Menus should be more explanatory for new users.

[drg55]

I have been using linux for 5 years, but I think one of the best things about knoppix is getting it on somebody's computer without all the install dramas. I have recommended it to several friends and also iniatied discussion on it in my lug.

Hence as an ambassador for Linux, I think looking over the menu items which have cryptic names, half of which I don't know what are, what is a new person to make of this?

Cheers

David.

[i58]

You know,
I agree somewhat with this. I really like Knoppix and am still very new to it, so I'm not sure the solution doesn't already exist. In my opinion, Knoppix strives to be a "full featured" distro for a reason. All the software is good to have on the disk if you are demoing Linux, or testing hardware compatability before installing Linux. That's exactly what you want, and I would not suggest that it change.

But, once you get to the point that you want to run it all the time from the HDD, I would personally like to see a "base" or "core" cd that gives you a only bare bones system with KDE for example. *No* extra apps. Then you can add all your software easily with apt-get. Even script the install so anyone can cook up a custom system over and over just by scripting the packages they want. A simple, but very customizable and powerful solution.

If software installs weren't so easy with apt-get, I'd probably not feel this way. But when I can use it and get my software so quick and easily, I really don't see the need for all the extra software when you install to disk. It seems like it would be less fuss also since you wouldn't have to keep releasing new revisions when apps are upgraded. The kernel and system internals would be the only changes to worry about.

I do find mysqlf removing a lot of the stuff just because I never need it. It would be nice if we had the option of a bare bones knoppix install as well as the full blown one. If for no other reason than it's the easiest Debian install I've ever seen -

[paradocs]

Hi all,

I think looking over the menu items which have cryptic names, half of which I don't know what are, what is a new person to make of this?

I agree that a new user may be a bit intimidated by the duplication and "embarrassment of riches" of all the programs. Actually I support using the DVD because the menu show even more!

I would suggest the following:
Make a welcome to the new user outlining a starting point of core programs.
Secondly, an answer lies in this and other forums. I note that the
German language forum has an "Applications" topic. That might be
a good addition to this forum -- of course the discussion would be
very basic with referral to other resources.

Thanks,
paradocs

[drg55]

actually having said this now, I notice that some of the menu items do offer an explanation eg kwrite has "(text editor)" next to it.

I think to click on everything in the menu just to find what it is is tedious, and this is a good style to maintain.

David.

[Henk Poley]

...But, once you get to the point that you want to run it all the time from the HDD, I would personally like to see a "base" or "core" cd that gives you a only bare bones system with KDE for example. *No* extra apps. Then you can add all your software easily with apt-get. Even script the install so anyone can cook up a custom system over and over just by scripting the packages they want. A simple, but very customizable and powerful solution.

Does anybody know if it is possible tell apt "remove everything, but keep these apps and their depencies?". Then you could easily make a little post-install script that gives the "base" packages and some user defined packages to apt with this command. Things like apache, and the database programs are barely used by most people.

You would still need ~2GB to install Knoppix, but it would free space afterwards.

[Cuddles]

OMG !

A string that fits just what I am having problems with !

I "AM" new to Knoppix, I "AM" looking to install Knoppix to my HDD, I "WANT" to run Knoppix 100% of the time, and, I "AM" having issues with all the programs that are showing up in the Menus.

Shesh, can a newbie say, "Overkill?"

I am affraid of just running any of those cryptic three letter acronyms, who knows what they do? For all I know, one of those puppies could inadvertantly be the "Big Red Button" that the President presses to start World War III !

I like the -=- small -=- helpful paren text that follows some of the Menu entries in some of the menus, they help. But, when a new person is looking for something that does "something" - that is a lot of menus to go looking through. Most of the higher Menus help; having KNOPPIX, Security, System, Office, Menus at the higher levels help you break down where you need to go. BUT, when you open one of those menus, you get flooded with a ton of programs, which one to use? Which one is best to use? Which is a simple program that does what you need, and which ones are like the CADALAC of these programs -=- case in point -=- Windows from version 95, and up, has always had Notepad, and WordPad - Notepad is an easy to use, no frilles, editor - whereas Wordpad is like the full-blown Word that comes with Office xxxx - If you need some features of Word, you can use Wordpad - and if you need all the "bells and whistles" - you run Word.

As my string in General Support is about, Maybe a Newbie suggestion on Books? Something a new person, like myself, can go to and find answers, what programs do, and when they can be used, and for what.

The forums here are good, don't get me wrong - but, a Crash-Course, Knoppix for Dummies book, literature, lite reading, Encyclopedia of sorts COULD help immensely on the topic. I could go to the book with questions, I could curl up with it going to bed, and learn without bugging everyone in the world about how stupid I am with this. It kinda helps a newbie to feel self-sufficiant on the issues of not knowing what they are doing. Shesh, I used to BARELY work in a Unix shop, and if I didn't have some background in the subject, just seeing a Unix command like Tar, and Cat, would make me wonder what the heck do they do? Reminds me, does Knoppix, Linux, Unix, have an equivalent to ZIP? (like WinZip in Windows?)

WOW! I was SOOOO impressed with the Live CD of Knoppix! It amazed me that something this good even existed, outside of the World of MS Domination, and all with Open Source - WOW ! All the PROVIDED applications, the games, the security programs, you had me floored. I was like a small child in a candy store, with a no limit expense account. Now that I am serious about converting from the MS world to Knoppix/Debian/Linux/Unix - I am just NOW - seeing as in the case of Neo, in the Matrix - Just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I think the main thing that gets me so hyped with Knoppix is that I can see what I can do with just the Live CD, and think, what more can I do if I install it ? ? ? Another case in point - when I just started programming with Visual Basic in Windows, the have a Help System for looking up commands, properties, etc... that comes with the program - I hate it! You can only find something in the Help System if you know what you are looking for. How would a newbie to VB know what a command is, if they don't know what it does? How could they find something without knowing what the command does? The Help System is a Glossery Indexed system. You need to know what the command name is to find the "How To" information for it. New people don't know that. They know they want to do "this", and need something that relates that to "what does that".

i.e. Cross-Indexed -=- Most Help is set up on the subject, then tells you what it does - what a newbie probably needs is the reverse.

I need something that compresses files? Tar.

Not,

What is Tar? A file compression program.

Oh well,
Cuddles

[paradocs]

Hi Cuddles,

I am a newbie, I have just been at it for a very long time.

This eased my learning curve:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO.html

Then once I understood the console some one on this forum
taught me apropos
for exampe
apropos compress
will give you a cross-reference and plenty to read
by typeing man xxxx for all you find.

Unfortunately concrete examples are spars so trial and
error may be the best teacher.

Best Wishes,
paradocs

[oldgeezer]

The only UI that comes close to fulfilling the requirements of regular folk is Lycoris. Hardly surprising, as it is run by M$ refugees. Unfortunately, though, these guys have got the wrong end of the stick and want pots of $$$ for their somewhat truncated effort and even more $$$ for add-ons. It would be really helpful if someone who knows these guys well, could advise them that they have a completely wrong business model. The OS has to be gratis. What they can earn on consultancy fees is their business. Hint: they could become very rich if they abandon their old, bad habits.
OG.

[turbine]

Don't noooobody take offense at this. This is merely an observation, based on a lot of years of looking at this. Traditionally the kind of people who have created/used Linux and other Unix systems have been tinkerers. If you asked them what the system is good for they'd say tinkering. Therefore when it came time for them to create menus to help with using the system, they naturally filled those menus with tools/programs to be used for tinkering. Tinker toys! Those of us who want to use the system for, for example, making money would like to see the menus filled with a different set of applications/tools. But we just can't ask those guys to do it for us; they can't because they just don't see things the same way that we do. This is somewhat of a dilemma because we all want more and more newbies from the business community to start using Linux. That's how we grow and how drivers for the latest hardware ultimately become more available.

Does anybody agree with the idea of trying to define a default set of menus via these forums? Then maybe submitting said list to the folks over at KDE?