I would be interested in seeing who else agrees with this statement from one of RMS' s posts on this subject.
"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."
Interesting discussion on the kde-promo list featuring all stars RMS and Ralf Nolden among others.
http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-pr...q2/thread.html ( the thread is called Knoppix - KDE.. )
actually it's quite a hot thread.
I would be interested in seeing who else agrees with this statement from one of RMS' s posts on this subject.
"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."
One more thing. From this post it looks like the KDE folks have built their own version of Knoppix that removes software with offending licenses. Will this KDE centric version of Knoppix take the place of what eadz has done with KnoppixKDE?
Even better:Originally Posted by aay
"Many programs give people the ability to copy non-free programs and
install them. They can do it with Samba, they can do it with scp,
they can do it with cp. It's a shame if they do, but if we are not
involved, then it's not our shame."
I wonder what he thinks about mounting a windows partition?
Here's the packages that would not be installable if you went with RMS guidelines.
Code:[12:46 AM Mon May 12: root @ /home/stephen] ># apt-cache dump | grep -B 2 'File:.*non-free' | grep '^Package' Package: picon-unknown Package: pdp11-unix-v5 Package: pdp11-unix-v6 Package: pdp11-unix-v7 Package: snes9x-opengl Package: picon-misc Package: j2sdk1.4-demo Package: amiwm Package: gifsicle Package: tcltutor Package: xshodo Package: parmetis-dev Package: libsmapi2-dev Package: navigator-smotif-477 Package: mpg123-oss-3dnow Package: parmetis-doc Package: amoeba-data Package: jdk1.1-dev Package: picon-news Package: pgp5i Package: jdk1.1-doc Package: ptex-jtex Package: unicorn Package: mmix-src Package: ckermit Package: weather Package: xpdf-korean Package: inform Package: s3270 Package: tads2-dev Package: libsrgpg1 Package: 3270-common Package: communicator-smotif-477 Package: j2sdk1.3 Package: j2sdk1.4 Package: xtoolplaces Package: giflib3g-dev Package: unrar Package: xinvaders Package: lgrind Package: tracker Package: php4-dbase Package: rsynth Package: hevea-doc Package: ttf-kochi-gothic-naga10 Package: xpdf-japanese Package: angband Package: ncompress Package: libforms0.88-bin Package: distributed-net-pproxy Package: gbdk-examples Package: freefont Package: ebook-dev-kde20 Package: ucbmpeg Package: libforms0.88-dev Package: picon-usenix Package: communicator-spellchk-477 Package: povray-doc Package: libapache-mod-fastcgi Package: pine-tracker Package: xanim Package: libmotif Package: gumshoe Package: eemu-server Package: gimp1.2-nonfree Package: grokking-the-gimp Package: xfonts-scalable-nonfree Package: netscape-base-477 Package: mpg123-oss-i486 Package: w3-recs-2002 Package: w3-recs-2003 Package: navigator-nethelp-477 Package: mush Package: libsrgpg1-dev Package: xslideshow Package: libforms0.88 Package: libforms0.89 Package: jdk1.1-demo Package: mysql-doc Package: motif-doc Package: libgpcl0 Package: libgpcl-dev Package: jdk1.1-src Package: cmap-adobe-gb1 Package: xephem Package: libsmapi2 Package: enamdict Package: xgobi-doc Package: sgb-doc Package: calctool Package: xsnow Package: mrouted Package: onlisp-ps Package: font3d Package: upx-nrv Package: clustalw Package: clustalx Package: ucspi-tcp-src Package: foiltex Package: snes9x-common Package: c3270 Package: gap4-doc-dvi Package: wap-wml-tools Package: xfonts-naga10 Package: sattrack Package: nntpcache-dev-doc Package: snes9x-x Package: rancid-cgi Package: whirlgif Package: bass Package: newsgate Package: jdk1.1-native-dev Package: maelstrom Package: netscape-smotif-477 Package: tcl3270 Package: xtrkcad Package: xmame-gl Package: rancid-installer Package: xmame-fx Package: csound-doc Package: jpeg2ps Package: cxhextris Package: http-analyze Package: povray-misc Package: xfractint Package: tads-dev Package: pips820-3300 Package: tads3-dev Package: giflib-bin Package: x3270-htmldoc Package: nttcp Package: pine-docs Package: netperf Package: tads3-doc Package: gsfonts-other Package: gap4-doc-ps Package: dot-forward-src Package: diablo-common Package: dvi2tty Package: onlisp-pdf Package: conserver-client Package: webmin-telnet Package: cmap-adobe-cns1 Package: mp3asm Package: j2sdk1.3-doc Package: gfont Package: onlisp-code Package: figfonts-cjk Package: unicorn-source Package: mpg123-esd Package: libmotif-dbg Package: cxterm-common Package: sgb-src Package: libtsp3 Package: lmbench Package: fudgit Package: libmotif-dev Package: ggobi Package: ccf Package: amp Package: xpostitplus Package: cthugha Package: simh-unix-images Package: j2re1.3 Package: j2re1.4 Package: zangband Package: communicator-base-477 Package: rsaref2 Package: dgen Package: cxterm-big5 Package: qmail-src Package: axe Package: doc-html-w3 Package: spim Package: picon-domains Package: xearth Package: ssh2 Package: distributed-net Package: ttf-larabie-deco Package: abuse-sfx Package: vrwave Package: sattrack-x11 Package: dqs Package: gs-cjk-resource Package: mpg123-nas Package: tatctae Package: arabtex Package: j2sdk1.3-demo Package: pips800 Package: xgobi Package: pips760 Package: sharefont Package: pips770 Package: libtsp3-dev Package: btoa Package: jad Package: edict-fpw Package: gimp1.3-nonfree Package: gliese Package: trn4 Package: hwb Package: x3270 Package: gap4-tdat Package: lha Package: xmess-x Package: ttf-xfree86-nonfree Package: cmap-adobe-korea1 Package: musixtex Package: gbdk Package: mcvert Package: mocka Package: netscape-ja-resource-477 Package: gap4-doc-html Package: j2sdk1.3-src Package: edict Package: os8 Package: gsn-curses Package: pcx Package: shapetools-tutorial Package: sl-modem-source Package: snes9x-fx Package: pgp Package: epan Package: rar Package: sun-resolver Package: e100-source Package: cl-infix Package: communicator-nethelp-477 Package: sgb Package: diablo Package: bsdgames-nonfree Package: xpdf-chinese-simplified Package: t1-xfree86-nonfree Package: netscape-java-477 Package: rpl Package: yale Package: jdk1.1-native Package: xtrojka Package: gettyps Package: molphy Package: selfhtml Package: ttf-larabie-uncommon Package: tnt Package: eemu-client Package: navigator-base-477 Package: trn Package: dxpc Package: tth Package: kanjidic Package: xacc-smotif Package: agrep Package: wip Package: irpas Package: j2sdk1.4-doc Package: ucbmpeg-play Package: vje-delta Package: fractxtra Package: so-far Package: satan Package: fastforward-src Package: ttf-larabie-straight Package: xmame Package: picon-weather Package: xmame-svga Package: diablo-readerd Package: povray Package: abc2mtex Package: zoo Package: jre1.1 Package: pr3287 Package: cxterm-gb Package: moria Package: xzx Package: mpg123 Package: giflib3g Package: cmap-adobe-japan1 Package: cmap-adobe-japan2 Package: xpdf-chinese-traditional Package: hdlant Package: cxterm-ks Package: ldmud Package: ocaml-doc Package: rancid-core Package: simh-rsts-images Package: gap4-gdat Package: revtex Package: treetool Package: phylip Package: scilab Package: iozone3 Package: doom-wad-shareware Package: dvipdfm-cjk-cmap Package: ocaml-book-en Package: gsn-jigsaw Package: qpage Package: ocaml-book-fr Package: libforms-doc Package: festvox-ellpc11k Package: serialmail-src Package: w3-recs Package: album Package: tads2 Package: ezmlm-src Package: tads3 Package: xmame-x Package: ines Package: figfonts Package: bulkmail Package: ttf-kochi-mincho-naga10 Package: chntpw Package: opustex Package: netpbm-nonfree Package: cucipop Package: gbdk-dev Package: snes9x-svga Package: tadsr Package: rtlinux Package: speak-freely Package: conserver-server Package: wwwtable Package: mpi-specs Package: rutebook Package: wwwcount Package: rancid-util Package: prime-net Package: j2sdk1.4-src Package: motif-clients Package: graphviz Package: unarj Package: crafty Package: libmotif3 Package: cedictb5 Package: portsentry Package: lmbench-doc Package: nntpcache Package: its4 Package: gs-aladdin Package: pgplot5 Package: jdk1.1 Package: netscape-ko-resource-477 Package: xpacman Package: picon-users Package: floater Package: spectrum-roms Package: astrolog Package: cedictgb Package: inform-docs Package: musixtex-doc Package: cl-faq Package: cxterm-jis Package: festlex-oald
Stephen are you sure?
I remember far less packages.
apt-get install vrms ( Virtual RMS ) to see what packages would be removed.
And yes, the KDE Knoppix will take the place of Knoppix KDE I imagine.
Yes for what is installed on your machine but not what is installable from the non-free packages. The packages above are ones that would not be considered because they are non-free.Originally Posted by eadz
Originally Posted by aay
I guess I don't under stand what the debate is about or the definition of "free" v. "free."
Whats wrong with the Acrobat reader and this long list of packages listed.
This "attitude" problem is anoter HINDERANCE to Linux on the desktop in the home, especially, and at the office.
"It is a good thing to distribute KDE, but distributing copies of
Knoppix is a bad thing."
Well for the last part I STONGLY DISAGREE. If they don't like Knoppix, dont use it!
I tried posting this last night, but the forum has a bug that doesn't let you login from posting a comment--It asks for your password,but tosses your comments! ouch!
back on topic!
If you read thru the posts, you'll see that the KDE people wanted a special version of "Knoppix KDE" to pass out at a show to prospective software writers to use KDE. They were upset to find that Knoppix had free but non-GNU stuff added to it.
The backstory is that RMS spent so much time over the last years beating them into GPL goodness that they wanted a 100% OSS disc. Klaus' vison of Knoppix is to cram as much as he can on it for maximum utility, as long as the disc is freely copyable & redistributable for everyone who gets a disc. The fact that things like drivers, fonts, etc are free to download, but not "Open Source" isn't really an issue.
The KDE people really wanted a "Knoppix" branded disc to show off.. because it's getting a lot of buzz lately [and rightfully so!] That's really the only thing that made a stink here. Whoever was putting it together didn't want to brand it "Knoppix" but strip out all the non-OSS stuff just to appease them. The little bits of drivers are what makes Knoppix "just work" so well versus being straight Debian. They didn't feel it would be in their interest [or ours either] to have a bunch of people with "crippled" discs out there a. blasting the forums to find out what's wrong, & b. giving "Knoppix" a bad name because stuff didn't work like it did for other people. Klaus can't support any forks--even to satisfy the GNU people. His work is GPL'd so they can use it, no hard feelings, but if they want to be that strict about the "free" stuff they'll have to go elsewhere and not call it "knoppix".
My solution to the KDE people would be to use Morphix instead. Morphix gives credit to Knoppix and is a system to build discs rather than support for 1 specific disc. Then they could also create a seperate module with all the "missing" stuff rolled up for people to download seperately. While they were at it, they could have a set of modules made to cover the whole functions of offices, mail/web/DB servers, desktop, firewall...all that could be in seperate Morphix modules to show people how far GNU/Linux has really come.
As someone new to this, and fully in favour of open source / free software, it does seem that folks do get a little ideological about it, and that stands in the way of broader acceptance of Linux.
It is a royal pain in the arse to have to download a program and install it just to be able to watch DVDs, or read PDF files. No one new to the OS wants to be dealing with that kind of stuff. I can see why you might want a 'pure' version, but for most people out there there is room in the world for free and non-free software. I for one don't really, on a day to day basis, care whether Acrobat is 'free' or not. I guess if I sat down and thought about it I might, but it irritates me much more that the os I just installed can't read dvds without me having to download a patch and install it.
I try to use to use free software applications in lieu of non-free software applications as much as is possible and palatable to my tastes.
I was a happy Suse user for years and switched to Knoppix primarily to achieve this aim.
Knoppix does a pretty good job of minimizing non-free packages.
I ran "Virtual RMS" (apt-get -t unstable install vrms) and found only 8 items.
All of which I never heard and I can uninstall without missing any of them.
Steve
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