rick i sincerely appreciate your patience and helpfulness, i have pushed my luck with this forum, and especially you, you have been a saint. i know it must get annoying if u feel you are answering questions for someone too lazy to get the info themselves. i assure you my friend, that is not the case with me. i am used to having to spend twice the time searching and reading, so when i came here it sort of spoiled me, but i also know the value of learning on my own, and using guys like you on an as needed basis, in the long run it is a much more comprehendable knowledge to learn in that manner, (as i am certain you are aware) so i am off to hunt and read, i really would like to thank u again for all of your help and anxiously anticipate my return to this forum in the near future, with the ability to actually carry on a conversation about knoppix