE (DEBIAN by side)for acquisition the programs and a standard-image ISO for this end...

ps. i never used remaster way, but i think something like that

This topic is endless, i like Hussein but not Laden; he like AC/DC but not BlackSabath; she like BackStreetBoys but not Rick Martin; you like McDonalds but not potato fries................................... :roll:

Hasse
04-13-2004, 11:36 PM
Dropping local language and keyboard support will be a major error.Since I brought this subject up, I should reply to this.

Droping kde-i18n-* will drop the language support for menus and kde programs. You will still be able to set your locals (i.e. time, money, date) and keyboard. You will NOT have the start menu, the programs on it or menus in programs (File, Edit, About) translated to danish or japanese.

What I do miss are these few i18n lines in S00knoppix-autoconfig

sv)
LANGUAGE="sv"
COUNTRY="se"
LANG="sv_SE"
KEYTABLE="se-latin1"
XKEYBOARD="se"
KDEKEYBOARD="se"
CHARSET="iso8859-15"
# Additional KDE Keyboards
KDEKEYBOARDS="us,dk,fi,no"
;;
They will make it possible for swedes to have a swedish keyboard & characterset per default.

And so to the CD vs. DVD question:
New computers all have DVD drives, some fancy ones even a burner. As a Linux demo, which is compatible to a 486, it would best be fitted onto a CD to be used in as many computers as posible. Don't drop the CD-version! A CD is readable in a DVD-ROM but not the other way round.

Do a more complete DVD-version too. Gradually people will start using the DVD-version and in a few years the CD will become obsolete.

For time beeing there should be a Knoppix3.4CD and a Knoppix3.4DVD version. The only question is not DVD-burner or not, but also a question about bandwidth, filesystems and so on. I tried downlading a DVD version the other day onto an ext2-filesystem, but at 2GB wget had exceede its maximum filesize... I had my internet connection cloged up for 36 hr in vain...

Hasse
04-14-2004, 12:03 AM
... please remove English and leave Polish!Remove ALL languages but the common language english (keep german too, due to Klaus).

If you want another language - do a remaster. There is a remaster called Nordix, with swedish, finish, danish and norwegian. Anotherone called Baltix with the baltic languages.

The benefit of a remaster is, you can have your local keyboard layout in the boot menu, system menues and dialog boxes in your local language.

Soon someone will argue we should have Knoppix in chinese only, maybe with some language support for thamil or Indian languages too, due to their size.

pnti
04-14-2004, 12:22 AM
... please remove English and leave Polish!Remove ALL languages but the common language english (keep german too, due to Klaus).

Soon someone will argue we should have Knoppix in chinese only ...

You have just suggested it. In my opinion locales are VERY important.

robwelch100
04-14-2004, 12:26 AM
BTW j.drake, you make a very great argument, obviously a debater in school.
rob

moustache
04-14-2004, 01:27 AM
Klaus,
Please save us from this thread!
Maybe if you just drop the already-made Knoppix 3.4 c't iso on the main download mirrors it would put some of us (and this thread!) out of our misery and you could quickly follow up with the next 3.4 (or 3.5) version...

...everthing is getting blurry, the word on my monitor are swimming before my eyes....(moustache slumps forward onto his keyboard)....

kde, dvd, mic, key, m-o-u-s-e...*

freeballer
04-14-2004, 02:33 AM
remove all 3 (Remove Koffice / kdegames and edutainment), makes alot of space on the cd afterwards

I personally remove the kde-i18n too but I can understand most of them being left in

EdlinUser
04-14-2004, 05:48 AM
Klaus,
Please save us from this thread!


Really funny! Thanks.

Lullaby
04-14-2004, 08:58 AM
What about removing KDE? :?

EasyDisk
04-14-2004, 11:23 AM
I sould:

remove /usr/share/doc/ Who reads the changelog and important installation information?, but make it available on a website so in case you want to read it is available on the internet (and in most cases man gives more information) (it saves 130 Mbyte)

remove the 2.4.X kernel, just one kernel (2.6.X) is good.

make 2 version:
for example
one with languages US/EN/NL/DE and one with FR/ES/IT... (Germaan <=> Romaan (?)) or one for USA/Europe and one for the rest of the world...
(now there is also an -en and -de version, you can easily change the thedault setting by editing the file, maybe there is someone who can make an Windows tool for that for the Windows users.)
is saves +/- 50Mbyte

If there must be removed applications: emacs/tex/tetex and so. Knoppix is to show Linux to Linux newbies who are (in most cases) just normal Windows users, they want to see the Linux version of the webbrowser, office suite, email client, simple games and so on, no difficult emacs editor or so...

Make is a 2 CD version, CD1 just for the live CD, not all the emacs packages and so and CD2 is an extra CD in case you want to install it on HD, you can add emacs, documentation, games, more languages (I18n), other applications... (so a light Live CD and an extra CD with more applications in case you want to install it on HD)
In this case you can also remove dpkg with all the files and put it in CD #2.

And you could remove the pdf and ogg files from the CD, save +/- 6Mbyte.

probono
04-14-2004, 02:50 PM
If there must be removed applications: emacs/tex/tetex and so. Knoppix is to show Linux to Linux newbies
But please do *not remove LyX* and the apps it needs. Programs like LyX can really show the power of Linux to newbies and demonstrate that Linux isn't just a Windows clone ;)

But I agree, more "esoteric" tools such as emacs tend not to be very useful for the newbie...

Anyway, perhaps we really should focus on customized CDs rather than "one" Knoppix (see the "debianization of Knoppix, http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9706)

hkfczrqj
04-14-2004, 03:07 PM
1. Knoppix is about KDE - Gnoppix is about GNOME, so we should stick to KDE, and lose everything there is to GNOME - environment, libs, packages, etc.

I thought that Knoppix was about Klaus Knopper :)

I agree that Knoppix is KDE based, and GNOME apps should be gone if there is another with similar functionality (e.g. use Kopete instead of Gaim) but removing everything related to the G word is a little too extreme. A lot of non GNOME apps depend on GNOME libs (which, AFAIK, do not take much space).

EDIT:
Oh, pls keep emacs. But if emacs is gone, I want vi gone too! :twisted: . Or are you telling that vi is newbie-friendly?

Cheers...

frontier
04-14-2004, 04:53 PM
Instead of taking out this or that application, why not have 2 live CDs: one with the 2.4.X kernal and the other with the 2.6.X.

OErjan
04-14-2004, 06:45 PM
JOKE
hkfczrqj:
naaaah, neither VI nor emacs are user friendly, least not as much as echo or cat :twisted: those are virtually minute and you can make textfiles with them... so out with all editors, just keep echo and cat :lol: who uses kword anyway? or anything X for that matter :wink:, everyone must use the console :roll: why taint Linux with graphix, text works in books, and has done for millenia, computers are no toys for kids, and as xfree86 is the comic of computers :roll: it taints them, we will not even mention other even more perverted sytems :D
/JOKE
naaah, seriously, there are lots of pros/cons, for all choises, i have my preference you all have yours. and Klaus has his, and as klaus is mr knoppix... HE decides, we can but pray that he chooses as wisely as he has in the past.
OErjan

Magallanes
04-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Hi everyone

IMHO :

-KOffice bye!
-Many language stuff.. bye! English is enough (and Deutch for logical reasons)
-Many games.. bye!
-DVD?.. NO WAY!, dvd is about 3 or 4 gigz. Who wanna to put in a dvd?.. everythings?. In any case, Knoppix for a while is enough for a cd, i don't think to change in dvd version will made the diference. In fact, the cd version have with koffice (a lot of useless space), so without koffice, "we" have more space in cd. Yeah, everyone have a dvd player in their PC, but it's not common to have a dvd-writter in everypc. Even more, think in the distro and every server that host it (poor server that will be pushed to support +4gigz imagen U_U )
Knoppix is useable because you can run linux in any pc. Almost any pc have cd-player not dvd-player!.

I'm a older knoppix user (i'm still use a 2002 version). I missed the fact that this distro cannot have mp3s. If don't have (latest releace) then i like a knoppix version with some mp3 (not illegal).

cm
04-14-2004, 10:37 PM
hi to all :lol:
I have a simpler suggestion, however more laborious, write a script OWN-CUSTOM-KNOPPIX in a way that each one can include your favorite application establishing its proper size, being it CD or DVD;
one SITE (DEBIAN by side)for acquisition the programs and a standard-image ISO for this end...

ps. i never used remaster way, but i think something like that

This sounds *very* interesting.

Imagine yourself booting the standard CD issue of Knoppix 4.0
(let's assume you have a PC with a CD- or DVD-Rom and a CD or DVD writer)
- You fire up a new GUI app (to be written, let's call it KCK (Knoppix Construction Kit (tm))).
- You start a new "Knoppix project". This creates an image with a basic Knoppix framework but without any "advanced" apps.
- KCK will let you configure a Debian sources.list
- KCK will let you install into this image any Debian packages you want (and/or klik packages?)
- KCK will let you manually add and change files to further customize the image
- The custom image will be written to CD or DVD (e.g. using k3b)

This would allow us to restrict ourselves to a CD *and* empower
people with DVD hardware to run a custom DVD issue of Knoppix.

Could this be done? Am I smoking crack?

pbk105
04-14-2004, 10:42 PM
In the interest of chiming in and adding my thoughts to the fray, I believe that we should all think about what the purpose of the Knoppix CD is. As I understood, it was intended to achieve basic educational goals and to help new users get acquainted with linux. As such, I think one should consider that by far the majority of users or students getting acquaited with Linux will be coming from a Windows background and from many countries. Therefore, apps that have versions that run on both OSes should stay (Mozilla, Firebird, OOo) and those only available on Linux should go (Koffice, etc.). When the newb grows used to the Linux paradigm, he can explore his new world further by getting into Linux only apps. Of course, since Knoppix has such great appeal to users the world over, localization would be a "must retain" feature.

All the points bandied about in this thread about keeping this app or that seem to come from seasoned Knoppix users who should now be able to use apt or other methods to install packages. They should step back and consider the newbies coming to Knoppix for the first time. They should consider that some of the lesser used apps or redundant apps should be moved off the CD to wait in the wings for the moment the new user ventures to say, "What else can it do?"

At this point, every person arguing for their own apps and not giving an inch will result in us forever waiting indefinitely for something, *anything* to be released. That, does NO ONE any good.

As for me, cut whatever you like but release it on CD *not* DVD only. I'll make due with whatever I've been given *for free no less* and be happy with that.

Anyway, Knoppix has been a tremedous asset to me in my endeavor to learn more about linux and I would like to thank those involved in bringing to the world .

--Paul

probono
04-14-2004, 10:54 PM
I think one should consider that by far the majority of users or students getting acquaited with Linux will be coming from a Windows background and from many countries. Therefore, apps that have versions that run on both OSes should stay (Mozilla, Firebird, OOo) and those only available on Linux should go (Koffice, etc.)

This would explain Linux to new users as a Windows clone (and Linux isn't very good as a Windows clone either). Instead, new users should be shown the advantages of Linux.

So, quite in contrast to the quote above, I would vote for leaving apps out that people already know from the Windows world.


OWN-CUSTOM-KNOPPIX
debix tries to do something like this: http://knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9706

j.drake
04-14-2004, 11:03 PM
having DVD only is pointless and would kill knoppix.

Well, that's why I suggested at least keeping the existing CD ISOs up, possibly with less frequent updates for major releases. But seriously, it's pretty hard to argue that a DVD version of Knoppix 3.4 would be so incredibly devastating, given that Klaus himself was handing them out at CeBit like candy. I really can't imagine him working so hard to destroy his own creation.

The world is not flat, God doesn't care if we want to fly, the sky is not falling down, and Knoppix will survive if distributed in a DVD configuration. Trust me on this one.

Fabianx
04-14-2004, 11:43 PM
having DVD only is pointless and would kill knoppix.

Well, that's why I suggested at least keeping the existing CD ISOs up, possibly with less frequent updates for major releases. But seriously, it's pretty hard to argue that a DVD version of Knoppix 3.4 would be so incredibly devastating, given that Klaus himself was handing them out at CeBit like candy. I really can't imagine him working so hard to destroy his own creation.

At CeBit that were CDs ...

There are DVDs isos for download [see in News] (unofficial, but heh) ...

cu

Fabian

clinux
04-15-2004, 01:19 AM
[quote="Fabianx"]Hi,
I'm just back from vacation and want to inform you, why Knoppix is not out already:
1. We are over with 65 MB (KDE 3.2.1 is big!). So we need to delete some stuff, but what? (Proposals can be written based on last edition of 3.3 as programs almost remain the same, but get bigger ... :-/ )

---
i apology for my ¿english or spanglish ? :lol:
I propose to following:
create one CD BASE, with 2 or 3 WM examples , KDE, GNOME, BLANE2000
and One program for type, graphical and command line,
look remaster of kurumin or kalango for one idea

and create one CD APPS, with rest the program , this is form , if i need one program
of CD APPS , i make "apt-get cdrom" =)
(i am ¿thinking=[ in spanish is pensando]? in the people with not conecction to internet)

savage
04-15-2004, 01:27 AM
Well, that's why I suggested at least keeping the existing CD ISOs up, possibly with less frequent updates for major releases. But seriously, it's pretty hard to argue that a DVD version of Knoppix 3.4 would be so incredibly devastating, given that Klaus himself was handing them out at CeBit like candy. I really can't imagine him working so hard to destroy his own creation.

The world is not flat, God doesn't care if we want to fly, the sky is not falling down, and Knoppix will survive if distributed in a DVD configuration. Trust me on this one.
I agree that having DVD for those who can burn DVDs would be better, but most people can't use it. Also just having outdated (and unpatched) software as your only CD isn't a good idea especially if someone wants to do a hard drive install.

While knoppix won't be gone for sure, people would move on to another live CD if it was DVD only. Not that anyone is seriously considering switching just to DVD.

chAos
04-15-2004, 06:01 AM
I dont mean to be rude, but could we please at least get something released. The 2.6 kernel is what should help me install gentoo onto my raid, but they didn't put in on the 2004.0 live cd (bit stupid IMO).

Anyway, there no need for koffice if you've got open office. IMO, just remove things that shouldn't be needed for a liveCD. And release another version for people who want to put it on their hard drive.

xav
04-15-2004, 03:01 PM
I use Knoppix for four different reasons:-

1) As a rescue disc - for this I need it to be CD based, have good drivers and compatability (e.g. having both 2.4 and 2.6 is an advantage), and useful tools for handling disks - e.g. fdisk, partimage. I do use QTParted in this case, as it is sometimes quicker/easier to work with a more graphical view of the partition layout.

2) As a diagnostic tool. Similar to the above, but usually with a greater emphasis on networking tools in my case.

3) As a portable environment. Combined with a USB key for my home, it means that I can quickly get a familiar and comfortable working environment on almost any machine. Many of the machines I use lack DVD drives. For this I like to have the software that I prefer to use on my normal desktop machine - OOo, Mozilla suite plus a few games (FreeCiv and a couple of card games).

4) As a demo to Windows users. The key selling points are OOo and Mozilla - they are easy to understand (a free equivalent to MS Office, a free equivalent to IE/Outlook), and there's the possibility for Windows users to switch to them without having to go down the Linux route (not everyone can or will switch, but OOo and Moz are great introductions to the world of Open Source).


Personally I'd lose KOffice (I never use it) and some of the I18N stuff (but then I'm a native English speaker). I'd also lose many of the games, but not all of them.

Regarding the I18N stuff - maybe we've just reached a point where localisation needs to be handled by local user groups for each release. Perhaps it would be sufficient to omit most of the languages, but provide detailed instructions (which could then be translated) about how to remaster for a different language set.

Jack_
04-15-2004, 03:09 PM
Suggestion for a
HD install version and a LiveCD version.

The HD install version could have just the basics then users could apt-get the rest as needed, I'd bet most just use the CD for easy HD installs of Linux anyhow. Would cut DL time as well.

pbk105
04-15-2004, 03:19 PM
I think one should consider that by far the majority of users or students getting acquaited with Linux will be coming from a Windows background and from many countries. Therefore, apps that have versions that run on both OSes should stay (Mozilla, Firebird, OOo) and those only available on Linux should go (Koffice, etc.)

This would explain Linux to new users as a Windows clone (and Linux isn't very good as a Windows clone either). Instead, new users should be shown the advantages of Linux.

So, quite in contrast to the quote above, I would vote for leaving apps out that people already know from the Windows world.


OWN-CUSTOM-KNOPPIX
debix tries to do something like this: http://knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9706

Well, I disagree. Most Microsoft users are going to fall back on their Windows experience to try to get a grip on Linux. At the university where I work, I have seen it many times already. You can't just push someone into Linux and command them to learn. To do it that way, you have to overcome tremendous resistance. They will always tend to fall back on some knowledge they already have. And what's wrong with that? I doubt anyone who can use Mozilla on Windows would think that Knoppix is just a clone because it too runs Mozilla. Ask a Mac fan if he thinks his fav OS is a Windows clone because it runs MS Office.

No one doubts that Linux doesn't do Windows well. However, doing Windows well seems to be the brass ring for the distros from what I see. Windows, whether you love it or hate it, is the benchmark by which many users AND creators of the various distros measure the usability and success of Linux because that is where most new Linux users are going to come from.

If a user can try out Mozilla on Windows and then knows the app will run on Linux too, then they already have some basis for understanding Knoppix. Open Office, winamp clones, etc, allow new users to jump right in and get some use out of the OS as well as move their documents, playlists, etc, back and forth without converting formats all the time. My point is, new KNoppix users will be in a transitory period and will be moving back and forth and comparing Knoppix to the OS to which they are familiar.

If I can run Open Office on my Windows box and my Linux box and move files back and forth seamlessly, what would be the benefit of running Koffice on Knoppix and having to convert (or risk a problematic conversion) to use the doc somewhere else?

Knoppix is water wings for the new swimmer. Probono, I fear that you just want to boot them into the pool and let'em sink or swim.

--Paul

c123
04-15-2004, 05:21 PM
I think the most important thing is to reduce redundancy... Here's my take on some of the points raised:

1. CD only, and 1 CD only.
CD is the lowest common denominator. If there really is demand for a DVD version, then I'm sure someone will step up to satisfy it.
1 CD only, and 1 version only as making multiple versions (or a version spanning two CDs) requires too much maintenance.

2. Office Suites
Seems junking one of the two office suites is the easiest way to claim back some space. Personally I don't really care which one goes, and which one stays (going by the arguments given in the last ten pages, there are pros and cons for both).

3. Games
Gotta stay. I've never played any of them yet, but Knoppix is meant to appeal to a wide audience, and not just be 'work'/'rescue'.

4. Various Locale Support
Definately try to keep. Not eveyone has a good command of English of German, and it must be pretty impressive to have KDE in your native language when there isn't even a version of Windows for that language!

5. Development Tools
Keep, reduce redundancy (?), as with office suites.

6. Kernel
Get rid of the 2.4 kernel. I can't think of any real reason to keep it. alongside the 2.6 kernel.

7. All Other Categories
Reduce redundancy wherever possible, although leaving a choice (of two apps) if possible.

Anyway, I hope there's a 3.4 soon...

robwelch100
04-15-2004, 05:30 PM
Now that this thread has reached 10 pages I have noticed that original reason for the post is being ignored. THE BOTTOM LINE, 3.4 will not be released untill 65MB are trimed. Just an idea but maybe we can give our ideas and let those involved in making the product decide the merits and leave the squabling for another thread. We have gotten detoured onto other topics like cd vs. dvd (myself included). lets work as a knoppix community to give our suggestions (for that's all they are) and move on. Most of the posts on this thread spend time debating the opinions of another person (opinions are rarely changed so easily) This is supposed to be a "suggestion box". No one will die if an app they use every now and then, is removed to make this thing fit.

c123
04-15-2004, 06:07 PM
The common consensus (!?!?!) is to get rid of one of the office suites (KOffice or Open Office)... As two are (is?) overkill, and that should go a long way to releasing the required 65 MB. Only there's little agreement on which one should be removed. I 'spose the best thing would be to set up a poll (got to run or I'd try to do it).

Other suggestions are removing
- games (I'm against),
- locales other than English and German (against),
- development tools (against),
- 2.4 kernel (for).

Perhaps it should be part of the poll? Time to go home, will check on this later.

at88mph
04-15-2004, 07:14 PM
What if there were a game distribution, and an office distribution to pick from? You could pick whatever packages you want after that. Part of the beauty of Linux is that you can acquire virtually anything you want, so get an Office distribution, then apt-get whatever games, and only the games, you want. That way, there would also be plenty of room on both distributions to expand on them in their own direction (i.e. game distribution gets more and better games).

I'm sure people could think of better reasons for doing this too, but this is off the top of my head.

Dustin

fstephens
04-15-2004, 07:56 PM
Well, if there is a poll, I vote to remove KOffice. Not to put down the KDE developers, but OO is clearly in the lead for now, plus being cross-platform.

If this frees up the 65MB, great, if not, I personally would lose the games and keep the best of apps that are duplicates.
Perhaps keep only one lightweight window manager too?

Mostly I use Mozilla, OO, GIMP, image viewers, gphoto and the diagnostic tools-QTParted, etc.

I doubt that many people use the Live CD version as thier primary OS, so that should also help dicate which programs to keep-
What do we REALLY need on a live CD?

I do like the idea of a script that generates a personally customized version if it can be easily done, but I sure would like to see 3.4 soon!

LordHarshmage
04-16-2004, 12:49 AM
[OK, everyone start chanting with me so that Klaus himself can hear us . . . .

WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!! :wink:[/quote]



WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!! WE WANT DVD!!!!

Oh, and I wouldn't mind killing Mozilla and putting on Firefox. Moz takes just so long to load, and it's...it's too much like Nutscrape to me.

SUOrangeman
04-16-2004, 12:59 AM
... The 2.6 kernel is what should help me install gentoo onto my raid, but they didn't put in on the 2004.0 live cd (bit stupid IMO).

The 'smp' kernel on Gentoo 2004.0 is indeed 2.6. I think the normal kernel is 2.4. Once you've booted up, you can pull the gentoo-dev-sources to compile the latest 2.6.x kernel.

Anyway, I am happily running Gentoo with the 2.6.5 kernel, and may not come back to KNOPPIX until its 2.6 kernel supports my Promise SATA controller out-of-the-box. It's kinda had to play with the hdinstall, if I can even see my HD!

Oh yeah, I would thoroughly enjoy a DVD iso, as long as the above requirement is met!

-SUO

A. Jorge Garcia
04-16-2004, 04:16 AM
What if there were a game distribution, and an office distribution to pick from? You could pick whatever packages you want after that.

Come on, Johnny, can you spell MORPHIX?

Regards,
AJG

at88mph
04-16-2004, 05:36 AM
While that is another option, this is a Knoppix forum. There're plenty of other distributions if you simply wanted to work around the issue as opposed to solve it. Why not allow Knoppix flavours?

zentu
04-16-2004, 07:35 AM
While that is another option, this is a Knoppix forum. There're plenty of other distributions if you simply wanted to work around the issue as opposed to solve it. Why not allow Knoppix flavours?

Perhaps because there is only one Klaus, so let him work on the one, then anyone else could work on the Ideas that they have. Sorry if I sound like an arse, but the guy only has so much time...

I personally think that he should release it on a DVD [that he could easily remaster into the CD] (but keep the CD as a different version number, so that the enivitable release of an only DVD version wouldn't be so unexpected whenever it finally arrives), that way he won't really have to worry for these type of space constraint options for quite awhile, but then again that is his choice, not mine. But I really hope that he can get the ISO out soon.


P.s. Hey site MODs could we place the headlines back on the Front page again, it saves me some time so I can see if there is any new news when at school.

Castershell
04-16-2004, 07:38 AM
Or at least announce when 3.4 is out on the front page ya?

TyphoonMentat
04-16-2004, 08:54 AM
I'm definitely against removing development tools, as for one they're invaluable when it comes to remastering (I remaster with the LiveCD), and general testing purposes - if your program crashes, it can't wreck the system.
It's amazing how many people ask on forums of mini-Knoppix remasters (i.e. Damn Small or Feather) for programs like gcc, so a LiveCD with these tools is obviously in high demand.
Also, it helps attract Windows techies and programmers - "Look, you can even compile something from this CD in C, C++, Perl, Python..."

I'll take an in-depth look at the Knoppix package list later and try to give exact packages that in my opinion are merely ancillary.

TyphoonMentat
04-16-2004, 09:18 AM
Right, here's my list of things to remove:

aalib1 and aalib-bin - these are pretty much useless
acroread - this is non-free anyway, and there's xpdf and gv
bb - an ASCII art demo, no real use
bochs - some might want this, but in general people don't use it (this means all bochs packages and bximage)
chromium - On most systems it runs far too slow anyway
dietlibc-dev - This is only needed for those who are perhaps creating bootfloppies with dietlibc
fb-music-high - Does Frozen Bubble really need high-quality music? Can we save space by reducing the quality?
freeciv - This one's debatable, but it's a game
icewm - KDE and Fluxbox are enough IMO
ISDN utils - you could keep these, but I don't know of anyone who uses ISDN nowadays
jpilot - use kpilot
kasteroids, kbattleship
Koffice - reasons have already been mentioned
larswm
lynx - elinks is better, and it's already there
Mozilla - Firebird and Thunderbird are smaller, unless you use the Debian packages...
Nedit - large, and we have just about every other editor anyway
Perl - remove the threads support, it's not often used and makes Perl much bigger
selflinux - if you really had to, you could save around 20Mb doing this
TCT - replace with the Sleuth Kit
vim-gtk - Most people only use the console version (I think...)
vlc-aa - More extraneous ASCII art stuff
xscat
zile - we have Emacs, so we don't need a tiny version of it

I have some things I'd like included as well, but we're trying to save space here, so I'll refrain, except for one thing - I really really think amsn should be included, as lots of Windows users use MSN Messenger, and it has a familiar interface and practically all the features that MSN Messenger does.

Del
04-16-2004, 01:11 PM
I am probably way too late to make any difference here. Anyway, here ti goes:
Those of you who still need the 2.4 kernel have the 3.3 version, and I see no reasons (might be my ignorance) why you would need the 3.4 version. Remove the 2.4 kernel in 3.4.
Some of you don't realize that language is critical, European languages use different keyboards (which is what I am familiar with), meaning that without language support I won't even be able to get the keys on my keyboard right. I don't think Klaus would like an abundance of different ISO's to handle, and local remasters will always be remasters. Leave language support in!

The most sensible thing is to cut applications that serve the same purpose. Konqueror and Mozilla are not such applications, they are both needed. Many text editors however are, but don't cut Emacs. I know many of you love to hate it, but we who belong to the majority use it. PDF viewers were mentioned and in my opinion is a good example, likewise with image viewers, lightweight desktops (those who uses them can easily make the transition, e.g. from window maker to fluxbox). Office suits however is a tough one. MS users get the chills when they see how slow OO (and Mozilla for that matter) loads. Then again OO is more powerful. Keep both!

I think multimedia support on the other hand should be strengthned, cutting out TV card support is stupid. If we want to convince MS users we'd better show them that their fancy hardware is supported, and for todays desktops multimedia support is extremely imortant. For that reason I have been forced to ditch knoppix and rather use overclockix when I want to convince MS users that Linux is a viable alternative (nvidia/ati driver and mplayer included).

zenok
04-16-2004, 01:37 PM
At my side - a idea is coming up - I will create maybe an own Live Linux and this will parted in two Live CDs: Zenoppix User and Zenoppix Server

I think from time to time Knoppix has to say this is our target and maybe Knoppix is soon only a base for other specific remasters ... mh .... as other says kde-network suite VS mozilla and koffice VS openoffice and many other duells .... but when I create my own Zenoppix LiveLinux the user will vote/post for the packages and it bases of the next 3.4 DL Edition ;)

proto
04-16-2004, 05:01 PM
Dont get too excited abt 3.4 how many of us have mastered 3.3 :?:

Hasse
04-16-2004, 06:56 PM
... European languages use different keyboards (which is what I am familiar with), meaning that without language support I won't even be able to get the keys on my keyboard right.The internationalization (i18n) support contains translations of kde apps and menus to different languages, at the cost of 100 mb. Keyboard layouts and locals (currencies, time formats etc) are not part of the i18n packages and you will not loose any keybord layout by removing any of these.

Remove all languages but a few, in order: english, german, spanish, french, russian and japanese.

agent_smith
04-16-2004, 07:28 PM
Remove all languages but a few, in order: english, german, spanish, french, russian and japanese.

True, true (Budweiser style) :D

MildBill
04-16-2004, 10:37 PM
when reading the comments, alot ppl favor removing Koffice and Mozilla, and only having the 2.6.x kernel. guess thats ok, although I prefer Koffice for its speed - but you can always install it after the hdinstall.


The whole point is that with the HD install, speed is a lesser problem, it is on the live CD that speed is an issue. Leave KOffice, there must be many other ways to regain a mere 65 MB.

The many ideas of a second CD with lesser used development items, other window managers, etc is probably a very good one. This is where an HD install shines, as you can then add these items if you want/need them.
However, the very notion of the live CD version of linux is what makes Knoppix so very attractive. Trim off the fat, keep the main muscle items, and put the rest on the second CD for those who want an HD install.

OErjan
04-16-2004, 10:42 PM
eeeh, if the ISO is 65Mb tooo large that is almost 250Mb to be removed in apps.
LOTS of trimming.

MildBill
04-16-2004, 11:26 PM
eeeh, if the ISO is 65Mb tooo large that is almost 250Mb to be removed in apps.
LOTS of trimming.

A good point, but still...
Seems to me that that large of a size increase could not have simply snuck up on the developers, it has to also be the inclusion of more apps, more bells and whistles, etc. So, again, trim the fat, make the live CD the best it can be, but move lesser used, slower apps to a second CD, for installation on the HD, and possibly for inclusion on a custom live CD of the users design.

OR, as has been suggested in a backhanded way already, do some redesign (probably for the 3.5 release, as this will take time) such that you have one CD which is the trimmed down live CD, and a second CD which allows for install of it's packages to the HD. The key change is to make it simple for people to create a third CD, which is a custom live CD containing whatever packages they really want/need.
They would start with the original live CD to create a 'barebones' version, then add what they wanted from the other CD, or from the Internet, until they were done, or ran out of room. Here you could build in the option to allow for 650 MB CDs, 700MB, 800MB, or DVD, as the users option. And, as much as possible, include necessary scripting or whatever to optimize the remaster as much as is possible, to reduce speed issues.

Just my $0.02

MildBill

NOTE: As of this time, I have to say that I am NOT a user of Knoppix yet. Since I am a laptop user, I am waiting for the 3.4 release to try it. I have, however, used linux before, so I am not a total newbie. but I am anxious for the 2.6 kernel, and the updated version of KDE before I commit to it.

silvestrij
04-17-2004, 04:01 AM
Oh, I read it, I just wasn't convinced by it. Didn't mean to insult you, though.

Also, as you pointed out - "We've deliberately ordered them without DVD drives " - they are so mainstream and ubiquitous that you have to take special pains to NOT have one. You made my point for me. Even Celeron computers are being sold with DVD players as standard equipment.

Although it may be true that you had no need for them at the time, the time will come when that won't be the case. I'm not trying to second-guess the wisdom of that decision, but clearly there may be consequences associated with it - among them that you may have to buy replacement drives for them or replace them when an important application like Knoppix goes to DVD.

History shows that software inevitably grows over time, and the distribution media along with it. It's going to happen - it's just an issue of when. . . . . All I'm saying is that the time is now (at least for the option).

Actually, I think I was a tad mistaken in my point of implying that we said "No, don't include DVD drives." They were an option (not the default), and we chose not to take it. I just went into the Dell sys. configurator, and here's the media drive selector:


No Optical Device [ Subtract $26.10 ]
48X CD-ROM
48X/32X/48X CD-RW [ Add $27.00 ]
16X DVD with Software Decode [ Add $18.00 ]
48X DVD-CDRW Combo Drive [ Add $72.00 ]
48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo,with Roxio Easy CD Creator® and DVD decode [ Add $72.00 ]
8X DVD+RW/+R, Roxio plus Decode [ Add $144.00 ]
48X CD-ROM AND 48X/32X/48X CD-RW [ Add $44.10 ]
48X CD and DVD-CDRW Combo,with Roxio Easy CD Creator® and DVD decode [ Add $90.00 ]
48X CD and 48X32 CDRW/DVD Combo,with Roxio Easy CD Creator®/DVD decode [ Add $90.00 ]
16xDVD AND 48X/32X/48X CDRW,with Roxio Easy CD Creator® and DVD decode [ Add $62.10 ]
8X DVD+RW/+R and 48X CD-ROM with Roxio Easy CD Creator® and DVD decode [ Add $153.00 ]
8X DVD+RW/+R and 16X DVD with Roxio Easy CD Creator® and DVD decode [ Add $171.00 ]


So tell me, when I'm buying 100 new computers, am I really going to spend $1800 more on something I DON'T NEED?

I can buy 2 more computers that I could really use, or close to one server. Forgive me for what might come across as rude, but I really see DVD drives as a 'home user' thing, and the concept of 'all computers have them,' as a gamer/kiddie attitude. Most computers do not need DVD drives - and in a corporate (or academic, but managed with a corporate style) environment, there is simply no need for it. Tell me why an administrative assistant needs to watch movies on her computer? I don't see any useful DVD-ROMs out there today - and to this note I freely admit...I'm a geek who programs for fun, and admins and/or does tech support for work - I'm probably not your average user, and don't care about frilly things.

I just queried my inventory - among approximately 700 computers, we have a grand total of 24 DVD-ROM drives. Of those, 4 were from systems we didn't spec out (and the fool who put that order together insisted on it, despite having no clue about computers), 16 were Apples, so you pretty much have no choice, and the other 4 were miscellaneous, with at least 2 of them glitches in ordering. This boils down to 1.24% of our machines being able to run this fancy DVD distro (properly calculated as 'PCs with DVDs'/'Total computers, not including Apple''). I have at my disposal a sizable population of computers on which I can use Knoppix (for troubleshooting, demonstration, general use [it's so good to have a Linux desktop on hand], or misc. use) - care to tell me why the version I use on these machines shouldn't be the best, most current version? I don't particularly like being excluded like that, and Knoppix is a live CD distro for *everyone*.

P.S. I'm sorry I brought this post back up/took so long - I've been really busy the last couple of days...

firebyrd10
04-17-2004, 04:11 AM
I'm not to sure what should be removed to make space but I know that the games shouldn't. Many people who I show knoppix too head straight for them. I also enjoy them. espically enigma.

firebyrd10
04-17-2004, 04:15 AM
I can buy 2 more computers that I could really use, or close to one server. Forgive me for what might come across as rude, but I really see DVD drives as a 'home user' thing, and the concept of 'all computers have them,' as a gamer/kiddie attitude. Most computers do not need DVD drives - and in a corporate (or academic, but managed with a corporate style) environment, there is simply no need for it. Tell me why an administrative assistant needs to watch movies on her computer? I don't see any useful DVD-ROMs out there today - and to this note I freely admit...I'm a geek who programs for fun, and admins and/or does tech support for work - I'm probably not your average user, and don't care about frilly things.

Currently you have a pont but as prices go down and reliablity goes up DVD will become a much more prominante storage medium with the capacity so much larger then a cd's.
Though right now an all DVD distro isn't practical but as time goes on it will.

roberto
04-17-2004, 08:19 AM
Ok just a couple of quick notes and then suggestions before I head off to bed. (sorry I havent posted anything in so long). first three opinions:

#1 Knoppix needs more people actively submitting documentation.
#2 Knoppix needs a bigger, more reliable system for releasing international updated versions. if only one local were released in each ISO. many many MB would be saved. and people would get an ISO in their native language. start to finish.
#3 Maybe Knoppix has something to learn from Morphix. modular packages (maybe put i18n files in separate modules) allow the user to pick the general task the cd is designed for while maintaining all of the aspects that make knoppix so great. be it rescue cd or newbie they get the chioce. also would make kernel selection MUCH easier i would assume.

1.) Knoppix excels extremely well at doing 2 main things.
a.) A linux demonstration for windows users. (read: newbies environment for learning linux, even on extremely old hardware.)

b.) A rescue environment. (Finding faulty hardware, rescuing data, fixing windows, removing viruses (if using one of my old remasters), even on old hardware as well.)

2.) We have to remember that:

a.) MANY people dont have access to new hardware, or where knoppix will be used will be on old hardware (read: rescuing data from a windows 98 machine or old linux server.)

b.) Frequently the users trying linux are people owning an older version of windows who also don't want to pay another $200 for another microsoft OS when they feel that the one they have is adequate (many are mainly sick of the spyware / security risks) . Many people with XP have XP because they didnt mind paying for it or got it pre-installed. (point: dvd-roms are currently not popular enough to use for main distro. start developing a reliable dvd format, filesystem, and ISO / boot system until the dvd-readers / burners become popular enough. as we know... currently the dvd format that was tried had plenty of bugs!)

c.) Most of the people using Knoppix are complete linux newbies.

PROBLEM! The two Main uses for knoppix totally contradict each other as far as what should be included on cd.

IMMEDIATE SOLUTION! keep the duality until there is a better way to divide what stays and what goes. next version. (use polls or whatever). remove the internationalization support (kde-i18n-XX) files for DE from the EN iso and remove the EN from the DE release. people in USA who want to use german or people speaking english in Germany simply download the appropriate version. the locals really deserve their own distro per language because people speaking different languages really deserve to have their primary language used throughout the entire cd. which means that a system to easily remaster a main (EN or DE) version into another local has to be made. that way people speaking italian or french or whatever get the latest and greatest too.

PARTIAL SOLUTION!

For the newbie intro version

Keep 2 of everything and no more. one for fast machines and one for slower. personally im in favor of the following:

window managers: icewm / kde similar design (and program compat.)

Office Editors: OOo - (other program, i only use OOo as its on both my windows machines and linux.) (&GIMP 2 please)

Text editors: (VIM / GVIM - (no alternative for me others would want one though))

Browsers: (mozilla (ive had much better luck with java compat.) and konqueror (part of KDE anyways)

For the Tech / rescue cd:

Get rid of KDE entirely except for the libs (for program compat.) update the kernel and tools. remove games extra editors etc.. add more server programs. apache modules and such. maybe even relegate this task to the realms of morphix which has modular support.

my idea is that i would use morphix if the wide selection of knoppix existed in its modules. for instance. if it had icewm in any of its modules any more. or if i could add an apache module or mysql module to it, etc...

Maybe Klaus and "Alextreme" could get together and make this problem "not exist" VIA using modules to support whatever the user wants... same download size or smaller than 700Mb... keep all of your favorite packages... get the latest and greatest... what a wonderful thing.

oh and for the flamers in the forum... im not interested. i accept criticizim only if its constructive.
I love Morphix
I love Knoppix
I love Linux
and interestingly I Love Windows ( it keeps meals on the table and food in my stomach, im a tech)

I only want to see the positives from both morphix and knoppix combine to solve two problems at once... size of the iso and package selection. and morphix's lack of lots of small modules... im sure we can bring in the knoppix community if maintainence becomes an issue... e-mail me with inquireies.


burnt-toast

Rink
04-17-2004, 11:27 AM
>Knoppix excels extremely well at doing 2 main things.

Well, there is a third thing: HD install of Debian.

The Knoppix CD installs Debian on a machine in a simpler and faster way than anything I've used previously.

Not only that, it results in a Debian install which is far slimmer than Mandrake or SUSe (I haven't used these distros for some years now, they might have improved since), and is (mostly) correctly configured for the hardware.

The HD install, then, raises a third set of criteria which is probably more easily fulfilled. ie. anything not on the distro can be obtained via apt-get.;)

Da_Brain
04-17-2004, 02:34 PM
As a person somewhat new to linux that knows enough just to squeak by--))) I can 100% agree with the below statements! I have tried many distros and Knoppix is the only one that works right for me, the first time and EVERY time. Infact it performed so well I got another hard drive and now run Linux more than ever with the plan to migrate soon from winblows!

I don't understand all the hype here on what to have on the 3.4 CD and what not to? Even as a newbie I have run Apt-Get and installed Gnomme.

My main concern is the funcionality of the 2.6 kernel in Knoppix 3.4 and that it installs as good as Knoppix 3.3 on my hard drive. The rest I can learn and install with Apt-Get.

Knoppix is the only Distro I have tried so far that runs well on my Sony Vaio 1.4 Ghz Lap Top running wireless 802.11b and my 2.6 Ghz desktop.

Recently I have tried Susie 9.0, Mandrake Comunity 10, Gnoppix .6RC1, and serveral other not so popular Distro's. BUT Knoppix is the Distro that runs right the first time, everytime for me.

Im really looking forward to Knoppix 3.4, but just had to comment as this thread really expresses my thoughts from a Knoppix user (newbie) point of view. In fact Knoppix is the only Disrto I reccomend to others that are wanting to try out Linux.




>Knoppix excels extremely well at doing 2 main things.

Well, there is a third thing: HD install of Debian.

The Knoppix CD installs Debian on a machine in a simpler and faster way than anything I've used previously.

Not only that, it results in a Debian install which is far slimmer than Mandrake or SUSe (I haven't used these distros for some years now, they might have improved since), and is (mostly) correctly configured for the hardware.

The HD install, then, raises a third set of criteria which is probably more easily fulfilled. ie. anything not on the distro can be obtained via apt-get.;)

j.drake
04-17-2004, 05:35 PM
So tell me, when I'm buying 100 new computers, am I really going to spend $1800 more on something I DON'T NEED?

I can buy 2 more computers that I could really use, or close to one server. Forgive me for what might come across as rude, but I really see DVD drives as a 'home user' thing, and the concept of 'all computers have them,' as a gamer/kiddie attitude. Most computers do not need DVD drives - and in a corporate (or academic, but managed with a corporate style) environment, there is simply no need for it. Tell me why an administrative assistant needs to watch movies on her computer? I don't see any useful DVD-ROMs out there today - and to this note I freely admit...I'm a geek who programs for fun, and admins and/or does tech support for work - I'm probably not your average user, and don't care about frilly things.

OK, since you asked . . .

1. I think you've ansered your own question again. You made the judgment that you don't need them, but you don't want Knoppix to go to DVD because if it does, you will need one. Sorry, guy, but you're chasing your own tail. Recursive logic simply isn't persuasive to me.

2. Sounds rather paternalistic for you to presume what an administrative assistant does or does not need, just as it sounds paternalistic for you or anyone else to prescribe what others need or don't need in Knoppix. You may think you know, but you don't. Being an admin doesn't make you any more qualified to assess what apps other people need.

3. And while we're on the subject, let's take your argument to its logical conclusion. Why would an administrative assistant need Knoppix? Why would you, as an admin, need Knoppix 3.4 to run on all of these computers? Won't 3.3 serve the function of a rescue disk? Isn't it a home use, or a "playing with" function for you to be able to have the latest incarnation of Knoppix to run on any of these computers?

4. No, watching movies is not necessarily a justification for a DVD drive, but I try lawsuits for a living, and watching DVDs of deposition testimony, editing them, showing them to witnesses, clients and juries, viewing DVDs of continuing education programs, and even pasting clips of movies into professional presentations is very much part of my job duties, thank you, AND my legal assistant's. Heck, even archiving 15 years worth of Word files and PDF images from old cases could be justification for a at least one DVD burner, and DVD readers readers for retrieval on the other computers. And, just as you presume to think that no one in my corporate environment "needs" such functionality, so too do I think that I don't need some admin getting in my way by playing God with what I or my staff do or do not "need". So, hey, if you see representing my corporate client with DVD technology as a "home user" or "kiddie" thing, how 'bout if you ever have to go to court you just handle it yourself, because you and your CD drives are obviously much more qualified than any technology-savvy attorney to determine what you will "need" for your case. PCs are about flexibility and letting users make their own choices, and looking for new ways to use new technology. And if you don't mind me sounding rude, you're demonstrating kind of a luddite attitude for as much of a tech-savvy person as you obviously are. I thought that mindset died with mainframes.

Again, I'm not advocating a DVD for "coolness" - I'm trying to address the issue that the functionality needed (or desired) by a number of Knoppix users doesn't f-ing fit anymore. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't. The only way to do it now is to go to DVD now with existing CD versions as an alternative, perhaps with infrequent updates.

rduke15
04-17-2004, 11:09 PM
I understand from a previous message that is would be possible to leave out lots of languages used for menus, manuals, etc. without leaving out the various keyboard mappings, time zones, date and currency formats, and support for different character encodings.

Is that right? If so, that seems like the best solution. I have never met a Knoppix user who would want to read a man page and who wouldn't know English. In fact, even though English is not my native language, I just don't understand computer stuff in other languages than English.

If I can have an "English-speaking" system which doesn't prevent typing accented characters on my local keyboard, I'm happy.

Everybody seems to want Koffice out. Is it really so bad? I have yet to try it, but I'm sure an alternative to OOo is necessary. I hate OOo, which just mimmics all the MS-Word atrocities. If I want to get rid of MS-Word, it's not to get some slow and incomplete copy of it. I have yet to find a good word processor, but please leave alternatives to MS-Word and it's clones in Knoppix!

GuyFawkes
04-17-2004, 11:59 PM
Hello.... has everyone suddenly dropped about 40 IQ points?

There is a VERY simple solution, so simple that everyone else is already using it.

Knoppix doesn't have to fit on one CD, geddit?

Rip out all the duplicated stuff, geek stuff, and so on, and leave yourself with CD1

On CD2 you put everything you just left out and a bunch more besides, linux newbies will never need CD2, geeks won't have a problem with a 2 CD distro.

Knoppix is NOT damn small linux, it doesn't HAVE to fit on one disk.

Two other points, 700 mb disks only please, lots of older boxes wont run larger.

Big no-no to DVD, it sucks, it encourages bloatware, it assumes everyone is running high end recent hardware (which is TOTALLY against what linux vs windows is all about anyway, linux = a hardware upgrade in performance terms) and most of all it requires not just DVD readers, but DVD burners and expensive (compared to CDR) media.

Please Klaus, don't do it, so far you have done a truly incredible job, don't drop the ball now, a 2 x 700 Mb max CD distro will fit the bill nicely.

My 2c

Rink
04-18-2004, 12:18 AM
Da_Brain:

I can 100% agree with the below statements! I have tried many distros and Knoppix is the only one that works right for me, the first time and EVERY time.

So kind!

However, I believe that knoppix HD Install is not technically a distro. As I Understand It, Knoppix installs the Debian distro.

The point I was making is that an HD Install version would not need much more than a shoestring installation. Any other applications for this type of install can be cherry-picked off the net (as you point out).

But my experience certainly confirms yours; that installing Debian from Knoppix is the simplest, quickest, most reliable way of installing any distro.

moustache
04-18-2004, 01:41 AM
You guys talking about multiple cds (cd1 and cd2) seem to have forgotten that when you boot from the knoppix cd, you can't remove the cd to put in a second cd since many of the apps on the first cd are decompressed on the fly and it needs the first cd in all the time to run the linux os.

Klause, pleas put us out of our misery on this thread and release the old Knoppix 3.4 c't iso so we can get back to complaining about bugs again.

Moustache

Snow
04-18-2004, 02:33 AM
Just do something and put the stinkin thing out for cryin out loud.

This is more painfull than watching Lindows screw up the OS every time they do a new release.

Please just take out the least popular things, Leave Mozilla and OO.o in it. Give it a new fresh look, dress up the Icons a little and put it out.

Rink
04-18-2004, 11:41 AM
You guys talking about multiple cds (cd1 and cd2) seem to have forgotten that when you boot from the knoppix cd, you can't remove the cd to put in a second cd since many of the apps on the first cd are decompressed on the fly and it needs the first cd in all the time to run the linux os.

Well, you can always do a "poor man's install" by copying the Knoppix file from the CD to the HD. That frees up the CD.

Hopefully a 2 disc set would have the mechanism to copy the second disc's core file(s) across too.

rduke15
04-18-2004, 01:16 PM
copying the Knoppix file from the CD to the HD

What HD? The whole point of Knoppix is that the hard drive is not needed. There may not be any, or it may be write protected, or NTFS only, or whatever. Requiring the use of a hard drive is not acceptable.

iwod
04-18-2004, 04:15 PM
are we going to get any official reponse as to why and when are we going to see 3.4 coming out?

Rink
04-19-2004, 12:44 AM
>What HD? The whole point of Knoppix is that the hard drive
>is not needed. There may not be any, or it may be write
>protected, or NTFS only, or whatever. Requiring the use of a
>hard drive is not acceptable.

Well, granted, lack of a hard drive would be a problem!

But with a NTFS system or a write protected system you should be able to copy the knoppix file under dos or windows.

For any other application, one CD should probably give you the tools you need to work with such a system.

We are merely talking about placing marginal applications on a second CD. We are not talking about the entire functionality of the base CD being compomised.

rossgbaker2
04-19-2004, 02:41 AM
Just a reminder. KDE 3.2.2 will be released within 24 hours. Will it compound this problem? I assume that it will be a minimal impact since it is largely bug fixes, but who knows?

chazmims
04-19-2004, 02:34 PM
any software i want to use i can apt-get. but moving from 2.4 to 2.6 kernel using apt-get has never worked for me smoothly. i dont care what software come with knoppix, i won't use most of it anyway. livecd is a nice feature, but i use knoppix because its the easiest way to get debian to my harddrive. i have a dvd burner and would use a dvd image if one were available.

hkfczrqj
04-19-2004, 03:37 PM
Just a reminder. KDE 3.2.2 will be released within 24 hours. Will it compound this problem? I assume that it will be a minimal impact since it is largely bug fixes, but who knows?

Now 3.2.2 is out in the wild. Take a look at the change log (http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelogs/changelog3_2_1_to_3_2_2.php). Just bug fixes... I guess the overall size hasn't changed much. So it will be nice to have 3.2.2 in knoppix. Now, the problem is still as tough as before, but not tougher...

Cheers...

gordon8452
04-19-2004, 06:34 PM
depending on when knoppix 3.4 is released it may e only 3.2.1 in there as it doesnt matter when kde does releases so much as it depends on when the release make it into debian testing, which currently kde 3.2.1 is still in there

Jack_
04-19-2004, 07:06 PM
Is this taking too long?

Knoppix is/was hot, Tom's Hardware posted reviews, mentioned on ScreenSavers, Trade shows etc., but now it's flatlined.

Maybe just release someting with KDE 3.2 at least.,
most just want to use it to do a HD install.

zenok
04-19-2004, 10:02 PM
I just want to say that this waiting time is totally ok ... as often mentioned was Knoppix 3.4 CeBIT only the first step to 2.6 and some Knoppix improvements. Now Klaus wants to add KDE 3.2 and improves the first bugs and problems to support better and better 2.6.

Now the problems with the packages is coming up - this already killed me in developing a new Kix Version. :? But more Features more Space needed so there is no way out and Klaus searches now the best way!

The only good way to tell Klaus your ideas - but please only when they are really helpfull is this way: http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermail/debian-knoppix/2004-April/date.html#start

PsaltyDS
04-19-2004, 10:40 PM
If we have to wait too long...

...it will be time to put 3.4 off some more, while we get the 2.7 kernel and KDE 4.0 ready!!!

:oops:

"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insuficiently advanced." - Geek's Corolary to Clarke's Law

MongooseNX
04-19-2004, 11:42 PM
Being a Linux novice (not quite a newbie :wink: ) I have a question.

So far the distro's I've tried(CeBit & Danix) with the 2.6 Kernel don't work on my laptop (HP Pavilion 4115). By don't work I mean locks up during boot.

Knoppix has always worked great for me. Should I assume that since the other distro's locked up that Knoppix 3.4 with the 2.6 Kernel will also lock up or am I underestimating Klaus's Kung-Fu :P

Thanks for any insight

Robert

A. Jorge Garcia
04-20-2004, 02:53 AM
OK, calm down guys and dolls. Give Klauss a break! Its not like we haven't benefitted from his magic for years now. Give him time, he and his team will release it when its ready!

Use 3.3 in the mean time, otherwise, break it up, nothing to see here...

Regards,
AJG

aay
04-20-2004, 03:33 AM
Well it looks as though LaTeX and Koffice may get removed. Some of you will be happy about this, but I'm sad to see Koffice going.

If you want to see what's holding up the 3.4 release, then you should look at the following link.

http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermail/debian-knoppix/2004-April/004988.html

patik
04-20-2004, 04:49 AM
Ooh, I'm looking forward to the "Lots of new usability features and gimmicks" more than anything :) I'm still on Windows primarily because of things like this. KDE 3.2.2 will be nice, too.

c123
04-20-2004, 09:53 AM
Well it looks as though LaTeX and Koffice may get removed. Some of you will be happy about this, but I'm sad to see Koffice going.

If you want to see what's holding up the 3.4 release, then you should look at the following link.

http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermail/debian-knoppix/2004-April/004988.html

Was just about to post the same link :) Well work is continuing (so a CD 3.4 should be out *soon* but-don't-hold-your-breath), and many will be happy to hear that an updated DVD isp lanned.

gromeo
04-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Great, anyone here, who is not holding the *sacred$ secret of when the iso's are goin' to be reseased? I'm expecting it to be soooooon .....

aay
04-20-2004, 02:53 PM
Great, anyone here, who is not holding the *sacred$ secret of when the iso's are goin' to be reseased? I'm expecting it to be soooooon .....

No one knows except Klaus. If you look at the date on his post, you'll see it's April 20th and he said it should be out in "a few days" so I'm hoping that it will be out by the end of the week. Nevertheless, note well his remark that "It's ready when it's ready."

Redhouse
04-20-2004, 09:47 PM
I was wondering whether wine would be included in 3.4 since it's not on the CeBIT remastered edition?
It would be great to have captive, and wine as well as all of the other goodies on the disc at once.

As for software to remove i can see that there are many redundant packages, ie web browsers, shells, editors.
Someone suggested removing Konqueror but I would put my vote against that! I use it to browse files and the web mainly, I don't even bother with epiphany or mozilla(unless I'm running pages with applets).

cybergeo3
04-21-2004, 03:31 AM
While I've noticed a few valid arguments on all sides, there is one application that has been completely overlooked. KAtomic. It is probably the only important application in knoppix. I know it's the reason i gave up on windows, it is simply incredible. F*k Frozen Bubble, KAtomic is all thats necessary. get rid of koffice, open office, mozilla, etcetera etcetera, just give me KAtomic. I mean have any of you guys tried it? thank god i can type all this out because I'm left speechless when thinking about it. I would get rid of whatever might keep KAtomic out of 3.4. Heck i would make a KAtomic only distro, get rid of everything but KAtomic, I realize ATI driver support is nice, but I say get rid of both kernel 2.4 and 2.6 if it would result in KAtomic making a return. My vote, for 3.4, strip it down to just a command line and KAtomic.

champagnemojo
04-21-2004, 06:10 AM
Well it looks as though LaTeX and Koffice may get removed. Some of you will be happy about this, but I'm sad to see Koffice going.

If you want to see what's holding up the 3.4 release, then you should look at the following link.

http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermail/debian-knoppix/2004-April/004988.html

KOffice is definitely vastly improved, but still seems to not be quite as compatible with MS documents as openoffice.org is. For instance, tables and figures in word documents don't seem to work too well in KOffice. For documents with just text it works well though.

Hasse
04-21-2004, 09:20 AM
/* Thinking out aloud */

Does anyone
- Run a web server from the CD-distro?
- Compile software from the CD-distro?

It is my guess
- Apache is run from a Hd install, probably with an internet connection and could be installed through apt-get.
- Development packages and gcc are not for newbies, who prefer apt-get, but rather experienced users on a Hd install.

Robin T Cox
04-21-2004, 10:30 AM
Does anyone
- Run a web server from the CD-distro?
- Compile software from the CD-distro?


YES!!

I'm running a Lucent WinModem with dial-up, and I need to compile the modem drivers. Without this, I can't connect to the Internet. :shock:

A. Jorge Garcia
04-21-2004, 12:49 PM
I use gcc from liveCD all the time and so do my students!

Regards,
AJG

PS Don't kill TEX!

cottmain
04-21-2004, 12:58 PM
Hi,
thank you for Knoppix. I love it. It's a great tool and a wonderful gift to anyone insterested in Linux. I give all my old versions away and have to start burning lots of current ones. Which brings me around to finding out about new versions. I am always pleased to get my e-mail notification from Kernel.org of the new kernel. Would this be something you might consider for Knoppix? (or have you already done so and I've missed it?)

bgis
04-21-2004, 04:53 PM
I see some people think the web browser should be replaced . Opera is small maybe an alternative.

hkfczrqj
04-21-2004, 05:13 PM
Does anyone
- Run a web server from the CD-distro?
- Compile software from the CD-distro?


YES!!

I'm running a Lucent WinModem with dial-up, and I need to compile the modem drivers. Without this, I can't connect to the Internet. :shock:
I also need gcc for the Lucent WM (I know that asking for the 2.6.x kernel headers is too much, but sooner or later it will happen :) ) and other stuff too, mostly in emergencies.

And NO, I don't need to run a web server. Maybe someone has to, but my imagination tries hard to find a reason to run it from knoppix.

Cheers...

Hellmark
04-21-2004, 05:49 PM
I use GCC quite a bit, so I wouldnt like to see that get canned.

As far as opera, I dont think Knoppix should replace Opensource freeware apps with adware supported apps.

OErjan
04-21-2004, 06:49 PM
i actually use gcc from cd to do things so... KEEP IT!

Rink
04-22-2004, 01:09 PM
Fabian,

Is all this any help?

How soon d'yer reckon before 3.4 is released?

Durand Hicks
04-22-2004, 05:17 PM
<Thinking aloud>

Wonder if it would be better if Klaus compiled the kernel source or headers into a .deb or (even better, a tarball) file that we could install ourselves thru a script in case we need to compile additional modules against the source or headers? The headers don't take much space when compressed into a deb. or even a tar file. With a script,we could untar the header to use for compiling stuff. This would be 2 tarfiles; one for 2.4 and one for 2.6 kernels. The source code might be a problem installing when running from a cd, but the headers shouldn't be a problem.

MongooseNX
04-22-2004, 05:52 PM
Does anyone
- Run a web server from the CD-distro?
- Compile software from the CD-distro?


The way I got turned onto Knoppix was in College in my CS classes. I would use Knoppix at home when I couldn't get to the college comptuer lab to do lab work. In fact in addition to gcc it would be nice to get the lam(mpi) libraries included at some point :-) (Are they included on the DVD version?)

So I think knoppix should definately be kept as College friendly as possible to help introduce a new generation to Linux.

Robert

nvgringo
04-22-2004, 06:49 PM
If I click on one of the links I get "No input file specified." maybe a good sign? or maybe I'm clicking the wrong link.

nvgringo
04-22-2004, 06:52 PM
http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
These are the links to the servers I was talking about

bamarob
04-22-2004, 07:36 PM
Interesting, nvgringo. I get the same when clicking on any US mirrors. I didn't try any others. Maybe they're moving some new ISO's to the mirrors. That'd keep us busy through the w/e, then we'd be asking when 3.5 was going to be available.

BR

Uvegeez
04-22-2004, 09:59 PM
I swear somebody posted a link to a utility that searches for duplicate files then replaces then with links to cut down on remastering size. If I'm not loosing my mind :twisted: , can some please repost the link?

hkfczrqj
04-22-2004, 10:34 PM
In fact in addition to gcc it would be nice to get the lam(mpi) libraries included at some point :-)

For what is worth, LAM and MPICH are included in the Quantian (http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian.html) live cd :)

Cheers...

A. Jorge Garcia
04-23-2004, 02:18 AM
Well, when I heard that LaTex might bite the dust in KNOPPIX I started looking at QUANTIAN. This liveCD is amazing. Its based on clusterKNOPPIX so you can setup an openMOSIX cluster in no time and has tons of math/science apps!

Regards,
AJG

hkfczrqj
04-23-2004, 05:06 AM
Well, when I heard that LaTex might bite the dust in KNOPPIX I started looking at QUANTIAN. This liveCD is amazing. Its based on clusterKNOPPIX so you can setup an openMOSIX cluster in no time and has tons of math/science apps

It's a cool cd. It has a more complete TeX system than the one on knoppix. And if you think that there is not enough software in a cd, this guy has a 'kitchen sink' dvd version of Quantian :) Anyway, I stick to the cd.

Cheers...

soulsurfer
04-23-2004, 12:03 PM
I dont know if everyone has seen the link which Fabian posted on another thread, but the CeBit remaster of 3.4 is here:
ftp://ftp.tu-chemnitz.de/pub/linux/knoppix-remastered/

alexlawrow
04-23-2004, 12:11 PM
I swear somebody posted a link to a utility that searches for duplicate files then replaces then with links to cut down on remastering size. If I'm not loosing my mind :twisted: , can some please repost the link?

You need to get hold of the script called "freedups". It replaces duplicate files with symlinks I think. Search for it online.

gromeo
04-23-2004, 12:11 PM
so, is that remastered edition the same, as the one we expect soon? I've got one like that and want to know, is that I've got the same as that, last posted? It's with orange wallpaper and it contains gimp 1.2 and koffice... so where's the difference between 3.3 and 3.4 ct?

gromeo
04-23-2004, 12:40 PM
HEEYYYYY the isos are being uploaded to the mirrors RIGHT NOW! Get there and shoot them with your mouses as fast as you can! I'm waitin' till they are ready!!!!!

Fabianx
04-23-2004, 01:56 PM
HEEYYYYY the isos are being uploaded to the mirrors RIGHT NOW! Get there and shoot them with your mouses as fast as you can! I'm waitin' till they are ready!!!!!

Nope, its not as far as I can see.

cu

Fabian

gromeo
04-23-2004, 02:36 PM
But there is no access to the mirrors, why - I think they are overloaded with uploading... there's no other reason that the mirrors are blocked... except - knopper.net site is broken, the links are broken, but I actually have connection with every server - but from different location. False alarm, everybody, the 3.4 isos are still not ready... wait, wait, wait... a week ot two... I'm tired of waitin'!! Can't Klaus come and tell us when it will be ready? Is this too hard?

Superstoned
04-23-2004, 02:59 PM
But there is no access to the mirrors, why - I think they are overloaded with uploading... there's no other reason that the mirrors are blocked... except - knopper.net site is broken, the links are broken, but I actually have connection with every server - but from different location. False alarm, everybody, the 3.4 isos are still not ready... wait, wait, wait... a week ot two... I'm tired of waitin'!! Can't Klaus come and tell us when it will be ready? Is this too hard?

hey, you know how life works here - its ready when its ready. not even a second faster. and no-one knows when its ready, only God. maybe. (probably not) ;-)

gromeo
04-23-2004, 03:30 PM
I do not agree. It's very... well, why? Why? Why? It's so sad... I have to chek every 5 minutes at the knoppix site! Is there any e-mail notification possible?

Howard
04-23-2004, 04:15 PM
Does anyone know what has happened to the links to the mirrors?

I only get "No input file specified" whichever link I try.

I have accessed the UK mirror directly and it appears to be fine, so what's happened to the links?

boehmb
04-23-2004, 04:26 PM
I get the same results here, but you can access the Knoppix ftp areas if you go through the main sites. Haven't found 3.4 yet...

MongooseNX
04-23-2004, 04:58 PM
For what is worth, LAM and MPICH are included in the Quantian (http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian.html) live cd :)


Thanks hkfczrqj, I'll have to give this Quantian a looking at. Maybe after they update to the new knoppix 3.4 kernel :-)

Robert

reub2000
04-24-2004, 07:19 PM
I hope this waiting is worth it.

Take out KOffice, I don't care. Just put in a kickass wallpaper. The latter versions of knoppix 3.3 had an okay wallpaper. I expect something like the 3.2 wallpaper!

cintra
04-24-2004, 07:38 PM
Have to do something while we are waiting, so I've ordered a copy of the Suse 9.1 LiveCD.. at least I have that to look forward to.

Distrowatch have a download link to it if you are interested..

regards

---------------------------------------------------
"If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!"

patik
04-24-2004, 09:24 PM
Take out KOffice, I don't care. Just put in a kickass wallpaper. The latter versions of knoppix 3.3 had an okay wallpaper. I expect something like the 3.2 wallpaper!
Yeah, if 3.4 doesn't have kickass wallpaper then I'm sticking with Windows for good!

MongooseNX
04-24-2004, 11:00 PM
:P

I'm still mad knoppix doens't have a paper-clip animation to help me.

:lol:
Robert

tommydl
04-25-2004, 07:43 AM
Do you know if 3.4 will include the new xfce4?

agent_smith
04-26-2004, 02:44 PM
Oh, it's so quiet - as Bjork used to sing... :)

Seems to me we are looking into 3.4 release sometime in MAY? Am I right Fabian?

BTW, for quite some time now in my home LUG forum there have been repetitive problems with Knoppix HDD install (2004-02-09 and 2004-02-16). The install script does not install ifupdown, whereas eth0 settings are lost every time one reboots the machine. After #apt-get install etherconf, the bug is gone (etherconf installs ifupdown as part of the install process), but newbies have a hard time going around this. Perhaps someone could check this befere 3.4 is out?

Best regards,
Smith

pv
04-26-2004, 07:01 PM
Does anyone know what has happened to the links to the mirrors?

The redirector is broken. You can still get to a mirror by editing the link and chopping off everything up to the actual mirror's site name. PV

saliola
04-26-2004, 07:28 PM
Here it is! The best way to make room on the Knoppix CD! Remove the bloat: KDE, Emacs, Mozilla. This would save tons of space!

Instead, include WindowMaker, OpenOffice, nano (www.nano-editor.org; why isn't this already in Knoppix?) and Firefox.

Note. I realize this is a fantasy request. If I have a few hours to spare one night, I will remaster Knoppix 3.4 into NoppiX = (no KDE; includes LaTeX). WindowMaker by default. Remastering is the number two reason KNOPPIX is great!

swooshtika
04-26-2004, 08:30 PM
I agree with most of the posters on this board; KOffice should be taken out as well as Mozilla in favor of Firefox and Thunderbird. I have to also agree that the games are useless and take up space.

firebyrd10
04-26-2004, 09:11 PM
I disagree and think that the games should be kept. espically enigma

reub2000
04-26-2004, 09:16 PM
I agree with most of the posters on this board; KOffice should be taken out as well as Mozilla in favor of Firefox and Thunderbird. I have to also agree that the games are useless and take up space.

Mozilla should stay as well as Firefox. What needs to be cut is every wm besides for kde. If someone wants gnome, that's what gnoppix is for.


Instead, include WindowMaker, OpenOffice, nano (www.nano-editor.org; why isn't this already in Knoppix?) and Firefox.

Nano needs to be included, and I'm guessing it's not that big. However, save your WindowMaker for your Noppix.


I'm still mad knoppix doens't have a paper-clip animation to help me.

:lol:

robwelch100
04-26-2004, 11:51 PM
This page started off real helpfull.

evermore
04-27-2004, 05:19 AM
fabianx, what are th chances of a bare-bones version of 3.4 being made available?

by bare-bones, i mean minimal cloop system; no k*, no x*, no OO, just a bootable cloop system. like the old model_k.

would it be difficult to make this available?

i think that if that were available, there would be spectacular progress in task-oriented flavors of knoppix. the strip down of a full knoppix is pretty time consuming, as i am sure that you know.

sineral
04-27-2004, 08:45 AM
how about this. knoppix comes as just the very basic knoppix-specific parts, ie hardware detection etc. along with this would be a new program that would display a list of free/open source software along with a short description of each and a link to the project's website. a person downloads this core setup, runs that program, selects what packages they want, then it fetches the packages from repositories and creates an .iso file ready for burning. this would kill all the kde vs gnome, cd vs dvd, whatever vs whatever birds with one stone. the iso maker would have multiple prefab sets of package selections a user could pick, ie a gnome knoppix, a kde one, a server one, office productivity one, game one, whatever. so downloading and burning knoppix would only take a couple mouse clicks longer than it currently does for most people.

sikah2000
04-27-2004, 09:44 AM
I would like to have a knoppix iso even if it's larger than 700 Mb because I use it on a DVD along with windows 98, 2000, xp, 2003 and the space is not a problem. So, if it is ready and over 700 Mb I still want it as it is. Maybe others will want it also (to put on a DVD or to put on an overburned CD - 800 Mb)
Thanks.

veuf
04-27-2004, 09:57 AM
It can be difficult to install packages because of dependencies. Also, settings are lost. For example try to apt-get open-office: Menu Fonts are small, Language packs??? ...

Please put stripped software and its dependent packages for download on the server (for easy installing via dpkg / apt-get)

yup
04-27-2004, 12:29 PM
Ok, I can understand the fact that deadlines slip away. But:
- 3.4 was supposed to be avail. immediately after CeBiT. For some reason, only a re-master of the CeBiT version emerged.
- Then, after CeBiT is was supposed to be avail in two weeks. It's been over a month.
- A week a go, Klaus himself said basically that he needs to get rid of 65 megs (or whatever) and the thing will be ready in "a few days".

Again, I can understand that (self-proclaimed !) ETAs slip and "it's ready when t's going to be ready". But not like this..

Common. Remove KOffice, LaTeX and whatnot and release it already !

(Frustrated new forum user. Btw, hello all :) )

gromeo
04-27-2004, 01:00 PM
Klaus is a liar!!!!
Klaus, aren't you? Prove it!!!