What's the point in knoppix/beginner style hd-install?

[Markus]

Would someone please explain this to me as I really don't get it.
Yes, you get hardware autodetection, but how many people really switch hardware every other week or so? Testmachines? why not. The lack of security compared to debian style is IMHO quite severe with autologin and lack of passwords for ttys.

[Cuddles]

Markus

I can't agree more, the only thing I can think of is... That this "beginner" install would be just like a hard drive installed booting of the CD. That way you get your persistant home and configs, but still have all the other limitations of booting from the Live CD. (?)

Your guess is as good as mine, from what I hear, not having v3.4 yet, and only going off what issues are being "posted" here in this site. Maybe its an "evolution" of the "poor man's" hard drive install? In a way, I want to think that the reason was for people who don't want to use the CD, but want to install it, but, my cross-thinking is, why? I would much rather have the Live CD on a "CD" for the recovery and utilities of thus. Then again, this was probably from a "suggestion" in the "Ideas" Forum, how about in a classroom setting? You could "install" Knoppix to a Computer Lab's machines, and still let everyone work on using GNU/Linux, but have it easier than having to always have a CD in the drive?

Just some ideas, I really don't know why, but, I am sure, this forum is going to be dealing with people who "accidently" install with this option, and wonder why its just like the CD for doing things, and not able to do things...

Ms. Cuddles

[Markus]

Thanks for your thoughts Cuddles, you're probably right on all accounts.

Just some ideas, I really don't know why, but, I am sure, this forum is going to be dealing with people who "accidently" install with this option, and wonder why its just like the CD for doing things, and not able to do things...

Bingo! Part of the mystery to me is why it's named beginner. My first spontaneous thought when installing for the first time and seeing the options would be:"Great. I'll just choose beginner mode and let the installer choose the default packages for me".

I can see the usefullness at having these options, but I do think they're named misleadingly. Especially beginner mode.

[Cuddles]

Not sure here, but, I would say default and beginner could be the same way...

When asked, during an install, for default mode, I would think that would be what you are thinking... Whereas, beginner mode, does sound closely to that, ( I've done way too many Windows installs, and the term "default settings", or "default options", are used a lot to install "standard" options or features ). I never use them, I usually use the "custom" installs, because I want to know just what it is installing, and how.

But, I, again, agree with you on the terminology of the usage of "beginner". It has many conotations, from beginner as just learning, to beginner as not having things enabled on you. This all sounds like they should have come up with an advanced, or guru install option... ( if they did, it probably just drops to a Command Line Interface, and says: "OK, you do it then! If your so smart" ) LOL

As a side note though: this "beginner" option isn't like the "window decorations" option, during booting/installing, because with the window decorations, if you accidently set them too high, you can still go back and decrease them, without having to re-install. Not so, it appears, with this "beginner" mode.

Just some thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles

[Markus]

This all sounds like they should have come up with an advanced, or guru install option... ( if they did, it probably just drops to a Command Line Interface, and says: "OK, you do it then! If your so smart" ) LOL

Oh well, 240.5 MB down and counting, so I'll have a look at how it's like. There is surely a grand thought behind these namings the purpose of which completely eludes me. In the mean time I'm quite happy with knoppix&kanotix and the minor quirks aren't going to change that.

Cheers

[champagnemojo]

I don't know all the merits and demerits of it, so I can't speak for or against it. But I do think it might be good to take off the "preferred way" designation it has in the installer script.

[probono]

I vote for the addition of a "total newbie" intallation option which does the same as "tohd" plus install a GRUB bootloader.

[Cuddles]

Not sure about this, I don't have, nor installed, v3.4 yet, soon though, but...

I think a little more descriptive dialog on what the "install options" do, or don't do, would greatly enhance the whole process. In Windows, you can select, or highlight, the option, and it explains what it does, and doesn't install, or set. One line text that only tells you what the option is, is, way to non-interactive. Sometimes a list of what options are available, is not enough for someone to make a descision on.

Even in Windows, you have "Typical", "Everything", and "Custom" - but you highlight it, and it will tell you what most of the options it will include are. If a person is going to install a Operating System, and not be able to change those options unless they re-install again, that can be rather limiting, especially if it doesn't tell you what you are going to miss, or not get, if you choose that option.

For me, I was daunted by the "one liner" install options in v3.3, what was Samba, do I really need Network programs and utilities, and such. I had no clue what Samba was, or what I would use if for, I don't have a network card, so, not knowing what service it was called, or the "sniffing" utilities, was useless for me, but it installed them anyway. I did a "normal" hard drive install, and then spent a few days "ripping out" all the stuff I don't have, don't need, don't use, or would ever use. This kind of thing is far too much for someone who just gets there feet wet in Linux.

Windows, at least in v98, and v95, had an intuitive installer: it looked at the hardware you have, and determined what was needed to run it, support programs, utilities, etc... If it found a modem, it set up internet, common dialers and scripts for them. If it found a sound card, it set up stuff for sound, etc... Knoppix already does the "hardware detection", just seems to throw it away when it comes down to "programs" for them, it assumes you have everything, and does everything, even if you don't have it.

During the v3.3 install, it asked me if I wanted Samba started at boot, first thought was, what is Samba? Then, what if I do, and what if I don't run it? Will the system boot still, and when would I use Samba????

Knoppix, by its installer, assumes you know "everything" about Linux, or Knoppix, all of its programs, etc... And a newbie, as I was, doesn't have a clue about anything this stuff is, or what it does. Maybe the installer could be "elaborated" a little... ( ? )

Do you want Samba installed?
(Samba is used for xxxxxxxx, or if you need support for xxxxxxx)

Do you require network card support?
(this would include network programs and sniffing utilities. Does your system connect to other computers, other than the internet, through a cable plugged between your computer and another computer in the building? This would be network support)

Do you need support for PCMCIA cards?
(don't know what a elaboration of this would be, used to be on a laptop only, but not any more)

As it was in v3.3, I was only asked about Samba, and no help provided on its usage, or intent. Knoppix, from looking at its installer, lends itself to the "image" its for "techies", because you have to speak its own language, and newbies don't know the "lingo" do answer these kinds of questions.

Just my thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles

[cintra]

I vote for the addition of a "total newbie" intallation option which does the same as "tohd" plus install a GRUB bootloader.

I totally agree about adding GRUB!

And I am still wondering what beginner mode actually provides? Can no one give a CLEAR answer?

I have it installed on my system, but am closer than I ever thought I would be to removing it, and simply using the LiveCD when needed - its original purpose I understand..

On the other hand, I saw your latest klik collection today, and was impressed by the additions, so I'll give some of those a try first

regards

[champagnemojo]

Can't you install GRUB instead of LILO now? I'm almost certain that the install script will allow it now, if you edit the .knofig file in the appropriate place. I think I did so in fact when I was messing around with it...unless I'm just going crazy.