Klaus Knopper Requests Your Feedback - please take this poll

Klaus Knopper has requested I post this poll. I would be grateful if you assisted by taking the poll and choosing ONE of the above. Please provide feedback by posting below.

From Klaus:

Since I recently switched to chromium as default browser, and only
graphical browser for the Knoppix CD (+adriane), I now have doubts if
this was in fact good. Personally, I like the google webbrowser for its
speed, stability, simplicity and intuitive interface, however, there are
a few points that I don't like:

- it is not accessible for blind people with orca.
This is really bad, especially for the ADRIANE
CD version where Firefox previously provided a
good way for browsing graphically and having
speech output+braille. I realized this only after the
6.7.0 release of Knoppix.

- Some users apparently don't like google and/or don't trust chromium.
This is a political thing. I personally have no objections using open
source software regardless of the primary vendor, and had chosen
chromium just because the technical reasons given above, without
intention of expressing any preferences pro or contra google.

- Noscript does not work in chromium, and there is no real good replacement.
However, disabling Javascript and Plugins and enabling them on a per-page
base is close to what Noscript did, and the security concept of running
each web page tab as separate process seems like a good approach to me.

I would like to know what other users think. Surely, we can keep both,
Firefox and Chromium on the DVD edition, but I need some feedback about
which should be the default, and there is only space for a single large
graphical browser in the CD version of Knoppix.

Which should be the default graphical WWW browser in Knoppix?

I am running 6.7 right now. I like new things and I really tried to switch to Chromium but it did not take my saved bookmarks even after 3 attempts. I use the Backup/Restore but nothing showed up. I am writing this using the Iceweasel found on the 6.7 DVD. It took my bookmarks and my passwords with no problems. These are the reasons I prefer Iceweasel for now. I would not throw out Chromium completely though. -- Thank you for a great product btw!!

I think it comes down to more of what we users are using a Knoppix CD/DVD for.

If you are using it to install the operating system onto a hard drive, then the user can pick as he/she pleases what they want to use.

I personally use knoppix as a portable operating system. I put it on a thumb drive with an encrypted filespace for personal storage. I don't use it to show me the latest browser. I use it to browse and access my own emails from whatever computer I might be using at the time. It makes the current computer my personal computer. I want a stable browser, not an experiment.

SeaMonkey is the best one of all so far. It is a suite with browser and email client (along with some other things) that I use and it handles multiple profiles that can be put where I want them. But SeaMonkey is not installed on the DVD or CD of Knoppix. But that is ok because the programs run just great from just about any directory. It is self contained and doesn't need crazy install processes to get it running. I can update it on the fly as I see fit. I can move the profile directory from OS to OS without having to re-adjust settings and email locations and whatnot. Think, moving 4 email accounts along with private folders and 3 usenet accounts to and from Windows and Linux installs. And I know where it wants the plugins located, so those are easy to install too. So I'm all good for my browser and email needs.

I didn't vote for other (SeaMonkey) because it may not be best for new users or users that use Knoppix for purposes other than what I do. So a generic browser application would probably be best for most other people.

Really what we need most is that things like robust emulators and utilities on the CD. Anyone here boot Knoppix from the CD/DVD to play the games? Certainly not I.

I think Klaus is grappling with two problems:
1.Chromium isn't working out well for the Adriane suite of programs; and
2.The CD version can't please everyone's choice of browser; preferably choose just one.

I've been working with Chromium recently and now can see some nice qualities I didn't
see at first. So my original comment to KK was more rooted in my being more comfortable
with what we'd been using all along.

I expect the Adriane aspect to be the more decisive, since I think that's KK's current focus.

I think we don't have enough reasons to switch to Chromium as default browser - yet. For my own part, I may soon start using it to try alternative ways of working, but my very superficial initial testing did not indicate any important reason for switching. For me, iceweasel works well, and I think there should be a really good reason to switch default browser.

I'm very impressed with Chromium. It uses screen space efficiently and is much faster rendering pages than Firefox. As I tend to use the CD version on older, resource limited machines, these are important points.

I really don't care, as long as it is NOT Chromium. Its minimalist mousetype UI is ridiculous. I open it every once in a while after installing updates just to see if anything's improved, but it's hard to tell because everything is so tiny. In FF4 I install Status-4-Evar and shuffle the icons back to the upper left to make it like FF3. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Moz/ff6vff36-1920x1200x120.png Actually I use SeaMonkey more than I do FF.

Hi,

I voted for something else.

I have voted for Iceweasel from ''deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ squeeze-backports iceweasel-release''. That is currently Iceweasel 6. It is a compromise between been being reasonably up to date and avoiding as long as possible 'upgrade grid lock' that can arise from mixing software from Debian stable, testing, unstable, experimental and oldstable.

The answer to the question depends on what the author considers the purpose of Knoppix to be.

Problems with Adriane argue for Iceweasel, not Chromium.

Knoppix, LiveCD, the show case of Linux software (as it used to be known), ought perhaps to be showing off Chromium.

The Knoppix 6 LiveCD has no persistent store. So, I suspect, the LiveCD is not of much use to regular users of Knoppix and thus those likely to respond to this poll.

Those who have done a hard drive installation can install what they like so their preference is perhaps of little importance ?

Those who have done a USB installation can also install what they like but fiddling with packages quickly fills modest sized 'persistent' stores. However, perhaps the preferences of those who use a Knoppix USB installation because they need a portable Linux installation are significant ?

Many of the early respondents to the poll are fiddling, or have fiddled, with remastering. They might argue that the silver lining of choosing the 'wrong' browser is the encouragment that gave them.

Browsers such as Firefox, Seamonkey and, I shouldn't wonder, Chromium can be obtained in OS neutral, no install, ready to run from USB packaging but that has nothing to do with the question.

Repeat, the Knoppix 6 LiveCD has no persistent store. So the default browser, whichever it is, cannot support profiles or add-ons or an kind of personalisation or customisation. Likewise, an e-mail client, any e-mail client, bundled with a browser or not, is not of much use without persistent store. No wonder Icedove was thrown off the CD.

Seamonkey ? That was Puppy 2, Puppy 5, I've read, doesn't come with a browser. It comes with a choice of browsers to install: Firefox, Opera, Iron, Chromium and Seamonkey.

Finally, I've never tried Chromium. How else am I ever going to get round to that unless it is the default browser on my favourite LiveCD ? Bravo Klaus.

... I voted for Iceweasel (not experimental). I don't like always try new things without any benefit. And especially for remastering purpose of CD version, Chromium is such a big tool: 13.1 M versus 1098 k (Iceweasel). Therefore I purged Chromium with my scripts.

Greetings Werner * http://www.wp-schulz.de/knoppix/summary.html
Own Rescue-CD with Knoppix (Knoppix V6.7.0 remaster)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Werner P. Schulz

Chromium is such a big tool: 13.1 M versus 1098 k (Iceweasel).

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Hi Werner,

Where did you get your numbers from ? Are you using the size of the Debian packages as an estimation for the space needed in the compressed iso ?

According to apt-get, installing Firefox would require 4 Mb of disk space after installation but purging Chromium (and the EN internationalisation) would save 86.4 Mb.

These numbers are misleading for comparison purposes. Cross-platform applications such as browsers and the office suite tend not to rely too much on the host platform. The downside of that is they tend to be big because they don't reuse libraries that are already installed quite as much as applications written for Linux.

For example, I installed the xine front end on my Debian and it was tiny because the backend had already been installed (I think KDE uses it) but when I installed VLC a load of qt libraries were dragged in and it appeared to be big.

Iceweasel (aka Firefox) uses XUL. So does Icedove (aka Thunderbird) and so, I suppose, does Seamonkey. I don't know of any other applications that use it. If not, then KK should have removed that as well when Iceweasel and Icedove were removed. Seems he did not. Perhaps apt or dpkg wasn't playing nice that day.

How big is XUL ? Purging it with apt-get suggests it (and the icedtea plug-in for Mozilla browsers) suggests 20 Mb of disk space would be freed. The fact that I could purge it at all but that this took icedtea with it suggests it is only used by icedtea, which, as far as I know, is useless without a Mozilla browser.

Those who installed Firefox from Mozilla instead of Iceweasel may now have two copies of XUL. Mastering / remastering isn't simple.

Conclusion is that Chromium is a lot bigger than Iceweasel but not 10 times bigger.

... yes, I only used the package size from aptitude.

But now, I tested it extensive:
purge xulrunner
http://www.wp-schulz.de/grafiken/xulrunner.PNG
and remaster Knoppix

purge chromium
http://www.wp-schulz.de/grafiken/chromium.PNG
install iceweasel
http://www.wp-schulz.de/grafiken/iceweasel.PNG
and remaster Knoppix

The result: the remastered ISO with Chromium is 22880K bigger than the remastered ISO with Iceweasel.


Greetings Werner * http://www.wp-schulz.de/knoppix/summary.html
Own Rescue-CD with Knoppix (Knoppix V6.7.0 remaster)

Werner,

What answer do you get when you reverse this process?

... I can purge Iceweasel without any problems. But if I try to reinstall Chromium, I get a large list of version conflicts an violated dependencies.

Thanks, Werner.

FWIW, for the CD-size 2 Gb LiveUSB, with no re-mastering, just Synaptic:

Size of free in /home/knoppix at first............................................. .....................598.2 Mb
Size of free in /home/knoppix after .addition. of IceWeasel using Synaptic...590.8 Mb
Size of free in /Home/knoppix after 'deletion' of Chromium. using Synaptic..555.7 Mb
Size of free in /Home/knoppix after .addition, of Ad Block + and Subscr........505.6 Mb

Chromium, in this case, remains a part of the KNOPPIX compressed file.
It would be a LOT cheaper in Mbs just to keep the Chromium if you can't re-master.
Moreover, re-installing Chromium at this point doesn't seem to be an option using
...Synaptic because of 'uninstallable' broken dependencies

Saw the announcement about this poll over at debian-knoppix so will "byte", in particular because I had just seen Chromium and Knoppix mentioned in the same breath recently.. :)

In attempting to upgrade Iceweasel off of a tiny bit outdated Knoppix version last year (due to a compatibility issue with one domain registrar), I discovered Icecat.. STILL having compatibility issues with same said registrar, BUT *I LOVE ICECAT* otherwise.. As much as anything I think it is because they profess to try to be as purely "free" as possible..

Have tried some of the others like Opera and Seamonkey.. Opera and Seamonkey are "neat" in each their own way because of the bells and whistles their respective communities have developed.. Icecat (installed locally while running off live DVD), though, has and likely will keep my loyalty at this point because of the "free" aspect along with a *cognitive* usability/accessibility factor which is its simpleness..

*Thank you* for asking us.. Warmest wishes from North Georgia.. :)

PS.. For what it's worth, Konqueror is my fallback Choice when I have that now RARE "compatibility" issue with any websites.. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Werner P. Schulz

... I can purge Iceweasel without any problems. But if I try to reinstall Chromium, I get a large list of version conflicts an violated dependencies.

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Yep. If you try:

Code:

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sudo apt-get --dry-run upgrade

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That will tell you which packages are out of date and which would be 'held back' if you try to upgrade. If you delete, directly or indirectly, any package listed as 'held back', it won't reinstall.

Chromium is 'held back'. So are parts of LibreOffice.

This will get worse over time until Knoppix catches up with a new release.

Some might argue this is a reason for preferring packages from back port repositories over packages from unstable or experimental repositories.

An addendum to post #14 for intrepid rm * users:

Size of free in /Home/knoppix after hand-deletion of chromium-related entries in KNOPPIX-DATA.....542.8 Mb

But remember, even so, it's still a zombie in the KNOPPIX compressed file.

I've been using Mozilla's navigators since "before" they become that, in fact (remember how Netscape was better that "the other" browser?). I think Chromium is not that faster and lighter when compared to Firefox. Besides, the toolbars are better in Firefox. So: I'll go for Firefox without looking back.
But if you are thinking lighter, we should consider Seamonkey, Midori or something else, also.

Quote:

---

- it is not accessible for blind people with orca.
This is really bad, especially for the ADRIANE
CD version where Firefox previously provided a
good way for browsing graphically and having
speech output+braille. I realized this only after the
6.7.0 release of Knoppix.

---

This is a big deal. While I use Chromium and like it. I did not know that. Important if you are setting up a system for a company and their HR department or similar policy states that the company must address these things like sight-challenged workers. So for that, I put my vote in for Firefox/Iceweasel.

I feel it is important that the browser on the CD is 'mainstream' &, considering KK's wife is blind, that it is usable by the blind, as this is one of his motivations to keep on working on Knoppix Live Linux.

Most people can use the DVD, so there will always be choice there.

Personally, I like minimalist systems, to the point of using VT's a lot, with the likes of mc, herrie, SC, screen, sqlite, fbi, etc. But when I want the web lynx doesn't cut it for me.

The only thing I would like to see, is a down loadable usb version, so that I can just dd it; & fdisk, format the rest of the drive for personal files.

I normally use Chromium, since I have a Google Gmail account, I also use the online services Docs, Picasa and also because my wife feels easy to use ....
I use Firefox when I connect to the Tor network

So I think the DVD version of Knoppix they can both coexist ...

Sorry, I think it's senseless to follow a six months old thread (started 08-22-2011). Also some other postings last days in this Forum are outdated.

Greetings Werner

Hi Werner, surely you're right, but I started using linux only eight months ago, almost completely abandoning Windows, and after deciding to use Knoppix, I registered as a member of the forum in Oct. 2011.
Throughout this period I practiced, I studied the new operating system, I read most of threads to customize knoppix to my liking.
I asked for advice, I got help from everyone, and frankly I have learned a lot. Also, if my humble opinion is added to old threads, I think that can still be a "starting point" for those who will approach Knoppix after me and possess my own perseverance in wanting to learn.
Who comes next has benefited from the experience of those who went before, but only if this experience is handed down.

Thank you.
Regards

Other Maybe Opera! works nearly on anything!


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It doesn't make sense to answer in a very old thread.
wps