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Thread: ManPages in Knoppix 4.0

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsnomore
    Harry .. I am new to Knoppix, your point is well taken regarding such issues.

    However, I am yet to come across ANY linux distro that doesn't have warts .. all need fair amount of work to get them to do what you "expect" .. so you fix it all and then the next release comes, and you are back at it again.

    I will double check and post, but as I said before, this problem most likely is in both live-cd and hd-install.
    This is purely a personal opinion & does not reflect the official opinion of Knoppix.net nor does it reflect the opinion of the Knoppix developers. The great majority of this post was not actually written in response to you but in response to tens of other people who intend to install to the HD. I include it all here because it is all pertinent.

    Do you realize that Knoppix 4.0 is a brand new release that perhaps 99.99% of all the people here (including myself & all the moderators) are not able to test it prior to its release? I even asked Klaus Knopper himself, but it was too late, the DVD ISO had been finalized & shipped to the DVD duplication service. We know that every release brings new changes, features & bugs. That is to be expected. However, a HD install and all the problems that it brings is both NOT NORMAL Knoppix & NOT truly Debian.

    My recommendation is based on the multitude of problems I see in the forums. I believe beginning Linux users or newbies should not install Knoppix to the hard drive. I also must mention that yes Knoppix is based off of Debian, but Debian developers, mentors & helpers do not consider a Knoppix hard drive install to be truly Debian. Thus, they will not attempt to support a Knoppix installed HD system.

    A car is not designed for a good night of sleep. You can sleep in a car but unless you are dead tired, it is something that probably should not be done. Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done. Or in other words, a hammer is a good hammer but make a poor knife.

    There are email mailing lists, howto guides, & forums where people are telling others that a Knoppix HD install is OK for newbies. I feel that they may not be fully informed and may cause more problems that they fix. A Knoppix install on a HD is very difficult to administrate, add/remove software & get new drivers. Some may feel that they can deal with the oddities & the quirks, but if it were all easy, then why are there so many people with problems after a HD install. A Knoppix HD install will most likely break something, usually networking. A perfect real example of such is this topic within the past week: http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19522 "Help please - how do I install a ethernet card driver???" Read that quickly & you will realize that we had to support this user with way more technical geeky commands than you would normally find in a HD install of a normal distro.

    A couple reasons why you should believe me over someone else on some other forum or mailing list. I realize that you don't know me from any other guy so I will explain my opinions further. I try to be humble & not mention it, but I am a Linux & Unix systems administrator employed at one of the top 4 software companies in the world (hint: not microsoft). I have used Unix since 1995 & Linux since 1996 when I first used RedHat and ended up destroying my Win95 partition. I know Knoppix. No, I really know knoppix. I wrote a HOWTO on making your custom own Knoppix CD: "HOWTO: Remaster the easy way using menu based scripts. I reviewed "Knoppix Hacks" for NewsForge.com. I gave a talk on knoppix customizing & remastering at my local Linux User Group, LILUG. You can find my OpenOffice slide, a PDF, and even a ISO download of the custom knoppix CD 3.8.1 that I made.

    So who cares about my opinion on whether or not Knoppix should be installed to the HD. What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport. See also these Debian mailing list posts about knoppix.
    2004
    http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/.../msg01452.html
    http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/.../msg01494.html

    2005
    http://lists.debian.org/debian-mento.../msg00203.html
    http://lists.debian.org/debian-mento.../msg00208.html

    It is my opinion, that if new user want a boot from CD drive then they should use a Debian based live CD like Knoppix. If they want to install Knoppix to the HD (which is really a modified Debian) then skip Knoppix & install Debian 3.1 (released Mon June 6). If they want a pre-configured user-oriented desktop PC, not server, distro based on Debian then use Ubuntu (GNOME desktop) or Kubuntu (KDE desktop) or see RedHat backed Fedora Core 4 (released June 13). If they want a real noob friendly desktop Debian based distro & are willing to pay a small yearly price for support & software updates then they can use Linspire.

    Debian 3.1r0a is a total of 14 CDs or 2 DVDs. The 14 CD set is every package in the Debian stable respository, about 9000 packages. Which is way more that you or I will ever need. CD #1 has the most common packages on it. From CD 1 you can install a basic desktop (both KDE & GNOME) or setup a basic server. For those folks constrained by a slow internet connection, then I would recommend either only 1 or just CDs 1 & 2. I have read Debian developers ranked the most popular/frequently installed packages & then build each CD from that lists. This means that the average user will find it very unlikely to ever need a package from CDs 5-14.

    The following is a couple days old but is still appropriate. It is my install log of Debian 3.1r0a.
    Executive Summary: If you need a desktop system install CD & will not be doing sysadmin setups of servers or less popular programs then CD#1 is all you will need. Total time 36 minutes to install both KDE & GNOME as desktop Debian system. You can follow along by using this gallery from OSDir.com http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/sl...se=361&slide=1

    I started at 1:30pm Eastern & a test PC (Pent III 833MHz, 384 MB RAM, 32x CDROM, 20 GB HD, hda1 is windows NTFS, hda2 is a ext3, hda3 is swap) with CD 1 of Debian 3.1r0a, 650MB (Debian sarge). I used the boot prompt cheat code linux26 to force it to install the 2.6 kernel. Both 2.4 & 2.6 are included but the 2.4 kernel is used by default.

    The hard drive partitioner is not as easy as qtparted or as easy as Suse/Redhat/Mandrake. In the menu I selected the manual partition entry. The I selected hda2. I told it to use it (by default it will not use existing data partitions so that the existing partitions are safe from accidental erasure). I told it to use ext3fs and use it as the root partition. By default it found the hda3 swap partition & automatically set it to be formatted as swap. Once I was sure, I confirmed by partition choices & it formatted the partitions & began installing the base packages. After it finishes the base packages, it will ask to install grub to either the MBR or the first sector of the root partition. It applys grub to the system & then ejects the CD & reboots the system.

    Now it boots of the installed base system & brings up a welcome screen. At this point I put CD 1 back in the drive. I confirm my choices for clock, timezone, root passwd, add a new user with passwd. Then it will scan the CD for the package lists as it is building a new dpkg lists for the system. It will ask if I have another CD. I respond No. Next it automatically uses apt-get to connect to the Debian security updates at security.debian.org. Then it will quickly load a package from CD & bring up another menu. This one allows me to select what package categories to install. Choices are Deskto enviornment, Web server, Print server, DNS server, File server, Mail server, SQL database, manual package selection.

    I choose only the Desktop environment. It tells me it has found 329MB of packages from the archives (the CD) & will after unpacking will use 936MB. The next screens are to select the video hardware & configure the X server. In some cases the HW autodetection routines will automatically pickup all the details. On other systems with different HW, it will not, and you will have to choose the right X drivers etc. After this it will do the standard dpkg "selecting foobar" "Unpacking foobar".
    Right now it is 1:56pm and the dpkg system is still setting up the packages. At 2:01pm it brings up a menu for choosing the style of email delivery. This menu is way too confusing for newbies. It defauts to local delivery; not on a network & that is what I choose. It now prompts for the username or the person to receive the root & postmater mail. I choose real-root. Then it tells me that everything is done & thanks for choosing Debian. I hit OK & it brings up gdm & then displays a GNOME login screen. I login as the user I created: james. It loads up a Debian styled GNOME 2.8 desktop. I go to actions, logout, hit OK to confirm. Back at the login screen. This time I go to the Session menu & choose KDE. I login as james & it asks me if I want to make KDE the default dekstop. I click "Make Default". It loads up the KDE personalizer. USA & English are already selected as county & language. All the choices are really subjective so I choose what makes me happy. It then loads up KDE 3.3.2.
    Time is 2:06pm.
    Total time 36 minutes to install both KDE & GNOME as desktop Debian system.

  2. #12
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    I just tested the man command while booting from the DVD. I am using Knoppix 4.0 under VMWare Workstation 4.5 since I do not have a DVD burner to make a real DVD.


    'man ls' & 'man vi' works when booting from the DVD.
    'man ls' & 'man vi' fails after Knoppix 4.0 boots from a HD install.
    I removed manpages-de, manpages-dev & manpages. I then reinstalled manpages and it still fails.

    This only confirms my belief that in most cases a HD install will break something.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderScore
    This only confirms my belief that in most cases a HD install will break something.
    Thanks for the confirmation James. I thought it was a HD instll problem too, as unlikely as that seems, since that seemed to be the point winsnomore was making in his first post. After he protested I wasn't as sure (am waiting for the officail release of 4.0 myself, I'm not in any rush). Now that we have comfirmation that this is a hard disk install issue, this thread clearly belongs in the hdd install forum (almost hate to do that with your eloquent and detailed post above though, it's clear that most people who install Knoppix to hard disk never even bother to look at the hdd install forum.) I'll leave it here for the evening for the sake of anyone who has been following it, will move it tomorrow if some other moderator doesn't beat me to it.

  4. #14
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    With all respect to UnderScore, his knowledge, and the time he takes to contribute to this board, and speaking as a home user who just likes to dink around with Knoppix for hours on end, I would like to disagree with him. (Yes, I do care about his opinion.)

    I would not discourage anyone, newbie or not, from installing Knoppix to hard drive. (Although I might encourage them to install Kanotix instead.) You just need to know what you might be in for and go in with your eyes open. The more "plain vanilla" your hardware, the fewer problems you'll have.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderScore
    Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done.
    In May of last year, I attempted to install "pure" Debian. I didn't know a lot about how to do it, and, as you can read, it didn't turn out well. However, installing Knoppix worked just fine. After my unsuccessful attempt to install Debian, I simply reinstalled Knoppix.

    Here, then, are some pluses to installing Knoppix:
    • Even without learning the mysteries of editing the installer's configuration file (".knofig") by hand, the installer is straightforward
    • Hardware configuration is largely done for you. You will probably have to run the "Network card configuration" script to enable networking, and may have to manually clean up /etc/fstab, but that's about it.
    • Full-featured distro, with most of the essential packages you'd want, pre-installed, that takes up less than 5GB (if you install from the CD)
    • A group of people willing and able to answer questions, in this very forum
    • It's an interesting, fun, and educational experience


    Since last May, I've installed Debian and upgraded to Sid a couple of times. Earlier this week I downloaded the new Sarge. It was quite easy to install, the only "gotchas" being that it stopped recognizing the DVD just prior to installing the base system, and I had to back up a couple of steps; and I had to "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" after installation in order to get my desired screen resolution. After that, it was just a matter of intalling a few things (most importantly, kdm) and grabbing "sources.list" off my Kanotix partition, commenting out the Kanotix-related entries, and doing a dist-upgrade. Pretty easy.

    But...the Knoppix installer is still arguably easier for newbies to understand and use than the Debian (or Ubuntu) installer (if you're not planning on using more than a swap and a root partition, anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderScore
    What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport.
    And how well do they treat newbies asking questions about "pure" Debian? I'd ask a Debian question here in the Lounge before I went to #debian to get my nose chopped off.

    If man pages don't work after a hard disk install of Knoppix 4.0, that doesn't mean it's unwise to install it. It simply means that the Knoppix authors have a bug to fix before they release the next version.

  5. #15
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    To winsnomore, please understand that I want you to have a easy no-frustration HD install. Past releases have proven that something always breakson a HD install. Now in this release, we have seen that a minor problem exists. Since we aren't the developers or beta testers, we have very little if any pre-warning of possible breaks in the HD install.

    Quote Originally Posted by eco2geek
    With all respect to UnderScore, his knowledge, and the time he takes to contribute to this board, and speaking as a home user who just likes to dink around with Knoppix for hours on end, I would like to disagree with him. (Yes, I do care about his opinion.)
    A disagreement? COOL! i think we disagree less & really agree more. We just have different mindsets.

    Quote Originally Posted by eco2geek
    I would not discourage anyone, newbie or not, from installing Knoppix to hard drive. (Although I might encourage them to install Kanotix instead.) You just need to know what you might be in for and go in with your eyes open. The more "plain vanilla" your hardware, the fewer problems you'll have.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderScore
    Knoppix is not designed to be installed to the hard drive. It is designed to be a bootable CD. Sure it CAN be installed to the HD but it unless you are very experienced, it is something that should not be done.
    In May of last year, I attempted to install "pure" Debian. I didn't know a lot about how to do it, and, as you can read, it didn't turn out well. However, installing Knoppix worked just fine. After my unsuccessful attempt to install Debian, I simply reinstalled Knoppix.

    Here, then, are some pluses to installing Knoppix:
    • Even without learning the mysteries of editing the installer's configuration file (".knofig") by hand, the installer is straightforward
    • Hardware configuration is largely done for you. You will probably have to run the "Network card configuration" script to enable networking, and may have to manually clean up /etc/fstab, but that's about it.
    • Full-featured distro, with most of the essential packages you'd want, pre-installed, that takes up less than 5GB (if you install from the CD)
    • A group of people willing and able to answer questions, in this very forum
    • It's an interesting, fun, and educational experience


    Since last May, I've installed Debian and upgraded to Sid a couple of times. Earlier this week I downloaded the new Sarge. It was quite easy to install, the only "gotchas" being that it stopped recognizing the DVD just prior to installing the base system, and I had to back up a couple of steps; and I had to "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" after installation in order to get my desired screen resolution. After that, it was just a matter of intalling a few things (most importantly, kdm) and grabbing "sources.list" off my Kanotix partition, commenting out the Kanotix-related entries, and doing a dist-upgrade. Pretty easy.

    But...the Knoppix installer is still arguably easier for newbies to understand and use than the Debian (or Ubuntu) installer (if you're not planning on using more than a swap and a root partition, anyway).
    I get it. For me, its a recommendation. I give a long wordy & somewhat scary recommendation but it is only a recommendation.

    Having worked as front-line telephone support (about 3500 calls a year), in a university gym as a trainer & monitor, in a Chinese restruant as a To-Go paper-bag packer, as a busboy in an upscale Italian restruant, and retail in Wal-Mart electronics, I feel that I have benefitted from years of being around normal everyday people. This is a generalization based on some truth: many everyday people or new Knoppix users are not us & they do not want to be us. It iss not that they don't have the capacity to read a guide & tinker with a PC. I'm sure they do & I would be lying if I said that new users are dumb & annoying. New users are AWESOME & they are the lifeblood of the next generation of Linux users.

    The everyday person or new Knoppix user, when bound up in a some kind of technical problem does not care about the technical details since they ultimatly want one thing: They want it (whatever it is) to work. I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt & I will solve their problem to the best of my ability. I will also try to educate them & if I have some advanced foreknowledge of the twists & turns that life might bring them, then I will let them know. In regards to newbie users, if I can lead past the hidden landmines of a HD install by suggesting that they don't do it, then I will but I will also suggest an alternative. If any new user is outside of that sterotype & is willing to give their technical skills a challenge, then a Knoppix HD install might be exactly what they were looking for. If they are further inclinded to learn more I can recommend that they try Gentoo or Linux From Scratch as they are the absolute best ways to figure out how & why Linux works.

    I see new users as a huge surplus resource & I see gentle experienced users as a scarce resource. There is not enough of us knowledgable people who care about new users as compared to the sheer number of incoming new users. The demand is greater than the supply. Practically all articles, HOWTOs, emails, chats, guides, reviews of Knoppix are directed at non-guru new users & suggest that installing Knoppix to the HD is OK. They gloss over the negatives & never mention the problems that people are going to have.

    This might fly in the face of some people & yes it is a generalization: New users typically embrace Linux/Knoppix in hopes of accomplishing a task such as surf, check email, edit a JPG, listen to music. They don't care so much about software freedom. They don't care so much of the technical details as to why Knoppix/Linux is so good. They want to do something & they want it now. Me, on the other hand, I LOVE to experiment & I probably have installed/reinstalled a Linux distro about 10 times a week for the last 3 years. No matter how much I hope the following statement is not true, I believe that most users do not ever want to be like me. This is where distros like Linspire & Xandros (and in many ways Ubuntu) come in because they are designed & cater to the both non-techical new user & the non-techical long-term user. Those pluses of Knoppix that you mentioned are really good. I feel that same way you feel about Knoppix installs for _myself_. But I fear (watch out, yet another generalization) most users don't want a forced educational experience via editing the fstab to fix the cdrom mounts or editing the /etc/modules-2.6.11 file to force loading of the NIC driver module.

    So these new users are looking to accomplish something easy & are lead to believe that a HD install is easy. The truth: IT IS EASY. Too easy because when something goes wrong, new posts appear in the forums & it is up to us volunteers to fix their problems & not the folks that suggested to them to install Knoppix. Purely my opinion, but I see the all outside articles, HOWTOs, emails, chats, guides, reviews that suggest newbies do a Knoppix install are passing the buck. They are passing the support buck and the buck is passed to Knoppix.net. It is up to us, even if we disagree, to either accept what they pass to us or not not accept it. So in my view, the buck stops here.

    Quote Originally Posted by eco2geek
    Quote Originally Posted by UnderScore
    What do Debian developers & users say in regards to the HD install of Knoppix? Debian users/devs on #debian on IRC freenode.net deny support to Knoppix users & tell them to go to Knoppix.net for suppport.
    And how well do they treat newbies asking questions about "pure" Debian? I'd ask a Debian question here in the Lounge before I went to #debian to get my nose chopped off.

    If man pages don't work after a hard disk install of Knoppix 4.0, that doesn't mean it's unwise to install it. It simply means that the Knoppix authors have a bug to fix before they release the next version.
    Until we nail down the the fact that a Knoppix 4.0 HD install does not break anything major, I will continue to warn people about the problems of the HD install & will recommend to not install it. V4.0 is too new for me to recommend installation & perhaps after other people chime in with their results I can give it my approval.

    Thank you eco2geek, as this dialog has compelled me to do more. Perhaps my recommendation is scary or harsh. I will attempt to be more friendly & less scary. I will also write up a HOWTO install Debian 3.1 as an alternative to installing Knoppix. I will probably have a rough draft ready by Sunday evening.

    As of right now, I have no idea how to fix broken manpages. Anyone else got some tips for what I can do?

  6. #16
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    Hey guys ..let's not go too far into the far side.

    I was off entertaining a few visitors .. I am back and am happy again.

    I was just asking a simple question, I get it: don't bitch about HD install issues, I wasn't .. and I won't .. of all the linux distro's I have tried, this one I don't passiionately dislike .. ok .. it has problems .. I fixed them ..now I have manpages .. and I fixed the stupid coloring of vi .. so there.

    Yes manpages work from live-DVD .. but they didn't from HD .. so I copied the darn thing and will move on.

    Underscore you sound a lot like a sysadmin I used to know (but on the other side of hudson in a "rining" phone company research office)

    But this has gone on for too long, I am sorry for that ..

    I don't think this issue should be relegated to the HD section, we have had so much fun ... but that' me.
    and I surely don't agree with the idea that this is a live cd and should not be installed .problems can be fixed though there are some distro's that are evil and I won't want to fix their "horried" "warts" )

    BTW I did think plain Debian once again .. but Knoppix has everything that I really like so why bother.


    cheers.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsnomore
    Hey guys ..let's not go too far into the far side.

    I was off entertaining a few visitors .. I am back and am happy again.
    Heh, sometime I geek out too much. I guess these postings is good evidence of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by winsnomore
    I was just asking a simple question, I get it: don't bitch about HD install issues, I wasn't .. and I won't .. of all the linux distro's I have tried, this one I don't passiionately dislike .. ok .. it has problems .. I fixed them ..now I have manpages .. and I fixed the stupid coloring of vi .. so there.

    Yes manpages work from live-DVD .. but they didn't from HD .. so I copied the darn thing and will move on.

    Underscore you sound a lot like a sysadmin I used to know (but on the other side of hudson in a "rining" phone company research office)

    But this has gone on for too long, I am sorry for that ..
    Don't be sorry about it. As long as you are happy with how everything turned out then I am happy too. As for vi, do you like the coloring or is it that you don't like the coloring. As for myself, most of the time I don't need it but other times it is a true joy to have synatx coloring.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsnomore
    I don't think this issue should be relegated to the HD section, we have had so much fun ... but that' me.
    and I surely don't agree with the idea that this is a live cd and should not be installed .problems can be fixed though there are some distro's that are evil and I won't want to fix their "horried" "warts" )
    If you are so inclined & if you have the time please post in The Lounge a rant or two about the distros you don't like. I want to know what other people's experiences are so I can learn from them.
    Thanks,
    James

  8. #18
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    Underscore .. thanks for the kind comments.
    I really think the guys doing the kde konsole schema and the colors for directory & vi much either be color blind or far too young to have any real usable neurons. or evil emacers )

    I can't see who came up with most of the default choices .. no one can see it .. so I this is the first thing I have to do to every distro .. I have my colors for shell but vi .. that's really coooky

    anyways I will post some rants soon enough.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsnomore
    Harry .. I am new to Knoppix, your point is well taken regarding such issues.

    However, I am yet to come across ANY linux distro that doesn't have warts .. all need fair amount of work to get them to do what you "expect" .. so you fix it all and then the next release comes, and you are back at it again.

    I will double check and post, but as I said before, this problem most likely is in both live-cd and hd-install.
    Mepis has very few warts.I installed knoppix on my hard drive and there was very few problems the main one was that when I installed I chose to do the exact cd and not the debian (I installed the beginner way and my sound card wasnot detected...right away I reinstalled using the non debian install)When the install was done everything worked fine,except I couldn`t access root the normal way(I had no idea what the password was)when I installed ,copying the cd exactly,it loaded with no user sign in stuff.I had no way to get a root password in.To access root all I had to do was open a root shell under the penguin and away I went.the other problem was that i could not download some programs that I needed to watch incrypted dvd`s.not from apt-get or from kpackage and not from synaptic package manager(I got it from apt-get)I tried for a few hours to get the dvd player going but no way with out libdvdcss2.Anyone know how to get libdvdcss2,libdvdread3,libdvdplay0,dvdrip,dvdbacku p on your box via Kpackage or Synaptic package manager?If I knew how to do that I would put it back on my hard drive and test it out some more(I re-installed mepis 3.3 as I like to watch dvd`s if I feel like it)...HELP??

  10. #20
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    use xine to play dvd's. that works like a charm .. the ui could be better, but heck it s usable.

    I am told mplayer plays everything but it's never available with any debian distro by default.

    regarding mepis having few warts .. I agree, but there are issues with it .. and those have to do with debian .. the javavm one major hassle.
    Other reason I moved to knoppix 4.0 is that they DID pick most of the new software .. kde 3.4 for one, and open office 2.0 beta.
    I hate to constantly having to download install newer stuff after loading a new distro .. so knoppix is excellent .. has tons more software than mepis or fc or suse .. etc.

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HGST Ultrastar DC HC520 12TB SATA 6Gb 256MB 3.5" Enterprise HDD- HUH721212ALE601

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Seagate ST12000NM0127 12TB 256MB 7200RPM 3.5

Seagate ST12000NM0127 12TB 256MB 7200RPM 3.5" SATA 6.0Gb/s Enterprise Hard Drive

$93.88



Seagate ST12000NM0127 12TB SATA 6Gb/s 256MB 7200RPM 3.5

Seagate ST12000NM0127 12TB SATA 6Gb/s 256MB 7200RPM 3.5" Enterprise Hard Drive

$99.99



SEAGATE ST4000NM0023 HARD DRIVE 3.5

SEAGATE ST4000NM0023 HARD DRIVE 3.5" SAS 4TB HDD

$16.99



Western Digital WD10JUCT 1TB 2.5

Western Digital WD10JUCT 1TB 2.5" SATA 3Gb/s 5400 RPM 16MB Laptop Hard Drive

$17.98



1TB HDD/SSD 2.5

1TB HDD/SSD 2.5" SATA Hard Drive for Laptop with Win 10/Win 11 Pro Pre-installed

$43.27