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Thread: knx hd install is not just debian

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman
    ...People seem to insist on installing from the live CD, but why remains a mystery. One theory is that it's the mother duck syndrome. It's the first Linux that people see when they hatch, so they follow it like a duck follows it's mother. Perhaps if people accepted Knoppix as what it is, a fantastic Live CD distribution that has really led the way in the Linux world in automatic configuration. and when they are ready to install on a hard drive use something like Debain that is intended for hard drive install, they would be much better off.
    Here's another theory...more than a theory, actual history.

    When I first tried Linux I tried Mandrake but my downloaded disks froze halfway through the install. Then I tried Debian...as a absolute newbie it was WAY beyond my capability to set it up. Couldn't get sound at all, video wasn't right, nothing worked. Got RTFM'd when I asked for help.

    Then I got a 'Freeduc' disk from Linux Format magazine...couldn't understand half of what was written in the magazine but the disk was worth the price. Freeduc is an odd Knoppix spinoff so I downloaded Knoppix....and discovered a Debian based system that detected and configured ALL my hardware, complete set of applications, excellent support forum where newbies don't get RTFM'd, etc etc.

    Later I tried Mandrake (disks from the magazine worked) but found rpm's impossible after apt-get so wanted a Debian system. Now, after successfully trying Knoppix and unsuccessfully trying Debian, why would I choose Debian instead of Knoppix? Perhaps that makes me a duck but I prefer to think of it as choosing something that worked over something that didn't.

    As for the " uproar over the quality of the hd install?", I don't think the issue is the quality of the HD install, it HD installs just fine, runs just like Knoppix when it's HD installed. It's just a few issues about customizing, upgrading and so on which only relate to a HD installed system since you can't change anything on a CD system. It's not complaints, it's just issues I don't understand...like what are these kernel patches, what do they do, can you run without them and would you want to if you could.

    As for 'upgrading system' it can be done, I have done it, Cuddles has done it, both of us found that it screws up the setups so much it just doesn't seem worth it. I for one am not that concerned about 'security', I've never been hacked, I've not had any virus problems since using Linux & there is nothing valuable on my system anyway. But on the other hand, if you are 'supposed' to be able to do it, why can't you? Is it the patched kernel? The special startup scripts? What???

    Maybe I'll put on an 'experimental' install just to see how badly I can break it.

  2. #22
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    It took me a little time, to gestate what Harry Kuhman was saying, Maybe, I am just "following mother", I guess I could admit to that, but, you even pointed out something, that, I dont think you realized ...

    Well Doh! Klaus has outright stated this. People seem to insist on installing from the live CD, but why remains a mystery. One theory is that it's the mother duck syndrome. It's the first Linux that people see when they hatch, so they follow it like a duck follows it's mother. Perhaps if people accepted Knoppix as what it is, a fantastic Live CD distribution that has really led the way in the Linux world in automatic configuration. and when they are ready to install on a hard drive use something like Debain that is intended for hard drive install, they would be much better off.
    Automatic configuration - CrashedAgain even pointed out that these "other" Distro's, the ones "intended" on being hard drive installed, dont do this, and the user, or installer, is left up to doing ALL of this themselves. I am sorry, but, this may be the real reason why people see Kanotix as an aternative, doesnt IT still keep the "auto configuration"? Or, has it lost that in its "translation" to being closer to Sid?

    I agree with CrashedAgain, but, then again, I dont have any "war wounds" from any other Distro, I saw Knoppix, and then realized I could install it, and did. I have since learned, what you can, and cant do, with it this way, I live with those complications...

    I can not be sure of this, but, I think Harry and CrashedAgain both "hit on" what the "kernel patches" are, the ones that I had to include when I compiled my kernel from source... The features that make Knoppix what it is, and the exclusion of these sources, would, possibly, make the kernel, not Knoppix - automatic configuration -=- this HAS to be what those patches are all about, they make the kernel what Knoppix is "known" for, and it appears, the only Linux that can say this... ( Unless, as I will be proved on a later post, Kanotix still contains these features )

    I have seriously considered going to Kanotix, but, I guess I am truely a "duck", and have kept loyal, and faithful, to my "mother". I have become accustomed to what I know, and enjoy that accustomation. I fear change, to go out in the world on "my own", and I fear for my system, who must make that journey, with me.

    Since we have a devoted Kanotix runner here, can you allieveate some of my concerns, on this change???

    *** Can Kanotix support "dial-up"? I have heard that it no longer has this support.
    *** Can Kanotix support my "current" Knoppix home partition? On the last Knoppix hard drive install, I went with a seperate partition scheme for root, and for /home.
    *** Can Kanotix run the 2.6.6 kernel? I have come to use, and appreciate this faster kernel.
    *** Can Kanotix support auto-configuration of my hardware devices? I dont want to spend six weeks trying to get help to get my hardware working. i.e. video, sound, etc...

    Last thought, doesnt Kanotix require downloading the "sources" from the Linux kernel site? And does it "also" require a "patch" from Kanotix to make it "Kanotix", or am I just not thinking straight here????

  3. #23
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    Anyway, please please please try Kanotix. (you have a spare box or partition?). I would no longer be linuxing without it.

    You, Sis, of all folks know what I went through with the hairier than hell, I-don't-have-source-installed here on Knoppix thaing when I was trying to get the dreaded lm sensors going. I switched then to kanotix and never looked back. I have a spare 20 gig partition on the linux disk that I try out other distros on. To date, SUSE was the only thing that came close to debian IMHO. I am presently in fedora core hell on the spare partition and ready to give it up.

    To kanotix/debian I hate to say it, after the initial use of 3 kano's scripts (kernel source, nvidia and kdm dpi) I no longer need them to do anything "debian" to my hard drive install. The kano script to install source patches it as well. As far as I am concerned, I am running debian sid. Of course, I am embroiled in mortal combat (or maybe it is over now with a whimper- I know he was ticked off I am not a unix admin) with a coworker trying to get me to switch to a "real" distro, namely Fedora. Of all distros, that is so far from our debian-based experience I would never recommend it. SUSE, Mandrake you can feel your way around if you been running what we have. Fedora (and Redhat I imagine) no, get a degree in unix first.

    Before nuking my spare kanotix for the fedora-beast I had done apt-get dist-upgrade on it and it BOOTED and WORKED. There were a couple of held packages. On occasion I had forced the issue with no ill effects. I still prefer selective upgrades if only to keep unnecessary services from starting up that I would have to pull out and to keep things, well, the way I like them.

    To answer your questions:
    1. Kanotix does support dialup - there is an itsy bitsy change you have to make to some permissions. Life in general in linux land is easier if you have high speed... but you know I was on dialup up until like two months ago.
    2. A question for MZI, I don't do a separate home myself and haven't seen the option in standard kanotix installing. So I would have to say, I don't think so, but mzi would know for sure.
    3. I am running 2.6.8.1-kanotix-5
    4. Definitely yes, kanotix has the best hardware configuring of everything I have tried to date.

    Try it you will like it. You can go to debian pits and just tell them you are running sid. Yes, they bash knoppix. Some will tell you if you must, go with kanotix. Most will recommend the sarge net installer which now that I have high speed is probably an option. But I have my bughunter and don't need sarge. Sid is just fine in my book

  4. #24
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    Has to agree with nishtya.
    I fell in love with Kanotix the first time we met...love at first sight, eventhough I'm married to knoppix,mandrake,redhat,suse and XP.
    I had to make a very difficult decission.........divorced all my other linux including XP.
    ........and we are still in love till today.........she's even prettier everytime I look at her..........now I'm horny.......
    Thanks to Kano for sending her to earth...............

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shah
    ....I fell in love with Kanotix the first time we met...love at first sight, .....
    I just tried Kanotix, based on this thread. OK, it seems fine, but I didn't see major differences to get excited about. What am I missing (in contrast to Knoppix)? I should point out my interest is entirely in running a live CD, not in installing a live CD to hard disk, so if the main differences are there then they are not an issue to me. But "I fell in love with Kanotix the first time we met" seems to imply there is more to it than that, and I'm just dense.

  6. #26
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    Tell it to other distro fanatics...................they will quote what I said.
    Love is blind..............other people's opinion doesn't matter.

  7. #27
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    The main differences as I see them with Kanotix are better support for softmodems and usb-modems, also Kano is very active in the forum and #kanotix, so good support is available in that sense too and he's also usually happy to include requested drivers.
    For me the main advantage was stability of hd installing and not having to clean out a lot of knoppix specific packages.
    So if you're running of the cd and have a eth connection to internet, knoppix will do nicely. Unless you want to try out some of Kano's scripts (some work on knoppix too): http://kanotix.com/files/

  8. #28
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    Ok, I think I am "almost" sold here... Heck, when is the best time to "muck things up?" when they are working perfectly, of course...

    Now, for where I get my CD's at???? ( looking around the room ) Where is Eco2Geek I haven't seen them in almost forever... They made me an offer, back when they got me Knoppix v3.4, that they could "also" send me Kanotix, since I sent him a "few extra" CD-R 's for his trouble... I can take over the phone line for a night, or so, for apt-get installs, the big ones, but, taking over the connection for something as big as a ISO download, that is too long, especially with a 56K dial-up... Maybe, I should just tell the "significant other" the line is going to be in use, "for awhile"? ( and do the download myself??? )

    Anyone have any ideas? ( other than breaking down to the "mighty monopoly" that is our phone company, and get high-speed? With the new car, I dont think we can afford it, though )

  9. #29
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    Never a leader but a follower be....I guess I'm going to try Kano too.
    Actually, I DL'd it yesterday, had a quick look at it , it's very much like Knoppix, even the username is knoppix, gives the option for a 'knoppix-style' HD install.

    Cuddles: you can get you disk from Mzilikazi: see http://kanotix.com/info/index.php
    For Kanotix features see: http://kanotix.com/files/kanotix/
    For Kanotix's famous scripts see: http://kanotix.com/files/

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles
    I can not be sure of this, but, I think Harry and CrashedAgain both "hit on" what the "kernel patches" are, the ones that I had to include when I compiled my kernel from source... The features that make Knoppix what it is, and the exclusion of these sources, would, possibly, make the kernel, not Knoppix - automatic configuration -=- this HAS to be what those patches are all about, they make the kernel what Knoppix is "known" for, and it appears, the only Linux that can say this... ( Unless, as I will be proved on a later post, Kanotix still contains these features )
    Knoppix hardware detection comes from the kudzu package (actually kudzu-knoppix) which was adapted from Red Hat. Probably this involves some kernel patching though. Mandrake also had excellent hardware detection but I didn't like the distro and I found package management very difficult.

    Kanotix also has a much-patched kernel but apparently no problems with upgrade. I expect Kano & Knoppix have the same hardware detection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles

    *** Can Kanotix support "dial-up"? I have heard that it no longer has this support.
    *** Can Kanotix support my "current" Knoppix home partition? On the last Knoppix hard drive install, I went with a seperate partition scheme for root, and for /home.
    *** Can Kanotix run the 2.6.6 kernel? I have come to use, and appreciate this faster kernel.
    *** Can Kanotix support auto-configuration of my hardware devices? I dont want to spend six weeks trying to get help to get my hardware working. i.e. video, sound, etc...

    Last thought, doesnt Kanotix require downloading the "sources" from the Linux kernel site? And does it "also" require a "patch" from Kanotix to make it "Kanotix", or am I just not thinking straight here????
    Dial-up: Doesn't look like it would be a problem, it has kppp so must have modem support.

    /Home: It looks like it is so close to Knoppix it should be the same, probably most of your /home/user application settings will work. You will of course have to make sure the user names & user ID numbers stay the same. As an aside, I once tried to have a 'toHD' install, a HD install and the live CD all share the same persistent home. It got very confusing....

    Kernel: Latest Kano (bughunter 9) has 2.6.8 kernel, no 2.4 kernel

    Hardware detection appears identical to Knoppix

    Downloading & extra sources: doesn't appear to need anything else, just the disk.

    Which leads to another question: If Kano can modify Knoppix so that it still runs from the CD yet will become an 'almost Debain' system which will allow upgrading etc after HD install, why isn't Knoppix built that way in the first place? It doesn't appear that any of the functionality of Knoppix has been lost.

    Maybe you can do this with Knoppix, maybe you only have trouble the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishtya
    Before nuking my spare kanotix for the fedora-beast I had done apt-get dist-upgrade on it and it BOOTED and WORKED. There were a couple of held packages. On occasion I had forced the issue with no ill effects. I still prefer selective upgrades if only to keep unnecessary services from starting up that I would have to pull out and to keep things, well, the way I like them.
    What other side effects do you get from upgrading? If it's just added services (I got that too when I upgraded Knoppix) it shouldn't be too hard to write up a 'post-upgrade' script that would restore to original in one operation.

  10. #30
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    Well, Cuddles, good choice to try kanotix. But I disagree on timing, the time to go for it is when you have a broken knoppix on your hands. The old saw, if it ain't broke, don't fix it in my opinion applies here. I normally use the times when I have hosed my bughunter with KDE release candidate666 to switch to a newer bughunter, myself

    As to CD, mzi over on kanotix site does provide a very reasonable priced service. When I left my old job (with dsl there and basically I was sysadmin - nobody questioned my downloading though the title "bughunter" is a bit hard to explain), I wound up downloading my BH over a holiday weekend on dialup (3.5 days) with a dl manager in windows to pick up the dropped connections. Then my unix expert coworker dled my current BH for me (yeah, the one that has me messing with the Beast, Fedora, now)

    But, I now owe my soul to the cable company (literally, I cannot get their stupid online billing to work right aargh) and would be happy to provide you with a cd if you don't mind poor-people priced delivery of said CD I also owe Eco2geek an email back and could ask him to get in touch with you.

    I think you will be very happy with Kanotix, kano's scripts work on kanotix! Fervent as he is about it (mzi) no, many don't work on knoppix or vanilla debian-based ones. At least they didn't many months ago until I just bit the bullet and installed kanotix.

    The kernel source installing script is a masterpiece! I love it. Love it. Love it. And no, haven't really broken kanotix in awhile with a dist-upgrade - a lot of services start running that I need to kill with my handydandy ksysv init editor (I love that thing) but the only ways I have broken bughunters lately is with the hemoraghing edge of KDE and assorted messing around with X.

    so email me if you want me to send you out a CD, it is nishtya AT hot mail DOT com, you know the drill

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