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Thread: knx hd install is not just debian

  1. #1
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    knx hd install is not just debian

    Knoppix is a wonderfulll distrio. Among its strengths is a large and devoted community. Many users want to install knoppix to their hds because it is a way to get a debian install without the usual hassle of a traditional debian installation. Klaus focuses on a live cd, and we are told that if we install knoppix to our hds, what we then have is debian, so please consult the debian forums for help.

    I'd like to explore this some more. Once we install knoppix to our hd, what we get is not exactly knoppix, and not exactly debian ( even with the "debian style" install). The dependency
    problems are not trivial and are insurmountable for a noob like myself. Many of us, even using godot's assistance have broken the installation when upgrading.

    I wonder if there is sufficient interest in a community of knoppix users, who are interested in using knoppix to install debian, who might warrant some space on this or some other forum to address these issues.

    Thank you all, for listening to this llong-winded post.

    cheers

  2. #2
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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by agendelman

    I wonder if there is sufficient interest in a community of knoppix users, who are interested in using knoppix to install debian, who might warrant some space on this or some other forum to address these issues.

    Thank you all, for listening to this llong-winded post.

    cheers
    It's already been addressed. Klaus Knopper has no interest in creating a cd that installs to hdd. The possibility to install to hdd is an afterthought and yes you are right it breaks after installation. If you want a live cd that WAS meant for installation try Kanotix. You'll like it.

  3. #3
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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilikazi
    Quote Originally Posted by agendelman

    I wonder if there is sufficient interest in a community of knoppix users, who are interested in using knoppix to install debian, who might warrant some space on this or some other forum to address these issues.

    Thank you all, for listening to this llong-winded post.

    cheers
    It's already been addressed. Klaus Knopper has no interest in creating a cd that installs to hdd. The possibility to install to hdd is an afterthought and yes you are right it breaks after installation. If you want a live cd that WAS meant for installation try Kanotix. You'll like it.
    Hmmm, this reminds me of a quote in the movie "History of the World, Part I" - push the malt wine - you know, you could be a little more subtle

    Problem with Knoppix is that it is just "closely" related to Debian "Sid" to make it a Debian, and with just enough differances, to get it into trouble... Kind of like a small child who wants a cookie, and you show them where the cookie is, but, then tell them they cant have one... Somehow, you know, the child is going to attempt a "cookie caper"

    I have seen Kanotix - it "looks" like Knoppix, ( I havent run it though ), and many swear by it, but, I still run Knoppix ( and yes, I have mine hard drive installed )... I've gone through the Live CD, just booting it, then going for the persistant home thing, then installing "full" hard drive of v3.3, and then "gutting" it, to install v3.4... I have found many ways to "trash" my install, mostly from the differances of Knoppix not being a "true" Sid Distro, but, I am still running Knoppix - I've trashed my install so many times, and feared that "this time" I was going to have to evaporate the drive, and re-install from scratch, and have dug myself out of needing to do that, each time ( partly, actually "wholely", from the assistance, and helpful people who frequent this site )... Each time I have "trashed" my install, I've sworn to the idea of gutting, and going with another Distro, probably Kanotix, and yet, I am still running Knoppix....

    If I have learned anything through all of this, I have learned "you just dont do THAT!" - and "that" being an apt-get upgrade, or an apt-get dist-upgrade -=- for me, that has been the "common" issue, for me, my system, and my install... I should have wallpaper made to be placed in the room where my computer resides, stating: NEVER DO A ... -=- so that, if, God forbid, I ever get the idea of running upgrade or dist-upgrade, I have a constant "blatent" reminder of not doing it...

    Just so you dont get me wrong mzilikazi, I actually agree with you, I would, as I said, "push the malt wine" on this one... Everyone is free to decide for themselves, what they want, I should really do it myself - go for the Kanotix - it sounds good, looks good, has a good following, appears to have the support, etc... ( not to mention the genious Kano, for all of his scripts )

    So, BTW, answer me something I've been "mulling" around for some time now... Mzilikazi, are you Kano ??? ( I know, that came out of nowhere, but, I've sensed this bout you, and am just wondering if your a "loyal follower" that knows his Kanotix, or if you are really the "Big Guy" ? )

    Ms. Cuddles

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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles

    So, BTW, answer me something I've been "mulling" around for some time now... Mzilikazi, are you Kano ??? ( I know, that came out of nowhere, but, I've sensed this bout you, and am just wondering if your a "loyal follower" that knows his Kanotix, or if you are really the "Big Guy" ? )

    Ms. Cuddles
    Heheh that's funny. Thanks tho! No I am most certainly not Kano. I realize that I'm not so subtle but I just don't have the time I guess... I have become rather disenfranchised with the Knoppix forum lately. The Docs are patheticly out of date and contain vast amounts of incorrect information. I can't tell people to RTFM (well not without a guilty conscience anyway). This is partially due to neglect but also due to the fact that any idiot with a browser and internet connection can edit the documentation. I have complained about this and was basicly told to like it or leave it. What can a guy do? This is not a reflection on Knoppix itself however. Klaus has given the world at large an awesome tool. Without Knoppix there would be no Kanotix.

    I feel that it borders on the ridiculous that we continue to respond to posts that start with "I did an apt-get upgrade to my Knoppix and it's broken". This should not happen because Knoppix should not be installed unless you know what you're doing.

    I beleive that Debian is by far the best distro out there but not becuase of the easy to use installer but rather becasue of apt. Apt is what makes Debian the best so if apt is broken then what is the point of installing Debian???

    You can argue that KDE is better than XFCE but that is all completely subjective and largely dependant on user perspective. apt-get however IS the best package management in the world oeriod because it always works always! Not to mention the fact that the apt repositories have a far greater number of packages than any other.

    RPM's OTOH do not always work and although this has been a know issue for many years yet the problem goes unresolved. The biggest problem you should have wth apt is occasionally getting a package that is broken or one that refuses to overwrite another both of which are easily remedied and no I certainly don't mean 'remedied' in the windows sense of the word which is the equivalent of reinstallation. That is not an option in my book.

    Debian kernels are also the easiest thing in the world to build and install unless you've done a Knoppix installation. Again this should not be so difficult!

    Everything that Kano provides i.e. kernels, nvidia driver installation scripts etc work the same with a bootstrapped Debian installation as they do with a Kanotix install. This speaks volumes does it not?

    Well I will try to behave myself more in the future.

  5. #5
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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by agendelman
    I wonder if there is sufficient interest in a community of knoppix users, who are interested in using knoppix to install debian, who might warrant some space on this or some other forum to address these issues.
    Don't we already have it in the HDD Install forum here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles
    Problem with Knoppix is that it is just "closely" related to Debian "Sid" to make it a Debian, and with just enough differances, to get it into trouble...
    Exactly what does this mean? I've seem this claim several times (that being a mixure of unstable/testing/stable causes problems) but I've never understood why this would cause problems. I mean you could start out with Woody & upgrade some apps to testing & some apps to unstable & that shouldn't cause any problems so....



    I have seen Kanotix ....... I've gone through the Live CD, just booting it, then going for the persistant home thing, then installing "full" hard drive of v3.3, and then "gutting" it, to install v3.4... I have found many ways to "trash" my install, mostly from the differances of Knoppix not being a "true" Sid Distro, but, I am still running Knoppix ....

    If I have learned anything through all of this, I have learned "you just dont do THAT!" - and "that" being an apt-get upgrade, or an apt-get dist-upgrade ...
    I've pretty much been the same route & come to the same conclusion ie upgrade applications but DONT attempt to upgrade system.

    I've also questioned why would anybody want to upgrade system? There doesn't seem to be any improvement in anything after upgrade. I've successfully done it once, the most noticeable difference was that every imaginable service was trying to start at boot up.
    I suppose it was trying to make my custom system into a Debian standard system but that's not what I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilikazi

    ... I have become rather disenfranchised with the Knoppix forum lately. The Docs are patheticly out of date and contain vast amounts of incorrect information. I can't tell people to RTFM (well not without a guilty conscience anyway). This is partially due to neglect but also due to the fact that any idiot with a browser and internet connection can edit the documentation. I have complained about this and was basicly told to like it or leave it. What can a guy do?
    I have noticed this also; I have thought about trying to edit/update some of the obvious errors &/or irrelevant information in some of the docs but I just don't really feel right about it...I mean it's not 'my' doc & here I am going to trash half of it. Wouldn't be so bad if there was a 'docs committee' so at least a couple of people could collaborate on what should/shouldn't be edited.

    I feel that it borders on the ridiculous that we continue to respond to posts that start with "I did an apt-get upgrade to my Knoppix and it's broken". This should not happen because Knoppix should not be installed unless you know what you're doing.
    Yes and No.
    Yes there should be huge cautions about DO NOT APT-GET UPGRADE THIS SYSTEM.

    No to Knoppix shouldn't be installed unless you know what you're doing. Knoppix was my first successful Linux system and I most definitely did not know what I was doing. After several failed attempts at Debian, Mandrake & a couple of others, Knoppix installed to HD was a dream. From there, I started learning how it runs, apt-get change this, edit a config script or two (or three or four...) etc. After a brief test run of Mandrke 9.2 (impossible to upgrade, took a month to install KDE 3.2) I came back. I would still recommend it as THE system to start out with for a beginner even as a HD install. Mandrake was OK...easy install but in two or three months you will be obsolete & cursing the need for distro & version specific rpms & dependency hell. Knoppix may take a bit more initial customizing but maintaining is easy.

    Debian is by far the best distro out there but not becuase of the easy to use installer but rather becasue of apt.
    Absolutely. and Knoppix or a Knoppix derivative like Kanotix or maybe Morphix is the easiest way to get Debian, primarily because it has really good hardware detection & a really complete set of applications (even if you are going to remove half of them).

    Debian kernels are also the easiest thing in the world to build and install unless you've done a Knoppix installation. Again this should not be so difficult!
    OK, I've not tried to do a kernel rebuild. What/why the 'unless you've done a knoppix installation'?

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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilikazi
    ... I have become rather disenfranchised with the Knoppix forum lately. The Docs are patheticly out of date and contain vast amounts of incorrect information. I can't tell people to RTFM (well not without a guilty conscience anyway). This is partially due to neglect but also due to the fact that any idiot with a browser and internet connection can edit the documentation. I have complained about this and was basicly told to like it or leave it. What can a guy do?
    Quote Originally Posted by CrashedAgain
    I have noticed this also; I have thought about trying to edit/update some of the obvious errors &/or irrelevant information in some of the docs but I just don't really feel right about it...I mean it's not 'my' doc & here I am going to trash half of it. Wouldn't be so bad if there was a 'docs committee' so at least a couple of people could collaborate on what should/shouldn't be edited.
    Do you guys have any ideas on this, because I've often felt the same way. Out of sheer frustration at seeing people unable to do anything, I have tried to update some of the items most likely to be encountered by newbies. In some cases, I just wrote new ones.

    So, how do I tell if I'm helping or if I'm one of the idiots???

    The only thing I can figure is to initial or write my name on what I do or change, and that way someone can PM me (or flame me) if I get it wrong. Or, if they do change it, reference their changes in a revision section at the end (similar to the bugs section), so that disagreements can be debated and resolved offline.

    It is frustrating to see people add in false data, or further confuse an article with distracting additions that don't make sense (or even worse, googlebomb links). Maybe we could have authored articles not edited by others, and the WIKI links to them if the mods think that they are useful?

    jd

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    As for "consult the debian forums," well, just don't consult #debian...not unless you're wearing your asbestos knickers. Anyone explain the hostility there? Meanwhile, if you're going to irc, and end up on #debian, try not to let on that you're working on knoppix. Sad but true.

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    Re: knx hd install is not just debian

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilikazi
    Debian kernels are also the easiest thing in the world to build and install unless you've done a Knoppix installation. Again this should not be so difficult!
    I cant seem to agree with that... Considering I did my first, and only kernel compile, with Knoppix, ( to get my NVidia video drivers installed ). I cant speak from experiance, this being the only time I have ever done this kind of thing, and havent done it with any other "Distro", but, from the notes I used, to follow along what I was "supposed" to be doing, it only looked like I did one more thing in the process, that I would "guess" that I wouldnt be doing if I wasnt using Knoppix...

    The one "extra" thing I had to do, was, include the "patch specific" code that makes the kernel "Knoppix" - thats it - and going by this, I would guess, if I didnt include that, it would simply be "Debian", period. That one thing wasnt like, hard, or complicated, or "mind shattering", it was just "another step" to do, kind of thing...

    I have to admit, when I was "collecting" my kernel sources, for this "big" compile, I did have to grab those "specific" patch source code that makes what Knoppix is, which was, one more step, but, that wasnt a big deal either... And, yes, I did have to do another step, I had to change the version of the compiler to what "Knoppix" has been compiled under originally...

    So, the "grand total" of things I had to do, that I would guess, wouldnt have needed to be done, if I wasnt using Knoppix, is a whopping "3"; an extra source code get, and extra source code inclusion, and the compiler version symlink change - I dont think thats complicated, and when you follow with someones "notes" or "HOWTO", which is what I did, it was simply, step 1, step 2, step 3, etc... When I was done, a new kernel was rebuilt, TADA...

    I guess, if we were talking about Kanotix, it would have been easier, just use a nifty script, pre-built, and just run it - it does everything for you, but, thats what makes Knoppix and Kanotix different... We could say the same things about comparing any one Distro to any other Distro - I have heard good things bout any "Distro", and then hear bad things about any Distro... I do have to agree, Knoppix isnt made for HDD installing, though people, including myself, do -=- It has to be the easiest, if not, the best, for Live CD running, and who in there right mind wouldnt want to hard drive install something that they have run, learned, and worked with?

    Knoppix Live CD is kind of like a small child learning to ride a bike; they start off with the training wheels ( the Live CD ), and as they learn, and grow, they remove the training wheels, and the bike is a "real" bike now ( HDD Install ). I guess, if we were going to find a "common ground" here, I would have to say: Use Knoppix for the "training wheels", then, move to Kanotix when you want to remove the training wheels -=- But, doesnt that "sell short" Knoppix? Knoppix has, and I think, will continue, to be HDD installed by anyone, anyone who probably got used to it with the "Live CD"... And to continue the analogy I used; when you remove those training wheels, dont you still keep the bike? You dont throw the bike away and get a new one, do you, you re-use the bike, just without the training wheels added on it...

    Just because the "founder" says, I dont want it to be HDD Installed, and I'm not going to "support" that feature in Knoppix, doesnt, and hasnt, stopped anyone from doing it, in fact, it may have only "fueled" people doing it... Best "reverse marketing" scheme I have ever heard. If you wanted to "make" people do something, dont say you can do it with this, but, rather, say you cant ! Or shouldnt. Nothing fuels the fire more, than to say "you just cant do that!" How many people, have taken "that you cant do that", and turned it into, "yes you can!" ? Knoppix is a perfect example of that, you can, and many people have proven it... Heck, I used to believe you "cant" have a stable system, or a system that "doesnt" require rebooting a few times a day, and turned it into, yes you "can", and no you "dont".

    So, the long, and short of it, is, you cant say that Knoppix "cant" do this, or "cant" do that, people have proven that false, it may not be "made" for that, but, that will never stop anyone from doing it, or trying to do it. It may not be as "graceful" as something else, in any of these "cant" situations, but, that doesnt mean you "cant". This, isnt to say, that something else "can" do it better, or easier, but, more options, and choices, doesnt invalidate the simple fact that, you "can" and "could" do it, with Knoppix...

    I could go on for days, saying that Knoppix is only to be used for "Live CD", and that Kanotix should be used for HDD Installing, but, not only would I be flamed because people are doing it, but, that, a lot of people "arent" doing it. Choice. The freedom of choice, and personal prefferance, people will do what they want, and if you say: "You cant do this", people are going to prove you wrong, or work there hardest to prove you wrong... I used to deal with that same thinking, being a VB programmer, people always said: "you cant do 'this' in VB." - to which, I proved them wrong, you can, it may not be "pretty", it may not be the "best", but, you can do it. Same is true with Knoppix, people will always say that "you cant do that in Knoppix.", and people will always be coming back around later, and saying: "yes, you can."

    I was the small child, the one who used Knoppix for its training wheels, as many have, and will continue to do, long after I might move to something else. But, when I wanted to remove the training wheels, I didnt want to "learn" a new bike, I want the same bike I got used to riding, with its handlebars, and the seat at just the right heigth, the peddles, etc... And this bike was working perfectly for me, I didnt have to "break in" a new bike, and, this bike "could" be used as a normal bike, why throw it away? Why should I have to? Why "buy" a new bike, when the old bike works fine, and was made to do this? Knoppix has the training wheels, and has the ability to have a regular bike, after you remove the training wheels, why throw it away? Now, as I grow bigger, and possibly out-grow that "old" bike, I may be in the market for "buying" a new bike, one that fits me better, or is made in such a way that you CANT put training wheels on it, its a "BIG PERSONS" bike, kind of thing, and then, I will be looking to other Distro's...

    Just my two schillings worth

  9. #9
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    CrashedAgain
    To explain my comment bout "just closely to Debian..." thing....

    I think its what you "start out with" that makes the whole thing problematic ( my best guess )

    If I had a "woody" install, everything would be starting out at "stable", if I had a "sarge" install, everything would be starting out at "testing", etc... With Knoppix, everything is starting out with a "mixture" - hence, hodge-podged...

    I would take a guess, that even a "woody" install, after years of constant "upgrading" out of its "stable" forum, would possibly get to what we, as Knoppix, are dealing with... This is probably even true for a "sarge" install... And this would also make for why Kanotix has such success, it is more "closely" related to "sid" than we, as Knoppix, are... Kanotix is more at a "starting point" than we, as Knoppix, are...

    If I am correct on this, my best idea on making Knoppix less prone to these "fits", is to hard drive install it, and then "downgrade" everything into a "unstable", or "testing", or "stable" Distro of Debian... But, I am quite sure, not "everything" can be done this way, and something will be left -=- and if you "really" wanted that Distro, why not just go straight to Debian for it ?

    So, Knoppix is starting out with everything, possible, precariously installed, and when you try and change something, like "upgrade", you have more of a chance of "breaking" this precariously balanced install, which is not to say, that this precariously balanced install in the first place doesnt work, just that when you change something, it may make this "balance" a little more "unbalanced" - does that make any sense ????

    Thats what I'm thinking,

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaedral
    As for "consult the debian forums," well, just don't consult #debian...not unless you're wearing your asbestos knickers. Anyone explain the hostility there? Meanwhile, if you're going to irc, and end up on #debian, try not to let on that you're working on knoppix. Sad but true.
    I have found, when dealing with any source, outside of Knoppix's Forums, you use the following:

    ( 1 ) Use the keyword: Debian Sid Distro, or possibly, "my own custom kernel of Debian Sid", this later one may get you "in" with the source code "fanatics", but, then again, you may get more responses on "what did you hack?", or "what did you add?" - which may deter from your original question or concern
    ( 2 ) Never, I repeat, never, use the word: cheatcodes - no one, outside of Knoppix, has even the faintest clue what "that" is - and if you use it, you will be spending more time "explaining" it, than what your "real" issue is all about

    Experiance from working with the email newsgroup ALSA, hopefully, this information will help the next person who wants to get answers, and not spend a week, or two, just explaining "what exactly DO you have?", or, "That isnt something in a NORMAL Distro", kind of thing

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