ABOUT TO GIVE UP!!!!!

[LoneTrantorian]

<scratching head> You apparently have an issue with people
who wish to learn things that are new to them. Such condition
is, by nature, self correcting. So why the issue, and why the
insult? Kiddo, some of us old folks have been doing this (waz
BBS then) since one had to figure out the parity & stop bits to
set on one's modem. Sheesh. I thank you for not responding to
my post when I needed basic assistance.

-Mouse

Frustrated only by idiot posts like this one..

[Cuddles]

MindJester,

I can see where you are coming from, I have worked in the "support" field, see any of my "heart-felt" previous posts. Most of my "lengthly" posts, usually, come from the heart, and, on a subject that I feel "strongly" about. So, be fore-warned -=- This might be one of those...

I have had many "support" calls, having done support for family, friends, and having the "job", of support for Microsoft, previously, I had a sense of "people", down to a sceince...

After taking more than 1,000 support calls for Microsoft, first in Win95 roll-out, and then, for MSN Online support, you learn to "feel out" people, in what, and how they say things, and, in most cases, this needed to be done, within the first two minutes of talking to them. This is "my take" on the "education" of support. ( NO ONE, I repeat, no one, take offense to this... It is only intended to educate, and possibly, enlighten. )

I have found that there is two kinds of people in the world, when it comes to "computer support":

The first, I call, stupid people - these kinds of people, are, usually, paranoid that they may have done something wrong, pressed the wrong button, ran the wrong program, etc... The usual "intro" you get from these people, within the first sentence of talking with them, is, "I'm completely computer illiterate". All these kinds of people need, is, education. They need assistance on "finding" there answers, and then, they learn from that education. These are the easiest of the two kind of people, to be dealing with. They learn, they want to learn, they want resolution, and, they are willing, to work "with you" to get it done.

The second, and the worst of these two kinds of people, is, idiots - these kinds of people, are, usually, about the same as stupid poeple, when it comes down to helping, except, no matter how hard you try, or work with them, they are completely incapable of learning ANYTHING. They may try and sabotage any attempts of you helping them, they may stall, they may not follow what you need them to do, and, in most cases, they dont care about the problem, or issue, or, its resolve. What they care about, is, having someone do it for them, any, and all, times. This is not the same as "hand holding". Hand Holding is a human characteristic, from people who dont want to mess things up any more than what they already "feel" they have been messed up, which, may only be in there own head. The problem could just be blown out of proportion, due to the persons lack of knowledge, and knowing just how little damage they had done. Hand Holding and "idiots", are, lets see, a fine line? After a person who needs "hand holding" learns, or is educated, they tend not to need to be hand held any more, whereas, an idiot, would continue, as long as you were willing to continue to hold there hand.

An idiot, gernerally speaking, would rather YOU drive from New York to Los Angeles, and "personally" fix the problem "for them", rather than, have you "assist" them through a forum. An idiot, would, rather re-post the same problem, over and over, again, to get, yet another response, that, states the exact same as previous posts, than to "know" they can "search" or "bookmark" a previous post, to get there repeated answer, for a problem. ( this is not the same, if you dont "know" you can search, an idiot "would know" that they could search, and would rather re-post another thread, whereas, the "stupid person", would, after learning about searching, would, learn to search, and not make a second "repeat" posting. )

To add more into these "two kinds of people", you also have "degrees", or, "hues", of these two. Like: total idiot, complete idiot, clueless idiot, mild idiot, and, the same goes for "stupid". Now, these are all "my" definitions, so, dont take any of this personal, most people are just "stupid". They need to be educated, and, once they get that "education", they are no longer, stupid. Idiots, on the other hand, are ALWAYS idiots, they never "get" educated, they never learn, they dont "grow", and they stay, constantly, as an idiot. "education", as by my definition, does not lend itself to a "College Degree", or "High School Degree", or even classes, it can come in ANY form. This can be from talking to a friend, or a "tech support" person, or, even, paying someone, to fix a problem. The "education" comes from any source of learning, its what is "done" with that education.

To give an example:

( #1 ) (person requiring help, and asking) I am having a problem finding out what process, or, is it a program (?), which is running on my system? I am sorry, Ms. Cuddles, but, I am "a complete computer illiterate person" when it comes to dealing with these things.

( #2 ) (me) Well, "person #1", its called a process, but, it can also be called a program, no big deal. As for the "illiterate" thing, I wasnt "born" with this information either, so, you are in good company, and, if you stick with it, I am quite sure, that, you will learn it, and be able to handle doing a lot of things on your own. Now, on to your issue... Open up a root Konsole, and type ps auxw at the prompt. That is a complete list of "everything" that is running on your system, you can scroll up and down the list to view everything that was displayed. ALSO... If you want to learn more about what you just typed, you can view the "man pages" on that command, by, typing the following, in that same window, man ps - the "ps" command has a lot of other "switches" or command line arguments that can change the output, or give less, or more, specific, information, for you. You can use that "man" command, for almost all the commands in Linux.

Ok, first of all, lots more "information" was given, than, in most cases, or from some people, but, the "jest" is along the right lines. My first question: Was the person asking for assistance "stupid", or an "idiot" ?

ANSWER: Kind of missleading, actually... the person has the "signs" of be "stupid", they did say the "tell tale" sentence, but, an idiot "could" say the same thing. Whats the answer, you dont know at this point. What you have to do is, speed up time, to say, the next time they have this same problem, or issue, and see what happens. When that time comes, if the person looks for there previous post, or does a search for it, or, do they post the exact same thing, again, and, probably, get the exact same response? Will they use the "knowledge" of looking in the man pages? Will they, if the problem is finding out more about ANY command, will they use the information given on using the man pages, or, will they post a completely new thread on "whats the command option to get everything that is running on my system?" -=- NOW! we have our answer!

Before I get flamed, and my asbestos suit is in for cleaning, on, "but, some people dont learn so quickly" - I will elaborate on the whole "stupid / idiot" analogy. You can have a "dense" stupid person, some people dont "retain", and some people, dont "catch on" very quickly, thats not to say they are an "idiot" - it would come down to what they do, after the initial communication. Lets say, person #1 above, may not be the quickest, or the 500W light bulb in the pack... You might have a second post, from this person, saying something, like, "I forgot how I search again", "I know you gave me the information, but, I cant find it", "what was the thread again?", or even, "How do I get in to the "root" Konsole?" - thats just "learning". Whereas, a idiot, would re-post the exact same post, again, and EVEN, with the "original" post still showing on the page. An idiot would be "completely oblivious" to the fact that they EVER posted a thread previously on the same subject, and make no referance to the fact that one ever existed.

I have to admit, I have been an idiot in some ways, in some subjects, for the life of me, I can not learn the "break-down" of the English Language... I can make sentences, and "what sounds right" stuff, but, ask me to pick out the predicate, or adjective, I might be able to find the NOUN, but... So, I admit it, I am a complete, and utter, IDIOT, when it comes to English. I have taken courses, classes, you name it, and I just cant learn it. I am "stupid" in a few subjects, as well... I was stupid when it came to Windows, but, I learned... I was stupid, when it comes to Knoppix / Kanotix / Linux, but, I AM learning. One of the "biggest" tricks I learned, back in my "pre-1000 post" days, was, using my own posts, from clicking on my nick, and using "show me all the posts for this nick" function - came in real handy on some of the "repeat" problems I kept having. Like ALSA, or getting i2c, or lm-sensors, running on the three systems I have running Linux, now. I was learning, but, I dont think I ever re-posted a repeat thread, I did searching, I did research, I re-read my previous posts - to see if maybe I could "gleam" any new information from my past posts, and, I learned by helping other people with there problems, as well.

I dont mind "hand holding" someone, while they are learning, but, I liken the thought to what a lot of my "College" instructors would always say, within the first two days of the class starting:

"There is no stupid question", to continue, "...except the one that is not asked."

When it comes to "technical support", I like to add my own addendum to that though:

"...but, it IS a stupid question, IF, you have to ask it a SECOND TIME." -=- especially, when you have a hard copy, or search capability, to find your already asked, and answered, previous, question. I dont like redundancy when it comes to a forum, and having the ability to search for previous topics, threads, answers, questions, etc... that just makes a person an idiot, in my own words.

To finish up, I would like to use an example, of my definitions, I stated in this response...

A stupid person would, have a support tech, show up at there house, pay them $500 per hour, and have them show them how to use the "ps" command I gave in my response here. A stupid person, would, probably, write down what the command was, ask tons of additional questions about other command line switches on that command, find out how to get additional information on the command, on there own, and never want to call that technician back, for the rest of there lives.

Whereas, the idiot, would not only, not care about how much they are paying the technician in the first place, not care to ask additional questions, not want to learn anything for this "costly" venture, but, and here is the kicker, WOULD call them back, when they needed to know that EXACT SAME command, again. An idiot, would not settle for calling them back once, but, as many times as they needed to run that command, five, six, seven, initinate, times.

In my case, I wouldnt really care, who I got, if I was that technician. Heck, who DOESNT need that kind of money? I am quite sure, all the techs from the shop, would be killing to get that kind of job. I "would" get a little apathetic to the idiot, after a while, "you know, you can learn this stuff, and save a ton of money, you know?" - kind of thing. As for the stupid person, I'd be just as happy to have a person ask tons of questions, from me, considering the cost, and the issue at hand, I mean, "I dont have that kind of money", and if I had to shell that much out, I'd want to get my "moneys worth" for sure, from it. I had to deal with both of these kinds of people, when I worked for Microsoft, I didnt mind, much, but, people realized that the "free" support fell off after a few months, and then it started to cost them. I just hoped that the "idiots" that were using the "free" support, became "stupid" after it started to "cost them".

I, guess, just by my own wording, I am a stupid person by nature, and not an idiot. I want to learn. In some cases, I need a little "hand holding", and in others, I just need the information, it depends on the situation. I like to learn, and grow, and strive, for knowing what, when, and how, to do things, especially when it comes to computers.

Oh well, I guess this is another "famous" Ms. Cuddles, "heart-felt", and lengthly, posting... Sorry
Ms. Cuddles

[PlatinumPlus]

okay for 2 weeks i have been desperately trying to use knoppix. i love the look and feel and all the custumizations etc. i can fianally see why microsoft has the monopoly. this just does not work! i try to watch a dvd and it tells me i can't even though i installed a dvd player. i try to burn a cd it says i can't i don't have permission! permission from who???? this is my****** computer

......


i am so frustrated yet i still want to use linux on my computer!
wanting to vent
thanks
pat

this is the funniest posts I have seen in years, but what made me laugh the most was how knoppixtryer echoed some of the feelings I've had for some time but have now grown to understand. When I first used Linux it was RedHat and it was because I got a job and was the only IT guy there. I had to support email i.e add, remove users and see why people were not able to send and receive emails. I knew about 5 commands and they got me going (Year 2003). When I left the job that same year sadly I left Linux and that was to be until about 5 months ago. A friend re-introduced me to it telling me about the new desktops and all. I bought an old IBM PII and decided to try it out. He 'installed' Kubuntu by copying files straight from his HDD. I couldn't understand this. It booted all fine but I started getting errors and I wanted to give up. He then copied Knoppix 3.6 and whenever I typed an incorrect command, it gave the error message in German and everything was read-only. These 2 flavors lasted a few days until I got RH9. thats when things became clearer because I soon discovered Linux could be installed 'properly'. I started getting the hang of partioning into swap and the HDA1's and 2s. I started downloading and playing around with different distros. Then I it started to get clearer why we have names like Debian, Slackware etc and why we can talk of Knoppix, Kanotix, DSL etc etc. Then came the issue of network and sound drivers and this lost me for some time until I came to this forum (though the network issue has not been resolved). I was about to give up on Linux again after installing Knoppix 4.0.2 but finally I got the sound going on my PII and PIII and the network working on the PIII but not the PII even though MS can pick my old 10MB card!!! But i won't give up. I am working on luring a few MS fans to Linux and Knoppix in particular with the concept Anything that MS can do Knoppix can do better( except for spreading viruses and the blue screen of death)

[Cuddles]

1 ) I was about to give up on Linux again after installing Knoppix 4.0.2...

2 ) I am working on luring a few MS fans to Linux and Knoppix...

3 ) Anything that MS can do Knoppix can do better( except for spreading viruses and the blue screen of death)

Hmmm, PlatinumPlus,

I think this is a "common" feeling, especially, when dealing with a new thing. If we took a census on "Were you about to give up on Linux?" -=- I would think 95% (plus) would answer "yes". I, myself, had, numerous times, thought of ditching my Knoppix, and run back to what I knew, Win98. The thought still haunts me, even today... I've have, continuously, seen the "benefits" though, of running Kanotix, and from coming from Knoppix.

I, also, think, many of us, are doing the same thing... We "toot our horn" in front of those who, when a virus attacks, or they have to download a security patch, or, they have the whole system crash, we all stand behind them, and say things like: "hmmm, Microsoft... I remember those days... shame 'my' OS doesnt have those kinds of problems anymore." stuff. The "fight" is not in advertising, or marketing, but, being fought on the "personal" level, one-on-one; Friends, family, neighbors, etc...

Anything MS can do, Linux can do better? Not really accurate, but close... Linux is devided, each trying to gain its "place in the Sun". All the Linux Distro's are different, in some, little way, whereas, Windows, in a "general way", is consistant. Windows has spent a lot of time, resources, and money on getting hardware and software for its OS's, whereas, Linux, is trying to use what "Windows" has, for its own usage, a slow process. Windows and Linux have, and get, viri, its just that the "general" amount of people using Linux is smaller than Windows, and, if you want to create a virus that attacks, and kills a system, you arent going to pick on a OS that has a small lions share, you will probably pick on the OS that almost everyone in the World, runs. ( you have more chances of doing damage that way. ) Linux OS's have viri, they just arent as "prolific" as Windows. Linux systems are not "effected" by Windows viri attacks, but, they can "still" spread them. A Windows virus can not damage a Linux system, but, it can be a "carrier" of that virus, to a system that "is" running Windows.

Linux is not, I repeat, not, the pot-o-gold at the end of the rainbow, it is just another OS. When its popularity increases, you will probably see more viri "made" for it, but, with all the "newbie" problems Linux is in struggle with, I dont think that time is any time soon. As for the comparison of the "Blue Screen of Death" that Windows has made famous, Linux is not impervious to this same "thing", it has kernel panic's, kernel patching, apt boo-boo's, Debian Release "splits", and, the last big one, the KDE new release fiasco. I have come to believe that Linux and Windows are about the same comparison, as, an Apple is to an Orange, not much in common. An apple and an orange are; somewhat, round, edable, have an outer covering, one can be eaten, the other, not that pleasant, and, they both come from trees. They dont taste the same, look the same, etc... Same goes for Windows and Linux... They may "look" the same, but, thats about it... They both "run" your computer system, but, each does it differently.

I did my best learning, soul-searching, and, as Jesus was "tempted" by the Devil, I feel I was also "tempted" to go back to Windows, many times, while I was "trying" to learn what, when, and how, to do things in Linux. I had said, many times, "I am going to give up!", and had, many times, pulled out the Win98 install CD, but continued to "pound" on Linux, and not give in to temptation. I think many, as a generalized statement, have had this "time" of temptation. Some have "turned tail", and others have pushed harder, or further, to gain with Linux.

I think the most endearing benefits of Linux are that it is "home grown", and provides the way to "grow your own", if you want to. You can make your own Linux, with Linux. You have a lot more "resources" at your disposal, with Linux, case in point, with Kanotix, you can get "direct" feedback from its creator, Kano, both in its forums, and in the irc channel. You have tons of "freeware", not shareware, or buy-ware, but, freeware, at your feet. And, lastly, Linux is becoming more noticable in the main stream computer world; many hardware manufacturers are providing "linux compatable" products, and post such on the packaging. Windows doesnt provide the ability to create your own "personal" Windows, its resources of getting answers are limited, and, most of the "software" you can get for Windows is either "bait-ware", "shareware", or "buy-ware", not much is just "given" away anymore.

Linux, in a very, small way, is like Apple and Microsoft, used to be... Grown from the Garage, that they all started from. A few of the Linux Distro's have moved up, like "A" & "M" have, but, many more have stayed back, in that garage where they were born. They still have that "cutting edge", that, "close to technology", feeling, and finally, that, "personal touch". Windows is mass-produced, for a "majority" of people, everyone either has to live with what "they" think you want, or go somewhere else. Linux, on the other hand, has a multituide of Distro's, which, any one can find is "just what they want". Windows provides a "cookie cutter" OS, made to what "they" think you want, and, Linux, not only has the "cookie cutter", but, also provides you with a large array of different "cutter forms", but; the ability to make your own personal "cutter", so you can make your own forms.

If you want to "go with the penguin", keep your resources at hand, and dont give in to temptation... You may find yourself hanging on a cross, but, even "that" person rose to a higher place

Ms. Cuddles

[Harry Kuhman]

1 ) I was about to give up on Linux again after installing Knoppix 4.0.2...

Given that Knoppix is not intended to be installed, and is well known to cause problems that require a good degree of expertise if you do decide to "install" it, this is not surprising. It's certainly one of the reasons that I feel installing Knoppix should be discouraged and not encouraged and installing a distro intended for hard disk such as Debian should be encouraged instead. The Linux community does not need the bad word of mouth created by thousands of noobs who say "oh, I tried instaling Linux and it was a disaster" when the real problem is that they used software known to cause problems if installed on a hard disk.

[Cuddles]

Excellent point Harry Kuhman,

Even the "creator" of Knoppix, has stated, even in the Wiki, that Knoppix is not intended to be installed... It is a LiveCD Distro -only-

The person has been quoted to saying, that, even the "hdd installer" was only added due to pressure, and that "they" would never had done it alone. (some of this is "jest", not "pure" quote)

I had done the HDD Install with Knoppix v3.4, and all it took was one Dist-Upgrade, or a "blanket" "upgrade", and my system was "pretty much trashed", to the point of re-install.

If you want headaches, and you ARE a newbie, the biggest thing you could do is install Knoppix. A good "installable" --off-shoot-- of Knoppix is Kanotix, or, Debian Sid. A noobie has enough to worry bout, than to worry bout doing an apt-get dist-upgrade or a apt-get upgrade, already. Not unless your big thing is re-installing, or posting for "how do I un-muck up my install?"

Just my thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles

[PlatinumPlus]

The Linux community does not need the bad word of mouth created by thousands of noobs who say "oh, I tried instaling Linux and it was a disaster" when the real problem is that they used software known to cause problems if installed on a hard disk.

I agree. The reason why I installed Knoppix was that I needed to experiment with MySQL under Linux and I had heard that Knoppix had about the best hardware detection (which was good for my fairly old IBM machines). On the contrary, installing it on HD has been a hit because even my 4yr old son can boot, logon, play his favorite games Enigma 'n' Frozen Bubbles and shutdown without any hassles of searching for and booting from the CD.

If you want headaches, and you ARE a newbie, the biggest thing you could do is install Knoppix. A good "installable" --off-shoot-- of Knoppix is Kanotix

I have installed Kanotix. Fortunately or not both machines are not on the internet and I have not had to do any upgrades. Apart from that, they both behave the same except that Kanotix seems to have less stuff and sits well on my 3GB HD

Save for my PII's network card, I've not faced a major hurdle (maybe because I don't do much except play around with MySql) I have even proposed that the guys at my Church move over to Knoppix (since they will be using OpenOffice, email and internet). I will be installing on newer machines so I do not forsee the network thingy being an issue BUT if things go haywire . . .

. . . only Harry will know

[newboydrake]

I am very new to Linux as are many other people. Although I don't agree with all the sh**'s and f**ks that knoppixtryer puts in to his post, I must admit that I too have found installing any software very frustrating. It has taken me all night trying to get clamav and klamav configured and have even had to re-install knoppix. Dont ask me how I managed to muck it up I'm a newbie.
I realise that the tech heads amongst you must get peeved with us 'computer illiterate' people but to be classed as either stupid or idiots is a bit harsh Cuddles. Some people like myself are just asking for some advice and appreciate all your time and efforts to help.
My friend has a first class degree in Bio-chemical engineering which he passed with honours. he hasnt got a clue about how to install software on Linux or probably Windows come to that. But I'd hardly call him stupid he's got more brainpower than anybody that i know!

In closing would one of you lovely people tell me where to get the best info on how to install software and configure it for knoppix? I would be eternally grateful to you

[Harry Kuhman]

I am very new to Linux ....

In closing would one of you lovely people tell me where to get the best info on how to install software and configure it for knoppix? I would be eternally grateful to you

The short and simple answer is that Knoppix is a Live CD. It comes with the software that it includes pre-installed. That part is beautiful and simple; you don't have to install any software. You don't even have to insatall Knoppix. If you want more software, well, there's the Knoppix Live DVD. Lots more software there. Still no need to install any.

If you want something not on the CD or DVD, and there is plenty more out there for Linux, much of it available cleanly in the Debian package system, then you would be wise not to try installing it with Knoppix. Knoppix is a Live disc, remember? You can't add to that disc, at least not easily. If, as you say, you are very new to Linux then you likely don't want to fight with the problems that come up when you try to "install" Knoppix to a hard disk. Installing Knoppix is not advised for the Linux beginner. But there is no need to. Knoppix is based on Debian and you can download a Debian install CD and install it instead. This install has become clean and simple in recent years. Then installing more software is a simple matter of using the apt system, rather than the complex set of problems of things breaking that is typical in Knoppix "installs".