Knoppix not free enough?

[eadz]

Interesting discussion on the kde-promo list featuring all stars RMS and Ralf Nolden among others.

http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-pr...q2/thread.html ( the thread is called Knoppix - KDE.. )

actually it's quite a hot thread.

[aay]

I would be interested in seeing who else agrees with this statement from one of RMS' s posts on this subject.

"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."

[aay]

One more thing. From this post it looks like the KDE folks have built their own version of Knoppix that removes software with offending licenses. Will this KDE centric version of Knoppix take the place of what eadz has done with KnoppixKDE?

[Stephen]

I would be interested in seeing who else agrees with this statement from one of RMS' s posts on this subject.

"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."

Even better:
"Many programs give people the ability to copy non-free programs and
install them. They can do it with Samba, they can do it with scp,
they can do it with cp. It's a shame if they do, but if we are not
involved, then it's not our shame."

I wonder what he thinks about mounting a windows partition?

Here's the packages that would not be installable if you went with RMS guidelines.

[12:46 AM Mon May 12: root @ /home/stephen]
># apt-cache dump | grep -B 2 'File:.*non-free' | grep '^Package'
Package: picon-unknown
Package: pdp11-unix-v5
Package: pdp11-unix-v6
Package: pdp11-unix-v7
Package: snes9x-opengl
Package: picon-misc
Package: j2sdk1.4-demo
Package: amiwm
Package: gifsicle
Package: tcltutor
Package: xshodo
Package: parmetis-dev
Package: libsmapi2-dev
Package: navigator-smotif-477
Package: mpg123-oss-3dnow
Package: parmetis-doc
Package: amoeba-data
Package: jdk1.1-dev
Package: picon-news
Package: pgp5i
Package: jdk1.1-doc
Package: ptex-jtex
Package: unicorn
Package: mmix-src
Package: ckermit
Package: weather
Package: xpdf-korean
Package: inform
Package: s3270
Package: tads2-dev
Package: libsrgpg1
Package: 3270-common
Package: communicator-smotif-477
Package: j2sdk1.3
Package: j2sdk1.4
Package: xtoolplaces
Package: giflib3g-dev
Package: unrar
Package: xinvaders
Package: lgrind
Package: tracker
Package: php4-dbase
Package: rsynth
Package: hevea-doc
Package: ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10
Package: xpdf-japanese
Package: angband
Package: ncompress
Package: libforms0.88-bin
Package: distributed-net-pproxy
Package: gbdk-examples
Package: freefont
Package: ebook-dev-kde20
Package: ucbmpeg
Package: libforms0.88-dev
Package: picon-usenix
Package: communicator-spellchk-477
Package: povray-doc
Package: libapache-mod-fastcgi
Package: pine-tracker
Package: xanim
Package: libmotif
Package: gumshoe
Package: eemu-server
Package: gimp1.2-nonfree
Package: grokking-the-gimp
Package: xfonts-scalable-nonfree
Package: netscape-base-477
Package: mpg123-oss-i486
Package: w3-recs-2002
Package: w3-recs-2003
Package: navigator-nethelp-477
Package: mush
Package: libsrgpg1-dev
Package: xslideshow
Package: libforms0.88
Package: libforms0.89
Package: jdk1.1-demo
Package: mysql-doc
Package: motif-doc
Package: libgpcl0
Package: libgpcl-dev
Package: jdk1.1-src
Package: cmap-adobe-gb1
Package: xephem
Package: libsmapi2
Package: enamdict
Package: xgobi-doc
Package: sgb-doc
Package: calctool
Package: xsnow
Package: mrouted
Package: onlisp-ps
Package: font3d
Package: upx-nrv
Package: clustalw
Package: clustalx
Package: ucspi-tcp-src
Package: foiltex
Package: snes9x-common
Package: c3270
Package: gap4-doc-dvi
Package: wap-wml-tools
Package: xfonts-naga10
Package: sattrack
Package: nntpcache-dev-doc
Package: snes9x-x
Package: rancid-cgi
Package: whirlgif
Package: bass
Package: newsgate
Package: jdk1.1-native-dev
Package: maelstrom
Package: netscape-smotif-477
Package: tcl3270
Package: xtrkcad
Package: xmame-gl
Package: rancid-installer
Package: xmame-fx
Package: csound-doc
Package: jpeg2ps
Package: cxhextris
Package: http-analyze
Package: povray-misc
Package: xfractint
Package: tads-dev
Package: pips820-3300
Package: tads3-dev
Package: giflib-bin
Package: x3270-htmldoc
Package: nttcp
Package: pine-docs
Package: netperf
Package: tads3-doc
Package: gsfonts-other
Package: gap4-doc-ps
Package: dot-forward-src
Package: diablo-common
Package: dvi2tty
Package: onlisp-pdf
Package: conserver-client
Package: webmin-telnet
Package: cmap-adobe-cns1
Package: mp3asm
Package: j2sdk1.3-doc
Package: gfont
Package: onlisp-code
Package: figfonts-cjk
Package: unicorn-source
Package: mpg123-esd
Package: libmotif-dbg
Package: cxterm-common
Package: sgb-src
Package: libtsp3
Package: lmbench
Package: fudgit
Package: libmotif-dev
Package: ggobi
Package: ccf
Package: amp
Package: xpostitplus
Package: cthugha
Package: simh-unix-images
Package: j2re1.3
Package: j2re1.4
Package: zangband
Package: communicator-base-477
Package: rsaref2
Package: dgen
Package: cxterm-big5
Package: qmail-src
Package: axe
Package: doc-html-w3
Package: spim
Package: picon-domains
Package: xearth
Package: ssh2
Package: distributed-net
Package: ttf-larabie-deco
Package: abuse-sfx
Package: vrwave
Package: sattrack-x11
Package: dqs
Package: gs-cjk-resource
Package: mpg123-nas
Package: tatctae
Package: arabtex
Package: j2sdk1.3-demo
Package: pips800
Package: xgobi
Package: pips760
Package: sharefont
Package: pips770
Package: libtsp3-dev
Package: btoa
Package: jad
Package: edict-fpw
Package: gimp1.3-nonfree
Package: gliese
Package: trn4
Package: hwb
Package: x3270
Package: gap4-tdat
Package: lha
Package: xmess-x
Package: ttf-xfree86-nonfree
Package: cmap-adobe-korea1
Package: musixtex
Package: gbdk
Package: mcvert
Package: mocka
Package: netscape-ja-resource-477
Package: gap4-doc-html
Package: j2sdk1.3-src
Package: edict
Package: os8
Package: gsn-curses
Package: pcx
Package: shapetools-tutorial
Package: sl-modem-source
Package: snes9x-fx
Package: pgp
Package: epan
Package: rar
Package: sun-resolver
Package: e100-source
Package: cl-infix
Package: communicator-nethelp-477
Package: sgb
Package: diablo
Package: bsdgames-nonfree
Package: xpdf-chinese-simplified
Package: t1-xfree86-nonfree
Package: netscape-java-477
Package: rpl
Package: yale
Package: jdk1.1-native
Package: xtrojka
Package: gettyps
Package: molphy
Package: selfhtml
Package: ttf-larabie-uncommon
Package: tnt
Package: eemu-client
Package: navigator-base-477
Package: trn
Package: dxpc
Package: tth
Package: kanjidic
Package: xacc-smotif
Package: agrep
Package: wip
Package: irpas
Package: j2sdk1.4-doc
Package: ucbmpeg-play
Package: vje-delta
Package: fractxtra
Package: so-far
Package: satan
Package: fastforward-src
Package: ttf-larabie-straight
Package: xmame
Package: picon-weather
Package: xmame-svga
Package: diablo-readerd
Package: povray
Package: abc2mtex
Package: zoo
Package: jre1.1
Package: pr3287
Package: cxterm-gb
Package: moria
Package: xzx
Package: mpg123
Package: giflib3g
Package: cmap-adobe-japan1
Package: cmap-adobe-japan2
Package: xpdf-chinese-traditional
Package: hdlant
Package: cxterm-ks
Package: ldmud
Package: ocaml-doc
Package: rancid-core
Package: simh-rsts-images
Package: gap4-gdat
Package: revtex
Package: treetool
Package: phylip
Package: scilab
Package: iozone3
Package: doom-wad-shareware
Package: dvipdfm-cjk-cmap
Package: ocaml-book-en
Package: gsn-jigsaw
Package: qpage
Package: ocaml-book-fr
Package: libforms-doc
Package: festvox-ellpc11k
Package: serialmail-src
Package: w3-recs
Package: album
Package: tads2
Package: ezmlm-src
Package: tads3
Package: xmame-x
Package: ines
Package: figfonts
Package: bulkmail
Package: ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10
Package: chntpw
Package: opustex
Package: netpbm-nonfree
Package: cucipop
Package: gbdk-dev
Package: snes9x-svga
Package: tadsr
Package: rtlinux
Package: speak-freely
Package: conserver-server
Package: wwwtable
Package: mpi-specs
Package: rutebook
Package: wwwcount
Package: rancid-util
Package: prime-net
Package: j2sdk1.4-src
Package: motif-clients
Package: graphviz
Package: unarj
Package: crafty
Package: libmotif3
Package: cedictb5
Package: portsentry
Package: lmbench-doc
Package: nntpcache
Package: its4
Package: gs-aladdin
Package: pgplot5
Package: jdk1.1
Package: netscape-ko-resource-477
Package: xpacman
Package: picon-users
Package: floater
Package: spectrum-roms
Package: astrolog
Package: cedictgb
Package: inform-docs
Package: musixtex-doc
Package: cl-faq
Package: cxterm-jis
Package: festlex-oald

[eadz]

Stephen are you sure?

I remember far less packages.

apt-get install vrms ( Virtual RMS ) to see what packages would be removed.

And yes, the KDE Knoppix will take the place of Knoppix KDE I imagine.

[Stephen]

Stephen are you sure?

I remember far less packages.

apt-get install vrms ( Virtual RMS ) to see what packages would be removed.

Yes for what is installed on your machine but not what is installable from the non-free packages. The packages above are ones that would not be considered because they are non-free.

[rec9140]

I would be interested in seeing who else agrees with this statement from one of RMS' s posts on this subject.

I guess I don't under stand what the debate is about or the definition of "free" v. "free."

Whats wrong with the Acrobat reader and this long list of packages listed.

This "attitude" problem is anoter HINDERANCE to Linux on the desktop in the home, especially, and at the office.

"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."

Well for the last part I STONGLY DISAGREE. If they don't like Knoppix, dont use it!

[mabhatter]

I tried posting this last night, but the forum has a bug that doesn't let you login from posting a comment--It asks for your password,but tosses your comments! ouch!

back on topic!

If you read thru the posts, you'll see that the KDE people wanted a special version of "Knoppix KDE" to pass out at a show to prospective software writers to use KDE. They were upset to find that Knoppix had free but non-GNU stuff added to it.

The backstory is that RMS spent so much time over the last years beating them into GPL goodness that they wanted a 100% OSS disc. Klaus' vison of Knoppix is to cram as much as he can on it for maximum utility, as long as the disc is freely copyable & redistributable for everyone who gets a disc. The fact that things like drivers, fonts, etc are free to download, but not "Open Source" isn't really an issue.

The KDE people really wanted a "Knoppix" branded disc to show off.. because it's getting a lot of buzz lately [and rightfully so!] That's really the only thing that made a stink here. Whoever was putting it together didn't want to brand it "Knoppix" but strip out all the non-OSS stuff just to appease them. The little bits of drivers are what makes Knoppix "just work" so well versus being straight Debian. They didn't feel it would be in their interest [or ours either] to have a bunch of people with "crippled" discs out there a. blasting the forums to find out what's wrong, & b. giving "Knoppix" a bad name because stuff didn't work like it did for other people. Klaus can't support any forks--even to satisfy the GNU people. His work is GPL'd so they can use it, no hard feelings, but if they want to be that strict about the "free" stuff they'll have to go elsewhere and not call it "knoppix".

My solution to the KDE people would be to use Morphix instead. Morphix gives credit to Knoppix and is a system to build discs rather than support for 1 specific disc. Then they could also create a seperate module with all the "missing" stuff rolled up for people to download seperately. While they were at it, they could have a set of modules made to cover the whole functions of offices, mail/web/DB servers, desktop, firewall...all that could be in seperate Morphix modules to show people how far GNU/Linux has really come.

[Tortoise]

As someone new to this, and fully in favour of open source / free software, it does seem that folks do get a little ideological about it, and that stands in the way of broader acceptance of Linux.
It is a royal pain in the arse to have to download a program and install it just to be able to watch DVDs, or read PDF files. No one new to the OS wants to be dealing with that kind of stuff. I can see why you might want a 'pure' version, but for most people out there there is room in the world for free and non-free software. I for one don't really, on a day to day basis, care whether Acrobat is 'free' or not. I guess if I sat down and thought about it I might, but it irritates me much more that the os I just installed can't read dvds without me having to download a patch and install it.

[beforewisdom]

I try to use to use free software applications in lieu of non-free software applications as much as is possible and palatable to my tastes.

I was a happy Suse user for years and switched to Knoppix primarily to achieve this aim.

Knoppix does a pretty good job of minimizing non-free packages.

I ran "Virtual RMS" (apt-get -t unstable install vrms) and found only 8 items.
All of which I never heard and I can uninstall without missing any of them.

Steve