Suggestion to Klaus Knopper: release combined 32- and 64-bit base for remastering

Wouldn't it be nice to have a Knoppix base with all the great hardware detection/support on 32-bit as well as 64-bit kernel as a base for remastering, without having to remove any applications and possibly break something ?

I have tried starting with the CD version and just adding to that. All went well, and the result was a KNOPPIX compressed file system sized close to 1 GB. Quite content with my acomplishment, I booted the result with a 64-bit kernel, but much to my dismay the usual fabulous hardware support was gone :cry:

I suggest a barebones Knoppix release version comprised of the basis for the Knoppix DVD with only LXDE desktop and only the applications in the categories System Tools, Universal Access and Preferences, and in Accessories only the bare necessities: File Manager PCManFM, LXterminal and Root Terminal. LeafPad is nice to have, but one can make do with vi if necessary. Knoppix Base should have all the tools necessary for detecting and handling hardware, including printing and wireless networking and Bluetooth and laptop power handling and so on.

When you build the Knoppix DVD version, do you start with a basic platform as described above, and then start adding applications ? If so, could you release this intermediate platform as Knoppix Base ? It would be a great starting point for remastering, and you would also have a nice stable useful milestone in your build process.

Maybe this version could save you a lot of questions about which packets are safe to remove. When people ask that, you could simply refer to the barebones release and say "start from this and add what you want. Don't remove anything."

best regards
Freddy

I second that! It would be marvelous to have the HW detection and file system of Knoppix and the modularity of Porteus. I think it would be possible to do that starting with a bare bones Knoppix. I have tried to strip out the CD version and, like many others I think, come up against some intractable problems (see other forums).

I appreciate Klaus' effort in "getting it all to work together" but there are those of us who would like to take his great work mentioned above and extend it in our own direction.

The Knoppix way of mounting cloop file system overlays is already modularized (http://knoppix.net/forum/showthread....ng-cloop-files) , and maybe this approach could be a way to get a good remastering base:

The basic cloop KNOPPIX should contain the 32 bit base with all the great hardware handling we know and love, and the LXDE desktop with only the bare necessities. This should contain only the applications that presently are on the CD version in the menu categories Knoppix, System Tools, Universal Access and Preferences, and in Accessories only the applications File Manager PCManFM, LXterminal and Root Terminal and maybe LeafPad.

To make the Knoppix version that can fit on a CD, cloop KNOPPIX1 should contain what is missing in the basic 32 bit KNOPPIX cloop in terms of user applications. It should be possible to create the CD version by putting the two cloops KNOPPIX and KNOPPIX1 in the ISO along with the 32 bit kernel and the minirt.gz and the rest that it takes to make a bootable CD.

64bit support should be put in a separate cloop KNOPPIX2 that is only dependant on the basic cloop KNOPPIX and the 64 bit kernel. The 64 bit cloop KNOPPIX2 should contain 64 bit base with hardware handling and 64 bit drivers. This cloop should be built to work on top of the basic 32 bit KNOPPIX cloop. I guess the 64 bit cloop KNOPPIX2 doesn't need to contain user applications.

Finally the big cloop KNOPPIX3 that contains the desktops and the applications that can't fit on the CD. Thus to make the Knoppix DVD version, one should put all four cloops and both kernels into an ISO. When booting this, Knoppix mounts the cloops KNOPPIX, KNOPPIX1 (CD version), KNOPPIX2 (64 bit support) and KNOPPIX3 (desktops and more applications) in that order.

To make a version with 32 and 64 bit hardware support and only a special selection of applications, I can take the basic 32 bit cloop KNOPPIX, the 64 bit cloop KNOPPIX2 renaming it to KNOPPIX1, and put the applications I want into a third cloop KNOPPIX2. Now I can easily make a remastered Knoppix that I'm sure won't be broken, because I haven't removed anything from the base cloops.

Hopefully, this modularized cloop approach won't make too much extra work for the Knoppix developers team. It takes more effort to always keep in mind which packets should go into which cloop.

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.. won't make too much extra work for the Knoppix developers team.

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There is no developers team with many peoples working on Knoppix. Read more about Knoppix and Klaus Knopper.

I understand that. It's seems a shame to me that that is so. I also understand that there have been many derivatives of Knoppix that went in alternate directions. That is a GOOD THING. What some of us would like and don't think is too much of a burden, is for Klaus to release a primitive Knoppix that OTHERS can use to create a modular Knoppix derivative. Unlike my friend above, I don't think it even needs a GUI, in that that could also be a module.

The way I understand the process Klaus goes through is that he get a basic system running, then adds software, and then fixes all the havoc that software creates, while stripping weight (bytes) to fit an enormous amount of software onto a CD or DVD. All we are asking is that he release the initial basic system, so that we can make additions on our own. My dream is to take a basic system and create a Porteus-like modular system on it. This should be possible using the KNOPPIX1 containing filesystem.

Klaus has created a wonderful, useful OS. But, as has been said many times and many places, its usefulness is limited because the CD and DVD versions are "not meant to provide" a daily use OS and it has proven difficult to convert these version to an OS that could be used in that way. By giving us a simple, Debian compliant system, I think that Klaus could enable us to create a wonderful, productive, easily used and modified OS.

I realize it is totally up to him if he decides to do this or not. We're just asking. Please.

I believe KK is a rare visitor within the two Knoppix forums. It is usefull to write your suggestions at the mailinglist.

I think a minimalist knoppix with information about how to add a few specific applications is a great idea. I buy the full DVD for education and testing purposes and plan on continuing. However, when the "dust clears", I only use a few applications like firefox, thunderbird, openshot and maybe the standard office approach - perhaps updates and new installs would run more quickly with a minimalist approach and adding only the software I use?

Thanks for the discussion.

I was in a similar situation as the original poster and so I use http://live.debian.net .Also as long as your hardware is detected by the kernel you are good.or else you can add it to your custom CD.I have done it to add my intel firmware etc to my custom bootable iso.
It is very very easy to get a Debian live working.In fact I have made a blog post(http://bhavesh.freeshell.org/blog/linux/111222333.html) saying 3 simple steps to a custom bootable debian iso image.
Let me know if you have questions as at this point I am fairly well versed with debian live.
Hope this helps you get started.
Yes it would be best if Knoppix had this feature but in the meantime , you can use debian live , because Knoppix 7.2.0 is based on Debian wheezy.

While I would prefer to see Adriane ported upstream and be installable on Vanilla Debian with a simple sudo aptitude install adriane command, it would be nice to be able to start with the Knoppix core and Adriane instead of the full Knoppix CD edition.

The goal is to have a flash drive that can be plugged into any machine I run into and boots into my chosen desktop, with my chosen software installed and available. That way I can carry my computing experience with me, and the only differences between different machine experiences are hardware limitations on some older machines. A unified experience on multiple computers, priceless.

Then, in addition, Porteus-like software injection allows me to add and subtract functionality on the fly, keeping the OS as svelte and fast as possible by only having software that I need for the task at hand. It really is quite amazing.

@patelbhavesh: thanks for the pointer to Debian Live. I got Debian 7.3 up and running and installed the live-build tools and made a Wheezy iive with just the LXDE desktop and no extra applications. ISO is 745 MiB, and I don't even have a browser in it. It will take a lot of work to slim it down to fit on a 700 MiB CD. Klaus Knopper has already made a fine job of of trimming and slimming down a live Wheezy, and that is why I would like to start with a basic Knoppix.

Fun fact: I have tried a full remaster of a Knoppix 7.2.0 CD. All I did was remove Gimp. The compressed cloop was larger than the original one, even though I tried all the settings to get the smallest possible cloop. Klaus knows a few tricks allright !

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Originally Posted by fredvej

All I did was remove Gimp. The compressed cloop was larger than the original one....

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Your new compressed loop probably contains a full complement of Gimp files
plus a few new files showing how to ignore thes files as if they were gone.

You need also to release memory previously assigned to Gimp files to have the effect your want.

I think this could be a very productive thread.

My take on current Knoppix offerings:

Adapting something like the Porteus approach of building a Linux system on
the fly from an assortment of individually pre-selected overlay additions
does look like a reasonable request from this forum's standpoint.

From Klaus K's standpoint, end products of LiveCD and LiveDVD from two
carefully selected, but not individually selectable overlay definitions will
continue to make sense as 'deliverables' in his associations with CeBIT and
LinuxMagazin.

Knoppix is usually configured to use up to eight overlays; one for the LiveCD,
two for the LiveDVD and up to six more for those who care to define them.
Moreover, the current limit of eight may be expanded if the Linux is re-compiled
to define a larger number of cloops. However, there is a trade-off in storage
efficiency in that the more cloops are provided-for, the more memory space may
be assigned but not utilized, if the cloops are not actually used.

Porteus uses squashfs rather than cloops to prepare and handle the overlays.
A squashfs approach may simplify the arrangement of persistence, but offers
very little performance advantage in speed or compaction. Klaus K is the
current maintainer of cloop definition, so trading cloops for squashfs may
not simplify his life any.

Some of us do 99% of our Linux work using a LiveUSB rather than a LiveCD or
LiveDVD. I generally make a Knoppix LiveCD and from that my Knoppix LiveUSB,
but one might alternatively use a PenDrive program to make a LiveUSB directly
from a Knoppix iso.

The LiveUSB is faster and may be less restrictive in size than
either of the CD or DVD media. Optical drives are not even part of some
netbook or low-end laptops; such units usually have USB and/or memory card
readers.

The majority of computers likely to use Knoppix will be 32-bit or 64-bit.
The majority of commonly used software will not utilize or show much
improvement in its operation even if all its 64-bit-programmed potential
is utilized. Where this is not the case is an exceptional case, not the norm.

My suggestion:

Therefor, I would like to suggest, for starters, that we consider a third
alternative standard product, a new 32-bit Baseline LiveCD iso defined as follows:
Same as the current 32-bit LiveCD iso, except leave out IceWeasel, LibreOffice
and Gimp. In the LiveCDs definition of how to make a LiveUSB,
add a Knoppix menu item to the LiveUSB menu with which to prepare
additional LiveUSB overlays. Leave the cloop limitation as it is. Add an
additional Knoppix cheatcode definition to allow a selection of user-defined
overlays at boot time.

I think such a suggestion may be within reason for Klaus K to consider.
It would be nice also to be able to make the initial LiveUSB without an intermediate
LiveCD, but I'll yield on that for now.

I fully endorse what Utu suggests. Live USB is the first step to follow. Minimal basic Live knoppix. Pre-selected overlay additions: game, programming, education, and so on to "expand the capabilities" for those who need.Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blacksimon

...Pre-selected overlay additions: game, programming, education, and so on to "expand the capabilities" for those who need....

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I know this is a nice feature of Porteus, but if Knoppix were to have its own capability to generate overlays, then everyone might define their own overlays. For example, If I had a Baseline LiveCD as I defined, then with Synaptic I'd temporarily add IceWeasel, LibreOffice, and Geany and a few fiddleware settings temporarily to my persistence file and then use the new added capability to roll this into my own unique Knoppix1 overlay.

I am specifically NOT advocating pre-selected sets of overlays, but rather the ablilty to make our own unique overlays from a common,
minimalist Baseline. Agreeing on a Baseline is in itself a hard enough task, there being infinite possibilities.

I appreciate the thought that has gone into this, and I would add my voice to those who see the utility of a minimalist knoppix. My only additional suggestion is to modularize the desktop as well.

The real value inherent in knoppix lends itself to this kind of modularity (squashfs vs cloop notwithstanding). What is the memory overhead for adding cloops?

As far as standard vs roll-your-own modules, I think that those who made cleverly implemented RYO modules could make them available to others. In other words the best of both (and satisfying the anarchist in me, no rules).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwstarke

...cleverly implemented RYO modules..

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If we have Synaptic and a mkisofs utility in the Baseline, we can make our own unique modules.
We needn't ask Klaus K to do what we can easily do ourselves.

In regards to the overhead for increase in the number of cloops, I've heard the problem is
that if eight aren't enough, the next choice is sixteen. If so, whatever the overhead is now,
it doubles this overhead if you want more cloops than eight.

First, I really can't understand why someone should seriously want to confine themselves to CD size distro with 64 bits nowadays, other than for server or forensic purposes. If remastering is the issue, I can ensure you that DVD remastering is a breeze resource-wise, using adequate hardware. You can even perform it in a VM.
It there were a knxbootstrap package, derivative of debootstrap, to create a bootstrap mini-Knoppix, it might have made a little more sense to create 64 bits CD ISOs, but there isn't, and will probably not be for a while - unless someone around takes up the task.

Second, if running 64-bits kernel is the goal, we already have it. For instance, I'm running several 1-2MB instances of Windows and Linux under vmware simultaneously in Knoppix, on a laptop with 16 GB memory, cheatcode knoppix64. As far as 32/64 hybrids systems go, I think Knoppix is close to optimal as it is. I never run with 32 bits kernel unless I am forced to do it. I can understand very well why KK has chosen this route, rather than working with two separate versions of Knoppix.

Third, thinking a lot about cloop details is a dead alley. Several of us have routinely remastered Knoppix with squashfs, and there is really no big deal to drop cloop altogether. But, again, I think KK has his good reasons for sticking to it - which does not force us to follow suit. The main reason I am running from a (second in row) cloop remastering now, is convenience: I haven't taken the time to patch the current minirt.gz for squashfs use.

Fourth, there are several possibilities booting the 64 bits kernel and chrooting into a pure 64 bits environment. I think this is the easiest way to pure 64 bits today.

Fifth, no one stops you from creating a 64 bits version yourself. I did it with Knoppix 6.4.4, by mix'n match with standard Debian, and it works. Compressed size increased some 10-20% with 64-bits package versions. Booting with 64-bits busybox gave some strange "features" though. My main reason for not following this up, is that Knoppix 7.x and the corresponding Debian had grown further apart, and KKs hybrid 32/64 offering provides most of what I normally need.

Sixth, if you compare the init in Knoppix and (for example) Debian live, you willl see that there are several differences in approach, and I personally far prefer KKs way. As far as I can see, also Kanotix has drifted quite far away from Knoppix. Also, putting together a distro like Knoppix is something different from just gathering packages from here and there and lump them together in some kind of tarball. Furthermore, different overlays are very likely to start producing conflicts, which is one reason why I have stuck to the single 4GB cloop/squashfs model, and have rather performed another remastering than creating overlays. But that's me, YMMV.

Seventh, the more bytecode is used in the applications, the less is often gained by compressing. I have started to take Java things out of the compressed image because they consist largely of jars that are already adequately compressed.

All these remarks nothwithstanding, I think that sooner or later, there should be a pure 64-bits companion version to KKs standard Knoppix - and I think 2014 may well be the year to carry out such a project. I don't expect KK to take much initiative in this direction himself, but he has been in no way hostile inthe past :) I don't think multiple overlays is such a grand idea, but sticking for now to ca 4 GB for compressed images, two levels may be practical, with a common 4GB basis, rather similar to the current DVD version, and then different overlays. Being able to distribute on a DVD/ISO might be preferable, and I think most would not need more than one overlay in addition to the basis. Further overlays might then be created by the user as needed, for example the way utu uses them.

utu, I agree that a 32 bit basic Knoppix without IceWeasel, LibreOffice and Gimp would be a very useful base for customizing, and hopefully it won't cost Klaus Knopper much extra work. We must keep his build proces in mind, it's not divided into stages as I suggested.

Regarding adding software on the fly, have you experimented with the update feature as described in knoppix-cheatcodes.txt ? "If you place an update*.zip or update*tar.gz file on the medium holding the KNOPPIX data, it will be unpacked onto the overlayed filesystem before starting "init", thus allowing quick reconfiguration of the system."

@fredvej
1. Thanks, Freddy, for starting this nice thread. We're seeing a nice interesting
interaction among forum members here as a result.
2. I've used the two update features on occasion in the past as a means of preserving
my persistence file material which I am in the habit of catasrophically over-writing
on occasion. However, it is so easy to package, compact and save a snapshot of
persistence with a mkisofs utility, I currently prefer that approach.

@capricorny
1. Greetings, nice to hear from you. I hope you'll post more details of just how you
manage your Knoppix re-masterings.
2. My op ed earlier was slanted toward asking a minimum of Klaus K, trying to stay
within what I think his own framework for producing Knoppix might be.
Other Linux distros have their own minimal configuration from which to build up one's
own tailor-made system. KK could easily dump a 'baseline' iso with very little
additional effort.
3. I think you and I may represent two extremes in using Knoppix. I prefer a mininal
configuration, and like to build up my small Knoppix from overlays. You seem to represent
the 'power user' and can and do tackle larger modifications of Knoppix to get what you
want. One size to begin or end with clearly wont suit both of us.
4. I concur that Klaus K would much prefer a good working example of code for any
suggested improvement of Knoppix. Gilles' contributions to init show how effective this
approach can be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by utu

1.... I hope you'll post more details of just how you
manage your Knoppix re-masterings.
2. My op ed earlier was slanted toward asking a minimum of Klaus K, trying to stay
within what I think his own framework for producing Knoppix might be.
Other Linux distros have their own minimal configuration from which to build up one's
own tailor-made system. KK could easily dump a 'baseline' iso with very little
additional effort.
3. I think you and I may represent two extremes in using Knoppix. I prefer a mininal
configuration, and like to build up my small Knoppix from overlays. You seem to represent
the 'power user' and can and do tackle larger modifications of Knoppix to get what you
want. One size to begin or end with clearly wont suit both of us.
4. I concur that Klaus K would much prefer a good working example of code for any
suggested improvement of Knoppix. Gilles' contributions to init show how effective this
approach can be.

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1. I have already posted the scripts&essential details, but I will update it on the next round of remastering. I dropped 7.2 because of kernel incompatibilities with VMware Workstation 8.X - I didn't want to upgrade WS8 then.
2. I don't completely agree with the opinion that a minimal Knoppix is such a simple task - all the extra issues that have been with CD versions over time clearly demonstrate something else, I think. But of course, something way smaller that the DVD stuffing will suffice. What is needed, is a "knxbootstrap" package as an expanded derivative of debootstrap - and I really wish someone would look into it. Although non-trivial, it shouldn't be that hard to do.
3. I'm not so sure that the same starting point won't work for us - I think it very well could. In fact, I would far prefer starting with something smaller, than running the risky purging business I have to do now, to wipe out some 1-2 GB of unneeded packages. I have totally given up projects to produce a more minimalist Knoppix by extensive purging - always end up with system crashes because the deb package dependencies handling is so far from foolproof.
4. The best way to influence KK is probably to make real improvements that still stay within his "paradigm". Creating auxiliary deb packages could be a way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capricorny

I don't completely agree with the opinion that a minimal Knoppix is such a simple task .

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I only mean it seems like it will be difficult for everyone to agree on what constitures some optimal minimum.
For example, PCLinuxOS and Porteus come with some real small minimal configs, but I always want LibreOffice, Geany and Flash,
even in my most minimal configuration. I can give up gimp and virtualbox, since I don't use them much. I'm sure everyone has
their own mix of 'standard' programs. Klaus K's 32-bit CD image comes awfully close for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capricorny

. The best way to influence KK is probably to make real improvements that still stay within his "paradigm". Creating auxiliary deb packages could be a way.

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I agree in principal. My impression is that KK may accept improvements (code) word-for-word from the pros among us,
but will quite likely reword worthy contributions from those of us less l'arned in the trade. I expect some working script
will usually suffice to get his attention. That is, I don't think one needs go as far as deb packaging if you are onto a good idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by utu

I agree in principal. My impression is that KK may accept improvements (code) word-for-word from the pros among us,
but will quite likely reword worthy contributions from those of us less l'arned in the trade. I expect some working script
will usually suffice to get his attention. That is, I don't think one needs go as far as deb packaging if you are onto a good idea.

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The deb package step is not for KK, but for sharing with other Knoppix users/modifiers. A common problem with all the Knoppix derivatives, is updating. Implementing the modifications as a series of deb packages, and updating those as needed, allows for simple updating of the modified versions with new Knx releases.

As for a workable minimal Knx also suited for 64 bits, I think the CD version plus a few tools may come rather close. A cloop/squashfs image of size 1-1.5 GB should suffice today, I think.

.
For those still struggling with this idea, I suggest you take a look at
the Debian Live project: http://live.debian.net/
This looks like one solution to obtaining a tailored minimalist LiveUSB.
The site says can define your own or use one of their pre-built versions.

Have started following the Debian Live project, yes. For an eventual later merge with Knoppix, I think there may be a substantial amount of adaptation to be done. But for my own part, I don't think there is an alternative right now. I must have a pure 64 bit platform to work from. Could have used Ubuntu instead, but there's much more of an agenda behind that distro. So for purity's sake ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capricorny

I must have a pure 64 bit platform to work from.

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I'm not sure KK has or will commit to a full 64-bit Knoppix.
That may be beyond his needs.
And a lot of work.

Have you looked at 64-bit Mint16 Xfce?

I'm only interested in things that are at least as close to pure Debian as Knoppix. Therefore, I may be a bit too skeptical about Mint, being, essentially, an Ubuntu derivative.
While KK himself has not been interested in making a pure-64 Knoppix so far, he has in no way been negative towards such attempts, and as you well know, current Knoppix is, actually, a hybrid system if you use the 64-bits kernel (which I do as much as possible).
And as soon as we have a package like knxbootstrap working, there will be far less extra effort needed to make a Knoppix-type adaption.
Last time I looked into it, 3 years ago, it looked like Knoppix was way ahead of Debian Live in most respects. Hopefully, they have closed som of that gap now.