Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Help to make klik better

  1. #1
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,159

    Help to make klik better

    klik could be even better if KDE would support AppDirs - folders that that launch the application when the folder is clicked in Konqueror. I have reported this wish to the KDE bugtracking system, and in order to get the attention of the KDE developers it would be nice if you could also vote for this feature. To do so, please go to http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81772 , click on "Vote" and give it (bug # 81772) 20 points. You have to register with the KDE bug tracking system in order to vote.

    Your vote makes KDE and klik even more powerful. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,159
    Apple describes it this way:

    "A bundle is basically a directory that contains an application. Unlike normal folders, however, it appears to the user like an ordinary file. The user can double-click a bundle, and the application will launch. Since the bundle is really a directory, it can contain all the support files that are needed for the application."

    http://developer.apple.com/documenta...section_2.html

    It would be great to have the functionality described in KDE, so please vote.

  3. #3
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    436
    No!

    Don't vote for this!
    A directory is a directory and nothing else.

    What a crude idea!

    Must come from somebody, who has a monopol, and thinks, a html-file is a ms-html-file, and should allways and only be opened with IE.

    What, if the folder is clicked by firefox, mozilla, opera, midnight-commander?
    What, if you put a file there by accident?

    You cannot adopt the ideas of an apple for linux, because the whole system-architecture wasn't meant for that on linux, but was on the apple.

    And mixing the concept in will produce confusion, misbehaving and bugs.

    Go, buy an apple, and be happy.

  4. #4
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,159
    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    What, if the folder is clicked by firefox, mozilla, opera, midnight-commander? What, if you put a file there by accident?
    Simply nothing (just as it is now), especially nothing bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    You cannot adopt the ideas of an apple for linux, because the whole system-architecture wasn't meant for that on linux, but was on the apple.
    Apple has many good philosophies that can be taken to other systems as well. (And, in fact, always were. I talked to the inventor of the Mac GUI recently and in fact most of the KDE concepts indirectly come from Apple...)

  5. #5
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    436
    The last time I used a Mac is more than 10 years ago, and I never owned a Mac myself.
    So I don't know to much of its inner technics.

    When resources (?) are installed with the application in a folder, how are multiple users handled?
    Linux is per se a multi-user system, while MacOs isn't.

    What's about shared resources, like libxml, libjpeg, ...?
    Is /dev/modem a resource too?

    Will the data be stored in the same folder?
    Can the technic handle multiple versions like 3.14-stable, 4.0-beta?

    When I run a program, I call its name - no need for browsing and clicking.
    A normal linux-distro comes with over 2000 executables - browsing for them would be annoying, if they where located in 2000 different folders.

    With 3 characters from a-z you may address more than 17.000 apps on the commandline.
    Uppercase-letters and numbers are allowed, but seldomly used (SciTe, txt2pho, fish4all, ...), therefore I dont calculate with 62 different characters.

    For often used programs, I have an easy to use context-menu, which opens on right-click on a free place at the desktop (which is allways there, because I use tabs for the application-frame).
    The menu contains my Top-10 apps, which are - to be accurate - 13, including a submenu with all the seldom used stuff, 'configure' and 'exit'.
    To change it, I call my editor and open ~/.fluxbox/menu, edit, save, call 'configure-reread config' and - voila. (No restart/ reboot) neccessary.

    A good application should have a menu for recently used files, and as a nice, sophisticated extension, kate for instance, offers the possibility to add folders to its own list of preferred directories to search for files to open.

    I never use konqueror to start an application.

  6. #6
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,159
    Sorry, this post is slightly OT, since I defend the general idea of AppDirs here.

    user unknown, please look at the general architecture of klik on http://klik.berlios.de/architecture/ - klik does all of that today already. The only thing I propose is that KDE should have a way to start the wrapper automatically when the AppDir is clicked.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    The last time I used a Mac is more than 10 years ago, and I never owned a Mac myself. So I don't know to much of its inner technics.
    A lot has changed since then, the Mac OS is now Unix.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    When resources (?) are installed with the application in a folder, how are multiple users handled?
    AppDirs allow users to install apps in userspace. But you could of course also install them to /opt, making them available system-wide.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    What's about shared resources, like libxml, libjpeg, ...?
    The common ones stay where they are. The less common ones go into the AppDir of the application that needs them. That way each app can have its own matching version of libraries without the danger of messing the whole system. /dev/modem is a systemwide thing, but libtiniweeny-0.6.so not (since not many apps use it).

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    Will the data be stored in the same folder?
    The data that belongs to the app: yes (such as help pages, icons etc), userdata: no (goes still to ~)

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    Can the technic handle multiple versions like 3.14-stable, 4.0-beta?
    Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    When I run a program, I call its name - no need for browsing and clicking.
    You could still do this, but you are not the average point-and-klik user.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    I never use konqueror to start an application.
    You don't have to, but I would like to. As a fluxbox user, you are completely unaffected by the progresses in KDE

  7. #7
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    436
    Quote Originally Posted by "probono"
    user unknown, please look at the general architecture of klik
    (...)
    AppDirs allow users to install apps in userspace. But you could of course also install them to /opt, making them available system-wide.
    (...)
    The common ones [resources, uu
    stay where they are. The less common ones go into the AppDir of the application that needs them. That way each app can have its own matching version of libraries without the danger of messing the whole system.
    (...)
    You could still do this [start from CLI, uu], but you are not the average point-and-klik user.
    (...)
    You don't have to, but I would like to. As a fluxbox user, you are completely unaffected by the progresses in KDE
    I'm just testing it.
    Beeing a crude mixture of modern and conservative, and very sceptic, you won't have an easy job to convince me.
    But to be fair, I have to give you a try , and sometimes I try to fight my prejusdices.

    My first installation didn't asked where to install - it just installed to my home-dir.
    That's a big minus.
    You remember: 2000 apps - that's not tolerable in my home-dir.
    A directory /home/unknown/apps/
    and every app there would be ok.
    But I need to have an overview of my home.

    Another observation was, 'Warning: Invalid service: Knoppix/Net/kppp.desktop".
    Which didn't seem to be a real problem.

    But I was asked to help a few minutes - I answered 'ok' - and then I was told, konqueror would be started.
    Firefox started and told me 'already running - new profile?' - which ended the possibility to help there.

    Different libraries are gracefully handled by linux today with version-numbers, and symbolic links:
    libfoobar.so-> libfoobar.so.3
    libfoobar.so.3-> libfoobar.so.3.4
    libfoobar.so.3.4-> libfoobar.so.3.4.7
    libfoobar.so.3.4.7
    libfoobar.so.2.9.16 (needed for an old application)
    - no dll-hell like windows.

    How do I start klik? I thought of 'klik' but no 'klik' in path...

    Yes - I'm not the average klik-user, but perhaps the average linux-user?

    And your solution only works with kde?
    That's one of these annoyances.

    I installed DBDesigner with klik, and it seemed to work.
    Trying to start it, it shows 'Symbolic links exist. Starting dbdesigner.'.
    Then silent exit.
    (That's the wrong way on Linux/ Unix! Make it just the opposite! Silent, when ok (Symlink exist) and noisy, on errors.
    See the OpenBook from Eric S. Raymond: The Art of Unix Programing: 'Silence is golden' here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/ta...l/ch11s09.html

    Of course I found the DBD4.log, here is what it says:
    Runtime error 234 at 0805DECF

    I get the same result when starting from CLI - so the cryptic error-message is fault of the DBDesigner4 - developer, not kliks one.

    If I had installed from source, I could investigate on that error, where it comes from, and so on...

    I found out, that in the lib-dir, a lot of libraries are installed, which are already installed in /usr/lib etc.
    That's annoying.
    You waste internet band-width, harddrive-space, and a lot of time.
    An updated library has to be put to every user, and every app.
    You said 'the common ones stay where they are' - (resources, libs?).
    That's a real big minus. Why don't you ship new computers for every app?

    Another issue: Your script (dbdstart) contains a lot of backtics.
    They're deprecated.
    Instead of
    Code:
    foo=`echo "$0"  | sed '....'`
    #use
    foo=$(echo "$0"  | sed '....'')
    which is
    a) better readable
    b) nestable

    Another small:
    The directories are called 'Data, Doc, Linuxlib, ...'
    That's MS-style, where nobody uses CLI.
    Perhaps your users like to use klik and CLI, and then lowercase letters are faster to type.
    And the average linuxuser should know, that his machine is running linux - so 'lib' would be enough. (Perhaps again a DBDesigner-issue and not a klik-one.)

    But some nice words shouldn't be missed:
    The way the installation started from the web seems to be very userfriendly, and looked nice.
    I will test a second one.

  8. #8
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    436
    Well - I installed digikam, and it seems to work (while it seems to be a much smaller application).

  9. #9
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,159
    Thanks for your insightful comments. I am always interested in how to make thinks newbie-friendly without upsetting power users.

    Perhaps I should make one thing clear first: the idea of klik is to make third party software usable on the Knoppix Live-CD, which is read-only. So everything must run in userland, without root privileges, without write access outside of ~, and single-user. Also, the majority of software comes preinstalled with the Live-CD. klik just adds a few apps that are not on the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    My first installation didn't asked where to install - it just installed to my home-dir.
    That is what makes sense on Knoppix, but you can move AppDirs anywhere (at least in my latest version of the wrapper). It would be absolutely easy to ask the user where to put the AppDir first. Probably I will include that in the next klik version.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    Firefox started and told me 'already running - new profile?' - which ended the possibility to help there.
    klik is at the moment a KDE thing. Please set up Konqueror as your default browser. The idea of "profiles" is purely a Firefox thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    How do I start klik? I thought of 'klik' but no 'klik' in path...
    By clicking on a klik link in Konqueror. (Again, I develop purely for KDE, but if you want to, you can write a protocol handler for Firefox, too. No problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    I installed DBDesigner with klik
    The DBDesigner issues you describe are not klik-related.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    I found out, that in the lib-dir, a lot of libraries are installed, which are already installed in /usr/lib etc.
    That's annoying. You waste internet band-width, harddrive-space, and a lot of time.
    Well... You can copy the DBDesigner folder over to another machine... and it will run! But I agree, there should be some universally agreed standard on which libraries are the "core system" (and expected on any machine) and which ones are "special" (and must come with the app that needs them). Another possible solution is serverside-apt, which I am developing. It will check which libraries are installed on your machine and download only the missing ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    An updated library has to be put to every user, and every app.
    No, only apps that need the updated library will have to come with it. Just like the Mac. I don't want that my running core system gets touched (in fact, with Live-CD it can't) just because one app needs a newer version of a lib. The core system should never be touched just to make an app run.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    Why don't you ship new computers for every app?
    That would ensure everything runs flawless! (Indeed, I would love to have a virtual machine for each app so that an app behaves deterministic and can't mess with the rest if the system. But that's really overkill then...)

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    Another issue: Your script (dbdstart) contains a lot of backtics.
    That's DBDesigner's script, not mine. But thanks for the info, I also used backticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by user unknown
    The directories are called 'Data, Doc, Linuxlib, ...' That's MS-style, where nobody uses CLI.
    again, DBDesigner's. Install quanta, for example, and you will see /usr,... etc.

  10. #10
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    436
    Well - developing for live-cd users is a special issue - I see.

    I only fear, that the people will try to use it afterwards, when switched to a hd-install, and claim for the same comfort.
    As newbies they will not see the price they have to pay for this 'every app its own lib, every user his own app' so easy.
    And after using it a year, they're addicted to this policy.

    For non-DSL-surfer it might be an expensive experience too.

    But for those, who like it that way, it's a good work I guess, and I hope my backtic-hint may compensate you for my stubbornness.

    For a developer, what do you have to do to make your work klik-able?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 04-23-2005, 05:02 AM
  2. Klik?
    By glimpse in forum Klik
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-30-2005, 07:46 AM
  3. How to make my own klik program???
    By morgan73 in forum Hdd Install / Debian / Apt
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-16-2004, 08:51 PM
  4. Replies: 210
    Last Post: 12-04-2004, 03:04 PM
  5. make menuconfig / make dep
    By Lord1981 in forum Hdd Install / Debian / Apt
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-04-2004, 10:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Dell R730xd 12LFF 2.4Ghz 12-C 192GB H730 2x10G+2x1G NIC 2x1100W 12x Trays Rails picture

Dell R730xd 12LFF 2.4Ghz 12-C 192GB H730 2x10G+2x1G NIC 2x1100W 12x Trays Rails

$807.05



Dell PowerEdge R720XD Xeon E5-2680 V2 2.8GHz 20 Cores 256GB RAM 12x4TB picture

Dell PowerEdge R720XD Xeon E5-2680 V2 2.8GHz 20 Cores 256GB RAM 12x4TB

$510.00



Dell PowerEdge R730XD 28 Core Server 2X Xeon E5-2680 V4 H730 128GB RAM No HDD picture

Dell PowerEdge R730XD 28 Core Server 2X Xeon E5-2680 V4 H730 128GB RAM No HDD

$389.99



Dell PowerEdge R620 Server 2x Xeon  E5-2620 @ 2.0GHz 64GB RAM NO HDDs picture

Dell PowerEdge R620 Server 2x Xeon E5-2620 @ 2.0GHz 64GB RAM NO HDDs

$108.96



DELL PowerEdge R630 8SFF Server 2x E5-2690v3 2.6GHz =24 Cores 32GB H730 4xRJ45 picture

DELL PowerEdge R630 8SFF Server 2x E5-2690v3 2.6GHz =24 Cores 32GB H730 4xRJ45

$263.00



Dell PowerEdge R730XD 28 Core Server 2X Xeon E5-2680 V4 H730 32GB RAM No HDD picture

Dell PowerEdge R730XD 28 Core Server 2X Xeon E5-2680 V4 H730 32GB RAM No HDD

$289.99



Dell PowerEdge R710 2.5

Dell PowerEdge R710 2.5" 2U Server 2x X5670 2.93GHZ 12-Core 128gb 2x 1TB SAS

$114.99



Dell Poweredge R730xd 2.5in 2x E5-2690 v3 2.6ghz 24-Cores  64gb  H730  2x 750w picture

Dell Poweredge R730xd 2.5in 2x E5-2690 v3 2.6ghz 24-Cores 64gb H730 2x 750w

$189.99



DELL PowerEdge R730 Server 2x E5-2690v4 2.6GHz =28 Cores 128GB H730 4xRJ45 picture

DELL PowerEdge R730 Server 2x E5-2690v4 2.6GHz =28 Cores 128GB H730 4xRJ45

$476.00



DELL PowerEdge R430 8SFF 2x E5-2620v4 2.1GHz =16 Cores 32GB H730 4xRJ45 picture

DELL PowerEdge R430 8SFF 2x E5-2620v4 2.1GHz =16 Cores 32GB H730 4xRJ45

$205.00