Ver 3.4 observation

[richg]

Hello All

I recently read a suggestion about Knoppix 3.4 which I liked. I donwloaded 3.4 and burned an image. The live cd was the best I have seen so far. I have installed, Lindows, suse, mandrake and a couple of others but have usb and firewire issues.
I was then very dismayed with trying to install to my hd. After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms. Too bad as it seems to be an excellant os. Hopefully this will be improved in the future.
I will stick with Linspire 4.5.499 as I found an easy work around for usb and firewire.

Cheers

Richg

[mzilikazi]

Try Kanotix for hdd installation. It's based on (almost) pure Debian SID and won't give you the headaches that Knoppix does after an installation. Knoppix was never designed for an hdd install and accordingly does not work too well when used as such.

[richg]

Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard

[Cuddles]

Hello All

I recently read a suggestion about Knoppix 3.4 which I liked. I donwloaded 3.4 and burned an image. The live cd was the best I have seen so far. I have installed, Lindows, suse, mandrake and a couple of others but have usb and firewire issues.
I was then very dismayed with trying to install to my hd. After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms. Too bad as it seems to be an excellant os. Hopefully this will be improved in the future.
I will stick with Linspire 4.5.499 as I found an easy work around for usb and firewire.

Cheers

Richg

Not to nit-pick, but, I am quite sure your "easy work around" was actually something like a "techie" issue... Also, Knoppix can be installed to your hard drive, from a very easy to use installer, which was re-vamp'ed extensively, in v3.4 -=- you only need to "play" with the config file if you want "special" changes - like seperate partitions for /home, / ( root ), and the like... And I am quite sure, that if you would have posted your usb and firewire issues with Knoppix here, you would have gotten resolves for them...

Thank you for the reply but I will stick with Linspire. I suppose the Knoppix site has a disclamer that Knoppix runs "only" of the cd so I must have missed it. KANOTIX I am not aware of and I am leary of the support. As I said in the first post, I am not a techie so I will stick with what I know.
I will unsubscribe after this reply.

Cheers

Richard

Knoppix has no disclaimer, in which case, you did not miss it, for that reason - Knoppix can, and does, run off the hard drive, and can, and does, run fine off the CD - Hence, this is why Knoppix, v3.2, v3.3, and v3.4 have hard drive install routines in them - why would anyone have a hard drive install program if they didn't expect that some people would actually install them to a hard drive??? As for the "not being a techie", to be in Linux, you might have to be... Sometimes you have to "tinker" with config files, do modprobe's, insert modules, remove modules, and even re-compile your kernel -=- sometimes. Most of the time, you spend down in the CLI ( command line interface ), doing commands that can not be done through a GUI ( graphical user interface ) -=- Linux is no way the same as Windows - and for that matter - Windows is no way as powerfull as Linux.

Linux doesn't make an warranties on usability, nor does Microsoft, but, if you aren't happy with Linux, and want to go another route, at least you didn't spend any money for it Whereas, if you don't like Windows, your stuck with already purchasing it...

Ms. Cuddles

[j.drake]

After some searching I realized the hd instrallation is a techie issue, not for newbies. I have no desire to be a techie type as I only want to get away from ms.

Oh, this is too easy!!

Step 1: Ignore everything you've read about which version to install. Linux is inherently techie, and there is no distro in existence which gets around that. There are distros which are more dumbed down than others, but less useful. Knoppix is the best I've found, by far, but there are times that you have to get into the console, as with any linux distro.

Step 2: Do research on the following topics, using the search box:
-- Persistent home
-- Save configuration
-- Klik
-- "Poor man's" install (now called the "tohd" and "fromhd" cheatcodes)

Be aware that there were some recent changes made in Knoppix, so don't trust information that is more than a few months old on these topics (e.g., the WIKI is outdated on many of these topics)

Step 3: Using the elements of Step 2, do a poor man's install of Knoppix, which will give you almost all of the advantages of a hd install, without the hassles and disadvantages. You simply instert the live CD into a bootable drive and reboot, then enter the applicable cheatcodes at the boot prompt, boot, remove the CD, and enjoy the ride. The only things it can't do easily are those things that you have to be "techie" enough to do in the first place. You will be able to run Knoppix, install programs, save files, and do virtually anything that you could do with a hd install.

Lots of people use this option - it's definitely a viable alternative, and not simply a "make do". Do not take this suggestion as an insult to your Linux abilities - it's not - I fully assume from your comments that you are an experienced Linux user, but be aware that there are lots of other experienced Linux users who utilize this alternative to do what they want without the hassles of a hd install.

jd

[probono]

Hi j.drake, perhaps we should put together a nice fromhd/tohd/grub/persistenthome/klik tutorial with screenshots and very easy to follow step-by-step instructions for newbies... It's certainly not easy to find the information in all the forum posts.

[ICPUG]

Mr Probono and J.Drake

You have hit the nail on the head. Your comments are absolutely right. I am technically proficient in Windows (pre XP) and came to Knoppix with version 3.3 to plan the migration. Being a complete newbie it has been a slow process, but with the help of the odd posting here I have cleared some of the hurdles.

I have a desire to find an easy way to get Windows users, not necessarily technical, into using Knoppix. I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.

I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!

One other slight problem seems to be that the 2.4 kernel seems to work slightly differently than the 2.6 and sometimes the kernel combination with the fromhd and bootfrom cheat codes does not always work. I had this problem with this Windows NT4 machine whereby only kernel 2.6 with bootfrom worked! I'm intrigued to know if this is true with a Windows XP machine as well since it is usually NTFS formatted.

I'm rambling a bit but the idea of step by step instructions that gets (Windows) users set up with Poor Mans Install, able to store their efforts in a persistant home and keep ther settings from one session to the next is an absolute must to get them to convert. I might add that step by step instructions on how to get on the Internet is probably the next step!

Keep up the good work guys and if these step by step instructions appear I think you are going to make a lot of people happy.

[A. Jorge Garcia]

You will be able to run Knoppix, install programs, save files, and do virtually anything that you could do with a hd install.

Wait a minute here! I thought tohd/fromhd was for use as a poor man's install. In other words, just a copy of the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file off the CD which is a ro fs, right?

What's this saving files and installing programs? Is this an rw fs after all? Or are you referring to persistent home when you mention saving files and klik when you mention installing programs?

TIA,
AJG

[mzilikazi]

I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!

Nothing could be easier.

apt-get install grub
grub-install /dev/hda
update-grub
reboot

Now that's assuming you have only 1 hdd and things are kind of simple. None the less GRUB is easy and Debian makes it really easy

Afer you become accustomed to apt-get I guarantee you'll want to puke everytime you have to go find a windows app, make sure it isn't spyware, click 6 or 8 times just to find the damned download and then hope the installer works!

I don't know what all this tohdd and fromhdd stuff is and a begginner type install seems a nightmare. I just use Kanotix to install Linux in a few minutes flat AND have alot of apps (virus & spyware free of course) and it's just done and over with period.

I too am proficient w/ windows (occupational hazzard) but I can install Linux in a very short time with nothing more than 3 floppy disks and no licensing b.s. to deal with. Windows OTOH takes hours to install by the time you get all the patches, antivirus, anti-spyware, and a multitude of reboots. I guess it comes down to what you have the opportunity to learn. I do know this; If everyone in my offfice used only Linux I would be very bored with pc maintainence.

It's impossible to lock down windows so that users cannot install apps so of course they put on all those silly tool bars for IE and ridiculous cursors! Then they cry to me. "Oh my computer keeps doing this weird thing....."

I detest that OS and I detest Redmond for 'dumbing down' the pc. Of course without windows users when would I have fun? For example, I scan for wireless networks in my neighborhood, (the windows users don't even bother to change their ESSID to something other than 'Linksys') find a shared printer and send them a little something. mwahahahah

[CrashedAgain]

I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.

I use lilo. Here is an excerpt from a HowTo I am preparing (for remastering from a HD install). A rough draft of the HowTo is posted under customizing & remastering.

Step 2: Install the 'toHD' system & set up to boot from lilo

To install, just boot Knoppix with the boot code 'knoppix tohd=/dev/hda1' at the boot prompt.

In order to boot the 'toHD' install without requiring a boot disk, a directory /boot containing at least the minimum required files to boot Knoppix must be installed on hda1. Using the HD install on hda5, first create the directory then as root do the following:

For Knoppix 3.3:
The minimum files are vmlinuz and miniroot.gz which can not be directly copied from the CD, they are buried in /boot.img. To extract the files, the boot.img must first be mounted on a loop device then on an intermediate mount point (use the existing directory /mnt/floppy) from which they can be copied to hda1. For simplicity we are just going to copy all the files in the boot.img.

/sbin/losetup /dev/loop0 /mnt/cdrom/KNOPPIX/boot.img
mount /dev/loop0 /mnt/floppy/
cp /mnt/floppy/* /mnt/hda1/boot

Then edit /etc/lilo.conf adding the following:

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/vmlinuz
label="toHDKnoppix"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/miniroot.gz
read-only
(Change "lang=" as appropriate, only include the home=scan & myconfig=scan if you are using 'persistent home')

For Knoppix 3.4

The required files are linux24, linux26, minirt24.gz & minirt26.gz. These are located in the directory /boot/isolinux on the CD and can be directly copied to hda1 from there. The easiest way is to just use konqueror and drag-drop the entire directory '/mnt/cdrom/isolinux' to /mnt/hda1/boot/.

Then add the following to lilo.conf:

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux24
label="Knoppix3.4-24"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt24.gz
read-only

image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux26
label="Knoppix3.4-26"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt26.gz
read-only

Don't forget to run lilo to update the settings before exiting.

Now you can reboot into the 'toHD' install, change the settings to your preferences, set up your persistent home and save your configuration settings to hda7. Persistent home doesn't have to be very large as this is a 'temporary' installation but it does make using a lot easier as you don't have to keep replacing your desktop setup etc.

This assumes lilo is already installed as part of the HD install on hda5 which will become the remaster source. This will not be the case when you are just doing a 'toHD' install so you will have to install lilo while running from the CD or from the toHD install. I think you can do this, although I haven't tried. Lilo will have to go on the MBR and will have to include an entry from booting the windows system as well. You will probably have to copy lilo to /home directory to edit it then specify to use that config file.