knoppix essential packages?

[Dave]

Hi All,
I want to do a remaster of latest CD version of knoppix. Basically, I want to strip out all the apps and add a few I need. I am comfortable with doing the traditional chroot method, and removing packages manually, but I want to proceed without breaking any of the great hardware detection. Is there a list of essential packages that should be left intact to not break the hardware detection and auto-config? Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated.
Dave

[klaus2008]

I don't think that there exists a list of essential packages for the public.

What parts are considered essential depends on whether you need ADRIANE. I think that is safe to remove the Libre Office packages. Removing or upgrading packages might include the removal of ADRIANE.

I think that you should create a list of all packages first. The dpkg command can create such a list.

If you find a file and want to find out to what package it belongs to you can use the search function of the dpkg command. Then you can try to remove that package by using the apt-get command with the --simulate option. This will show you what other packages would also be removed.

As you can imagine it will be a really time consuming task.

[Capricorny]

Dave,
You are essentially asking for a Knoppix version (adaptation) of debootstrap. I have also asked for that, and I think there is a need for it.
In my experience, the approach to minimalism by substantial package purging is unsafe at any speed. Remove, games, some utilities, LibeOffice, yes - but it is very easy to get a malfunctioning system when proceeding further.
But, how much free space do you need? I would guess you could at least free a few hundred megabytes safely - and I would have kept it at that. Or created a small DVD ISO instead of CD, to avoid that CD size limit.

[dwstarke]

Hate to throw cold water on all this remastering, but is it possible that someone who has created a minimalist knoppix that still does hardware-detection and creates the unionfs with persistence could just make it available? I'm having trouble in this area also and would like to start from the smallest possible iso. If someone has such a beast, please make it available.

[Capricorny]

Hate to throw cold water on all this remastering, but is it possible that someone who has created a minimalist knoppix that still does hardware-detection and creates the unionfs with persistence could just make it available? I'm having trouble in this area also and would like to start from the smallest possible iso. If someone has such a beast, please make it available.

Well, I see that you probably don't know how easy remasterings can be done nowadays I have even remastered running in a virtual machine under qemu, so the pc may still be used for all other things during remastering. Remastering from your own adaptation is almost always faster, safer and simpler than working out from someone else's.

I also see that you probably haven't worked much with upgrading. Having created minimal versions of a few Knoppix releases manually, that's a thing of the past for me. That very effect may be one reason why there seem to be few updated minimalist Knoppix offerings nowadays. I would guess many in need of such things will rather work out from Ubuntu's version of debootstrap - which I have turned to myself, too. Chrooting into that from Knoppix is, IMHO, one of the most efficient ways to achieve minimalism available right now.

A Knoppix version of debootstrap would let you create those beasts you are looking for quickly, easily and safely

[dwstarke]

I can't determine (on my own) which packages to take out of the mix. I have had some experience in the ancient past of recompiling Slackware 0.98, but no experience with modern linux. I don't mind remastering and I think I'm pretty close to taking Knoppix 7.0.3 and chrooting into it and then being able to reconstitute the iso. What I cannot seem to be able to do at all is remove packages that I think should not effect the iso, yet I have problems. This is exactly what you describe in your original post. So, I guess, that I wish there was a minimalist Knoppix that I could add to, since my hunch is that adding won't create as many problems as removing. Forgive me if my logic is faulty.

Thanks for your guidance here. I have no idea about Ubuntu.

[Capricorny]

I can't determine (on my own) which packages to take out of the mix. I have had some experience in the ancient past of recompiling Slackware 0.98, but no experience with modern linux. I don't mind remastering and I think I'm pretty close to taking Knoppix 7.0.3 and chrooting into it and then being able to reconstitute the iso. What I cannot seem to be able to do at all is remove packages that I think should not effect the iso, yet I have problems. This is exactly what you describe in your original post. So, I guess, that I wish there was a minimalist Knoppix that I could add to, since my hunch is that adding won't create as many problems as removing. Forgive me if my logic is faulty.

Thanks for your guidance here. I have no idea about Ubuntu.

I think there is no fault in logic per se, the main problem is that it seems that even Klaus Knopper may occasionally have problems stripping down to a CD version. Because of special adaptations and some general differences in approach, Knoppix and general Debian are quite different distro-wise, and seemingly diverging. Last year, I was able to mix and match vanilla Debian and Knoppix 6.4.4 for a pure 64-bits Knoppix version, couldn't repeat that with Knoppix 7.X.

Ubuntu is quite close to both, and my recent experience with it has been quite positive. (Much better than some years ago.) Maybe Ubuntu's version of debootstrap (which has worked flawlessly for me) could be adapted to Knoppix?

I think your hunch that adding is much safer than removing is quite to the point for today's versions. And because Klaus K's approach to booting and HW detection is the only one I have seen that I really like, I would really like to have a minimalist Knoppix. But anyone who wants something like that right now, should probably check out Ubuntu live.

[Capricorny]

I'm very glad we can probably do it the other way round: Using Knoppix init, and adjoin necessary Debian packages. IMHO, Knoppix init is much better! That was also what I did to make a 64-bits version of 6.4.4. One problem, is that several of Klaus K's Knoppix packages are seemingly not available for separate install. This may be because they are named the same for different releases, but may actually have some differences? (I just wonder.) A knxbootstrap utility would have to be able to download and install all Knoppix packages.

I have successfully chrooted from 7.X into a debootstrap-based 64-bits Ubuntu running, for example, 64-bits qemu, and I think that is currently the simplest way to run pure 64-bits routinely and (mostly) version-independently on a Knoppix-based system. In this situation, I am effectively using a bare-bones version of Knoppix. So, isolating the packages involved and merge them with the debootstrap set could get us there.

[dwstarke]

Yes, I agree. I am taking a two-pronged approach.

I am systematically stripping out small sections and then testing the resultant remastered KNOPPIX. This is slow going.

I have installed Ubuntu 12.04. and have installed a "precise" debootstrap chroot. Using a Knoppix poor man's install, I can (like Capricorny) chroot into this file tree and have installed all the Knoppix debian packages. I am now doing the tedious reading of the init scripts. Fortunately for us, Klaus moved from a compiled C hwsetup to a shell-script version. This suggests to me that this might just be possible. I am struggling to come up to speed on cloop and aufs so that the permanence feature can be debugged successfully. I would appreciate a citation from anyone with a resource for the requisite "how-tos".

I am now envisioning a basic KNOPPIX compressed fs with minimal software, a KNOPPIX2 file containing the software of choice, utilizing the ramdisk fs method Klaus was discussing in the other thread.

The result should be a read-only OS/app system (secure) with an easily backed-up persistent home directory (with the attending app configs) that will run on any system (because of the great hw detection). In my case, it will have the added advantage of being more purely Debian, so that further dev. will be almost trivial.

I will move somewhat slowly due to the lack of large blocks of time. I would be happy to collaborate with anyone who has a more advanced knowledge (or more time than I). If you have Ubuntu already installed, the setup is incredibly easy.

[Capricorny]

Yes, I agree. I am taking a two-pronged approach.

I am systematically stripping out small sections and then testing the resultant remastered KNOPPIX. This is slow going.

I have installed Ubuntu 12.04. and have installed a "precise" debootstrap chroot. Using a Knoppix poor man's install, I can (like Capricorny) chroot into this file tree and have installed all the Knoppix debian packages. I am now doing the tedious reading of the init scripts. Fortunately for us, Klaus moved from a compiled C hwsetup to a shell-script version. This suggests to me that this might just be possible. I am struggling to come up to speed on cloop and aufs so that the permanence feature can be debugged successfully. I would appreciate a citation from anyone with a resource for the requisite "how-tos".

I am now envisioning a basic KNOPPIX compressed fs with minimal software, a KNOPPIX2 file containing the software of choice, utilizing the ramdisk fs method Klaus was discussing in the other thread.

The result should be a read-only OS/app system (secure) with an easily backed-up persistent home directory (with the attending app configs) that will run on any system (because of the great hw detection). In my case, it will have the added advantage of being more purely Debian, so that further dev. will be almost trivial.

I will move somewhat slowly due to the lack of large blocks of time. I would be happy to collaborate with anyone who has a more advanced knowledge (or more time than I). If you have Ubuntu already installed, the setup is incredibly easy.

I think this may be fruitful - but the best would be if we could get Klaus K interested too. As I see it, much of what he has been doing has been either compatible with or directly useful for such an approach.

Klaus K has indicated he is working on 7.0.4 now, so maybe a new release isn't that far away. For my own part, I would like to use that as the starting point. Eventually providing input for him on possible adaptations in the next releases thereafter.

I think minirt init would need minimal adaptation for this approach - the only thing I personally would modify, is to provide support for either cloop or squashfs. (This is written on a system running remastered 7.0.3 with squashfs.)

I think the idea of a rather small basic KNOPPIX image is a good one. (Or maybe rather a few alternatives for the basic image.) There are always problems cramming in more in a DVD size image, and they would be greatly relieved if most basics were cared for in the KNOPPIX(.sq) image. Of course we don't have to stick to a 4GB max file size, but I have found that practical.

With wishful thinking, we could imagine (DVD size - 1.5GB) KNOPPIX2 images available for download, which could then be expanded and repackaged. A few users might also have need for a KNOPPIX3 image, but that would rather be the exception, I think.