A couple of things we Linux users *really* need

Hardware Hell. That's the really big problem with alternative OSes, not including Macs. It's especially frustrating for newbies when they like Distro A but it doesn't support a thingamajig they can't afford to replace (and I'd like to add that it seems like the developers forget that some of us are *poor* since the typical response one gets is go buy such-and-such), but Distro B does support it, even though Distro B is older than Distro A. I believe hardware issues are the real problem for Linux users. The kicker is, there often is a driver for a piece of hardware for your system, but then you have to find it and figure out how to install it (sometimes that's fairly easy and sometimes it's not; Debian/Knoppix supports my ethernet card, fortunately, but in the manual for it are instructions for getting it to run with Mandrake and RH - I've no idea what language that's in, perhaps some scientific code from the 24th century).

What we need is an add-on to apt (or up2date, or whatever) that updates and searches specifically for drivers. Obviously, a list would need to be kept on in your configuration file for the hardware that was detected during setup. This would be convenient even if all of your hardware is supported, as it would get you the latest drivers easily.

Whaddya think?

Another little thing that bugs me. Why is it so difficult to adjust your screen size with most distros? Linux treats 1024 as the default (and is that really a good idea? A lot of us have small monitors and/or not-so-good eyesight) and as I understand it, you have to edit a config file to change it if you didn't specify 800x600 during the install. Windows 98, a 6 year old OS, can change your screen settings easier than that. I know it's a little thing, but it annoys me, mostly because I have a small monitor and a TV out card; I don't want 800x600 on a 24" TV screen, but my regular monitor is so small that I can't see anything with a 1024 setting. And it seems rather primitive, doesn't it?

Other than those two things, I think Linux is perfect. Sure, maybe Wine doesn't work so great without a lot of fiddling with it, but I'm sure it'll get better. People used to complain about installing Linux, and a few distros are still difficult to install, but more are as brian-dead easy as Windows now, as long as you know something about what hardware you have and where you are.

AFAIK, you can change resolution in X by pressing Ctrl+Alt and + or - depending on whether you want the resolution to be lower or higher. It might be Ctrl+Shift, unfortunately I can't remember as I'm in Win XP :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyphoonMentat

AFAIK, you can change resolution in X by pressing Ctrl+Alt and + or - depending on whether you want the resolution to be lower or higher. It might be Ctrl+Shift, unfortunately I can't remember as I'm in Win XP :(

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It's Ctrl+Alt and + or -
But at least in Mozilla Ctrl+Shift and + or - changes the font size so that might also be useful when you are surfing and hit a web page you are having trouble reading.

Thanks! No matter how much I fiddle with Linux, there's always these little tips and shortcuts I hadn't heard of yet, and that's another one. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mistshadow

What we need is an add-on to apt (or up2date, or whatever) that updates and searches specifically for drivers. Obviously, a list would need to be kept on in your configuration file for the hardware that was detected during setup. This would be convenient even if all of your hardware is supported, as it would get you the latest drivers easily.

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I just tried the live eval cd of SuSe 9.0 and it has a driver update function of the Yast 2 module in the control center! Why can't soemone tell me these things *before* I make myself look like an idiot with a display of total ignorance?! :wink: :lol:

Hey Mistshadow,

Welcome to the club [giggle]

I've been using Win98 since it came out, I never "followed" the bandwagon to any of the new OS's by M$, and was content with staying "back in the middle ages" with Win98.

But, ever since seeing, and installing, Knoppix/Linux, first with 3.2, and now with 3.3, I am a mere child. I am CONSTANTLY learning new things about this OS. I've not been using it for very long, maybe about a month now, but, heck, I can remember when I was starting out on this journey, and not knowing how to get a Root password change. Shesh, I've commited that command to memory, I can tell you that.

Now I'm setting up new users, adding new hardware, running updates and upgrades left and right, adding new software, and I am STILL learning.

You know, I guess Linux is good for one thing, and I just realized it, keeping ones mind nimble by daily having to learn new things about it. [giggle]

Cuddles

Well, as long as we're playing wishful thinking, I wish we had something on the order of wine only for drivers. I'm thinking of something on the order of a wrapper that would encompass the M$ driver to make it suitable for Linux. Then we could all just sit back, relax, and whenever that hot new hardware gizmo came out with corresponding M$ driver, then we'd just apply our wrapper, stick the hardware onto our Linux box, and away we'd go.

Turbine, I've heard they're working on somthing just like that, and so far it's worked great on networking hardware. No kidding. I don't have any links, but maybe you can google it. I'm eagerly waiting for the day they can get that working good on all hardware drivers.

Cuddles, you're right, it definitely keeps that little hamster spinning the wheel in one's head, doesn't it? :lol: Not only that, but many distros are quite different; some have this or that feature that others don't. I didn't know what to do when I tried Slack and it said "pppoeconf" was an invalid command. Turns out the equivalent on Slack is "adsl-setup". There's always more to learn, and with Linux there always will be, because it's being constantly improved. Compare that to Windows 98 and the disaster that was ME.

Wow! Mistshadow, that would really give this Linux effort the boost that it needs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turbine

Wow! Mistshadow, that would really give this Linux effort the boost that it needs.

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Running binary-only, often buggy, device drivers through some wrapper is not always a good thing. It reduces the interest in writing a native driver. I don't think Linux NEEDS it, in the short run it might increase popularity somewhat (at the expense of stability) but once M$ monopoly starts to fall apart the hardware vendors will have to support something else too.

Windos_No_Thanks,

I agree with you on that subject...

When M$ becomes "less" popular than it is, hardware, and software, manufacturers, will be starving to produce for "something" to make ends-meet. That "cute" little window that everyone looks for on any new products, may turn into a penguin. People may stop looking for that familiar "Runs in Windows xxx" stuff, and may need to look for "Made for Linux xxx"...

Heck, if we are really looking to the future, for good, or bad...

"Sherman, set the way-back machine to five years in the future...", Yes, Mr. Peabody...

Hardware and software packaging, may, start to LIST Linux in the requirements, and even in the "Drivers Provided" section.

I can fathom that. Walk into a computer store, and look at the next greatest hardware and software, and have listed on the side-panel, Works with Linux, or, Drivers for Linux...

It can happen. Especially, if hardware, or software, creators, realize that another market exists that they can exploit. Right now, they don't care that much. M$ only has provided them a market that they don't seem to have to worry about, as long as they follow the "current" leaders footsteps.

As the market share starts to shift, these companies may start to see some of the profits start to drop, and someone may happen to notice that they have been avioding another market in the world.

I guess, if I am going to put a label on that time, it would be something like: "The Great OS Market Shift", and will be a time when manufacturers come to realize that providing M$ specific products only, may be decreasing the overall profits of the company. That time will be when WinModems go by the waist-side, as something like the OLD XT computer systems, and manufacturers begin to create hardware modems in droves again.

Hardware and software will begin to come out that is either made for ANY OS, or, at least can be "tweaked" for use in "alternate M$ OS's" to get them to work. After that phase of evolution, the next phase will be multiple OS capabile hardware and software, products that run "native" in the OS. The final phase, will be Linux specific hardware and software.

The final phase will lead down the path to marketing research that follows the purchasing of the "Linux" and "M$" products, and then determine which "side" provides a company with its better share of profits under purchasing. Linux, will probably beat out the M$ side on that, and soon after that, more products will be released with Linux, and less with M$. This can be liked to the same as finding any products "now" that provide support for Win95, or even the more older, Win3.x support.

Marketing, or even research and development companies releasing products, will soon realize that the Linux side is WIDE OPEN, and a market that has very few competitors in it. R&D software and hardware companies will realize that, in the case of the Linux community, we are dealing with "last years latest and greatest", and making products that can be used "off the shelf" for Linux, would be swallowed up whole, by the community. If a company can see that having a market that is "waiting" for something, is far more interested in that, than the M$ side, where products are in severe compitition with each other for the lions share in the M$ world, a Linux specific would have a hay-day in purchasing, I think it is only a matter of time.

I'd like to see Linux get as close to M$ as far as the PnP side, but, not to the extent of loosing what makes Linux better than the M$ side. Windos_No_Thanks, this could come from that using "non-native" drivers from the M$ side. By using, I may add, some of those inferior drivers, it may cause the stability of Linux to decrease. And as someone already said, it decreases the "need" for the software/hardware developers to create "native" products into Linux. Why recreate the wheel, when all we need to do is bash out a few kinks in our already created wheel to get it working in Linux. If we begin to walk down that path, Linux may soon be the same kind of OS as M$, and Linux will begin to see the same things that M$ OS's are already plagued with, possibly to the extent of seeing the Blue Screen Of Death in Linux.

Just my thoughts,
Cuddles

Here are a couple of links about it:

http://www.linuxant.com/driverloader/

http://freshmeat.net/projects/driverloader/

Cuddles, I understand where you're coming from, but all of that was said when Wine first came out too. Has its use harmed the development of new software for Linux? I don't think so, not really. More applications for Linux are coming out all the time.

Wine is still in development and it takes a lot of tweaking to get Wine to run Windows apps. I expect we'll see the same with this driverloader when, or if, it's ported to other hardware, or something like it is made for other hardware. Some of it will work, a lot of it probably won't. Considering that, I bet what we'll see is driverloader's (or the equivalent program's) use being concentrated on hardware that there's been little success in getting a Linux driver to work with, such as the winmodems driverloader already works with. But here's the kicker: driverloader isn't GPL, at least I don't think so. So all of the Linux coders who get interested in this are naturally going to want to produce a GPL program that does all that.

Remember, a development such as that will be a big boon to the poor, because as I mentioned in the first post of this thread, they (and I) can't afford to replace hardware, so if it doesn't work with Linux, or you can't find a driver for it, you're just screwed. Never foget the importance of Linux in many poor countries, and even here to the poor in the US.

Mistshadow,

Not just the poor, but, when you consider that when you buy a motherboard, 100% of the modems that are installed directly on the motherboard are WinModems, you don't exactly have much of a choice.

Same is true with Video Cards, Network Adapter Cards, and Sound Cards, all are coming out pre-installed, or more politically correct, hard-wired, on the motherboard already.

This is a great thing, for the consumer, as well as the manufacturer, because you, the consumer, get more "bang" for your buck. But, not if those hard-wired devices don't get supported by your OS. In that case, your dollar just spent for useless hardware, and more money and resources are needed to "re-buy" the hardware you already have, probably in an external "hardware" version of what was hard-wired on your new motherboard - as in the case of me - having to buy an additional external "hardware" modem.

I think the whole idea of a "wrapper" is great, don't get me wrong - it may get a lot of the unsupported "hard-wired" hardware working, and with less cost to either the manufacturers or the consumer - and may help in getting Linux into the "main stream" of the OS martket place.

The nice thing about Linux, and the GPL arena, is, that given time, and a NEED, someone is bound to design something for it. That is where I think Linux is going to surpass the "main stream" OS's - like M$.

As Linux gets more and more "steam", and followers, I think we will see more advancement in the areas that Linux is lacking, because more and more people will be starting to design in, and for, Linux.

I am one of those people. I used to write tons of programs, mostly for the lack of something, in the M$ arena. Now that I have "jumped ship" over to Linux, my programming talent will now be applied into the OS I am using. As soon as I get comfortable in usage, and know what already is done, I will probably start to look at the development tools supplied with Linux, and start to write programs for it (Linux).

I am quite sure I am not the only one who is also doing this. And better yet, I am not a driver programmer, mostly utility, front-end, and back-end software programming, but, I am sure that the many people "coming over" are bringing talents that will supply ideas, and developments, into the OS they are using.

As I said, I used to write lots of programs in the M$ world, heck, it needed it, way back in Win3.x days. In the Win95 days, I had a field day writting programs that were missing in that OS. Even in the Win98 OS, many things were just "left out". So far, I haven't seen anything, that comes to mind, that is "missing", or isn't already included, in Linux already. But then again, I haven't gotten "familiar", or used to, Linux that much yet.

Heck, about the only thing that springs to mind is, a utility program that displays the amount of UPTIME the system has been running. (that was sooooo needed in M$ OS)

I wrote "Uptime" in a mere day, for Win9x and up, to display the amount of computer uptime in a nice pretty interface. Because, as I found out, if the OS was up for more than 12 hours, chances are, it needed a reboot. The idea for "Uptime" in Linux, is not the same need, but to display just how long you have been running, WITHOUT having to reboot. (I think I've been running for days now, and only reboot when I feel guilty, or when that other OS would have required me to)

Oh, one more thing, I just thought of it... In the M$ world, you could get a utility program that went to the Colorado Atomic Clock site, and downloaded the time from the atomic clock site, and updated your computers clock, given the time zone you are in. Haven't gone looking yet, but, that would be a handy little "widget", for me that is, within Linux. So, lets see here, more than three weeks in Linux, and only two programs that I see a need for, hmmmmm, I think in Win98, it was a mere day or two, and I found the "need" for at least twenty programs.

So, Mistshadow, I agree with you, and I think me previous post was not only a little hard, but, unwarrented. I just don't want to see Linux go the same way the Other OS has gone. Linux has a good thing going here - and maybe a good reason for a lot of people flocking to it - I just don't want to see Linux get to be as bad as M$ has gotten, in the stability area, that is.

Just my thoughts,
Cuddles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cuddles

Oh, one more thing, I just thought of it... In the M$ world, you could get a utility program that went to the Colorado Atomic Clock site, and downloaded the time from the atomic clock site, and updated your computers clock, given the time zone you are in. Haven't gone looking yet, but, that would be a handy little "widget", for me that is, within Linux.


Cuddles

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ntp & ntp-simple

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen

ntp & ntp-simple

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Umm, I thought ntpdate was in the default Knoppix, I've just run

Code:

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ntpdate -u hostname.of.timeserver

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and I can't remember installing any package for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by windos_no_thanks

Umm, I thought ntpdate was in the default Knoppix, I've just run

Code:

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ntpdate -u hostname.of.timeserver

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and I can't remember installing any package for that.

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I was just pointing out a couple of packages.

I think overall these are bad because they prevent real drivers being made.

Take the linuxant one...
OK, it works BUT the windows card comes with utilities etc. and you only get half the functionality...

Realistically what windows needs is a kick in the place that hurts most, market share.
Currently something like 94% of desktops run windows with the rest dived into Mac and Linux with a sprinkling of BSD etc.

This is the problem. Writing the mac driver and then making a linux one is trivial and for standard devices like USB mass storgae isn't even needed.

There are also legal issues, the firmware for 54G cards can't be published opensource in the US. This effectively means the rest of the world too if the company want to do business in the US.

However its the critical mass of users that is missing.....

I dream of walking into a shop just after payday and buying a webcam with confidence.... I just bought a useless TV card becuase they changed the tuner chip to an unsupported one even though its the same model.....

Also some companies are good and bad....
Take creative. My NX pro webcam refuses steadfastly to work....
My awe soundcards and DXR-3 have opensource drivers!! this from the same company.

I just got a Samsung laser printer .... total install time in Knoppix about 1 minute and its works great :D but samsung also manufactuer CD drives they don't say works in linux but 'probably do' - Theyre ATAPI so they should!!!


The answer is in your hands....
1) Start copying knoppix cd's to give to friends, aquaintances or just people you pass in the street.

2) when a manufactuer does support linux explicitly email them

3) when a manufacturer makes efforts to prevent a device working under linux (like netgear) email them....

4) keep smiling were getting there :D

Quote:

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A couple of things we Linux users *really* need

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-A better attitude!
-More forgiving of newbies!
-More forgiving of others that don't know a language other than HTML!
-A shower! I bet you haven't left your computer for days!

Hey get with it....
I can't take a shower at the momnet becuase I had to take the electrical supply from the pump and heater to feed my PC's....

Dont you ever READ THE F'IN MANUAL....
:D

I read the whole of 'Dealing with noobies by A. Penguin' and it says that we have to sit on you for six week until you hatch then we push predigested raw mackrel down your throat :D

No seriously good points.....
Its easy to say RTFM but its not always obvious which manual to read!!!

I have to admit I installed my fist knoppix a week ago and accidentally used the wrong script.... it worked anyway but I read the wrong manual....

Then I reinstalled another with the new script and that worked too.

Reading the wrong manual for the wrong script can be more complex than asking someone HOW-TO, and if the answer is a link to a HOW-TO thats fine, but no need to be sarcastic!!!

Ive got years of linux experience but never really learned Debian so knoppix is all new and exciting to me!! But at the same time Im missing some real obvious stuff (like subtlties on APT) which someone coming to knoppix from Debian wouldnt miss.

Its really easy to forget what becomes second nature to you....
Like the number of people saying hey root can't open a graphical app!!!

RTMF my friend !!!
Only its so much nicer to explain the DISPLAY variable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunkah

Quote:

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A couple of things we Linux users *really* need

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-A better attitude!
-More forgiving of newbies!

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I definitely agree with you there. I was at a Linux forum a few months ago that was just awful. Many posts were deleted by moderators who assumed you didn't search first just because you were a newbie. As if that weren't enough, the regular posters would make posts about how tired they were with all the newbies asking for help. "It's so annoying when they put 'help!' in the subject line".

Well, boohoo for them. Frankly, I've never been to a forum where I saw Windows-users complaining about people new to computers asking questions. And then the nerds just like them wonder why Windows is so successful. Maybe because people like them were the first Linux-users they encountered? Grrrrrrrrr.

But I still think making something like driverloader working with hardware that there's been no success on writing a Linux driver is a good idea. Regardless, whatever we think, they're doing it and they're going to keep doing it, because there's just too much hardware that won't work with Linux not to. And when they do, a lot of people who can't afford to replace their hardware will be glad, because they'd have no other choice but to stick with Windows otherwise. Unless of course, those who disagree with the idea would like to pay to replace these people's hardware with more Linux-friendly stuff for them?

Thanks for the back up!

But I forgot one more thing...

This whole Win-blows, Wimp-Blows, Win-Duhs, stuff has to stop! I was funny the first three hundred million times, but now it is just stupid. We all know it sucks, and Windows is the mortal ememy. But too much of a good thing is still too much! For goodness sakes leave it alone!!!

It is time to go after new bait. SCO has a good name to use... go on!

I will start SCO SCucks! They need to be SCOoled with a bat to the SCull!

Mistshadow...
Your right about some forums but also a lot of noobies make mistakes they don't realise.

WinBlows, isn't just a joke its actually trademarked!!! Using it as a trademark to refer to the microshaft OS is just propograting the falsehood that micro$ somehow invented windows.

Some users start topics like "this sucks Im going back to windows unless you help me...." and they are just as bad as the experienced guru's who just say RTFM!!!

But mostly noobies stumble into territory which then don't realise is so hot...
One of the most common is why doesn't <insert distro here> write a driver for my <insert weird hardware here> when I can have it in windows.

The answer is usually <manufactuerer> writes a Windows driver, MS hardly write any, its up to the manufactuer to do it.
Opensource is different, sometimes a manufactuerer will write a driver and this is laudable and to be supported.
But mainly its just a group of people who need the driver. sometimes a single person...

Ive seen the limitations of the SIS graphics driver criticised ...
This is written and maintained by one guy with NO HELP from SIS. He has reverse engineered the whole driver.

The difference is after he did it he shares it....thats what opensource is.
Not only will it be used in Linux but also in BSD and other opensource OS's.

Windows driver wrappers are debateable, now Im not perfect and I intend to try linuxant but overall its a bad thing becuase maufacturers will feel they don't need to write drivers for Linux.

When you buy hardware you pay at least in part for the utilities and software, like nero or photoshop or whatever comes with your hardware.

Even in the best case your paying over the odds for hardware you will only get partial functionality of becuase the accompanying software is usually needed to exploit the device fully.

Noobies are particuarly suceptible to this becuase they have pre-existing hardware, old hands ONLY buy linux compatible hardware so don't have the same frustrations....

On forums, if you go to one and they are unpleasant then don't stop there. Another mistake is posting noobie questions in an experts forum, noobies do this becuase they feel they will get better advice from an expert than from someone reading the noobie forum.

Its unlikely to be the case. Some 'experts' are not people people and stick to the experts but the majority also look through the noobie forums consciencously. Good forums are open and the experts usually spend more time looking to help people than on expert tasks. There are some no-no's like someone posting knoppix questions at debian developer lists is likely to be told to $$$$-off wheras the same question on the help forum would likely get help or even redirection here.

I personally 'support' Mandrake because I started out doing it and I help lots of people, but I don't personally use it anymore. I kinda outgrew it, the unofficial international support board also has many other old hands who don't use it anymore either but still help people and some keep multiple installations JUST to help people!!!!

"I didn't know what to do when I tried Slack and it said "pppoeconf" was an invalid command. Turns out the equivalent on Slack is "adsl-setup". "

Well adsl-setup is the proper command, its the one by rp-pppoe but pppoeconf is a 'wrapper' around the command.

I realise this is confusing but it helps to realise that almost everything in linux is a wrapper for something else becuase code is reused.
In fact rp-pppoe is just a wrapper for using ppp authentification over pppoe.

K3B is a good example.... its a 'front end' to lots of other programs like cdrecord etc. all it is is an interface that passed the right parameters to the right program.
Windows isn't like this.....
nero is written from the ground up becuase there is no code to share, its a monlithic programme.

The same can be said for GRIP, the audio ripper. It uses the common components and really is just a front end to different extractors and/or front ends.

Again its confusing, if you recompile say GRIP for K7 you might think it would run faster. But this isn't the case, the user interface is all you will recompile, if you want it faster then recompile lame or whatever mp3 ripper you wanna use it with!!!

All in all The questions coming to linux from windows are not the same as coming from linux TO windows. This can be a cause of a little friction and misunderstanding when noobies suggest linux should be MORE like windows.

Ok, considering this is The Lounge, for "off-topic", etc... Here goes...

I think a lot of the posts in this thread are valid, they make sense, and some, are down-right on the head of the nail, so to speak.

Newbies = New Users - if they can do what they want to do, in Knoppix, they will stick around, learn, and become, maybe, the next "experts" that can possibly bring in more "newbies".

Anyone, especially someone coming from the Windows World, wants to do what they could do in Windows, but, is looking at other OS's for "unknown" reasons. These reasons could be because of problems they are having in Windows, or, just a good friend, gave them a CD, and said: "Hey, you got to check this out."

As anyone who even went into a job interview, or has met someone for the first time, will tell you: "First impressions mean everything." -=- Any OS has to live with that. I have "lived" with the problems of Windows, having to do things "Microsoft's" way, do this, do that, you need to load this, but not that, etc... for many years now, and finally saw a way out of the "pinguin hole" that "that" company had me in, for so long.

Some close friend handed me the Knoppix CD, and upon booting it, was amazed. More surprising was "how did this get into the world, without me knowing about it?"

I became an instant Linux User. Unfortunately, as I am sure, many here can attest that nothing in the Windows World always works in the Linux World. So, what options does a "newbie" have? Well, they can go down to the local Computer Store, and talk to a salesman, or a computer tech. -=- Chances are, they will just be standing in front of them, jaw dropped to the ground, spewing out things like: "what? you don't like Windows?", or "Hmmmm, Nippox? Strange name? What does it do? Where did you get it? IS it REALLY an Operating System? Or, does it run under Windows?" kind of stuff. In essence, the person going into the store is more informed on Knoppix than the store.

More likely, the "newbie" will hit the Knoppix website, and soon find the Forums. Pleased that they may find others that "may" be having the same issues they are, or, maybe even the "newbie" can ring in one or two topics that they feel qualified on, but mostly, they see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, to possibly get answers. Considering about 50% of The Lounge posts are subjects like: Just Tried Knoppix, and I couldn't be happier! kind of stuff, and the other 50% are posts for help. Some questions are simple, some are complex, but in the eyes of a "newbie", they have no basis to judge that decission on. To them, all problems are complex, once you know the answer, then it may become simple.

I used to work for Microsoft, as a Telephone Repair Technician, for the release of Windows95 -=- shows my age, huh? -=- In just 30 seconds with a customer on the phone, you had to decide these things:

1) The Problem - which is hard to get out of someone sometimes - "I didn't do anything, and ALL OF A SUDDEN, it crashed." - the problem mostly stems from, they don't want anyone to blame them for doing something, but this causes problems in resolution, because you don't know what caused something, to resolve the effect.

2) The resolve - this now gets into sub-issues though, sometimes the resolve was repointing a icon back to something, or, in most cases, it required a little "tweaking" of the Operating System - in 30 you had to decide how much a person is "knowledgable" to decide what you resolve may be.
A) Newbie - Do not show them "regedit", nor allow them to remove the screws on the back of their own computer. Resolve: Take your computer to the Repair Shop.
B) Somewhat - Just a little above a Newbie, same resolve as a Newbie, except that you don't have to explain how to get their.
C) Novice - They know they have screws in the back of their computer, and have had them off many times. Resolve: No regedit, but they can play in their own computer.
D) Advanced - (problem case) They think they know more than me, but, they called me for help, why? -=- First you need to knock them down a few rungs, so you can work with them, or the whole phone call will be wasted listening to how many degrees they have from all the Universities they have attended. Problem with that, it doesn't solve the problem the Customer is calling about.

Add in to all of this, the fact that if the Customer calling was a male, they didn't think "I" could help them, because I was a female, and they wanted to talk to a male because they knew more than me... Sheesh, what a load of cr*p! I was trained just the same as the other gender, but, NOOOOOOOO, I am inferior or something....

Ok, so here is the point from all of this... A newbie needs something, either fixed, resolved, or just a simple question, and may feel that they are the ONLY ONE who ever had this issue. I have seen some of the posts, and when a person askes them for information from their system, like the output from dmesg, they go defensive: "Why do you need to see that? Whats in the output? Is it going to give out all my passwords? Or is it going to tell someone that I have naked pictures of girls in folder xxxxxxxx?" - Anyone who has tried to help a newbie out, can truely see this attituide, but why is it their? Someone is not sure, a true newbie. It almost takes a little hand holding to get something out of them, to help them out.

Once they know what they are doing, and why, they are more than likely to volunteer information, more than probably is necessary. "Well, dmesg tells everything that the system has found as 'hardware', or 'devices', like your mouse.", ohhh, ok, here you go... They will probably even examine the output themselves, and begin to learn more, and maybe even find out what is going wrong, just need help in why it says I have this, when I really have this, kind of stuff... (and if they have porn in folder xxxxxx, it won't be sending it to their local police to turn them in or something)

What Knoppix needs is MORE newbies, what Knoppix's Forums need is more posts like: "HELP - How do I do [this]?", even if they are something as simple as "How do I log in?" - People are a strange breed, they want a "personal touch". They have been led into this sterile world, and need to feel a "person" at the other end. These Forums are a perfect example of that. Someone wants a "person" to help them out, not read through billions of posts, or pages of "FAQ's", but to have a person help them out. I realize that that could cause the servers here on Knoppix to go belly-up, and that one post would be the same as a previous post, but, first impressions count. I enjoy helping people out, I'm not a psycologist [sp], I can't even spell it, but, when I got help with one of my problems in Knoppix, I waited dilligently for an answer to it, and while I waited, I browsed the forums looking at what other people were having problems with, and started to learn more commands, more things, etc...

Linux has a very large "learning curve", more so than Windows, and Windows doesn't have as many 'hardware' problems than does Linux. Hardware is a newbies worst nightmare. People just want to "plug and play", and with Windows, they usually can. Sometimes this is possible in Linux, but more often than not, it isn't. I am sure, that if they ever invented a hardware device that someone doesn't have to open their computer and put it into it, they would make trillions of dollars on the device - because a newbie doesn't even want to do that, mostly. Worse is when it doesn't work.

Maybe what Linux Users "really" need is: to put themselves in the shoes of a newbie. Step back from all that you know of Linux, and take the perspective of what a "newbie" sees. Terror, guilt, ashamed, fear, stupid, lame, idiot, but they have one thing, they are asking for help. All the emotions stem from "they know they don't know, and they feel bad for it, but they want to know, and are asking." - As a old school teacher once said: Their are no stupid questions, only stupid people who don't ask.

I commend newbies for asking the most lamest of questions, I am really quite sure, they don't know the answer. BUT, after you reply to them, they do. Does that really deserve a sarcastic attituide? Or a snippy remark? Everyone was a newbie once, no one was just "born" with what they know. Give a newbie a chance, and they won't be a newbie anymore.

Just my two cents worth,
Cuddles