hard drive partition required to run knoppix w/o live-cd?

[ishaim]

new to linux.. i want to install knoppix to my hard drive so that i can save configured settings and what have you, but is a hard drive partition necessary to boot knoppix without the CD? if so will that affect windows? are there any other options besides partitioning your hard drive to run knoppix without the cd?

[dobell]

Hi:

You can install knoppix with knoppix-installer. If you choose install it as knoppix, not debian, it will be copied to your hard drive and will run without partitioning.

But if you like a 100% linux system. you will have to make changes on your hard disk. You can use qtparted to resize and create new partitions. It is very easy to do it.

[ishaim]

is "qtparted" a program that comes with the knoppix distro? do i type that at the live-cd boot screen, or get to it through the GUI?

someone had mentioned using partition magic 8 to partition for knoppix, but if qtparted is as reliable and stable, i may as well just use that.. there are a few things about partitions that i'm still not sure of..

say you want a dual boot loader.. which so far sounds like it's what i want (wanting to install knoppix to hard drive, leaving windows intact, and being able to choose between windows or knoppix).. what exactly is meant by dual boot? the option to boot EITHER windows or linux, or to have both actually booted at once, being able to choose between the two flawlessly.. i can live with the former but if the latter is true as well, i'm in heaven

while on the topic of dual boot loaders.. how would you switch between OS' in the first place?

as for partitioning.. i'm not sure but it seems that partitioning can in a way be similar to formatting the hard drive.. i remember someone telling me that partitions are broken up into different sections (for swap? virtual memory?) and that one of the sub-partitions stores the knoppix system files.. is this like the windows directory in windows, except in partition form? (storing core windows files in a certain partition

ahh confusion!! yes i am very unclear on the partitioning business

[ishaim]

this i am especially confused on

But if you like a 100% linux system. you will have to make changes on your hard disk. You can use qtparted to resize and create new partitions. It is very easy to do it.

i don't mind a little change on my hard disk as long as it's a matter of a simple partition, leaving windows intact, and nothing more.. which is why i am looking at a dual boot loader, but that's seeming like a bit more than i can chew at the moment..

is a dual boot loader necessary if you have windows and knoppix both installed to the hard drive? or does it just make switching between the two easier? how easy is it to switch with/without a dual boot loader, or is it even possible without one?

thanks for reading

[scruffyeagle]

this i am especially confused on

But if you like a 100% linux system. you will have to make changes on your hard disk. You can use qtparted to resize and create new partitions. It is very easy to do it.

i don't mind a little change on my hard disk as long as it's a matter of a simple partition, leaving windows intact, and nothing more.. which is why i am looking at a dual boot loader, but that's seeming like a bit more than i can chew at the moment..

is a dual boot loader necessary if you have windows and knoppix both installed to the hard drive? or does it just make switching between the two easier? how easy is it to switch with/without a dual boot loader, or is it even possible without one?

thanks for reading

Hi, ishiam!

I'll try to answer a few questions here. Please bear with me, if I get some of it wrong - I'm a newbie too, working on learning.

1) Knoppix off CD runs by decompressing the file as it functions; i.e., it seeks what it needs as it needs it, via decompressing on-the-spot. A full HD installation of Linux from the Knoppix installer installs a Debian Linux which lacks the Knoppix hardware search utilities during its boot-up. Being a true Debian system, it requires its own partitions to function. In order to live on the same HD w/ Windows, and have both OS's still available would definitely REQUIRE use of a dual-boot loader like LILO or GRUB. Installing a Debian system would wipe out the MBR, so there are things you need to do to prepare beforehand, making backup copies of the Windows boot-up stuff. I can't help you with exactly what though, because I've been working on learning via my backup computer - and, dedicated it to only Linux; i.e., I haven't had to deal with it.

2) You can do an installation which copies the Knoppix image off CD onto the HD, and runs it from the HD as if from CD. There's even a way to do it without use of a boot-loader. (I've read this in other posts, although I don't fully understand it.) Basically, it would work via starting up Windows and then running Knoppix from within Windows. What it would do after that, I really can't describe; i.e., I can't describe what I don't fully understand.

So, when you read someone talking about a "100%" Linux, or a "Debian install", the difference is really issues re. hardware detection during boot-up.

QPARTED is a Linux program that's available from within the desktop environment. I don't know if it's available from command line interface, but I suspect not. It's found via the "K" menu. One of the items on the "K" menu has QPARTED listed on its pop-out submenu.

Yes, you would need to use some other program for repartitioning your hard drive. Use of QPARTED would end up invalidating the HD recordkeeping that Windows does, and Windows would almost certainly crash thereafter. If you use something like Partition Magic, I do know that you need to properly defragment your HD first - gotta move all the files out of the area you intend to remove from the clutches of Windows. Making a new partition wipes out any data which had been sitting there before the partition was made; i.e., writing the new partition's structure over-writes any previous magnetic marks in that physical space on the drive.

Hope this helped!

Scruffy

[ishaim]

from my observations there are two ways to install knoppix from the live-cd

1) copy the image to your hard drive and install it as a program, or
2) partition your hard drive using either qparted or partition magic

i am not sure which to use..

A full HD installation of Linux from the Knoppix installer installs a Debian Linux which lacks the Knoppix hardware search utilities during its boot-up. Being a true Debian system, it requires its own partitions to function. In order to live on the same HD w/ Windows, and have both OS's still available would definitely REQUIRE use of a dual-boot loader like LILO or GRUB. Installing a Debian system would wipe out the MBR, so there are things you need to do to prepare beforehand, making backup copies of the Windows boot-up stuff.

what is a master boot record? is it like a sub-partition of a partition which stores core operating system files?

so you're saying regardless of whether or not you partition with partition magic or qparted, once you start installing knoppix, it turns into debian, which consequentially wipes out the MBR? in this case, why would it matter whether you used partition magic or qparted? is the wiping out of the MBR inevitable, or can a dual boot loader work around this?

i want to leave windows intact, but also partition my hard drive so i can use both knoppix and windows via dual boot.. are you saying doing a full hard disk installation of knoppix will wipe out windows?

[ight8]

I'm new to linux as well so lets Keep it simple, Winblows hates it when you install other OS's, I wouldn't even bother with lilo or grub, not yet anyway. find a partition maker such as qtparted or any one of the millions of others (I use Acronis because it does both windows and linux partitions in a simple GUI) and figure out how to make partitions at the end of your drive where you might have enough room. i would start by making a partition called /root about 800mb's in size towards the end of your drive (0x82 is ext3 I believe, but definatly check). after that i would make another partition after that about 500mb's in size as a swap (0x83 is swap, maybe?). and as the final partition on the drive, make a /home directory (0x82 should be ext3 again) any size you can spare, try to give yourself a good amount of room for the files you save. once you have these three partitions this is where the fun begins.

Knoppix has cheat codes! with the partition manager you choose you should be able to print the partition info. I believe Dos is one big partition (dont qoute me I'm not sure) logically speaking that would make it hda1. your next partition (the /root) just might be hda2, So
reboot your computer with the Knoppix cd in and when you get the first screen, before the pretty colored letters you will need to type in "BOOT: Knoppix tohd=/dev/hda2 " this will copy the cd to your /root (assuming your root is hda2). Knoppix will automatically recognize the swap. now let it boot completely, this will take a minute so it can copy and all.

Once your "completely" booted, on the desktop is a penguin that looks like its a bug that hit your windshield at 65mph! that's your knoppix directory, go there and then to configure, then to " make persistant home directory "

viola! not so bad after the partition struggle. Now, when you boot your computer it should load windows automatically. (that is your primary OS right?) Then If you want to boot to Knoppix, put in the cd and type this command at the BOOT prompt " BOOT knoppix fromhd=/dev/hda3" this will boot you into knoppix, when the boot is finished you can remove the cd and do whatever you please with the cd-rom because it will read everything from the hard drive.

some final words of wisdom, make a windows start disk floppy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will save your butt if something goes wrong. make back ups of all necessary files, nobody can stress this enough.

If you have any questions about qtparted and or your MBR http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3311 .

If you insist on having your cake and eating it to you will need to read http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/HdBasedHowTo for your lilo/grub installation.

enjoy

[scruffyeagle]

from my observations there are two ways to install knoppix from the live-cd

1) copy the image to your hard drive and install it as a program, or
2) partition your hard drive using either qparted or partition magic

i am not sure which to use..

( --- snipped --- )

what is a master boot record? is it like a sub-partition of a partition which stores core operating system files?

so you're saying regardless of whether or not you partition with partition magic or qparted, once you start installing knoppix, it turns into debian, which consequentially wipes out the MBR? in this case, why would it matter whether you used partition magic or qparted? is the wiping out of the MBR inevitable, or can a dual boot loader work around this?

i want to leave windows intact, but also partition my hard drive so i can use both knoppix and windows via dual boot.. are you saying doing a full hard disk installation of knoppix will wipe out windows?

I'm not saying installing Linux will of necessity wipe out Windows, or the ability to boot Windows. What I'm saying is that there are things you need to do before performing the installation, to prevent those bad things from happening. It's like you tweak & prep beforehand, do your installation, then tweak some more to polish it up & make it work. Honestly, the details of exactly what to do are way beyond me. What I'm sharing here, is just the general form of it that I've picked up via reading messages in the form.

The MBR on a HD is similar in nature to a partition - but, it's special. When HD's were evolving, it became standard to take a part of the HD and set it aside as being strictly dedicated to holding the files necessary for booting off the HD. Under normal circumstances, the MBR area is off-limits and inaccessible to the user of the computer. It's always the same area on any HD, at the "start" of the drive's space. A drive's electronics have it hard-coded re. where it is & its exact size. OS's can read & write into that reserved area on the drive, during installation, and sometimes during maintenance.

This is where I get in over my head - all I can tell you, is that the methods do exist for preserving your Windows, installing Debian, & setting up dual-booting. You need to talk to the experienced guys. Focus on the prep-work, asking about that.

As for Partition Magic vs. QPARTED: The PM has (I believe) the built-in ability to preserve the FAT Windows needs to function, whereas QPARTED (as best I can tell) does not. Resizing with QPARTED you'll end up with a brand-new, unpopulated FAT. PM manages to save the info & re-write a new FAT that lives in the resized partition, possessing the necessary referencing links to access the files on the drive. With QPARTED, those links are lost - and, the data becomes unretrievable without special forensic software.

I suspect that given the level of knowledge you currently have, and your desire to keep Windows functional, the best way for you to go would be to do the kind of install that runs Knoppix from compressed image from within a booted Windows setting. If you get a 2nd machine for tinkering with, you could try to get fancy - but, for now, I think you should take the path of least resistance and least risk.