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Thread: knx hd install is not just debian

  1. #11
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    Experiance from working with the email newsgroup ALSA, hopefully, this information will help the next person who wants to get answers, and not spend a week, or two, just explaining "what exactly DO you have?", or, "That isnt something in a NORMAL Distro", kind of thing
    Sadly, the #debian folks are quite clear what knoppix is, except for their claim that it isn't debian. Agreed, it isn't any straightforward strain of the debian releases, it's not even up-to-date SID. What I don't get is the vehemence. One cat actually said "Knoppix stole debian." What's up with that?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaedral
    Experiance from working with the email newsgroup ALSA, hopefully, this information will help the next person who wants to get answers, and not spend a week, or two, just explaining "what exactly DO you have?", or, "That isnt something in a NORMAL Distro", kind of thing
    Sadly, the #debian folks are quite clear what knoppix is, except for their claim that it isn't debian. Agreed, it isn't any straightforward strain of the debian releases, it's not even up-to-date SID. What I don't get is the vehemence. One cat actually said "Knoppix stole debian." What's up with that?
    L O L
    If they say that bout Knoppix, wonder what they would say bout Kanotix

    Think thats bad, I went into the #knoppix irc once, talk about snobby... You make a nice comment bout an issue you are having, with "knoppix" no less, and you get either the attituide that "we are God, and needn't be trivialized with mear mortals", or the "your question is not relavent, thus, we won't answer you", stuff... That chat arena is filled with people with "extremely" high regards of themselves, and wouldn't inflict that "pain" on any newbie...

    I must admit, here, this forum, we have lots of people who aren't even running Knoppix, they run something else, but, this forum has one thing, actually, lots of things, going for it...

    We work together, we try and help "anyone", we just "chat", we are a "family" in a matter of speaking - no judgements, at least from what I've seen, everyone can do what they want, run what they want, and lastly, I think we "are" a community, as the original poster stated - I think we all "see" that Linux, as a whole, is in this "together", and if we work together, we will deffinately go far...

    Just my non-sensable ramblings, ( I do this LOTS of times [giggle] ), but, I do it VERY well

    EDIT:
    Just for kicks, whats the server, irc room, and port information? I might want to "waltz" in there to "rattle the cage" a little LOL
    END EDIT

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles
    I went into the #knoppix irc once, talk about snobby...
    I do hope you meant #debian. Haven't been much on #knoppix myself, sometimes on #kanotix and at least that's quite friendly, as did #knoppix seem to be.

  4. #14
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    Nope, sad to say, I meant #knoppix, and the statement was valid...

    I went in to find an answer on XChat, using my Win98 install of Pirch, for the irc connection, I was having problems with inetd, and all the signs I could find, on my own, said I should be using xinetd, which didnt seem to be working for me either...

    My querry was on getting either inetd or xinetd working in Knoppix, so I could frequent irc chat rooms, and, the response I got was "your issue is borked, you dont need inetd" - but, after explaining that XChat yelled about it, and needed it, they didnt help any further... I finally just hit up this forum, and got my answer - it wasnt started as a service, inetd that is, and a simple addition in my startup, inet.d, made it work - but didnt get that from this irc channel, but from here...

    When I do have a chance to go into the #knoppix irc, it usually has LOTS of people in it, but no "chatter", not even a "hello" - this was a way back, it might have changed since then, but, I dont think so, IMHO - who knows, maybe I should check in on it again, for a recent account

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaedral
    One cat actually said "Knoppix stole debian."
    Excellent! What do they say about other Debian-based bastardizations...like Lindows (oops "Linspire"). Debian should be appreciative that these spinoffs are increasing the popularity of Linux in general and their version of Linux in particular without compromising the basic free and open philosophy behind Linux.

    What I mean is, one of the factors limiting the expansion of Linux is the continual issue of hardware support since HW support has to be compiled into the kernel. Linux could go a long way toward making support easier for manufacturers by providing a connection for proprietary drivers...but they won't do it because the drivers would be closed source which would compromise the 'free and open' philosophy.

    I wouldn't expect Debian purists to 'support' my own Knoppix-based-Debian-based customization but they shouldn't put it down either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles
    I have to admit, when I was "collecting" my kernel sources, for this "big" compile, I did have to grab those "specific" patch source code that makes what Knoppix is, which was, one more step, but, that wasnt a big deal either... And, yes, I did have to do another step, I had to change the version of the compiler to what "Knoppix" has been compiled under originally...
    What are those patches? what do they do? Are they necessary...what if you just used a standard Debian kernel? Would something not work?
    and finally, Why does Klaus continue to use an old version of gcc?

    Quote Originally Posted by phaedral
    As for "consult the debian forums," well, just don't consult #debian...not unless you're wearing your asbestos knickers. Anyone explain the hostility there?
    Perhaps we should have the "consult Debian forums" advice removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles
    I must admit, here, this forum, we have lots of people who aren't even running Knoppix, they run something else, but, this forum has one thing, actually, lots of things, going for it...

    We work together, we try and help "anyone", we just "chat", we are a "family" in a matter of speaking - no judgements, at least from what I've seen, everyone can do what they want, run what they want, and lastly, I think we "are" a community, as the original poster stated - I think we all "see" that Linux, as a whole, is in this "together", and if we work together, we will deffinately go far...
    Never mind the Debian forums. THIS is the best place to ask about Knoppix issues. In fact this forum has to rate as one of the best anywhere. Very rarely does anyone with any question no matter how simple get the RTFM put down. Very rarely does anyone get bad advice which will steer them wrong. The proof is that it's continually active.

    WE (and I'm proud to consider myself as part of the WE) should give ourselves a pat on the back.

  6. #16
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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    If I have learned anything through all of this, I have learned "you just dont do THAT!" - and "that" being an apt-get upgrade, or an apt-get dist-upgrade ...
    I've pretty much been the same route & come to the same conclusion ie upgrade applications but DONT attempt to upgrade system.
    Blasphemy! This is to me the most disagreeable part about a Knoppix hdd installation. In this scenario there's no choice but to agree with the folks in #debian - Knoppix ain't Debian if you can't do a dist-upgrade. The packaging system is the foundation of Debian but if it doesn't work why use it?

    I've also questioned why would anybody want to upgrade system? There doesn't seem to be any improvement in anything after upgrade.
    Please browse the latest Debian weekly news and you'll soon see that security is a primary reason. Others reasons would be bugfixes and new features.

    Knoppix may take a bit more initial customizing but maintaining is easy.
    Sorry but this is contradictory. 'It's easy to maintain as long as you don't do an upgrade". Point #2 for the rude people in #debian. You can no longer rely on the Debian manual or at least not the dpkg/apt manuals. Please read this article about Debian turning 10. If I may a few quotes from Ian Murdock the founder of Debian GNU Linux:
    5) Debian will contain a menu system that WORKS... menu-driven
    package installation and upgrading utility, menu-driven system setup, menu-driven help system, and menu-driven system administration.

    7) Debian will be extensively documented (more than just a few READMEs).
    In my eyes the only acceptable (as in marginally) solution would be a sure-fire step-by-step solution to making your Knoppix hdd install upgradable as it should be. If this needs to be rewritten for each release then that's really going to be a PITA.

    OK, I've not tried to do a kernel rebuild. What/why the 'unless you've done a knoppix installation'?
    Perhaps things have changed in the year or more since I've booted a Knoppix disc but at that time it was nigh impossible to build your own kernel without including all of the Knoppix patches. Again this is not correct. You should be able to get a Debian kernel or build your own from kernel.org with no patches other than what's required to support your particular hardware not because your system won't function without them.

    That said, you'd never find me lurking in #debian either.

  7. #17
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    I am presently reading the new Knoppix hacks book. It stated that the hd-install was a little rough because Knoppix was never intended to be an install.

    If that is so why the uproar over the quality of the hd install?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcook
    I am presently reading the new Knoppix hacks book. It stated that the hd-install was a little rough because Knoppix was never intended to be an install.

    If that is so why the uproar over the quality of the hd install?
    Well Doh! Klaus has outright stated this. People seem to insist on installing from the live CD, but why remains a mystery. One theory is that it's the mother duck syndrome. It's the first Linux that people see when they hatch, so they follow it like a duck follows it's mother. Perhaps if people accepted Knoppix as what it is, a fantastic Live CD distribution that has really led the way in the Linux world in automatic configuration. and when they are ready to install on a hard drive use something like Debain that is intended for hard drive install, they would be much better off.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcook
    I am presently reading the new Knoppix hacks book. It stated that the hd-install was a little rough because Knoppix was never intended to be an install.

    If that is so why the uproar over the quality of the hd install?
    For me, its not really an uproar, its more of a "discussion", or, for me, something that I could see as being better...

    If we want to nail this whole thing down, to something simple, its all about "taking the best" of what Knoppix does, removing the "worst", and possibly, adding some of the good, from something else... Maybe, what we are talking about in all of this, is, as you say, and others, "doing something with Knoppix, that it was never intended in doing."

    But, that has never stopped anyone from doing this. To back up my point, who hasnt used a screwdriver handle as a hammer? Who hasnt use an extra nut from three tires on there vehicle to replace nuts from a lost tire? Who hasnt used Windows 95, or for that matter, Windows 98, as a server? Who hasnt used "duct tape" to fix something, when something else probably would have fixed it better? Who hasnt done anything that wasnt "intended" to be done a certain way, and done it that way? ( I am sure glad this topic is in The Lounge )

    The complete truth is, that maybe Knoppix was never intended to be hard drive installed, by its creator, but, this hasnt stopped anyone, including myself, from doing it. And maybe, just maybe, we see improvement of this falasy. You cant hard drive install Knoppix, you can, You cant have a stable system with Knoppix installed, you can, You cant update, or upgrade, Knoppix installed, you can... And if that means you dont use the "traditional" methods, or the "Debian" way to do it, or for that matter, the RedHat way, or Mandrake way, or Fedona, etc... then fine, that only makes "Knoppix" more unique... True, you cant use the "Debian" method of using the "traditional" way, of using apt-get upgrade, or dist-upgrade, but you can still keep up with your applications.

    If anything, "the creator" of Knoppix should be glad, one, for his prodogy to be used as much as it is, and two, that people are doing more with it, than he ever wanted, or thought it to be used as... I would think it to be a compliment. This kind of thing, a parent could only dream of from there child, the day they come to you, and show how far they have gone, and the best you could have ever hoped for, from them, was that maybe, they could get a job at the local "Fast Food" joint. I am quite sure that he can see that, and know, that it has become more than he had thought it to ever be. Heck, people are using his Distro as a server, as a network hub, as a hardware firewall system for a Windows intranet, both as a Live CD and as a hard drive install - that HAS to say something about his Distro, right there.

    Knoppix was "originally" designed for a Live CD Distro, true, but, if that is the case, why can you hard drive install it? If it wasnt, or shouldnt, or cant, be run, other than as a Live CD, why is the "OPTION" for hard drive installing it, available? Two answers spring to mind; one, it was added just "because" us "nuts" would do it anyway, if it wasnt already there, and two, someone felt that it could be installed, and a viable hard drive Distro. Fabian has been working on the installer, and with the new version 3.4, we got to see a new "way of installing", which is, I must add, a far better thing than I used in v3.3 - text based vs. GUI based, its slicker, nicer, and this is just the FIRST version of that installer, I can only imagine how much that is going to change over time... I would say that this improvement was about as big as installing DOS v3.1 over installing, say, Windows98 - which, is a LOT of years between them, and this is just his "first" version. If Knoppix was never intended to be hard drive installed, why is someone working so hard on the "installer"? Unless, "someone" thinks that it can, should, will, etc... be hard drive installed, creator, or not.

    Its all a moot thought though, many will, and many wont, hard drive install Knoppix - I guess my biggest battle is, to see it get better, the installer, and the "after-effects" of installing it. I'd like to see Knoppix as a Distro, with the "big guys", and not as a Live CD Distro, but, as a "real" Distro, as well. People are working on it, and, as I said before, nothing fuels anything better than to say, YOU CANT. I think a lot of us, the ones who have tried to do what we were told you cant do, and are doing it, maybe against the odds, or not, we are doing it. Someday, I estimate, Linux is going to be taking on Windows, the train is just starting up its engines, its got a lot of distance to catch-up, and even more to over-take, but, I think its going to happen... someday. But, I dont think its going to be with a Live CD, its going to be with a install, home turf of Windows - Knoppix has some good stuff, some of which others dont have, I cant imagine Knoppix not being alongside in the fight, or race, and I just see that the hard drive install issue, is just one of Knoppix's pitfalls, not something that cant be overcome, just an issue at this time.

    Just my thoughts

  10. #20
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    It seems like a waste of effort to achieve. There are installable versions, meant to be installable. If I use a screwdriver as a hammer, I don't suggest to Stanley that they make the handle heavier to better serve my needs, or vice versa if I use a hammer as a screwdriver, I don't complain about the splinters or surface finish. I expect Klaus and Franz have enough on their plates w/o trying to make all and be all.

    I have worked as an engineer for 30 years and know from experience that the surest way to make a bad, bloated and expensive product, is to try to do and be everything for everybody. I am still trying to convince management of this on occasion.

    Klaus and Franz have provided a marvelous system for us to use. Praise their efforts and quit flyspecking, or better yet form a small group to develop the installer you of your dreams and offer it up.

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