Is Knoppix Safe for beginners?

[counterzone]

Can I ask... Is knoppix safe to use, will it add any partitions or edit anything? I am 15, once ran knoppix when I messed up windows :lol: repartitioning my harddrive to install someother linux distribution :o (and may have used just before that, dunno). So I dont know if it will have any effect on my PC, will it? Does it affect anything? Cus Knoppix does rule! Way better than windows. Please Help,

Chris!

Oh yeah im running XP home atm if that helps (NTFS), so is saving configs there dangerous as well?

[Cuddles]

SAFE?

Define safe?

From the CD, saving NOTHING, like configs, persistant home, etc... yes, it is about as safe as anything can be on a PC.

NTFS - no way - don't save anything to your NTFS partition, that is definately not safe.

Hard drive installing Knoppix to your system, no , not safe - I speak from experiance here - Knoppix opens up a whole slew of "nasties" to a beginner - protection, permissions, the "dreaded" (i'm biased on this issue) apt-get, is not for the "faint-of-heart".

I used to work with the "beginner's" in Win98 support, and just having people call because they loaded there complete hard drive onto there desktop, for reasons I have no clue, these kinds of people could barely find the power switch, and were "let loose" by the "guy who installed there system" to just run it "nilly-willy" - not a horrible thought, unless you think that "we" were the ones they called when they "trashed" there system, "we" were the ones who had to deal with "I just turned it on this morning, and it doesn't work, no, it was running fine last night, and no, I didn't do anything" stuff.

In my own words, some people are running with a byte right shifted by one bit :!:

These are the "beginner's" I am speaking of, and with Linux/Debian/Red Hat/SuSE/Mandrake, etc... they have WAY too much power for there own good. It is a dissaster in waiting, IMHO.

I never realized just how much "power" Knoppix gives a user, until I trashed my own system, three times now, and didn't have a clue what I did wrong. I did what I knew I needed to do, and the way your "supposed" to do it, and ended up reinstalling Knoppix, from scratch, three times now. (currently, I am trying to salvage my system to save me from having to do a fourth)

Linux is designed for a "techie", or a "geek", or a person who is "intamately" familiar from the inside out, of there own system - add into this - is VERY familiar with there OS as well. Someone who reads OS manuals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and curls up to a good "Linux" publication for sleeping. That is what Linux is all about.

I have been running Knoppix, hard drive installed, now for more than six months, and I still don't have a clue. I rely heavily on this forum for assistance, and guidance, through the miriad of problems that not only I find, but that find me, and stalk me out.

So, I am sorry to say, if you are looking to "provide" Knoppix to a "beginner", you better be prepared for billions of support calls, either that, or they better be a "permanent" resident in this forum. Yes, even though I am a "six month user/admin" of Knoppix on my own system, I am but a wee newbie still, and a constant poster to this forum on "what next broke" on my own system.

But to answer your question again, Knoppix Live CD is SAFE, until you get the bright idea to "jump feet first into the deep end" of installing and running it - thats when you can get into trouble.

Just my 2 cents worth,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

So how do I make sure it doesnt save anything to the hd? When I open open office will it save temperary "saved" files or will any program save "temperary" files. Damn NTFS. Why do microsoft want to make life as complicated as possible. The only way I can be sure is to just take out my hard drive to run it. But that defeats the object of a live CD a bit. hmmm, tuffie. btw, any one like playing Counter-Strike? Oh and can anyone help with the problem about avoid saving files? Maybe in the next version they will make it safe for NTFS users to use knoppix safely and freely.

Thanks again,
Chris!

[zentu]

By Default ALL drives on your system are marked as read only, and you have to manually change it to a writable setting. The files that you save in knoppix (unless you save them to a thumbdrive, CD, Floppy, etc) are only saved into your memory, so when the system goes down, all of that data is lost, but it won't save anything to any where that is damaging.

P.s. the new version of knoppix is supposed to allow NTFS writing due to the fact that it is implemented in a way that allows it to use the windows drivers for it.
Note: (not mine from an aquantance at my LUG, who is a coder on that project) Currently, you are able to write to NTFS drives as long as the file length stays exactly the same (way to much of a hassle, so don't bother until you are a master of Linux and Windows).

[Cuddles]

CounterZone,

I guess you missread my reply, or I didn't explain it well enough, my fault...

Knoppix will not save anything unless you tell it to.

Knoppix's Live CD will create a RAM DISK in memory, and use that for any files, and the OS, nothing should "touch" any drive you have on your system...

Only one thing will cause Knoppix's Live CD to "ever" touch a hard drive, is if you don't have enough memory for a ram disk - in that case - it might ask you to allow Knoppix to place a SWAP DISK file on a hard drive, so it can use the file for lack of memory - that is all.

The Knoppix Live CD, that is using the CD to boot Knoppix with, is VERY SAFE. The designers of the "Live CD" considered the CD to be extremely safe, to the point that even hard drives it detects on the system, are by default, mounted as READ ONLY. Not even Windows does that, as if they would ever release a OS that could even run off a CD.

I consider the Live CD to be safer than abstanance from sex, so, that is pretty much as safe as safe can get - with the CD, you are free from viris attacks, worms, intrusion attacks, etc... because the best any "nasty" thing can hope for is attaching to the system files, which, are stored in memory, and flushed, and reinstalled from the read only CD, that is way safe. Problems are when you want to "change" something, then you need to save, mount read/write hard drives, etc... in most of those cases, something "can" get in and attach.

Running the Live CD is pretty much as follows: Booting causes a ram disk to be created, OS and configs are then loaded to the ram disk (memory), when you shutdown, or reboot, the memory is cleared, and thus, nothing is maintained from your boot, other than what is on the CD (which should be viri, worm, and such, clean).

The nice thing with the Live CD is, if you trash your system, OS, (Knoppix boot that is), when running Knoppix booted off the CD, you just down the system, and boot off the CD again - nothing permanent - and if you don't save, or "touch" any of your drives, remove the CD and boot back to what you had booted before - no harm done.

The Live CD is safe, after installing it to your hard drive, then the "unsafe" part gets introduced - if you open your hard drives and begin "saving" things, or configurations, etc.. then it begins to get "unsafe". But, the Live CD alone, it very safe.

Hope this helps,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

Thanks loads! Everybody who is involved/uses linux seems to be really nice! I got 3 responces in less than an hour! Wow! I would be waiting at least 3-5 days with microsoft. But im still too nervous to use it. Dont know why. Its just when i knackered the old harddrive me mum went up the wall cus her Manchester Business School Masters MBA work (or something) was on it. And she had been saving her work for it on it for 3 years. She only had one year to go. Luckilly she had already printed some of it out. But... was I in trouble. She made me sit by the PC and try to fix it for hours, even though it was plain to see that the entire harddrive was currupt. So... I then used knoppix to try and recover her files. I managed to retreive some of my doctor who episodes from an intact partition and Roller coaster tycoon 2, but..... couldnt get anything off the C partition which was the currupt one. So I borrowed a spair 4gig hd from my uncle, installed XP onto it and (again) couldnt seem to get anything off it. So.... I downloaded a tool from the internet that lets you rawly see the harddrive in hexidecimal values and small text strings. I spent hours going through a 17gig harddrive for individual email addresses of my mums freinds/contacts (i was never going to be able to recover entire files such as docs or other such office files.) I found only about 10 addresses. :shock: . So.... thats my life story and why im too scared to do anything now. I think forget about OS's and stick to php for now! :D

Thanks Loads!

Chris!!!

[OErjan]

only two things i know/suspect to be damaged by knoppix are a (1) monitor (see this posting http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10079& ) and a floppydrive. actually the floppydrive was more operator error but... he forced linux to make 1.74M floppies, the floppy never recovered.
the monitor MIGHT have been on its way prior to knoppix but...

[firebyrd10]

I have to agree with the posts above. Knoppix is about the safest OS you can get.



Not even Windows does that, as if they would ever release a OS that could even run off a CD.

as for a bootable windows cd you could try BartPE. Not offically a windows prodouct it can be quite usefull with its ability to fully read/write to any NTFS drive. (espially usefull for defrag. I don't have the address for the site currenlty so your going to have to google it. Aslso your going to need some files off of the windows install cd. (or install partition is your useing something like a HP which has a recovery partition.)

[Cuddles]

OErjan,

Well, yeah, I agree with you on those issues, but, those exact same issues could be easily duplicated through Windows, just as easily.

In Windows98 support, I had "way" too many people calling because there monitors weren't working - only to find they were "forcing" a video driver into Windows that they didn't have. Usual response to finding out that they didn't have "Spuer-Duper-Wiz-Bang-MegaMemory-High-End Video Card" installed, and simply a "ATI Basic 2 meg video card" was "Gee, I want that one instead" - forcing hardware to do things they were not "designed" to do, can cause any hardware to fail, under the "right" condiftions.

If you try to "force" a monitor to behave "way beyond" its capability, is just asking for trouble - I have a "old" monitor that can ONLY go up to 800 x 600 resolution, forcing it to go higher, only causes refresh and sync issues, i.e. non viewable screens - if that continued for too long, I think it could damage a monitor.

As for the floppy, yes, that could do some damage - I knew of a shareware program that could "hack" your command.com, back in the DOS days, so you could create "non-standard" formatted floppies - if you try to get a floppy "stepper motor" to do things they were not made to do, trouble is surely going to follow - as stated the "warning" with this shareware program reported.

I would also like to add one other "that I know of" issue. I saw this program somewhere, and never explored it any further, I think it was a Windows program, and of course, shareware... But, this program would allow you to change the RPM's of your hard drives. Again, as I said above, in this case, forcing a motor to "spin" faster than it was designed, could be a problem waiting to happen.

In some cases, like forcing a "burning" program for a CD Writter, to save at 24x instead of its recommended 4x (if it is actually a 4x speed drive), will probably only make "Digital Coasters", but with monitors, hard drives, and floppy drives, forcing them beyond what they are capable of doing, can cause problems. And, as I mentioned above, forcing a piece of hardware to use a driver that was not "designed" for it, could have same issues...

firebyrd10,
My statement still stands, sorry, but if it still requires any form of Windows to be installed on a hard drive, it isn't a "Live CD", IMHO.

In your deffense though, not even Knoppix's Live CD can do "Windows" as a "Live CD", it still requires "Windows" to be required as installed on your hard drive. But, thats just symantics.

I guess I should have said: Microsoft OS, instead of Windows OS. Even with all the problems of NTFS, I still think M$ make a ground-breaking move to using it for its file system structure. FAT, and any versions after its "initial" founding, is still just FAT. It was used way back when DOS first came out, and has simply been "Band-Aide" 'ed since then. Extremely "old" tech, IMHO. (even if the NTFS is a problem in Knoppix/Linux, it still stands as a "Next Generation", and "evolutionary" file system, and I liken NTFS to FAT, as I would see using rocks for building tools back in the cave man days, to using tools made from titanium now. (evolution)

Lastly, CounterZone,
If you, or your mom, is concerned about the "safety" of Knoppix on your mom's "business" computer, why not fork-out some moola for your own? Hit up EBay, can't be too expensive to find a computer that can manage the "minimum requirements" for Knoppix?

Here is what a "minimum" Computer "needs" to hard drive install (fully installed on the hard drive) from the documentation I have:


Pentium-class processor, preferably 300MHz or higher
64MB RAM
At least a 3 GB hard drive, or a partition of this size
And lastly, a Knoppix CD

I would also add into this, you should probably have a CD Drive, or a way to get the Knoppix CD "image" onto your system, either by the "poor mans install", or a physical CD Drive. Also, a faster processor means better performance in many games, or the operation of the OS, more memory is always better, and lastly, a larger hard drive is always better. But thats the minimum.

I am quite sure EBay, or even a friend, is trying to get rid of a system like this, because many of these kinds of systems are hitting the "door stop" catagory, or junk pile, due to increasing requirements for Windows versions of OS's. I even saw a "complete" system, being "given" away at the local library, a complete "server" class system, in fact, because they "upgraded" there servers to a new version of Windows. "It" couldn't handle the "new" Windows OS they got, so they were giving it away for $10. If I'd had known of "Knoppix" back then, it would have probably worked well with it. Heck, the monitor looked "beat up", but, was dirt-cheap for a complete system, even if I would have had to buy a new monitor for it.

zentu,
I think NTFS is going to plague Linux for a while, I think the file system is "protected" under law by Microsoft, I think, and therefor, unless someone can create a "emulator" or "hack" version, without duplication of this coding, it will continue to plague Linux OS's. Only time will tell, but I have heard that, as you said, they are "breaking" through some of its (NTFS) abilities. Again, as you said, not sure if I would try it out on my Windows installed (running) system of a NTFS hard drive, I know how "tempormental" Windows is on someone "else" touching its drives, but it is good they (Linux developers) are making some progress on the issues of "NTFS drives / don't touch" stuff.

Enuf said, I'm gone,
Cuddles

[OErjan]

i have it running with icewm and 2.6.5on a p100 with 72Mbram. kde wont work well on it nor will openofice, so i stick with mc, firefox, centericq, elvis, and xmms (yeah i know it is too much for the system but...)

[zentu]

Hey, Counterzone, if you have an issue with the HDD being possibly written to, just unplug your HDD power cables (easy way) or the ribbon cables that connect them either at the HDD or the Mobo... Personally, as long as you don't activly go through and try to change files you will be fine.

As far as NTFS, the project that my buddy was working on has all but died, since people have found a more stable way of implementing it, albeit much slower, and Klaus had said that he was planning on adding support for this method on 3.4, at release more than likely. How this method works is it emulates all that the NTFS 'driver' needs and then lets it do all of the work like it was in windows, so essentially it is emulation, but it is not a real emulator, since it is more like wine.

[counterzone]

Back to Cuddles's Point on getting a new system, I have an old one with 64 meg ram, 4 gig hd and a 4 meg matrox mistique video card. Without the harddrive install, would I be able to run knoppix off the CD with the desktop (not sure what its called in linux, KDE??? Gnome???) would this work? i would get more ram for it except It takes 2 types, the old type wich only goes up to 32 meg cards (of which I can fit 2) and cant remeber the name (not sd or ddr) and another type of which is a bit longer (i have none in as i am using the old stuff) and I dont know what goes into it (i know its ram.... I think...), so also if you can help me on guessing what type of ram I have as well (the unknown one).


Thanks again!
Chris!!!!

[Cuddles]

CounterZone,

It should, you might want the hard drive formatted as FAT, either using Windows to format it, or a DOS, not the NTFS - that way, if you need the swap file added for the memory issue, it is already ready for it. Video sounds good, drive sounds good, and the memory sounds good. If you are just going to use the CD, and not install the Operating System, I would think the hard drive wouldn't be necessary, but it can't hurt to have it, even if it doesn't need it for the swap. Just pop the CD into the drive, boot the system, get into your BIOS settings screen, and ensure the BIOS is going to try and boot from the CD first, possibly floppy second, and if it has a third option, I like to set it to the hard drive, that way you are pretty much covered for having to change your BIOS in the future.

Try it, it has to be a lot safer than having to deal with your mom, and the paranoia of accidently trashing her system :D

Cuddles

[zentu]

Aside:You probably have FastPage Ram or EDO (Extended Data Out).

Yes, you can run it, but you may want to use another WM (window Manager) like Flux, or another small one (memory footprint size), but you should have NO problem running it, beyond it being slow... Infact, IMO this is what linux is great for, all of those older machines that are stuck running an old, buggy, unsecure os *cough cough* windows 95, 98 *cough* excuse me, must be sick... :lol:

See what most people don't realize, is that if you get good with the command lines in any operating system, is that you are better off, and able to due things faster. (don't belive me, format 2+ a disks in the GUI of windows and time it, then try it in the shell, it is about 1.5 times faster. learned that when I had to format 20 diskettes for a Novell 4.11 class on windows 95 as a teacher's assistant, 2 times in one semester. end rant) So if you really have speed issues, then use knoppix as knoppix 2 for run level 2, then you can boot into a gui as needed, you just need to check your settings first in your Xfree86 Config, but you won't be able to get all of the prettiness unless you are in a X11 (i.e. Xfree86) environment (i.e. KDE, Gnome, Window Maker, Elightenment, BlackBox, FluxBox). The imprortant thing that you need to use a linux box is time, if you screw up, you are just learning, so keep on going.


/that was real long winded

[firebyrd10]

OErjan,


firebyrd10,
My statement still stands, sorry, but if it still requires any form of Windows to be installed on a hard drive, it isn't a "Live CD", IMHO.

In your deffense though, not even Knoppix's Live CD can do "Windows" as a "Live CD", it still requires "Windows" to be required as installed on your hard drive. But, thats just symantics.


Cuddles

Well in truth nothing has to be installed. YOu just need the i386 files off the disk. be that the install disk or recovery partition. as for running the program. I don't know if wine will run it or not. plan to test that out later. but that aside. why would you want a bootable windows cd with out windows anyway? it mainly a recovery tool. or utility tool.

[counterzone]

So.... Just putting the disk and booting it runnning a few programs will not touch the hard drive in any way? I am running 2 ntfs partitions and one fat. If I save anything to the fat partition will it affect anything? And... This SWAP DISK file you talk about, does it get deleted when the system shuts down? Does it affect anything while having 2 ntfs partitions and one fat? Please help (again lol)

Thanks,
Chris!!!!!

[Cuddles]

CounterZone,


So.... Just putting the disk and booting it runnning a few programs will not touch the hard drive in any way? I am running 2 ntfs partitions and one fat. If I save anything to the fat partition will it affect anything? And... This SWAP DISK file you talk about, does it get deleted when the system shuts down? Does it affect anything while having 2 ntfs partitions and one fat? Please help (again lol)

(1) Running Knoppix (off the CD only) will NOT touch any of your drives.
(2) Saving "something" to the FAT partition will NOT affect anything, unless you save a file that Windows uses, or overwrite a file that is part of Windows. If the file you are saving is a Knoppix file, if it is "stored" on the FAT partition, it should not effect Windows because it was not part of Windows in the first place. Now, this doesn't mean to start "tinkering" with the Windows OS files, like msdos.sys, io.sys, or even command.com, (in Windows that uses FAT, OS specific boot files), this kind of "tinkering is surely going to "effect" Windows.
(3) The SWAP DISK file is just a file, named something like knoppix.swp or something, its just a file, Windows doesn't know about it, nor has a clue what it is, and can easily be deleted when you are in Windows, its just a file in Windows.
(4) No, Knoppix will leave it on the partition, that way, if you reboot Knoppix again, the swap file is still there to be re-used. Knoppix isn't sure if it should delete the file. Knoppix doesn't know if you are going to be booting back into Knoppix again, and if it is, doesn't know if that swap file won't be necessary on the next boot. It's just a regular file to any other OS, only Knoppix knows what to do with it, and if it needs it again, and it has been deleted, it will simply re-create the file from scratch the next time.
(5) Knoppix will not touch any drive on the system, unless you tell it to, period. Everything from the OS, to its settings, configurations, and devices that it auto-detects, are all saved on the memory ram disk - nothing touches the hard drives, unless you tell it to.

Sounds like you are a little concerned about this "corruption" thing, huh??? Just think of it this way, CounterZone, Knoppix will not touch anything on your system, hard drives, CDROM drives, etc... unless YOU tell it to, excluding the CDROM device that you use to boot Knoppix on, thats all.

If you ask Knoppix to open one of your hard drives, it will attempt to open it, but by default, it is in READ ONLY mode. Knoppix will not open your hard drive, unless you tell it to. If you ask Knoppix to save a file, it will ask you were to save it, you can then tell Knoppix where to save it, it won't save the file to someplace you don't tell it to save it, period.

The hardest thing to realize is that when you tell Knoppix to save something, most of the time, that location is going to be the RAM DISK, which is not permanent. If you make a change in how you view your desktop, it is not on a "physical" disk, it is being stored on the RAM DISK, and when you reboot, everything will be like it WAS before (unless you tell Knoppix to save these changes on a "physical" disk, like "Save Configuration", or "Create Persistant Home", in which cases, Knoppix will ask you where you want these things saved to).

Hope this helps,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

That is amzing help, im really really sorry but one last question the swap file, it saves it to the harddrive, but if it saves it to the ntfs partition wont this mess things up since this can cause curruption. will it ask me where to save it? And finally, will I safely be able to save the config to a floppy? Im really sorry about all the questions, i just wonna be sure im not going to get "Bo*****ed" for messing something up by me mum (ps tis my own pc).

[Cuddles]

CounterZone,

Knoppix will ask you where you want to save the SWAP file, and yes, if you tell it to save the file to a NTFS drive, I think it would botch things up, so, I would be sure you don't tell it to save to a drive that is in NTFS format. You can save configurations to a floppy drive, they will easily fit on a floppy disk. A persistant home, I don't think will fit on a regular floppy disk, though. If you want to set up a persistant home, that is something that should be stored on something that can contain more data, like a memory stick, ZIP, JAZZ, removable hard drive, or a FAT drive. A persistant home would be where "anything" you change, or save, like the save on the RAM DISK would be, but instead, it stores to this "persistant home" area, and when rebooting to Knoppix, it would search for this "home" area, and use it instead of the RAM DISK, only the OS and its files would be stored on the RAM DISK then.

In fact, a floppy disk for the configuration data is a perfect media for saving onto, if I remember right, when you ask Knoppix to save configuration data to a device, I think the "default" highlighted location, is the floppy drive. So, in this case, not even Knoppix defaults to saving to a hard drive, but to the floppy drive.

Hope this helps,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

And will the drive letters be the same as windows in knoppix? for example my fat partition is E:\, so when it asks me to save the swap file will I just put E in or something? And if I choose to delete this file, can I delete it from in windows? Finally, will it ask me to save the file every time I boot up, or will it detect in and use the one already there?

Thanks,
Chris!!!

[Cuddles]

Sorry to say, but, in Linux, there are no drive letters, only devices...

You need to know a few things about your computer system to understand device naming in Linux...

Your FIRST device is going to be /dev/hda[number]
Your SECOND device is going to be /dev/hdb[number]
THIRD will be /dev/hdc[number]
...etc...

For my system, I have a hard drive then a DVD drive, on my second IDE cable, I have a hard drive and a CD-RW drive.

My devices are as such:
/dev/hda1 -=- is my first hard drive device
/dev/hdb1 -=- is my DVD device
/dev/hdc1 -=- is my second hard drive device - first partition
/dev/hdc2 -=- is my second hard drive device - second partition
and lastly...
/dev/hdd1 -=- is my CD-RW device...

my floppy device is, pretty much the same as anyone else's, as
/dev/fd0

the numbering scheme is kinda easy to realize, once you know how your drives are partitioned, and the order of the devices on the "physical" cabling of your drives.

Primary "Master" device is going to be hda
Primary "Slave" device is going to be hdb
Secondary "Master" is going to be hdc
and Secondary "Slave" is going to be hdd

Linux sets up its devices by "physical" cabling, not like the "other" OS, which takes its devices from the cabling and BIOS. Knoppix will always use the same naming for its devices, even if you change your BIOS, becuase to change the names in Linux, requires changing physical cabling changes.

In Windows, you can "fake" windows into thinking the C: is actually the D:, and the D: is the C:, by changing the BIOS to boot either the second hard drive, or the first hard drive. In Linux, this trick doesn't work, becuase Linux goes off the cable order of the devices, which won't change unless you change the order of your drive cables.

Any device in Linux is going to be /dev/[something]1 -=- i.e. /dev/hda1, /dev/hdb1, etc...

On hard drives, you can have multiple partitions, either primary, secondary, etc... (where is Stephen when I need him :?:)

the first partition on a device is going to be "1", the next primamry partition is going to be "2", etc...
a secondary partition on the same device, I think its called a "logical" partition, I think the numbers start at "5" and go up by one...

my second hard drive, see above, has two PRIMARY partitions on it, so they are device labeled: /dev/hdc1 and /dev/hdc2, if I had a third "logical" partition on this same device, it would be labeled /dev/hdc5, and another would be /dev/hdc6, etc...

(did I do good Stephen :?:)

After you get Knoppix up and running, you might want to run "cfdisk" on your system to view the order of things - this command would be run in a command line interface - or CLI - or the same icon along the bottom of the screen that looks like a screen with a shell in front of it.

To find out the order of how your devices are labeled, you can also run "dmesg" from this same CLI - scroll up to near the top of the output and you will see what devices were found, what they are, and what labeling they were given. You will be asked, when you are saving anything, which "device" you want to save to. In my case, I get a list of the following:

/dev/hdc1
/dev/hda1
/dev/hdc2
/dev/fd0

here is a "snippet" output of my output for dmesg, showing my devices, and what the labels are for them:


cuddles@Polaris:~$ dmesg

[...snip...]

Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M
FDC 0 is a post-1991 82077

[...snip...]

hda: HDS722540VLAT20, ATA DISK drive
hdb: SONY DVD-ROM DDU1611, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive
hdc: SAMSUNG SP0802N, ATA DISK drive
hdd: OPTORITECD-RW CW5201, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive

[...snip...]

hda: attached ide-disk driver.
hda: host protected area => 1
hda: 80418240 sectors (41174 MB) w/1794KiB Cache, CHS=5005/255/63
hdc: attached ide-disk driver.
hdc: host protected area => 1
hdc: 156368016 sectors (80060 MB) w/2048KiB Cache, CHS=9733/255/63
ide-cd: passing drive hdb to ide-scsi emulation.
ide-cd: passing drive hdd to ide-scsi emulation.
hdb: attached ide-scsi driver.
hdd: attached ide-scsi driver.
Partition check:
hda: hda1 hda3
hdc: hdc1 hdc2

[...snip...]

SCSI subsystem driver Revision: 1.00
scsi0 : SCSI host adapter emulation for IDE ATAPI devices
Vendor: SONY Model: DVD-ROM DDU1611 Rev: GYS1
Type: CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02
Vendor: OPTORITE Model: CD-RW CW5201 Rev: 160E
Type: CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02
Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
Attached scsi CD-ROM sr1 at scsi0, channel 0, id 1, lun 0
sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 0x/40x cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray
Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.12
sr1: scsi3-mmc drive: 52x/52x writer cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray

[...snip...]

One special note here, even though my CDROM devices are on hdb and hdd, they get passed to a SCSI controller for support, this is done ALL THE TIME, with Knoppix - so my real devices for my DVD are /dev/sr0 and my CDRW is actually /dev/sr1

Take note of what the device names are for my setup, and how they are described, this will help you locate and decide on the labeling of your own devices on your system.

(GOD) I hope this helps, (STEPHEN HELP :!:)
Cuddles

[Bernd Blaauw]

Bart Lagerweij's WinXP Live-cd called BartPE, can be built when you have WinXP and/or Win2003 server, and his building tool called PEbuilder.

it's a complete livecd, and thus can access any NTFS and FAT filesystem.
No need for an installed Windows on harddisk.

Knoppix will have Captive-NTFS, which encapsulates the win2000 NTFS-driver with other files that it needs, like WINE also does.

I don't know if Captive-NTFS already works when you haven't booted the GUI (KDE) yet.
It would be usefull when the required Windows files can be placed in the KNOPPIX folder on the Knoppix cdrom (when doing a remaster).

the best way would be:
kernel -> drivers -> load Captive from /KNOPPIX
( -> mount harddisk partition RW -> put swapfile there ) ->
boot into Xfree86 + KDE

and then it would be possible to place your swapfile on an NTFS partition before loading into graphical mode (KDE).
however it requires mounting the partition as read/write.

don't suppose there's a possibility to "mount harddisk partition RW for swapfile only, mount it RO for rest"

[counterzone]

hmmmm.....

I have 3 partitions:
A:\ Floppy (hehe)
C:\ Windows - NTFS
D:\ Just other files - NTFS
E:\ Supposed to be recover stuff but doesnt matter - FAT32
F:\ DVD
G:\ CDRW

what letters would these be then? Man windows seems easy....


/dev/hda1 -=- is my first hard drive device
/dev/hdb1 -=- is my DVD device
/dev/hdc1 -=- is my second hard drive device - first partition
/dev/hdc2 -=- is my second hard drive device - second partition

[Cuddles]

CounterZone:


hmmmm.....

I have 3 partitions:
A:\ Floppy (hehe)
C:\ Windows - NTFS
D:\ Just other files - NTFS
E:\ Supposed to be recover stuff but doesnt matter - FAT32
F:\ DVD
G:\ CDRW

what letters would these be then? Man windows seems easy....

Assuming your BIOS is not "switched" on me here, and that your C:, D:, and E: drives are actually the same hard drive device, broken down into three "drives"... I don't have a clue how Windows[whatever version it is], broke down your drives here... So, don't hold me to this... But...

I would guess your devices would look like this:
A: = /dev/fd0
C: = /dev/hda1
D: = either /dev/hda2 or /dev/hda5
E: = either /dev/hda2 or /dev/hda3, or /dev/hda6
F: - either /dev/sr0 or /dev/sr1
G: = either /dev/sr1 or /dev/sr0

Not being able to "physically" look at how your drives are "plugged into" the cables and on your motherboard, I can't be precise here. Also, not being familiar with how your drives have been partitioned, by looking in cfdisk, or on Windows, fdisk, I don't know precise either...

If I was going to "guess" what device your FAT partition was going to "show up" on, I would say, the LARGEST NUMBER for the device /dev/hda -=- if the devices you have listed for your drives comes out like - hda1 hda2 hda3 - I would think the hda3 would be the FAT, if the devices come out like - hda1 hda5 hda6 - then hda6 would be my bet...

Since you can't be sure of the devices, I would suggest that when you boot Knoppix, if it asks to install a swap file, say no, let it boot up, find out your device names, reboot, and then reply to yes on the swap file, and use the device for the FAT....

And yes, if Knoppix boots up, it does a scan for a swap file, if you have a persistant home, it can scan for that as well. Use the following cheatcodes on the boot: prompt to tell Knoppix - while it is booting - to look for these:

boot: knoppix myconfig=scan home=scan

note: don't enter the "boot:" thats the prompt, and if you have either one of these, just drop the other one from the command line. You can also press F2 when you get that boot prompt to see other cheatcodes to use, as well...

Hope this helps,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

well, I thank you very much and I will try this out! I will feedback afterwards. I think this information may be useful to other n00bs such as my self.

Thanks again :D !!!!!!
Chris!!!!!! :D

[Cuddles]

My pleasure CounterZone,

I am glad I could help out :D

And, yes, be sure to post back, good or bad, I think anybody could benefit from more input...

Most of us, including myself, are just shy of saying we are noobies at this, some of us have some answers, and we try "real" hard to help, some are "Head Master Guru's" in this (Stephen? You listening?), but since this is an "open forum" and we all are volunteers at this, we are "all" learning more... (I admit to it, others might not...) I am always learning new things, and new ways of doing things in this OS, most of my posts are, usually, HELP type ones though...

Again, glad I could help,
Cuddles

[firebyrd10]

Exactly don't be shy. asking your problem might help someone else with the same.

Espically me. When I find something new I have to understand it almost completly or I go insane. (for example see my posts on SSH and X11) This forum does help. Thoguh I'm also trying to fight back that feeling also. :wink:

[bob58]

Hello All....very interesting posts here. I would like to add my 2 cents worth and I hope its OK in this forum. I see alot of posts from people saying that Knoppix "won't boot" on their computer, or it "locks up". A bunch of problems that we all try to solve for one another. This brings up a point that I read earlier about Linux being for "tinkerers, geeks, and people who read linux manuals for breakfast and settle down to a good Linux book at bedtime." After being into Knoppix for about 3 or 4 months now, I have to agree. It is fun. And it is cool, the whole idea of the live CD. But what I would like to see, is if people are really interested in Linux, Knoppix or whatever flavor, if they try the live cd and want to install on HD, then could some people make a standardized list of KNOWN working hardware, from modem to monitor all the way around. That way, serious people could build their own machines which will run Linux with no problems. Obviously there are tons of people running linux with no trouble. The only trouble I have on my machine is the built-in sound isnt supported, but does work. No stereo, just mono. I plan to install a LINUX supported sound card soon. I understand everyones configurations are not the same, but a standardized list of hardware in a machine that will work with linux would be good for all the serious users and people who really want to get away from Micro$oft products. I guess everyone cant expect the Knoppix live CD to work, boot on EVERYONES computer. It sure is one fine CD though! I have it installed on my 2nd HDD and love it. Of course I have different opinions for apt-get and a few other things! With the price of PC parts it shouldnt be too much trouble to build your own machine, if you are a serious Linux user. Or get a friend to build you one. What motherboards are Linux compatible? What Monitors? Just compile a list of the compatible hardware and either build or replace parts in an existing machine. I dont know, it just seems to me with the large amount of people into KNOPPIX now, and the price of computer components, most of us should all consider either rebuilding to KNOPPIX/LINUX standards or replacing individual parts. What do you think? am I crazy???? :shock:

[Cuddles]

Bob58,

Good point, like a "who's who" of Linux, kinda thing...

Hmmmm, I know they have a "big" site on WinModems, and the doc files here are numerous, but one big list, like a list you can take down to your computer manufacturer and say: "Build me one of those!" [?]

You know, from what I know, its not a list of what works, but more likely, a list of what won't. Basically, I think of Winmodems in this catagory. You can get some, if not all, of the Winmodems to work, but not as good as they were "supposed" to in Windows. This is usually resolved by getting a modem that doesn't require Windows to work, like a hardware modem. They can have just as much "functionality" as there counterparts, but will easily plug 'n' go on a Linux OS.

As for monitors, hmmmm, they usually work, its only the video card that tells it what to do, so the video cards are the issue, not the monitors. A monitor does what the video card tells it to do, which either does it, or complains, and the video card is only doing what the operating system is telling it to do, which either can do it, or complains.

Motherboards, now we are talking techie here. I don't go around looking at peoples motherboards, maybe there BIOS, but I don't get inside the case when I want to boot an OS. So, whatever the OS, or the BIOS tells me the motherboard is, I have to agree with it. As for the CPU, I did buy a seperate motherboard and CPU combination, so I am very familiar with the CPU I have installed - some of the "standard" "Windows" people may not be that "techie", and would simply respond, "its a fast one!", or "I know its a new one!". This kind of response can also come from asking what kind, or size of hard drive they have, or the amount or type of RAM they have, etc...

For some people, if it isn't plainly labled on the "outside" of the case, or monitor, they have no clue what it is. They only know, it worked in Windows, or that it was just bought.

For these reasons, are why I say "techie" or "geek", not the physical attributes of them, but the fact they can probably find the CPU inside there computer case, or where the RAM is, or have "tinkered" with the cabling inside the case. Maybe, even replaced a card, or device, inside the computer. You have these types in the Windows World as well, but, more often than not, these are the people people call when they need help, or "something" isn't working as they expected. In the Windows World, most of the "techies" are viewed as the "grunts", who delve into the depths of computers, and possibly talk binary to each other. Whereas, in the Linux World, you are almost given the title for just booting the operating system (heck, you almost have too be, if you want to understand what is going on).

I never knew of Google, or SourceForge, until coming over the wall to Linux. Before that, it was just MSN, Microsoft, Lycos, or Yahoo. Now, I seem to only use google and sourceforge. Not so much for like, but for need. Most replies in "help" posts, usually fall back to these sites, like "have you googled?", or "have you checked for it on SourceForge?" - so the need arose for "bookmarks" on these sites, at least on my running Mozilla.

A list, a "common" list, would be a good idea, but maybe not on the stuff that works, but more along the lines of what stuff to stear clear of. Like, don't buy this! list... I not only think it would be a benifit, but be easier to not only keep updated, but to walk into a computer dealer and say, "I don't want any of these things on my computer!"

When I bought my new computer, which was being "designed" to only run Linux, Knoppix to be specific, I had, pretty much, a list of things I wanted "standard", and ideas of what I didn't want. Some of the ideas were based on "Windows specific" hardware, like modems, which, unfortunately, I was in error on my assumptions. I, therefor, had numerous trips back to the place of purchase to "swap" these devices for ones I thought were right, after a few "extra" trips, I got the right modem. Video, I posted here for the best "usable" card to get. Motherboard was a flat thing, just buy one that handles the CPU, the CPU was fastest but with cost being an issue. Modem was as stated above. Monitor, simple, had one, tried it on the Live CD, it worked, so it stayed. Keyboard, mouse, pretty much standard stuff - I like the wheel and "ball-less" type, but not the USB, had to be PS2, for the mouse, and the keyboard was my "old tried and true" M$ Natural, both worked in Live CD, so they stayed.

I think this is a good reason why the Live CD is being used, it "tests" your hardware, if it works with the Live CD, it will probably work with the HDD installed. First time I ran the CD, I just thought it was a "teaser" disk, one that, if you wanted the OS, you went out and bought the "full blown" version, only to find out "this was it." - I was incredibly impressed. Not in the Windows World, would it be released this way, nor a full version on the same media.

Hmmmmm, wonder what other people think about this "list" idea?

time will tell,
Cuddles

[counterzone]

lol. yeah. no only joking. But isnt there one already on www.linux.org im pretty sure there is. One more thing. I just redownloaded it and it wont burn. hmm. Ill try with a different burner. It comes up with some error. :( THEN i will try it :D

Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bob58]

Yes, Cuddles, you see what I mean...very interesting stuff this is! I wonder if anyone has ever done a survey of what items cause the majority of problems in Knoppix as far as hardware. I see video cards, sound cards and winmodems being right up there. I guess they dont make an INTERNAL modem that is not a WINmodem. So a list of things NOT TO USE and a list of things TO USE would be good. Just so people have an idea what to get. I am planning on building a machine exclusivley for KNOPPIX pretty soon. I just want to avoid the problems that can be prevented. Now I see clearly why the installation instructions for Linux say to identify all your hardware!!!!! As far as winmodems, I am hoping I wont EVER have to use a modem again anyway! I have a cable internet and Knoppix works great on it. Modems are painfully too slow to even consider using. Except if that all you have. I think it would be cool if people here compiled a list of hardware that will work running Knoppix and a list, like you said of things to avoid. Unfortunatly mostly everything, hardware and software is geared towards Micro$oft. I also wonder if any of the REAL hardcore techies and nerds have thought of COMPLETELY REDESIGNING the whole concept of the PC for running Linux! Am I going to extremes? It is just very interesting to me. Just like most TV programs are based on the California lifestyle, most PC's are based on running Windows. Where are those computer engineers who like LINUX???? How about an OVERHAUL on the PC? :idea: