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Thread: knoppix networking secure?

  1. #1
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    knoppix networking secure?

    Hi,
    .
    after booting up a knoppix CD 5.0.1 I noticed connections being made out of my box, without me even going online.
    .
    Is that something anyone else has noticed?!?!?
    .
    Why doesn't knoppix take a little seriously the possibility of "a third party acting as THE man in the middle" corrupting files (even dynamically and for a user with a purpose)?
    .
    Why not having HTTPS pages to the files signatures ...?
    .
    Albretch
    // __
    traceroute to 63.143.104.141 (63.143.104.141), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
    1 r1-n64.acecape.com (66.114.64.1) 16.619 ms 13.882 ms 15.764 ms
    2 r2-ge2.acecape.com (66.114.76.226) 14.518 ms 14.106 ms 13.019 ms
    3 * * *
    .
    // __
    sh-3.1# whois 63.143.104.141
    WINSTAR WINSTAR-BLK8 (NET-63-140-0-0-1) 63.140.0.0 - 63.143.255.255
    Traders Advantage TRADERA-WSTR (NET-63-143-104-0-1) 63.143.104.0 - 63.143.104.255
    .
    // __
    sh-3.1# whois 221.208.208.95
    % [whois.apnic.net node-1]
    % Whois data copyright terms http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html

    inetnum: 221.208.0.0 - 221.212.255.255
    netname: CNCGROUP-HL
    descr: CNCGROUP Heilongjiang Province Network
    descr: China Network Communications Group Corporation
    descr: No.156,Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street,
    descr: Beijing 100031
    country: CN
    admin-c: CH455-AP
    tech-c: BG63-AP
    remarks: service provider
    mnt-by: APNIC-HM
    mnt-lower: MAINT-CNCGROUP-HL
    mnt-routes: MAINT-CNCGROUP-RR
    status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE
    changed: hm-changed@apnic.net 20031110
    changed: hm-changed@apnic.net 20060124
    source: APNIC

    route: 221.208.0.0/14
    descr: CNC Group CHINA169 Heilongjiang Province Network
    country: CN
    origin: AS4837
    mnt-by: MAINT-CNCGROUP-RR
    changed: abuse@cnc-noc.net 20060118
    source: APNIC

    role: CNCGroup Hostmaster
    e-mail: abuse@cnc-noc.net
    address: No.156,Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street,
    address: Beijing,100031,P.R.China
    nic-hdl: CH455-AP
    phone: +86-10-82993155
    fax-no: +86-10-82993102
    country: CN
    admin-c: CH444-AP
    tech-c: CH444-AP
    changed: abuse@cnc-noc.net 20041119
    mnt-by: MAINT-CNCGROUP
    source: APNIC

    person: Binghui Gao
    nic-hdl: BG63-AP
    e-mail: gaobh@mail.hl.cn
    address: Communication Corporation Internet Enterprise Division of HLJ
    phone: +86-451-2804465
    fax-no: +86-451-2804442
    country: CN
    changed: gaobh@mail.hl.cn 20030221
    mnt-by: MAINT-CNCGROUP-HL
    source: APNIC
    .
    // __
    Wed Jul 12 07:45:14 EDT 2006
    sh-3.1# traceroute 221.208.208.95
    traceroute to 221.208.208.95 (221.208.208.95), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
    1 r1-n64.acecape.com (66.114.64.1) 41.245 ms 16.583 ms 13.065 ms
    2 r5-ge2.acecape.com (66.114.76.22 45.245 ms 14.223 ms 15.520 ms
    3 64.124.176.main1.above.net (64.124.176.202) 38.549 ms 14.483 ms 185.301 ms
    4 so-3-0-0.cr2.lga1.us.above.net (64.125.27.149) 35.428 ms 15.844 ms 47.303 ms
    5 so-1-0-0.pr2.lga1.us.above.net (64.125.27.137) 46.770 ms 16.532 ms 47.788 ms
    6 0.so-0-0-3.BR1.NYC4.ALTER.NET (204.255.168.45) 44.970 ms 17.105 ms 47.305 ms
    7 0.ge-5-0-0.XL3.NYC4.ALTER.NET (152.63.3.109) 44.392 ms 16.924 ms 14.759 ms
    8 0.so-5-0-0.XL1.LAX7.ALTER.NET (152.63.116.249) 88.677 ms 91.425 ms 89.658 ms
    9 POS6-0.IG1.LAX7.ALTER.NET (152.63.117.209) 90.319 ms 88.379 ms 88.071 ms
    10 china_network-gw.customer.alter.net (208.222.0.9 276.253 ms 279.185 ms 277.961 ms
    11 219.158.3.201 (219.158.3.201) 279.828 ms 278.142 ms 278.832 ms
    12 219.158.4.73 (219.158.4.73) 305.849 ms 310.153 ms 307.047 ms
    13 219.158.7.66 (219.158.7.66) 420.564 ms 418.676 ms 414.734 ms
    14 61.138.38.118 (61.138.38.11 465.992 ms 462.662 ms 463.229 ms
    15 61.138.38.38 (61.138.38.3 435.709 ms 432.883 ms 435.944 ms
    16 218.10.95.58 (218.10.95.5 478.144 ms 477.958 ms 484.692 ms
    17 221.209.63.62 (221.209.63.62) 476.977 ms 477.146 ms 479.778 ms
    18 221.208.208.95 (221.208.208.95) 423.419 ms 425.046 ms 432.200 ms
    .
    // __
    sh-3.1# whois 63.143.104.141
    WINSTAR WINSTAR-BLK8 (NET-63-140-0-0-1)
    63.140.0.0 - 63.143.255.255
    Traders Advantage TRADERA-WSTR (NET-63-143-104-0-1)
    63.143.104.0 - 63.143.104.255

    # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-07-11 19:10
    # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
    sh-3.1# whois 65.106.89.99

    OrgName: XO Communications
    OrgID: XOXO
    Address: Corporate Headquarters
    Address: 11111 Sunset Hills Road
    City: Reston
    StateProv: VA
    PostalCode: 20190-5339
    Country: US

    ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.eng.xo.com:4321/

    NetRange: 65.104.0.0 - 65.107.255.255
    CIDR: 65.104.0.0/14
    NetName: XOXO-BLK-15
    NetHandle: NET-65-104-0-0-1
    Parent: NET-65-0-0-0-0
    NetType: Direct Allocation
    NameServer: NAMESERVER1.CONCENTRIC.NET
    NameServer: NAMESERVER2.CONCENTRIC.NET
    NameServer: NAMESERVER3.CONCENTRIC.NET
    NameServer: NAMESERVER.CONCENTRIC.NET
    Comment: ADDRESSES WITHIN THIS BLOCK ARE NON-PORTABLE
    Comment: Please report spam and viruses to abuse@xo.net.
    Comment: For better service, direct customers of XO may use
    Comment: the web form at http://www.xo.com/contact/care/
    Comment: for reverse DNS requests and other customer-specific
    Comment: technical issues. Thank you for your cooperation.
    Comment:
    RegDate:
    Updated: 2005-12-05

    OrgAbuseHandle: XCNV-ARIN
    OrgAbuseName: XO Communications, Network Violations
    OrgAbusePhone: +1-866-285-6208
    OrgAbuseEmail: abuse@xo.com

    OrgTechHandle: XCIA-ARIN
    OrgTechName: XO Communications, IP Administrator
    OrgTechPhone: +1-703-547-2000
    OrgTechEmail: ipadmin@eng.xo.com

    # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-07-11 19:10
    # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.


    Found a referral to rwhois.eng.xo.com:4321.

    %rwhois V-1.5:003fff:00 rwhois.eng.xo.com (by Network Solutions, Inc. V-1.5.9)
    network:Class-Name:network
    network:ID:NET-XO-NET-416a5960
    network:Auth-Area:65.104.0.0/14
    network:Network-Name:XO-NET-416a5960
    network:Organization;I:Millennium Computer Products (158836-1)
    network:IP-Network:65.106.89.96/28
    network:Admin-Contact;I:XCIA-ARIN
    network:Tech-Contact;I:XCIA-ARIN
    network:Created:20010607
    network:Updated:20010627
    network:Updated-By:ipadmin@eng.xo.com

    %ok
    sh-3.1#
    .
    // __
    sh-3.1# traceroute 65.106.89.99
    traceroute to 65.106.89.99 (65.106.89.99), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
    1 r1-n64.acecape.com (66.114.64.1) 15.279 ms 14.229 ms 23.820 ms
    2 r5-ge2.acecape.com (66.114.76.22 13.032 ms 16.529 ms 15.186 ms
    3 64.124.176.main1.above.net (64.124.176.202) 40.051 ms 16.096 ms 14.610 ms
    4 so-3-0-0.cr2.lga1.us.above.net (64.125.27.149) 41.687 ms 14.236 ms 44.612 ms
    5 so-1-0-0.pr2.lga1.us.above.net (64.125.27.137) 44.151 ms 15.283 ms 44.902 ms
    6 xo-above-oc3.lga1.above.net (208.184.233.230) 15.738 ms 12.984 ms 44.991 ms
    7 p5-0-0.RAR1.NYC-NY.us.xo.net (65.106.3.37) 15.811 ms 16.518 ms 15.471 ms
    8 p6-0-0.RAR2.Chicago-IL.us.xo.net (65.106.0.29) 42.658 ms 42.232 ms 50.844 ms
    9 p1-0-0.RAR1.Dallas-TX.us.xo.net (65.106.0.34) 59.955 ms 61.978 ms 60.762 ms
    10 p6-0-0.RAR2.LA-CA.us.xo.net (65.106.0.14) 92.149 ms 90.143 ms 94.672 ms
    11 p4-0-0.MAR2.SanDiego-CA.us.xo.net (65.106.5.42) 97.403 ms 96.176 ms 94.763 ms
    12 ge13-0.CLR1.SanDiego-CA.us.xo.net (207.88.81.11 101.468 ms 99.452 ms 98.778 ms
    13 65.106.89.18.ptr.us.xo.net (65.106.89.1 101.782 ms 100.385 ms 102.467 ms
    14 mcp2001.com (65.106.89.99) 104.075 ms 104.039 ms 104.911 ms
    .
    // __

  2. #2
    Administrator Site Admin-
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    I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you see actual traffic go out when Knoppix boots, and that some if that traffic goes out to some of the sites that you referenced in the lower part of your post, including sites in China? If so that sure doesn't sound good and I would like to know what is going on too. I'll break out the hub and ethereal and give it a look, once I'm clear on what we are talking about. How did you establish the information that you posted? Is there later traffic going to the same addresses? Have you pinned down what is in the packets that you see?
    ---
    Verifying of md5 checksum and burning a CD at slow speed are important.

  3. #3
    Senior Member registered user
    Join Date
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    168
    > Are you saying that you see actual traffic go out when Knoppix boots, and that some if that traffic goes out to some of the sites that you referenced in the lower part of your post, including sites in China?
    C: Yes, I am!
    .
    > If so that sure doesn't sound good and I would like to know what is going on too.
    C: No, it certainly doesn't, but I found a bit amazing that you are so shocked about that
    .
    Where do you live in Europe? Here in the states the US gov has been doing all kinds of "fancy" things for a very long time, in short privacy/security in modern days is "the Santa of adulthood"
    .
    I have been detecting all of this bs and much more for a long time,
    .
    http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14977259
    .
    for example, the only way I can work online is using an external drive attached to a knoppix-based box with no hard drives. I download things, physically kicked myself off line by powering down the modem and then connect my external firewire drive and transfer stuff in order to keep working ... Yes, it is annoying, but your life gets "interesting" ... and no, the "if you aren't a criminal there is nothing you should worry about" mentality doesn't exactly work in this case, they apparently f#ck!ng think they own your fr3@k!ng life.
    .
    But giving politicians/police the attention/credit they deserve, let's look at the technical/physical matters/context. To me the only possible ways for them to do such thing are:
    .
    1._ by making sure you download a "by-them-crafted" version of knoppix (this is why I think that a central repository of signature info based on https is important)
    2._ somehow hacking into my computer's BIOS ...
    3._ somehow hacking into my computer's NIC ...
    4._ somehow physically bugging my computer ...
    .
    I consider #4, but I don't think they would do it, because you would then have an obvious physical evidence.
    .
    Am I missing any other option there?
    .
    IMO knoppix would only be involved in the first case, even though it could be used to detect 2. or 3.
    .
    > I'll break out the hub and ethereal and give it a look, once I'm clear on what we are talking about.
    I am not using a hub I am connecting to the internet directly from my NIC in a "NIC <-.-> dsl modem <-.-> outgoing cable" configuration
    .
    > How did you establish the information that you posted?
    I have been noticing unexpectedly weired things right after I downloaded knoppix 5.0.1, so I run ethereal (from within knoppix) and detected connections going out of my computer these places (the IPs aren't really important since all ISPs MUST set up back doors into their services for for the US gov to do their so-called "intelligence" work)
    .
    > Is there later traffic going to the same addresses?
    No, but notice my comment above. These guys are even a bit amusing I just came from vacationing in China (Aren't these smart pants!?!)
    .
    > Have you pinned down what is in the packets that you see?
    That I didn't do, my mistake. The thing is that you are trying to get stuff done and must try really hard to consider this just an annoyance. Also, I would try to read into any of these, till I make sure to a safe extent that my base (knoppix) is a trustworthy one.
    .
    Is there anything else or new you would recommend to me?
    .
    Thank you
    Albretch

  4. #4
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    hmmm, very interesting

    > 1._ by making sure you download a "by-them-crafted" version of knoppix (this is why I think that a central repository of signature info based on https is important)

    What is the md5sum of the version that you are using?

  5. #5
    Senior Member registered user
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    168
    sh-3.1# ls -l
    total 714104
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 730036224 Jun 26 15:07 KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 69 Jun 27 01:20 KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso.md5
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 305 Jun 26 14:00 KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso.md5.asc
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 267 Jun 26 14:00 README
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9792 Jun 26 14:00 knoppix-cheatcodes.txt
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 322318 Jun 26 15:02 packages-dvd.txt
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 123432 Jun 26 14:00 packages.txt
    sh-3.1# md5sum *.iso
    653acc801d4059598bd388de8171a20d KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso
    sh-3.1# cat KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso.md5.asc
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    653acc801d4059598bd388de8171a20d *KNOPPIX_V5.0.1CD-2006-06-01-EN.iso
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQFEgKKwN5jj11fjcIcRAt5rAJ97aq9C5TbU3dhLTwTtK3 STxdYsAACgk6rY
    fNsUj7N/tHk6qOUo6VwkYCY=
    =Tm8k
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    sh-3.1#

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albretch
    I am not using a hub I am connecting to the internet directly from my NIC in a "NIC <-.-> dsl modem <-.-> outgoing cable" configuration

    Is there anything else or new you would recommend to me?
    knopnet is correct; if you get your copy of the ISO from a mirror you should definately check the md5 against the proper md5. And if you believe that your source may have modified the iso then it makes no sense to check it against the md5 from that source, check it against other mirrors.

    But as to your traffic with China, I'm amazed that you are concerned about security and Internet traffic but don't run with the hardware firewall protection that an inexpensive router gives you. I thought you were seeing these packets as Knoppix boots, but since you must already be booted to run ethereal then I now understand that you are seeing them after booting, and without a hardware firewall what you are actually seeing is simply traffic from China looking for users without hardware firewalls to infect the systems of. See also answer #4. There is an amazing amount of this type traffic on any Iternet connection, and one would be a fool to not block it.

    Software firewalls are not sufficent. Particularly with Windows, which has awful security and is the system most of these attacks are looking for. Microsoft is said to have put some back doors in their firewall which the hackers know how to exploit. But even without that, before a softwall firewall can examine packets and decide if they should pass or not, those packets mush have beem processed by a good part of the TCI/IP stack. Micfrosoft is so troubled by buffer overflows and other poor programming bugs that you can't count on a software firewall to protexct you if the hacker can exploit buffer overflows before the software firewall ever sees the packet.

    What I had intended to do was set up ethereal on a second systen and by using a hub so that I could see all of the traffic out of and into my Knoppix system, watch the traffic during a Knoppix boot. Since I'm behind a hardware firewall I know any such traffic that I see would originate on the Knoppix end. I should see packets to the same address as you. But if you are running without a NAT router then I'm not going to further waste my time chasing ghosts, I'm confident that your China packets are responses to packets from the plague of attacks always on the Internet. (It is said that a fress new Install of Windows will be infected in 4 minutes or less, before it can even install the "security updates" it needs, if it is exposed directly to the internet and not behind a router.)

    Since you have concerns, I would suggest that you get a NAT router and try this again. A nice side effect is that you will not need to run PPPoE software in Knoppix. But most important will be that you will have a hardware firewall. After you get that I suggest looking very closely at your Windows install and removing all the viruses that are there. And be sure to check fior rootkits, software that is designed to hid itself and it's activity by intercepting the normal disk access calls made to windows and lie about the hard disk when those calls would give it away. There are some software approaches that can find rootkits (such as a raw read of the individual sectors of the disk and the scanning software putting back together the file system and comparing that against what the results of normal system calls return). The rootkits, of course, are getting smarter too so it's an ongoing battle to continue to be able to detect them. One good way that can't be stopped by rootkit software is to watch the Internet traffic for telltale packets from a second trusted computer. For this you do need a hub (or resort to ARP poisonning in a switch, which I do not advise).

  7. #7
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    By the way, a DSL modem does not connect to the outgoing cable connection, it connects to the phone line. So you likely either have a cable modem and not dsl, or you don't connect to the cable connection.
    ---
    Verifying of md5 checksum and burning a CD at slow speed are important.

  8. #8
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    > it makes no sense to check it against the md5 from that source, check it against other mirrors
    That I know, however, if some middle man "owns" your connection to the Internet things might not be so simple
    .
    > traffic with China
    I never said traffic was originating from China or elsewhere. Anyone within your immediate network can easily spoof IP addresses ...
    .
    > the hardware firewall protection that an inexpensive router gives you
    I have used two routers so far. The latest one has been a LINKSYS BEFSX41 and I have had more problems when I use routers, since for some reason they are apparently easier to hack
    .
    > you were seeing these packets as Knoppix boots
    I always give at the booting cheat code: "init 3" or "myconfig=scan init 3" and then mount the drives (internal or externals) if I need them and then run startx
    Before I even used my browser or anything I notice these connections going on
    .
    > ... outgoing cable connection
    I meant "outgoing cable connection" in a general sense. I do use a DSL modem connecting to the phone line
    .
    > ... Windows
    I use Windows only when I have to do some client tests and such things
    .
    Thanks

  9. #9
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    Hello,
    so I run ethereal (from within knoppix) and detected connections going out of my computer
    That exonerates the developers because they are not that stupid.
    by making sure you download a "by-them-crafted" version of knoppix
    a valid concern and that is what md5 is all about. people seem to think that there can be data corruption after data transfer and it is common that people suggest to check the checksum if there is a problem but this is flawed thinking and for a long time I wondered why people still included them. The reason I wondered this is because checksuming is done constantly by the tcp protocal, corruption is caught and retransmitted instanlly so a corrupt image never hits the disk(provided no internal errors). then i reallized that my isp could pretend to be the server i am getting the info from and have a clean data tranfer but still end up with a corrupt image. Posting checksums on forums is an excellent deterent for attempting such things because you can double check these things from public terminals or even a strangers house, if they let you.

    using an external drive attached to a knoppix-based box with no hard drives.
    This provides you no security if your iso is contaminated. Best to always run live from a clean iso but that doesn't solve firmware and bios problems. Knoppix is not designed for ultra secruity, it is leading edge stuff that is working... if not in very case. I'm looking into other secure distros but I"m not sure yet, hehe the nsa has one for you.


    I always give at the booting cheat code: "init 3" or "myconfig=scan init 3" and then mount the drives (internal or externals) if I need them and then run startx
    This suggests you are going a little too far, chill.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrebel
    a valid concern and that is what md5 is all about. people seem to think that there can be data corruption after data transfer and it is common that people suggest to check the checksum if there is a problem but this is flawed thinking and for a long time I wondered why people still included them.
    I can assure you that for the people who download from the mirrors there can and frequently is corruption. About 1/2 of all the downloads that I got from mirrors were corrupt before Knoppix by BitTorrent became available (I have gone into greater detail about the nature of this corruption in other posts and will not duplicate that here). Many of the "booting problems" that we tried to help people with over the years have proven to be problems that would have been caught quickly and solved if people had only checked the md5 sum instead of thinking "I don't know what this md5 is that they keep telling me to check, so I'll just ignore it". While I have seen at least one report of a corrupt ISO downloaded by BitTorrent, I have doubts about that considering all of BT's built-in error checking. But if one has any doubt the md5 comes down right along with the ISO.

    Checking the md5 makes less sense for security to prevent someone delivering a compromised copy of the file, if you check it against the md5 that is on the same mirror. However, there has never been a case of a compromised Knoppix ISO on any of the official mirrors, and I expect this would be caught very quickly. If there is any doubt one should get the md5 file from the primary DE site, or at least a different mirror, and make the test.

    If someone gets the ISO from some untrusted source, like a newsgroup or e-mule or some other high risk source, then they take their chances and I'm not too concerned about them, they likely have plenty of other problems anyway.


    And, of course, as in this case, if you run an Internet connection without the protection of a hardware firewall, then examining every packet in and out of your system and going into a panic as soon as you see a packet to or from an unexpected source, is just wacky. I find it hard to accept that Albretch actually had two routers hacked, but there have been exploits found for a few routers and I believe Linksys was one. Many more routers are compromised by someone getting into the system first though (by a virus or trojan perhaps) and then gaining access to the router from there, or by improperly set security on the router remote management (properly set means turning it completely off, as well as damn "features" like upnp). I have been running a high speed conection 24x7 for close to 7 years. I have used many routers over the years (starting with a Linksys, moving on to many wireless routers). I have never been hacked. I have never had a virus. I monitor and log well enough that I would know if such things had happened. But I would never run without a router (I don't even use dial-up any more, the problems have become so bad on the Internet that a software firewall just isn't enough).

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