Knoppix for Windows Users

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06-12-2004, 05:49 PM
knewbex

Knoppix for Windows Users

Based on my observations of this forum set, I have a recommendation.
I suggest the administrators set up a Forum Tread in the index for Windows users wishing to learn more about linux in general and knoppix in particular.
It should expressly state in the first message that Linux Geeks are NOT welcome. I have a gut feeling that the Windows community has as much technical savvy as those who somehow think linux knowledge places them on on a higher plane.
I'm frankly tired of the arrogance of some of these folks when dealing with those of us trying to learn "their" system so we can become members of "their" community. We can fend for ourselves. It may be a more arduous learning curve but at least we could investigate and learn and share among those of a similar background of OPSYS experience. Linux is improving but is light years behind ever becoming a user friendly system unless helped along by user friendly minded users.... gross omissions like lack of consistent install processes including wizards and scripts to take the labor and indepth system knowledge requirement out of the equation, lack of api-s that allow inclusion of new hardware without recompiling the "kernel" (geeze what a primitive concept) etc. will prevent this mess from ever becoming a mature desktop environment.
I know work is being done on some of the necessary stuff but the obnoxious community we have to deal with to find out the simplest things that unecessarily impede a noobee from getting what they aleady have working on Windows to just burp in linux is itself a great turnoff.
Just where do these folks think their converts are going to come from, those who get insulted because they are new to an overly complex environment or those that demand sensible user interfaces and tools already present in the system they are trying to move from?
Please give us a venue on the Knoppix forum where we can share our sucesses and knowledge without the abuse. Free software that requires a PHD to deal with is not free. You get what you pay for. Make no mistake . I want to move from Windows to an open environment but it is not cost that drives me.
If you don't like this position then flame away, I'm a lot thicker skinned than some of the linux techweenies around here. If you agree then lets get going on a windows migration exchange among windows knowledgable folks.
06-12-2004, 09:35 PM
j.drake

Re: Knoppix for Windows Users

Quote:

Originally Posted by knewbex

If you don't like this position then flame away, I'm a lot thicker skinned than some of the linux techweenies around here. If you agree then lets get going on a windows migration exchange among windows knowledgable folks.

1. No, I LOVE this position. I really do. I was there also. And what you are saying about the limitations of Linux are absolutely true.

2. Don't know how long you've been lurking at this site (well, actually I guess I do, because from your profile it looks like you joined less than a week ago), but I hope that you haven't gotten your prejudices about linux geeks here. I've been here about a year, now, and for the most part, I've found people here to be extremely helpful and patient. When they aren't patient, it's because the problem isn't described specifically enough to allow anyone to help. If you drew your perceptions somewhere else, give this site a chance. There's very little flaming here, and very little of the "RTFM" mentality.

3. As a new linux user from Windows, I WANTED help from experienced people. If Eadz desires to incorporate your suggestion into his site (and it is his site, after all) I would suggest, as someone in the middle, that experienced Linux users NOT be excluded from helping if they wish to, PROVIDED THAT they agree to do so in a way that doesn't exhibit the arrogance you describe. No MS or Windows bashing, for example. No "RTFM". No answers consisting simply of a link to the "How to ask intelligent questions" site. Frankly, I don't think that experienced Linux users with the arrogance you describe WANT to help people who don't want their help, and will be more than happy to stay away if the poster simply says so in the title of the post (e.g., no experienced replies, please). I really think that a newbie section makes a lot of sense, and the folks who are rabidly into Linux won't be annoyed by reading through posts that try their patience.

JD
06-12-2004, 11:39 PM
eco2geek

Quote:

I know work is being done on some of the necessary stuff but the obnoxious community we have to deal with to find out the simplest things that unecessarily impede a noobee from getting what they aleady have working on Windows to just burp in linux is itself a great turnoff.

We must be reading different forums. Although some in the Linux community can be..."obnoxious" isn't the word I'd use...maybe arrogant...anyway, this board is the friendliest Linux board I've seen so far -- there's a strong desire to help, and precious little Microsoft or newbie bashing -- to the point where I've been very tempted to ask for help with other flavors of Linux, and even post Windows questions, here.

Quote:

Please give us a venue on the Knoppix forum where we can share our sucesses and knowledge without the abuse.

I don't see any abuse happening here and never have. You seem to have a thinner skin than you think.
06-12-2004, 11:43 PM
DuckDodgers

http://www.techhelpers.net/e4u/aliens/spacecraft.gif
:shock: Post removed due to offensive nature. :shock:
06-13-2004, 12:59 AM
j.drake

All comments here are directed to initial poster.

I think one of the problems is that many of us, myself included, still consider ourselves to be newbies, even when we try to help others. There are maybe half a dozen people on this site who honestly know how talented and knowledgeable they are. I read a post by someone who had nearly 600 posts here, and that person still referred to herself as a newbie. To others, some of us may seem like linux geeks, but to many of us, we consider ourselves to be just as frustrated and vulnerable as you. Few, if any, of us are professional teachers, so we do the best we can to help without offending.

BTW, one of the things that will spark an arrogant reaction is for someone to come in here with a big chip on their shoulder, and it sounded to me like you had a huge one.

JD
06-13-2004, 01:07 AM
Hunkah

I agree with this whole thread!

1. It would be nice to have a migration from windows catagory, just to make the new crap, er sorry, crop of L-users feel welcome.

2. I agree this is the best of ANY Linux Forum I have ever had the pleasure to meet with. You guys are awesome. Its too bad you smell like that though.

3. Just so you know, I was speaking about myself in point one. ... and probably the second part of two as well. :?
06-13-2004, 05:01 AM
j.drake

Re: Knoppix for Windows Users

Quote:

Originally Posted by knewbex

Based on my observations of this forum set, I have a recommendation.
I suggest the administrators set up a Forum Tread in the index for Windows users wishing to learn more about linux in general and knoppix in particular. It should expressly state in the first message that Linux Geeks are NOT welcome. I have a gut feeling that the Windows community has as much technical savvy as those who somehow think linux knowledge places them on on a higher plane. I'm frankly tired of the arrogance of some of these folks when dealing with those of us trying to learn "their" system so we can become members of "their" community. We can fend for ourselves.

I know work is being done on some of the necessary stuff but the obnoxious community we have to deal with to find out the simplest things that unecessarily impede a noobee from getting what they aleady have working on Windows to just burp in linux is itself a great turnoff.

Please give us a venue on the Knoppix forum where we can share our sucesses and knowledge without the abuse.

You know, I was just thinking, if this is what you want, and you don't want to hear from any one here, then WTH are you here in the first place??? I mean, this isn't some corporate-sponsored forum - there are options. Please feel free to start whatever community you want, and you can flame Linux and Linux-folks to your heart's content, and the rest of the Windows users on your site can find your own answers. Just what exactly is it about this place that makes you want to be here? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you aren't welcome here or anything, but after re-reading your post, I can't think of one logical reason why this place would be necessary to your goals - you've already said that you don't want what it has to offer. So, maybe before you ask a bunch of people to scramble around to accommodate your desire to be isolated from this imagined fantasy of what you perceive this site to be, maybe you should reconsider whether this is the best place for you in the first place. There's no corporate sponsorship of this forum, as you're probably used to with Microsoft products, so no one here is going to lose any money or anything if you start your own site. I just looked at GoDaddy.com, and it turns out that "Knoppixsucks.com" is available for the asking. I say go for it, dude!

JD
06-14-2004, 01:49 AM
champagnemojo

I don't ever say anything, but I admit that I ignore the people asking questions that have been asked 100 times. This is really the only thing I've ever seen people on this forum be blunt about. I hope this isn't what is being referred to here though, because that's not a "linux forum" phenomenon. Doing a quick search before asking a question is just the proper thing to do on any support forum. Windows forums aren't any more accepting of such things...nor car forums, nor guitar forums, etc. :D

Interestingly, I think I've actually seen more posts on here referring to "linux snobs" and such than I have anything derogatory towards windows users. It seems like some people come in expecting everybody to be rude...and a few seem to be looking for anything that will confirm that expectation.
06-18-2004, 09:55 AM
Edgardo

Knoppix for Windows users

"Based on my observations of this forum set, I have a recommendation.
I suggest the administrators set up a Forum Tread in the index for Windows users wishing to learn more about linux in general and knoppix in particular."

Hi, I agree with knewbex. As newbie and still Windows user, I think it is a good idea. It is right that there are the FAQ, other docs and the mainling lists, but often it is difficult to find the right answer for the own problem because the many hardward configurations and needs.
I suggest a moderator/maintainer for windows users.

Edgardo
06-18-2004, 07:05 PM
eadz

I think a windows forum is a good idea and can be used for :

- Windows recovery using Knoppix
- Problems with windows after running knoppix ( these happen rarely )
- Support from windows people
- migration from windows
- general discussion about open source/free software windows products ( mozilla, open office etc )

The fact is, Knoppix is many windows's users first experience with Linux, and if (ex)windows users want a forum well I think thats ok.
06-19-2004, 07:41 AM
Edgardo

Quote:

Originally Posted by eadz

I think a windows forum is a good idea and can be used for :

- Windows recovery using Knoppix
- Problems with windows after running knoppix ( these happen rarely )
- Support from windows people
- migration from windows
- general discussion about open source/free software windows products ( mozilla, open office etc )

The fact is, Knoppix is many windows's users first experience with Linux, and if (ex)windows users want a forum well I think thats ok.

You get the right answer: I agree with you. For me it is important: soft migration from windows and support. Many windows' users are at the first experience with Knoppix (it is their first linux).
I hope also the maintainers agree with this new forum.

Edgardo
06-25-2004, 03:15 AM
digitalsuperman

Quote:

Originally Posted by eadz

I think a windows forum is a good idea and can be used for :

- Windows recovery using Knoppix
- Problems with windows after running knoppix ( these happen rarely )
- Support from windows people
- migration from windows
- general discussion about open source/free software windows products ( mozilla, open office etc )

The fact is, Knoppix is many windows's users first experience with Linux, and if (ex)windows users want a forum well I think thats ok.

you have a very good point there...having a windows thread here in this site,even though this is a knoppix forum site, would'nt baother anyone...the situations listed above are some of the things we or I might encounter..and maybe posting those things that happened in the windows OS using knoppix might solve the windows problem...
07-15-2004, 11:19 AM
Macrob

Don't think I can agree with knewbex.

Quote:

I know work is being done on some of the necessary stuff but the obnoxious community we have to deal with to find out the simplest things that unecessarily impede a noobee from getting what they aleady have working on Windows to just burp in linux is itself a great turnoff.

I joined the forums today after trying a HD install for the last week. I posted a query on the HD Install forum and 10 mins later I had an answer in language a total newbie could understand.

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11983

I quickly got a resolution to a problem I snuck in while thanking ghetto_blaster for help. He's (maybe she's) a legend.

Not bad to have these simple but irritating problems solved so quickly in plain non-geek language. The tips I've received today have helped me explore the intricaies of Knoppix and the more I see confirms it's the distro for me.

:D :D
07-19-2004, 10:12 PM
turbine

Look gang, the poster has a very valid position. For the most part I agree with the responses. What I disagree with is that we should never ever tell someone to use the search function to find answers before asking us. Here's why I think this way. The number one problem with linux in general is that the hardware manufacturers don't typically provide linux drivers whenever they introduce a new product. They do provide same for windows. That causes installation problems and prevents having the uniform process that the poster is looking for. Now what would incourage the hardware folks to provide those drivers is a greater market size of linux users. You know what would create that don't you? That's right more linux users. Therefore it's in all of our best interests to do everything that we possibly can to encourage and generate new users. That means never turning noobies out with harsh treatment, and always bending over backwards to help them.
07-19-2004, 10:57 PM
champagnemojo

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbine

Look gang, the poster has a very valid position. For the most part I agree with the responses. What I disagree with is that we should never ever tell someone to use the search function to find answers before asking us. Here's why I think this way. The number one problem with linux in general is that the hardware manufacturers don't typically provide linux drivers whenever they introduce a new product. They do provide same for windows. That causes installation problems and prevents having the uniform process that the poster is looking for. Now what would incourage the hardware folks to provide those drivers is a greater market size of linux users. You know what would create that don't you? That's right more linux users. Therefore it's in all of our best interests to do everything that we possibly can to encourage and generate new users. That means never turning noobies out with harsh treatment, and always bending over backwards to help them.

It depends on the question. The only ones I outright ignore are the ones asking for the root password and such. But I don't really see any harsh treatment from people here. I think when people don't get answers it's mostly just because nobody knew how to help them based on the information they gave. I haven't even been using linux for a year yet I don't think, and I've enjoyed this forum a lot. I like it because so many people here are new to linux like myself. I feel like we're all learning together.
07-20-2004, 12:51 AM
nishtya

Have to agree with champagne that I have never really seen really harsh treatment here. You want to see harsh treatment? Go to a debian group with a knoppix problem. :shock:

I do agree with the other poster, however, that in order to court more linux users, the rest of us (I got nerve including me in "us" I am a newbie) have to go out of our way to be helpful and hospitable.

There just aren't as many resources for the linux neophyte to turn to as say a WXP user. And though it may not be entirely accurate, Linux is more difficult starting out. It isn't just click here, agree to this and default to that.

patience & good humor 8)

will save the day,
Nish
07-26-2004, 03:16 AM
user unknown

Re: Knoppix for Windows Users

Quote:

Originally Posted by knewbex

(...)
I'm frankly tired of the arrogance of some of these folks when dealing with those of us trying to learn "their" system so we can become members of "their" community.
(...)

Are you talking about me?
Of whom?
Which thread?

In my opinion it's best practice to claim about misbehaviour close to the point, where it happens, and not in general, anonymous way, where everybody can guess, whether he is meant or not, and nobody might defend himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by knewbex

(...)
gross omissions like lack of consistent install processes including wizards and scripts to take the labor and indepth system knowledge requirement out of the equation, lack of api-s that allow inclusion of new hardware without recompiling the "kernel" (geeze what a primitive concept) etc.

You know that there isn't a consistent install process for windows (Beside: 'close all applications' 'reboot often'. :) )?
Suse, Redhat, debian (and ...?) have their 'install processes' but there is no central linux-company, which organizes such things.
Most programs are modular, and dependencies minimized.

I.e.: you may install Image-Magic, without libjpeg, libtiff, libpng - or install those seperately. These libs might be used from different applications as well. They might be replaced by newer versions without touching image-magic.
So there are lot of advantages of a independent-modular system-design too.

You may have a kernel with every known module build in advance - or you build a lean kernel with only the drivers you actually need.

The linux kernel is running on very different hardware (look at /usr/src/linux/arch - 20 entries), with one common source. This is a bit complicated in the beginning to understand, but show a better solution.
Again you might get benefits from an updated gcc (Gnu C Compiler) and patch your kernel often to get enhancements (and fresh bugs :) .)
I didn't test to optimize the kernel for my processor, and don't know, whether it is recommended - but it seems to be a benefit too.

I updated my kernel from 2.6.1 to 2.6.7 with patches of 1.4MB to 3.0MB in about half a year.

How big are MS-binary-patches? How often do you get them?

The kernel is developed in an uncentralized, networking culture.
(geeze what a primitive concept)

We all like to hear of a better one.
knewbex - the keyboard is yours!
07-26-2004, 04:57 AM
ishaim

a newbie's perspective

hello, i am new to linux, knoppix, and this forum.. i think that both sides have very valid statements.. if i were even the least bit acquainted with linux, i wouldn't bother with questions like this either..

Quote:

It depends on the question. The only ones I outright ignore are the ones asking for the root password and such.

the problem with that.. people fresh off the windows boat like myself haven't the faintest clue about things like that. this is not to say that i, myself, won't begin to feel like champagnemojo, AFTER becoming acquainted with linux, AFTER seeking more novice linux material..

i think going the extra mile to state (what may already be to you) the obvious, to a newbie such as myself, helps out alot more than most people would think..

whatever reasons inspire a person to switch to linux shouldn't be discriminated against, it's counterintuitive.. less linux users = less linux advancements.. i may be wrong, but wouldn't someone wanting to switch over to linux be more computer savvy in the first place?
09-05-2004, 11:52 PM
Flash00

Re: Knoppix for Windows Users

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.drake

If you don't like this position then flame away, I'm a lot thicker skinned than some of the linux techweenies around here. If you agree then lets get going on a windows migration exchange among windows knowledgable folks.

<>

2. Don't know how long you've been lurking at this site (well, actually I guess I do, because from your profile it looks like you joined less than a week ago), but I hope that you haven't gotten your prejudices about linux geeks here. I've been here about a year, now, and for the most part, I've found people here to be extremely helpful and patient. When they aren't patient, it's because the problem isn't described specifically enough to allow anyone to help. If you drew your perceptions somewhere else, give this site a chance. There's very little flaming here, and very little of the "RTFM" mentality.

I couldn't agree more. This is the most civilized forum I've seen. Most of the posters seem to know how to spell, or at least know how to use a spell-checker, and there always seems to be someone willing to try to help - if the question can be understood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.drake

3. As a new linux user from Windows, I WANTED help from experienced people. If Eadz desires to incorporate your suggestion into his site (and it is his site, after all) I would suggest, as someone in the middle, that experienced Linux users NOT be excluded from helping if they wish to, PROVIDED THAT they agree to do so in a way that doesn't exhibit the arrogance you describe. No MS or Windows bashing, for example. No "RTFM". No answers consisting simply of a link to the "How to ask intelligent questions" site. Frankly, I don't think that experienced Linux users with the arrogance you describe WANT to help people who don't want their help, and will be more than happy to stay away if the poster simply says so in the title of the post (e.g., no experienced replies, please). I really think that a newbie section makes a lot of sense, and the folks who are rabidly into Linux won't be annoyed by reading through posts that try their patience.

JD

Again I couldn't agree more, though it would be nice if previous questions and answers were catalogued so that someone who wants to answer a question can quickly find out if there is a relevant post, and link to it in his or her reply. I know, I know; that's what the FAQ is supposed to be for, but I've spent many a frustrating and fruitless hour searching through FAQs that don't seem to be in any order, with no way to find out if my question is in there except to read every single entry. I'm talking about an indexed database which includes every question posted in this forum, arranged and cross-referenced by topic, with links to what seem to be the clearest answers. Impossible dream? Maybe. Still it would make this forum infinitely better, don't you think?

I do want to thank everyone involved with this forum for being so helpful and and patient. You guys are the best.
09-06-2004, 04:11 AM
user unknown

I guess having (a kind) of database would be a benefit, but I cannot agree totally.

Often the questions have a subject like 'newbie need help' or 'having an error' or 'I feel smart'.
Either experienced users should have the right to turn a useless subject into a usefull, or we need to educate new users.
Some users don't even find the right section and have another modem question in the lounge.
Moving entries to the correct place would be useful, together with a section-subject-keyword-search.

And sometimes you have to make the people read the manpages.
It's not a silver bullet for a beginners forum, but dogmatically forbidding to claim 'rtfm' isn't correct too.
RTFM belongs to our culture.

And windows-bashing needs to occur from time to time too.
It's boring after all the years, but sometimes, I need it.
09-06-2004, 04:46 AM
Ptarmigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

Some users don't even find the right section and have another modem question in the lounge.

Only because there was a thread recently active on the subject "no modem = no internet = lost user" in this very lounge and one would have thought that those who were paying attention would have realised that here was a refugee from Windows who might be about to be put off by lack of obvious support for (win)modems ?? do I have to give chapter and verse ? Or are you so without humour and short term memory ? If you are so troubled by "another modem question" perhaps a PM instead of a sideways comment might have been lady-like ?

Quote:

And sometimes you have to make the people read the manpages.

Go on , make me ,,, :)

Quote:

RTFM belongs to our culture.

And did you ever ask yourself why it has become such a joke, like FAQs ? because they are usually so garolous thet we never get to the point. let alone the end, they never (well, not often!) answer the question ** one had and if they did there wouldnt be a need for forums(or fora) would there ?

** and are out of date more often than not viz. boot.thingy that might have been valid pre 3.4 but aint worth a spit now
[oh I suppose I had better explain that as well: I refer the honerable person to a post I made earlier in GeneralSupport about the lack of a boot.img in the v3.6 iso, which I am sure now is a particular strategy on the part of the developers to confuse the new user, in spite of the much acclaimed desire to demonstrate and advocate Linux to the unawares via Knoppix ] Do I make myself clear on rtfm matters ? So there !pipe&smokeit

Quote:

And windows-bashing needs to occur from time to time

Oh yes. (seriously, I do agree ! letus not forget our DOSer roots please)

PS I am underwhelmed by the GNUchess on the Knoppix distro btw if anyone is interested !

And, if anyone is still awake, suggestions on how to translitterate ones dialups from windows to knoppix id be interested, oh ! so sorry, I shud go do that in the windows forum I suppose ?

(edit a bit later) pardon me, I suppose I should have said "good bye" , to be polite.
Malcolm
09-06-2004, 07:12 AM
j.drake

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

And sometimes you have to make the people read the manpages. It's not a silver bullet for a beginners forum, but dogmatically forbidding to claim 'rtfm' isn't correct too.
RTFM belongs to our culture.

And windows-bashing needs to occur from time to time too.
It's boring after all the years, but sometimes, I need it.

Oh, please! Save us the sanctimony. Rudeness is never appropriate or educational, and it's disingenuous to try to justify personal arrogance as "help". Sure, I've flamed people in the past (generally people who come in and start criticizing and acting boorish without even asking a sincere question), but, to my knowledge, I haven't ever done it to someone who sincerely wanted to learn, and I don't think I ever tried to justify it as being "for their own good". It's quite possible to educate people about helpful resources without being an ass.

And Flash00's criticisms about the available resources is quite valid. I try to sort through and do some rewriting when I get a chance, but some of it is just awful. Outdated information, fragmented all over the place, overly complicated "fixes" - a good portion of documentation purporting to address a particular issue is generally not at all helpful, or just flat wrong. I'd do more, except: (1) my knowledge is limited here, and I only try to address the issues where I feel some level of competency and experience (which means that I normally limit my contributions to newbie and Windows transition issues), and (2) some people get upset if you delete or rewrite what they wrote, even if it's confusing or outdated, and given how rare it is that anyone will add good documentation, you sure can't afford to offend them. Ideally, people would edit and update their own contributions as necessary. In sum, I guess it's difficult for me to accept the "culture" of RTFM, when there really isn't an available "FM" to be had! Sometimes it's an "FUM".

Funny thing, Ptarmigan and I actually participated in another thread a few days ago, talking about how Windows has a way of creating a sense of helplessness, and that it was actually refreshing to get back into an environment where you have the freedom to change the way a program runs if you want to. Not only is that difficult in Windows, but the most influential people spend millions of dollars to convince (they would say "educate") the users that this is morally wrong - even criminal! It's hacking after all!! After a few years, Windows users don't even realize that they've been brainwashed to be passive and helpless. In many ways, it's not only tolerated, but required that you do nothing without a wizard instructing you. I still remember times when I dared to pick a different install location for a Windows program, and all heck broke loose, then I couldn't even uninstall the mess, much less fix it. In the Windows world, the very idea of editing a program is likely a felony under the DMCA.

So, I can easily understand why people who have spent a long time in Linux cannot understand the helplessness of Windows immigrants. To the Linux oldtimers, it must be really hard to tolerate. All I can say is that it's not always laziness, stupidity or lack of initiative. Sometimes it's just a matter of not yet catching on to the freedom that Linux affords. And why should we get upset if a new user asks about the root password? To the Windows user, the whole concept is completely foreign. They deserve congratulation for even making it far enough to ask. Why should we take them to task for not understanding the "mount" command, when even Linux users agree that it's a stupid, useless artifact of an ancient era - outdated and unnecessary long before Windows was even conceived? The people who seek help come from Windows expecting to find an OS that's intuitive to new users - not one that's baffling even to people who are well-experienced in another OS. Is it their fault that Linux cannot meet that challenge?

Let's put the shoe on the other foot - how many experienced Linux users have ever had to use Windows, and found it so frustrating and baffling that they couldn't even make the simplest thing work - something like, say, opening or saving a file? How many of you actually had to search around and find a forum of Windows users, and cowtow and kiss butt to ask them such embarrassingly simple questions, only to be taken to task for not RTFMing all of the Windows documentation? And, for that matter, how many of you have actually taken the time to read all of the help and support pages in Windows, or read through the Microsoft Knowledge Base? And what if you did, and all the stuff from Windows 3.1 and 95 and Me was all jumbled up together with XP and 2000 by amateur writers, such that a good portion of the time, whatever you looked up won't work even if you went to all that trouble? Point is, the experienced Linux user, when suddenly put into a Windows environment, doesn't experience the same level of frustration and humiliation as the experienced Windows user who comes here.

On this forum, people from other countries post here, and their English is terrible, but does anyone take them to task and tell them to RTFD(ictionary)? And then justify it as part of a "culture"? Or "good for them"? Of course not. It's rude and uncalled for. Someone from Greece or Hungary who posts here in bad English doesn't owe me or anyone else here an apology, because they spoke well enough for me to understand, which is a damn sight better than I could ever imagine doing if I tried to speak Greek or Hungarian.

jd
09-06-2004, 11:50 AM
Ptarmigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.drake

Oh, please! Save us the sanctimony.

(snip) all very well said jd, I totally agree.
Until last night I thought that this was one of the more pleasant places to be on the internet, I see that I was mistaken :(
"user unknown" does not even do us the courtesy of even pretending to have a real name to sign posts with and is in the process of being 'holier-than-thou' and unpleasant to chris-harry elsewhere.
Does (s)he make a habbit of this ?
If it isnt bad enough already muttering at recalcitrant software, we now have to mutter at peeps on the forum.
I can do without this, I think perhaps I dont need to be in this place. After all, I was only trying Knoppix/Linux out for a bit of fun, it aint life&death.

grrrrr
Malcolm
annoyed, nay furious, now.
09-06-2004, 02:46 PM
champagnemojo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ptarmigan

Until last night I thought that this was one of the more pleasant places to be on the internet, I see that I was mistaken :(
"user unknown" does not even do us the courtesy of even pretending to have a real name to sign posts with and is in the process of being 'holier-than-thou' and unpleasant to chris-harry elsewhere.
Does (s)he make a habbit of this ?
If it isnt bad enough already muttering at recalcitrant software, we now have to mutter at peeps on the forum.
I can do without this, I think perhaps I dont need to be in this place. After all, I was only trying Knoppix/Linux out for a bit of fun, it aint life&death.

grrrrr
Malcolm
annoyed, nay furious, now.

In every forum you will find someone who rubs you the wrong way. We all have different personalities, and clashes are bound to occur. If you find the forum helpful it hardly makes sense to leave due to issues with one member. Besides...you know you want to move to linux. :wink:
09-06-2004, 02:50 PM
user unknown

Which sanctimony?

I told about rtfm and windows-bashing in general.
I can not search for chris-harry in my 200 posts, but if he is as sensitive as you, he can talk for himself, I guess.

If I would search for my new Foo7x9bar - Hardware, and get 50 results, all with subject 'Hey, I'm new' or 'linux question' or 'I am smart' (is this chris-harry?) - would I look into the 50 posts? No, I would start a new thread 'feeling helpless'.

If you don't tell the greenhorns, how to behave in a forum - where shall they learn it?
How even recognize, that their behaviour is horrible?

Cheers, Stefan
09-06-2004, 05:37 PM
j.drake

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

If you don't tell the greenhorns, how to behave in a forum - where shall they learn it?
How even recognize, that their behaviour is horrible?

Well, I always thought it best to teach by example. After all, they're coming here to learn what we know - wouldn't they naturally try to emulate, given enough time? Don't most people naturally aspire for respect among colleagues? That's always the way it's been in my professional career. And should it become necessary to give someone a good dressing-down, then it should normally come from a recognized authority figure, perhaps a site admin or a mod, for outrageous behavior that the poster knew darn good and well was inappropriate. You don't go slapping newbs with sarcasm just because they don't know any better and they're easy targets for ambush. This is a forum, not a blanket party - if you insist upon micromanaging the behavior of others, then make sure your own behavior is beyond question first.

As far as sanctimony is concerned, what I'm referring to is the idea that slapping newbs around is justifiable as "good for them". I've heard all this before. When I went to college, all the fraternity boys started spouting the same old justifications every time they got caught hazing freshman pledges - that it was educational, or part of a culture or tradition. Bull! They did it because they thought it was fun to exercise domination over someone who was disadvantaged by a lack of information and experience. If you're going to do it anyway, then at least be honest about why.
09-06-2004, 06:38 PM
user unknown

I don't slap newbs around, and I when I complain about how to ask, I do it for myself - not because it's good for them.
I'm not using a slow modem anymore, but it's not to long ago, when I did, and it's still my time I spend, and I don't like to waste it, because of misbehaviour.
A clear topic can often show me, that I don't have enough experience, to answer - let it be audio-questions, RAID-controllers, wlan or hundret others.
This time I can spend on topics where I'm perhaps knowledged enough.

I still don't see where you got the impression, I'm sanctimony.
And which behaviour of mine would you call a 'dressing-down'?

Please don't mistake me for your college fraternity boys.
09-06-2004, 08:48 PM
j.drake
Well, OK, UU, I didn't mean to imply all of this to you personally. It's just that you were the most recent person to offer a justification for offering replies that criticize the manner of newbie questions, and I assumed that it was a global justification rather than a personal one. All of this criticism is not validly yours, and I should have made it clearer that I was generalizing w/r/t a small minority subculture. Honestly, I can't remember all of the users and all of the specifics prompting my reply.

To the extent that you were speaking on behalf of others who have jumped on newbs, the comments stand, but to the extent that you were speaking on behalf of yourself alone, I overstated my reply and owe you an apology. I hope that clears the matter up - I really don't have an issue with you personally.

Having said all that, I really do think that it is rare for newbies to be treated badly here. Rather than focus on the negative, perhaps we need to refocus on the legitimate criticisms and make them better. Here are my suggestions:
- 1. Let's all try to clean up the documentation where we can. It's not fair to turf newbies to documentation when the documentation isn't good. Those of you who are good at scripting fixes, focus on that, and one of us who isn't good at scripting can help with the documentation.
  
  2. Once we get #1 in order, when those annoying repetitive questions come up, instead of reacting or restating, we can simply say "please look here" and offer the link. And there's certainly no harm in telling people about the search box and Docs tab while we're at it.
  
  3. Let's not focus as much on the way others ask questions as we do on the way we choose to answer them.
  
  4. Let's recognize that there are legitimate criticisms of both Linux and Windows, accept it and move on. It's much better to resolve those criticisms than to argue about who has more.
  
  5. Let's try to understand the culture of the new person and how it colors the way in which it they ask their questions, rather than to try to force them to conform to a different culture. Windows users, particularly the ones bold enough to check this community out, are intelligent, knowledgable, and have already demonstrated their willingness to work for knowledge simply by coming here in the first place. But they're going to need more assistance, more reassurance, and more guidance than an experienced *nix user, simply because the underlying cultures and philosophies are so different. If you don't want to give that to them, then don't. Some of us are willing to do that, and we will do what we can.
  
  6. Let's all try to recognize that new people at this site want to learn, but they want to solve their immediate problems first. When they are experiencing an immediate problem, that is not the time to force them into a different curriculum. A Windows person will not become competent in Linux quickly - it will happen over time, and it is unrealistic to expect that they can read any amount of documentation, no matter how good, and instantly become competent in Linux. If we help them with their problems as they arise, the rest will come with experience, and nothing any of us tells them in any post will substitute for gaining that experience over time.
  
  7. Any of us can be humbled. There have been new people posting what I thought were ridiculous questions, yet it turned out that they offered wonderful ideas and insights. Let's keep open minds, even with people we find challenging.
  
  8. In the Windows world, you pay for software, and people get mad at buggy software that they paid for. Sometimes the attitude spills over even when the software is free and supported by volunteer efforts. Let's try to recognize and understand that, and use the opportunity to remind in a positive manner.
My $0.02,

jd
09-06-2004, 09:14 PM
Brack

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.drake

2. Once we get #1 in order, when those annoying repetitive questions come up, instead of reacting or restating, we can simply say "please look here" and offer the link. And there's certainly no harm in telling people about the search box and Docs tab while we're at it.

I prefer to tell people how to find the link ;)

That is, if I'm not too hurried I try to answer like "A search at google for 'keyword1 keyword2' gives <URL> among the first results" or "From www.tldp.org you find Howto XYZ that contains the <Link> to your problem".
Tho I have to admit it's not easy to always answer in that fashion *g*
09-08-2004, 04:01 AM
Ptarmigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagnemojo

In every forum you will find someone who rubs you the wrong way.
(little snip)
find the forum helpful it hardly makes sense to leave due to issues with one member.

Yes, very true, thank you. You speak wisely.
I have been away playing with Knoppix, calming down, composing a "bozo-file" and will be back soon :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by champagnemojo

Besides...you know you want to move to linux. :wink:

Yea, verily 'tis so !
and I am persevering, what I really-really want is a split screen Windoze on the left half and Knoppix on the right :) but I may, instead, have to consult the domestic authority with a view to purchasing another machine !

Thanks to all who have responded elsewhere to my various puzzles, all read and filed for future investigations.

btw, I have been delving, and found cat /proc/pci
which has produced (amongst loads of lines of strange text) a response :
Bus 0, device 9, function 0:
Communication controller: Ambient Technologies Inc HaM controllerless modem

So perhaps Knoppix does know something about my modem ? Atleast to the extent of interrogating it ?
Anyway, ignore that, i'll repost it somewhere soon when I can figure out which forum and which subject header would least risk giving User-Unknown a heart attack !

Malcolm.
09-08-2004, 10:52 AM
user unknown

How about 'Hardware: Ambient HaM controllerless modem'?
While 'Networking: ...' would have it's right too, but I think hardware fits better.
Perhaps this link helps: http://www.modem-help.com/chipsets.php?mid=120&nbd=706
09-10-2004, 03:26 AM
Ptarmigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

While 'Networking: ...' would have it's right too, but I think hardware fits better.

!! you were not supposed to take it so seriously, it was a giggle !

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

Perhaps this link helps: http://www.modem-help.com/chipsets.php?mid=120&nbd=706

No. not a lot. I already have v90 and v92 drivers, thanks to the good offices of other folk on these forums, I just dont know, yet, what to do with them !