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Thread: Need help

  1. #1
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    Need help

    I have 2 hard drives, both nfts. One is windows 2000 and the other is just there and i keep some files on it. I want to install knoppix on the second one yet keep the files i already have on that drive. I understand i can do this by partioning the drive? yet i am not completly sure how to do so. Please help me

  2. #2
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    Welcome to the Wonderful World of Multi-Booting!

    In the case of just two operating systems, you can call it dual booting, but why limit yourself? It's not only a great way to give Linux a try, but it can turn into a whole hobby in itself. On the Athlon I bought last year, which came with Windows XP, I added five varieties of Linux, and on the Pentium III that sits next to it, I have WinMe and (at the moment) just one Linux.

    So be careful, it can get addictive. You might wind up like the guy who wrote a book where he mentions running 8 operating systems on one machine: DR-DOS, Win98, NT 4.0, OS/2, BeOS, FreeBSD, and the two Linux distributions, SuSE and Debian. Should you really want to dig into multibooting down the road, I recommend looking for his book:

    - The Multi-Boot Configuration Handbook
    - by Roderick W. Smith
    - copyright 2000, Que Corporation
    - ISBN 0-7897-2283-6
    - 640 pages!!!

    The book needs some updating - maybe you're the one to write a new "handbook"!

    Okay, maybe later.

    There are different ways to go about this, especially the re-partiitioning, but start by seeing it as only a few steps, with each step a simple concept. Tricky, maybe, or frustrating if things don't go quite right, but simple in concept.

    The first three steps are Plan, Plan, Plan. Then make room for the new OS, install the new OS, and tell the computer how to find the new OS so that you get choices at boot time.

    The planning is mostly stuff you've already thought about, like your reason for installing a Linux, how much space is on the hard drive in question, how soon you might be getting a larger drive, and your current and near-future uses for Win2K.

    Also, you really need to put some thought into What To Do When Things Go Horribly, Terribly Wrong. Not "if," but "when."

    I'm not saying that installing a Linux will trigger that event, but increasing complexity always increases risk. You know that. You also know that any single operating system (such as a Windows) is capable of blowing up all on its own. So you probably have some contingency plans already in place.

    The very good news is that a Knoppix CD is itself is a great tool, even if you decide to never have a Linux installed on your hard drives. To see why, I recommend this book:

    - Knoppix Hacks
    - by Kyle Rankin
    - copyright 2005 (but published late last year)
    - ISBN 0-596-00787-6

    There's a chapter just on how to use Knoppix to fix Things That Went Horribly, Terribly Wrong In Windows.

    Okay, before getting into what you asked about, I'm going to make two recommendations. One of them is heresy and may get me banned from the forum, but....

    First, the more orthodox suggestion. Re-visit the idea of keeping the Win2K files on the second drive. Is it for insurance, in case the first drive goes down? Do you have another set of backups stored away from your computer, in case a power failure causes head crashes and unreadable sectors on both drives at the same time? Would you like to access those files from both Windows and Linux?

    What I'm edging toward is devoting the entire second drive to Linux. Or at least to not having an NTFS partition on that drive. It would make some things a little less complex.

    To keep the files accesible by Windows, you'll want them in an NTFS or FAT32 partition. You can store the files inside a Linux partition, but Windows won't see them. But they'll still be there, so if they're backups of files on the first drive you can get to them through Linux (and copy them back out to where Windows can find them).

    Until recently, Linux could read and write to FAT32 partitions just fine but reliably only read from NTFS. Now Linux has a way to write to NTFS - I haven't used it, it's supposed to be good stuff, but I use a FAT32 partition to share things between XP and Linux. Works great.

    And/or, if you could make it so you're not counting on those files absolutely, positively being on that second drive, you would feel more free to experiment in ways that could make that drive temporarily - ummmm - unreadable. At least by Windows. Fear not, the bootable Knoppix CD will almost certainly be able to Save The Day. Still, if they're your only copies of those cute baby pictures that your spouse will kill you for losing this could influence your plans.

    Okay, second suggestion. Re-visit the idea of installing Knoppix to hard drive.

    Yes, Knoppix is great. In fact, I'm willing to stand (nearly) naked on any street corner in America and proclaim that Knoppix is the most important development in personal-computing operating systems in the last five years. That the standard it sets in detecting and configuring hardware is exactly what Linux has needed to reach the average computer user even though others thought that duplicating the look of Windows and complexity of Office would finally spark the revolution of the proletariat.

    Still, maybe another Linux for your hard drive.

    Knoppix is fantastic as an OS-on-a-disk. And the installation to hard drive is very, very simple by Linux standards. But it has a few issues. One is that the process of hd-install is still a little rough. There seem to be some fumbles with, ironically enough, using CD-ROM drives once it's installed. It's unfriendly to pre-existing multiboot setups. And then, you may find yourself typing on a German keyboard - oops, where did that semicolon go?

    There are other varieties of Linux that started from Knoppix and added their own twists. Of these, my favorite is Morphix. The installation to hd is just as easy, is a bit better integrated, and gives better results (for me, anyway). The Morphix flavor they call "light" is a smaller download than Knoppix, which also means it doesn't have as much stuff. (There's a new "heavy" version that I haven't downloaded yet.)

    But "light" has everything you need for surfing the web, processing the word, and dinking with Linux. And, as with Knoppix, the underlying base is Debian, so there's a huge repository of stuff you can add plus good tools to help you do that.

    Another of my favorite varieties of Linux (or "distros," as they're called - short for "distributions") is Red Hat's Fedora Project. A few years ago this company's product (Red Hat 7.3 to be precise) saved me from completely giving up on Linux. It correctly detected my mouse and video board and just plain worked.

    Red Hat is widely scorned as being just as bloated as Windows. The zero-dollar download (now called Fedora Core 3) is four CDs. But that's, what, 30% more software than the 2 GB of uncompressed Knoppix? And FC3 was just ranked #2 by the UK magazine Linux Format. (They ranked Mandrake #1 even while admitting it occasionally crashed. It's beyond me how they could put it in the top 10 when their intended audience is just-folks computer users. Oh well.)

    The way that Red Hat handles adding and removing software is different from Debian-based distros and considered not as good. There are other plusses and minusses, and many of them apply to the other big packages that originate with commercial developers, Mandrake and SuSE.

    Enough to think about? :P

    Write back, and we'll start breaking ... errr ... partitioning that drive!

    -- Ed

  3. #3
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    Thank you so much for your help. Im certain that I want to install knoppix at least for the time being because it is the only linux operating system that I have expieremented with. To make things easier I will call the drive with Windows 2000 drive 1 and the other drive drive 2. I may soon have shortage of space on drive 1 so I must have a small amount of space for Windows files on drive 2. I have a small amount of files on drive 2 which I would like to keep there as well. In other words I would like to have drive 2 divided into part for windows by keeping it ntfs or possibly FAT32 and 1 part for Knoppix. I have read some of the forums and I understand that some people divide their linux hard drive into 3 parts. One was for swap, the other for the operating system I believe, and the other i am unsure. What is the reason for this and would this be a good to do? I feel I should tell you that I only have 192mb ram. Also as you know I need help on partitioning the drive and doing the dual boot OS thing. One last question, Is it possible to have my computer boot on Windows 2000 automatically since I will be using this most often and I share the computer with other people. For example, could I have the computer boot on Drive 1 first, and then when I want to have run knoppix I simply switch the boot order in bios to boot drive 2 first? Again thank you for your help.

  4. #4
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    Re: Need help

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewg678
    I have 2 hard drives, both nfts. One is windows 2000 and the other is just there and i keep some files on it. I want to install knoppix on the second one yet keep the files i already have on that drive. I understand i can do this by partioning the drive? yet i am not completly sure how to do so. Please help me
    Yes, this is quite a common setup. First, back up the files on the second drive.

    Then (easy way) just install Knoppix on it. The installer should make a partition as part of the install.

    Or (better way) make 3 partitions on this drive:
    one about 4-5 Gig linux ext3 to put knoppix on. Linux will call this hdb1
    one about 500 meg for linux swap (hdb2)
    the remainder format vfat (fat 32) for data. Both linux and windows can share this drive. (hdb3)
    (Always keep your data separate from your operating system, then you won't lose it if you have a crash).

    Then install knoppix. When it asks where to put lilo, put lilo on the MBR. It should end up on the MBR of the first drive (the one with windows on it) since this is what your bios has set as the boot drive.

    You should now be able to boot into knoppix. To make windows your default boot, edit /etc/lilo.conf; change 'default=linux' to 'default=windows' (the name used here must match the name found in the image= section which boots your windows system). Then run lilo to implement the changes. You must be root to edit lilo.conf and to run lilo.
    To run the text editor kate as root, first set a root password if you dont' already have one ('sudo passwd' is the command to use) then start kate from a terminal with 'kdesu kate /etc/lilo.conf'. Kate has a built-in terminal window you can use to run lilo (you will already be root) or from a normal terminal window 'sudo lilo'.

    You can write to you vfat partition from linux but don't write to your windows partition(hda1) unless you use 'captive ntfs'

  5. #5
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    Oh yes, you absolutely can set Windows to be the default OS. And you can (but don't have to) set a timer so that the computer will go ahead and boot to the default if the user doesn't press a key. The users will see this in the menu at boot time along with information you can customize.

    Or you can hide Knoppix from other users, or lock it so a password is required for it. Of course, we all want to encourage people to play with Linux, right? And there's no need to mess with BIOS settings. Your boot loader is your friend, and it will just offer you options and obey your commands.

    And now a word from our sponsor. You're running out of room on drive 1 - can you budget $5 to $10 a week for a bigger one? At Best Buy a few days ago I saw they were holding steady at about $1/GB (although maximum capacity is growing). I remember being excited when prices came down to $1/MB! A Linux "live CD," such as Knoppix, can help you move everything to the new drive, too. Just a thought.

    Okay, back to drive 2 - or /hdb as you'll call it when speaking Linux. You'll want at least 3 partitions: one or more for Windows, a Linux swap, and one or more formatted for Knoppix and data storage for Linux programs.

    The rule of thumb for swap partitions is to make them between 1x and 2x the size of your installed RAM. With less RAM there will be more swapping, so 380 or 385 MB would be fine. You usually can't hit an exact number, so anything close will do.

    The info page at knoppix.com doesn't give a minimum installation size because - silly people - they think we run Knoppix from CD! You'll want 2.5 GB as an absolute bare minimum, though. That would give you enough room to use the disk-installed programs, write some text files, and cache some web pages while you surf. There won't be much breathing room for downloading and installing more packages though.

    More is better, but 5 GB is probably realistic if you can swing it. If you make at least one of the Windows partitions FAT32, you can count some of that for storing a few files that you'd like to work on from within Knoppix. If you want to maximize Windows' ability to expand onto drive 2, this might be part of your thinking.

    You may also need to decide about primary and logical partitions - I didn't give Knoppix-installer a choice on this one. You can have from 1 to 4 primary partitions on any hard drive. If you want more than four partitions, you get 1 to 3 primary plus 1 extended, and the extended partition is subdivided into as many logical partitions as you want or need.

    Windows must boot from the first primary partition on the first hard drive (hda1 in Linux terms) - you're okay there. Aside from that, it mostly makes no difference whether stuff is on a primary or logical drive. Linux will label the primary partitions on your drive 2 hdb1 to hdb4. Even if you have only one primary partition, extended partitions will start with hdb5.

    More thoughts on Windows

    (a) one partition, NTFS - this is the easiest; you'll "just" be resizing the (presently whole-drive) partition;

    (b) one partition, FAT32 - of course you'll sign in blood the warning that all files on the drive should be backed up before partitioning; in situation (a), they might stay safe; in situation (b), you will lose those files, and they'll have to be restored from backup;

    (c) two partitions, one of each - probably best if you want to share files between Windows and Linux and keep the Windows files safe;

    (d) two partitions, both NTFS - if you want to play with writing to NTFS from Linux and still keep the pre-existing Windows files safe (by keeping them in their own partition and not writing to it from Linux).

    Thoughts on Knoppix

    Besides a swap file, it used to be common understanding that you'd make 3, 5, or maybe more partitions per unix-type operating system. But for hobbyist use, I honestly think one is just fine.

    The reasons for multiple partitions mostly have to do with safety (and convenience), security, and enforcement of size allocations.

    Safety: if one partition gets fouled up for whatever reason, the rest are safe. Also, backups are smaller. The /usr directory, when it's in its own partition, can be backed up nightly whereas system directories can be backed up, say, weekly.

    Security: when an intruder breaks into one partition, they may not be able to get at stuff in other partitions.

    Size: there are other ways to do this, but basically if something goes wild and writes gigabytes per second to one of the partitions, it will presumably stop when that partition fills up, leaving the stuff that works in other partitions unaffected. Users who hang SPAM ME signs around the net are one source of the problem, computer operations that are generating tons of error and warning messages are another.

    Last steps before partitioning

    - Back up your Windows files. To disk 1 if you have room, otherwise it depends on the size of your files and what you have available. Write them to CD-ROM, for example. Emailing them to yourself is also used.

    - Defragment disk 2. Just having the files defragmented is reason enough (if your defragger will do that), but if you keep the Windows partition as the first one on the drive, and the files have all been moved to the very beginning of the drive, you may not need to restore the files from backup. But if you decide you'll be restoring from backup regardless, skip the defrag. Restoring them from backup will do it for you.

    - Choose your partitioner. I do it so often that I buy Partition Magic every time they release a new edition. Don't get it just for this one operation, but if you have it, or have access to it, I think it's the best way to split up a Windows-only drive. It makes sure your Windows files stay in the Windows partition, picking them up and moving them as necessary. I've never had to restore from backup after resizing or moving a Windows partition.

    If Partition Magic isn't there for you, just go with the flow in Knoppix-installer.

    - Choose your bootloader. This is mostly a warning: if you do use Partition Magic, I plead with you not to also use Boot Magic. It writes its own data to space inside File Allocation Tables (not sure it even works if you don't have a FAT partition). That's way too dangerous.

    Knoppix-installer doesn't give you a choice - it installs LILO. You don't have to leave it that way; you can put another bootloader in its place later. But LILO works great.

    - Decide where to install LILO. Here's something I don't know about Win2K - is it enough like NT/XP to be able to multiboot? If so, and if that's what you want to use for booting Windows, then tell Knoppix-installer to put LILO in the Linux boot sector so it won't tromp on the Win bootloader.

    Otherwise, have Knoppix-installer put LILO in your computer's Master Boot Record. LILO boots all flavors of Windows - and more!

    Now ... go!

    Plan, Plan, Plan is over. It's time to make room for Knoppix, install Knoppix, and customize how Knoppix and Windows boot.

    If you use Partition Magic or another Windows-based partitioner, heed this rule: Use Windows tools on Windows partitions and Linux tools on Linux partitions. That is, go ahead and tell Partition Magic that the new partitions will be Linux, but then let Knoppix-installer format them again. Knoppix will be happier that way.

    Otherwise just run Knoppix-installer, answer a few questions, and you're done. If you're going with only one non-swap Linux partition, tell Knoppix-installer to mount it to / - until you have that mount point, K-i won't let you proceed anyway.

    Post-installation

    - Find your Windows partition(s). Knoppix-installer may hide the Windows partitions on disk 2. Yes, hide. When you boot into Windows, you may be horrified to find that drive 2 has disappeared. (I know I was!)

    If so, here's what happened: Windows can't see the Linux partitions anyway. The NTFS and FAT32 partitions? Knoppix-installer apparently does you the "favor" of changing them from regular to hidden in the drive's partition table. My guess is that it doesn't want Windows to get confused at boot time by seeing more than one Windows operating system, or seeing a Windows system that's outside the first-drive-first-partition rule.

    K-i must think that these non-bootable Windows partitions are potentially bootable. It even puts them into the LILO configuration file for you. How nice. Here's a quick sanity check: if the Windows partitions are there, Knoppix sees them. Booting into Knoppix, you can check /etc/lilo.conf and /etc/fstab - they'll be there. Post back for help un-hiding them in the partition table.

    - Restore backed-up files.

    - Configure LILO the way you want it. Change the default OS, change the timeout, change the text that displays, and on and on. In particular, the timeout may be too short for users to grasp everything that's on the boot menu. If Windows really got set as the default, that may be okay. If not, change the timeout first. It's specified in tenths of a second, so maybe start with 150 to give yourself 15 seconds to get a good idea of how the screen looks to other users.

    This stuff is all in /etc/lilo.conf - after you edit that file you must type

    # lilo

    for the changes to take place. Just rebooting won't do it.

    - Find your CD-ROM drive. It's ironic considering that Knoppix is intended to run from CD, but Knoppix-installer completely hosed this up on my installation and that of at least one other person on this forum. If your drive works in Windows but not in Knoppix, post back for help.

    Have fun, and don't forget to write!

    -- Ed

  6. #6
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    Again I cannot thank you for all of your help. I have decided that if I will need to back drive 2 up that I might as well put them on the other drive. Drive 2 is now empty. So I plan to install knoppix on drive 2 with about 3-4.5gb for knoppix including swap. The remainder I would like to be FAT32 for both Windows and Knoppix (this will most likely be used to hold music and such). This drive is only 6gb and I am definately planning on buying a larger one sometime. My only remaining questions are 1. how do I begin the installation of knoppix 2. is there any special way i need to format the partition for linux and the swap (Im geussing this is simple and I will figure it out on the install screen) and 3. I am considering making linux hidden to others. At first I thought i could simply write lilo onto drive 2 and set bios to boot drive 1 first, but I have come to realize that the 2 hard drives are not seperated in the boot order. How would I proceed in making linux hidden? I hope this is not to much of a hassle. If it is, would i be able to make the bios selection timer for the operating system selection very short ?

  7. #7
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    I just discovered a problem. My knoppix 3.7 cd can never load fully. it recognizes hardware then trys to load stuff off the cd and i get errors could not load XXXXkb data lost. If you happen to know how to fix this that would be great, otherwise i could look for the problem in the forums. It did say in the loading screen try init=option in kernal, not really sure what this means but i tried typing it in for the boot: but it would not work. Ill try reburning the iso with another burning software. Ive already tryed 2 different iso files with my current one. One more quick question: should i make a windows 2000 boot cd before installing knoppix in case something goes wrong. I have a feeling the answer is that I should already have one.

  8. #8
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    Well, nuts. Let's tackle stuff in order.

    Yes, first do what you need to do to preserve your existing Windows setup. Make a boot CD if that's an option.

    Do you have a floppy drive? That will help in a couple of ways, first by also making a boot floppy for Windows (which would possibly make your system come up faster than from a CD). Later on, a boot floppy for Linux may be helpful.

    Then, do you have a Windows program to check the Knoppix iso you downloaded? Something that talks about doing an md5sum. I've tried a couple in WinXP that don't seem to work, but there are others. The way this works is, the site you downloaded from tells you what the md5sum is for the iso they have stored. Then you have a program calculate the md5sum on your download.

    If the download is off by even one bit, the md5sums won't match, and that has to be resolved before you can move on. But if the two match, the download is good and you troubleshoot from that point onward.

    -- Ed

  9. #9
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    Actually, don't go looking for a Win-32 version of md5sum - you can run it from the Knoppix CD on a file in an NTFS partition. It doesn't affect the file in any way, so there's no danger to Windows.

    -- Ed

  10. #10
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    I have figured out the problem. At the boot screen I would type init=option but i forgot to add knoppix before this. It now boots normally. I find this out because i never had to do this in previous versions. I will make the windows boot cd as soon as possible. In the mean time could you tell me how to begin the installer and if theres a certain way I need to partion drive 2 or is it pretty much self explanatory with the partition for linux, swap, and fat32. Thankyou

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