Virtual Machines

[Harry Kuhman]

This post is not completely on-topic to Knoppix or even Linux, so I'm posting it here in the Lounge. I'm hoping that member ruymbeke (Gilles) will share his experience and knowledge, and that others might get involved also.

I'm interested in Virtual Machines and have used the VMware player and Gilles' Knoppix appliances. But there is a lot I'm still not clear on and I have a number of questions (and I'm sure I'll have plenty more, these just cover the stuff I think I know enough about to be able to ask questions now). While I've tried to do some reading on the web I'm not really finding the information that I had hoped for. I'm strictly using VMware Player at home as a learning tool and can't at this point justify buying the somewhat expensive Workstation package (and even if I could I would hope to know more about it before spending the money). A number of the questions will likely show that I don't have a good grasp of what Workstation is so I though I might as well say that up front.

First of all, I'm confused on why Gilles has had to make a different release for 5.1.0 than 5.0.1. After all, doesn't the ISO just show up as a virtual CD/DVD to VMware? Why would the virtual hardware care which ISO it was booting? For that matter, couldn't it be a single Virtual machine that booted any Live CD, any distro of Knoppix or anything else? It looks to me like Gilles is including some of the slick stuff he did to enable booting right from the ISO in a real machine, but since VMware can see the ISO as an optical drive I don't see why this would be needed or wanted. What am I missing?

Gilles has installed "the tools". First, I don't have a firm grasp of what this is, although I expect it gives a chance to interact with the VM when it is running. But since the Knoppix appliances don't include the Knoppix ISO at all (the user uses a stock ISO), just where have these "tools" been installed? I get the impression that they need to be installed with Workstation, but is this corrected? Could a simple text exit of a vmx file install them into anything once one had a copy (such as the copy that comes with the Knoppix appliance)?

I'm very unclear on why, when creating a Virtual Machine (such as at the site easyvmx.com), one needs to specify what host OS the virtual hardware will run. Why would a virtual machine care if it was running Linux or Windows? What happens if one wants to run some other OS on the Virtual Machine that is not listed? (There is a "other OS" option at easyvmx, but what does this mean when used?) Can anyone point me to a good discription of what happens here? This also seems to imply that one couldn't build a dual-boot VM. Is that correct? Yes, I'll grant that there may be better ways to deal with multiple OSs than a multi-boot machine; in most cases you would just have multiple virtual machines and choose which to run. But a multi-boot virtual machine would seem handy for testing and learning about boot loaders, as well as for seeing how compatable data and files systems are between different OSs. Maybe just asking this shows how clueless I am on this subject, but I would have hoped that the vitual machine could run any OS, or anything bootable, just as the real machine can.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to install Win98se into a virtual machine. I made the machine at easyvmx. When I start it, it boots my Win98se CD, but quickly informs me that the Plextor drive needs a scsi driver that isn't included in Win98, then just drops me to a A:> prompt in a DOS shell in the virtual machine. My understanding is that the booting Win98 must be seeing the virtual drive in the virtual machine (as opposed to my actual drive, which is being handled by XP), so why would a VM made specifically for Win98 not be able to actually boot and install a copy of a Win98se CD??? Am I being really dense here? Can anyone make me a VM that will boot my Win98se CD and let me install it in the VM (with the tools would be great)? I was expecting this to be extremely clean but it is not, at least with my current level of skills. Did I make an error in configuring the machine at easyvmx?

I see that VMware Server is also available free and should allow me to make virtual machines. Since Workstation is still their premum product and profit point, I'm not clear on what tradeoff I might have with Server. Is there any advantage (other than lower disk space needed) of running Player over Server? That is, do I give up any feature in Player if I switch to Server? Since sites like easyvmx should let me make virtual machines, do I gain anything over that by installing Server?

I expect I'll have plenty more questions as I progress, but answers to these would be a big help at this point.

[ruymbeke]

Hi Harry,
What a list of questions... I am not working for VmWare and their tech support should be the one
answering your requests, but I will do my best to give you some info and help...

...First of all, I'm confused on why Gilles has had to make a different release for 5.1.0 than 5.0.1...

The vmware tools binaries include kernel modules and as such need to be compiled for each specific kernel.
Since the kernels are differents in various Knoppix releases, the tools are also different and obviously my vms.

...After all, doesn't the ISO just show up as a virtual CD/DVD to VMware? Why would the virtual hardware care which ISO it was booting? For that matter, couldn't it be a single Virtual machine that booted any Live CD, any distro of Knoppix or anything else?

This is correct if you do not care about the vmware tools.
You can create a vm and boot/install all kind of OSes without a problem,
but the performances will be somewhat limited. If you have the tools installed
you get extra features that I care about alot as: improved running speed (especially in display rendering),
file sharing between host and guest OS(es), real time time synchronisation between host and guest OS(es),
on the fly screen size update, on the fly devices allocation of the host ressources to the vm
as floppy, CD/DVD, individual USB devices, ...

It looks to me like Gilles is including some of the slick stuff he did to enable booting right from the ISO in a real machine, but since VMware can see the ISO as an optical drive I don't see why this would be needed or wanted. What am I missing?

The tools again... IMHO the VMWare tools make VmWare much better than qemu as an example.
The vitual hdd contains the gzipped tools (loaded by the knoppix.sh script)
overriding (using the unionfs) some of the knoppix defaults in order to
load the tools kernel modules and start the tools services early in the boot process.
The vitual hdd also contain the grub bootlader allowing to change the boot options
and thanks to my customized minirt, I can change the hostname (via a boot cheatcode)
which is kind of useful if you have more than one knoppix vm in the same local network.

FYI, I did it first using a persistent disk image, but some of the unwanted settings
were also stored in the knoppix.tgz file and some of the nice features of the Knoppix live CD disappeared.
This is the reason for me to add the vm tools early in the Knoppix boot process and still use
the almost full autodetection. The tools are almost installed as a patch before the autodection starts.
If I use the persistent disk file, I also have to define a size for it (at time of creation),
which may not fit everybody's needs. I don't know if you can use a persistent disk file in read only mode
(as a snapshoot) and have the changes only stored in the ram. Otherwise the persistent disk
(and vm) size will grow over time when data is written when working with the vm.
l like the clean side (no history effect) of a live cd. With my approach, the persistent disk drive
can still be used (if you want it) and the vm overall size is also quite smaller.
Well, I may have forget some other good reasons...

Gilles has installed "the tools". First, I don't have a firm grasp of what this is, although I expect it gives a chance to interact with the VM when it is running. But since the Knoppix appliances don't include the Knoppix ISO at all (the user uses a stock ISO), just where have these "tools" been installe d? I get the impression that they need to be installed with Workstation, but is this corrected? Could a simple text exit of a vmx file install them into anything once one had a copy (such as the copy that comes with the Knoppix appliance)?

I believe that I already answered some of this in the previous lines.
AFAIK the tools are only availbale in the workstation (not the player).
Reason for me to have ask vmware the permission to publish a knoppix vm with the tools preinstalled.
I think that vmware is working now on releasing their tools with a "more open" license.
Anyway if the vmplayer runs a vm with the tools already installed (previously by the workstation)
you still get the tools benefits although the vmplayer is used and not the workstation.
But the vmplayer does not give you the opportunity to install them because
(the tools iso files) are not included in the vmplayer package.

I'm very unclear on why, when creating a Virtual Machine (such as at the site easyvmx.com), one needs to specify what host OS the virtual hardware will run. Why would a virtual machine care if it was running Linux or Windows? What happens if one wants to run some other OS on the Virtual Machine that is not listed? (There is a "other OS" option at easyvmx, but what does this mean when used?) Can anyone point me to a good discription of what happens here? This also seems to imply that one couldn't build a dual-boot VM. Is that correct? Yes, I'll grant that there may be better ways to deal with multiple OSs than a multi-boot machine; in most cases you would just have multiple virtual machines and choose which to run. But a multi-boot virtual machine would seem handy for testing and learning about boot loaders, as well as for seeing how compatable data and files systems are between different OSs. Maybe just asking this shows how clueless I am on this subject, but I would have hoped that the vitual machine could run any OS, or anything bootable, just as the real machine can.

I am not sure about this one, but my understanding is that it will more or less always work
but performances will be improved if you reduce the number of "live hooks" or run time patches
used to exit the native code execution and trap into the vmware monitor
in order to emulate the OS specific exceptions. This is matter of efficency and ressources sharing.
FYI, I used ghost with DOS network support to shrink my Knoppix virtual hdd.
So even if the Linux OS settings are used for the vm, I still can boot and run DOS code without any problem.
In the same way, in order to develop/test faster the Knoppix iso boot (and the pivot root fromhd=)
I use a XP vm from which I boot Knoppix using the iso file (or the KNOPPX file).
I believe that we can call this a XP/Linux dual boot.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to install Win98se into a virtual machine. I made the machine at easyvmx. When I start it, it boots my Win98se CD, but quickly informs me that the Plextor drive needs a scsi driver that isn't included in Win98, then just drops me to a A:> prompt in a DOS shell in the virtual machine. My understanding is that the booting Win98 must be seeing the virtual drive in the virtual machine (as opposed to my actual drive, which is being handled by XP), so why would a VM made specifically for Win98 not be able to actually boot and install a copy of a Win98se CD??? Am I being really dense here? Can anyone make me a VM that will boot my Win98se CD and let me install it in the VM (with the tools would be great)? I was expecting this to be extremely clean but it is not, at least with my current level of skills. Did I make an error in configuring the machine at easyvmx?

If I remember this right, I believe that I installed 98 in a vm without any problem using the vmware workstation.
But I would suggest to avoid using scsi devices for both cd/dvd and hdd but use instead only ide storage devices.
If it is helpful for you, I can create an empty (hdd) vm for win98 using only
the ide mass storage interface for both the optical and hdd devices.

I see that VMware Server is also available free and should allow me to make virtual machines. Since Workstation is still their premum product and profit point, I'm not clear on what tradeoff I might have with Server. Is there any advantage (other than lower disk space needed) of running Player over Server? That is, do I give up any feature in Player if I switch to Server? Since sites like easyvmx should let me make virtual machines, do I gain anything over that by installing Server?

As far as I know, The VMware server is much closer to the workstation than the vmplayer.
More supported options but as far as I remmeber, the licence is quite different as well...
If the licence is ok for you and you don' mind giving up some personnal info at the registration time,
the server is most likely a better option to use...

Hope this will bring some light... and please let me know if I can help you with an empty 98 vm.
Best Regards,
Gilles

[Harry Kuhman]

Thanks for the feedback. It's slowly coming together, but I've spent the evening surfing are studying and I'm far from comfortable that I have a strong grasp on what is really going on.

If I remember this right, I believe that I installed 98 in a vm without any problem using the vmware workstation. But I would suggest to avoid using scsi devices for both cd/dvd and hdd but use instead only ide storage devices. If it is helpful for you, I can create an empty (hdd) vm for win98 using only
the ide mass storage interface for both the optical and hdd devices.

Well, I fought a lot more with my Win98 issue this evening also and had a few more failures, but still can't get it to boot that Windows 98 CD. Strangely, the error was pointing me in the other direction, it's claiming the virtual Plextor drive needs SCSI support or ACPI support and wants me to check with my hardware manufacturer (who, of course, is virtual). Google is leading me to lots of interesting reading, but so far nothing has helped. I'm also not at all clear on these IDE and SCSI options, easyVMX only gives me that choice if I go into the advanced setup, and the advanced setup is still very confusing to me. I've played some games with these setting and editing the vmx file and managed to get VMplayer to complain about a virtual disk being improperly structured for scsi, but my grasp of what is going on, or why there are choices, is about at cave man level.

I would gladly accept your offer for a Win98 VM. I'll contact you by PM with an address that you could send it to (or contact me by PM if you want me to download it or get some other way). Thanks.

[GCMartin]

Has there been a Win98SE VM post?

[ruymbeke]

Has there been a Win98SE VM post?

http://s94002264.onlinehome.us/grub/vm/w98.zip
But did you try: http://easyvmx.com/ ?
Hope this helps,
Gilles

[Harry Kuhman]

Has there been a Win98SE VM post?

You're asking for Win98SE under VMware, right, and not a Knoppix VM that runs in Win98 (since VMware does not run in 98 )?

If so I finally got one working, but it was a trick. I used easyvmx, as Giles suggested, but switched to VMXbuilder, it was cleaner and gave me more control. Still had problems that I couldn't get the virtual machine to boot the Win98CD. So I got a Win98 boot floppy and made a bootable CD from it in Nero. I started the VM, booted the boot floppy CD, and was able to use that to boot my Win98sde CD and install Win98se into the virtual machine.

[GCMartin]

I give it a run with the suggestions for Win98SE in a VM.