Linux is a dream that is not realy there

[mudwater]

I have been trying to install linux for over 4 years now. Every red hat linux i buy has bad cd's in it e-mail them they dont care. suse does not install. I just got a knoppix cd it just loads a picture and does nothing else. debian locks up. I use to run red hat an it worked ok. But i think i might join the BeOS team i think that linux needs to die out if something is that hard to install and year after year no body can fix it and make a easy install then the whole operating system needs to die. I have spent thousands and thousands of hours tring to get a linux on at least 5 different computers with non that work. What we need is a system where you down load a windows program hit enter and it burns the disk.
you put it in a computer and it installs linux. Not a system where you have to read hundreds of pages of boring text witht the hope that this time it will work. windows xp you put the disk in and answer some dumb questions then it installs. well i put your zero to linux in five minutes cd in my computer and it just loads a picture and then does nothing else.
but i will give it one more try on this system. down load it once more
12 hours with my conection. read a few hundred pages of text and find out it does not work what is a hundred more waisted hours. We all should turn our backs to linux and make something that works or clean house with linux and make the durn thing work. this is how i see it working
you down load a program one file for windows or mac what ever then you run that program and it burns the disk. you put that disk in computer you want to run linux on and it installs it. NO 300 lines of text you have to rawrite all that becuase that sucks once you spend 20 hours figuring out how to just make the disk run then you find out that is does not work. and Red hat is the worse they have no suport if you get bad disk's in your box then your out of luck and on your own. I think that linux does one thing it helps bill gates . yes it helps him cause the mass of people will never use linux becuase you can not install it. so it takes the people that could be finding a replacement for windows and keeps them busy in a dead OS. that is to hard to understand unless you dedicate your life to it . And i know linux i use emacs lynx and pine tar what ever i can figure it out. But a install of it is all but impossible to acomplish.

[Joe999]

I think your biggest mistake is applying your own experience to the entire world. I've been using Linux full time for two years now, with an additional partition for playing around installing new distros. In all that time, accross five or six distros, I've never once had a problem installing anything. But here's where our reasoning differs - I'm not about to say that Linux is for everyone. I've seen different people have different experiences, such as your own bad luck. Thus I'm not about to make any broad statements such as "Linux is perfect for everyone because it's good for me!", as you make your statement of "Linux is bad for everyone because it's bad for me!". Besides, what's wrong with having a choice anyway? If windows works better for you than Linux, why keep bothering with all this - just use windows. It sounds like you're using a combination of bad burns and unsupported or damaged hardware. If Linux can't run on it, and windows does, I'd think the better solution would be pretty apprent.

[champagnemojo]

For me, a knoppix install is much faster and easier than a windows install. And all the restarts in the windows software installs drive me nuts.

[rickenbacherus]

But i think i might join the BeOS team i think that linux needs to die out if something is that hard to install and year after year no body can fix it and make a easy install then the whole operating system needs to die.

Well I hope BeOS works out for you. It is apparent that you are just a home user of windows. If you were on the admin side or the pc-tech side and you had to fix windows day-in & day-out I think your perception of Linux might change. Sure, it might be a bit harder to install, sure you might actually have to type something instead of clicking 'yes' 5 times but I guarantee that the end result is far superior to anything that M$ has ever released. Don't forget that the easy installation you refer to also includes multiple intentional vulnerabilities. Play your dvd in XP and M$ knows what you're watching.

There are reasons for Linux being more difficult to install. Shall I name a few? I think I shall.

Partitioning-

Windows "do you want to use the entire disk for windows?" YES
-done Now they don't tell you that you're just wasting your disc space, they don't tell you that NTFS is a pice of s**t, they don't tell you that even tho you said 'NO' to internet services they're going to install them anyway but it is fast and easy isn't it?

Linux- uh oh! better learn cfdisk or parted or diskdrake or one of several others to partition your drive. Also you had better find out how many partitions you need, what size they should be, format them, select the mount point. Whew! That was alot of work! Why was that so hard?

1) It is possible that an application might start eating hdd space. If the partition that process is running in is only 2G then all it can eat is 2G.

2) What if a user downloads a virus ( i know there are none for Linux that we need concern ourselves with but let's pretend). Since Linux is a true multi-user system, the virus is contained to that users /home directory and doesn't hose the entire system. Why? because the virus has the same permissions of the user of that directory and therefor does not have permission to write to any of the other directories and is effectually contained. Remeber win98? All you had to do was log in with the wrong name and you created a new user! Now that's security ain't it?

3) I hosed up my install and have no choice but to reinstall. Not so bad considering that if /home is on a separate partition all you need do is tell Linux where it is and all of your tweaks, backgrounds, settings etc come back just as before.

4) Uh oh! I'm running out of room! Well with Linux you can simply copy any partition to a larger one, edit fstab and mount it to the new mount point. Voila! a larger filesystem!

Last count there were 8 reboots involved when installing win2k- Linux has only 1 or 2 and one of those is to boot your new OS.

M$ admits that their windows update software doesn't actually work all of the time and may falsely report that an update was installed when in fact it was not.

How to install an app in M$?

1) Search through thousands of pages of shareware/freeware mixed, read descriptions of apps that are *close* to what you want, find a potential winner, make sure it isn't spyware, scan it for viri, click, click, click install it. Or pay who-knows how much $ for an app that will be depracated in 1 year.

In Linux: If I want an app all I do is apt-get install <application name>

If I don't like it: apt-get remove <application name>.

How much has M$ cost you over the years? For me it was plenty. Are you aware that when you buy a new system w/ XP you don't really even get a copy of the OS? You get some lousy restore disc that you have to get permission to reinstall! You know what I have to say to M$ about that? Bite me you money grubbing bastards!

How much has Linux cost me? Only what I've donated and the time I spend writing things like this post.

Why is it that every other browser available (the bigger ones anyway, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror, Gnome, etc) have pop-up blocking built in? Surely if M$ software engineers wanted to they could easily add that feature to internet exploder but they do not. Why is that do you suppose?

My local school district in a town of 250,000 people just spent $600,000 for one years worth of M$ licenses! OMG! How many pc's could have been purchased new w/ no OS for that much money? I know for a fact that a school could get plenty of 1.0Ghz machines w/ 256M that would run Linux quite happily and do anything they desire.

I have a few old machine around. For example a 200 Mhz w/ 128M. What does M$ have to offer me for that machine? Nothing! Thankfully Debian runs wondefully on it and I even have a nice desktop, fast browser and the easiest installation of any OS that I have ever done.

Are you aware that M$ moved their M$update site to Linux servers because there was nothing they could do to stop the attacks on their servers?

How about you make an honest genuine effort to install Linux. Stick it out and don't get angry when something doesn't work the first time. I have yet to meet a machine that I cannot install Linux on. Sometimes it is a bitch but it can be done.

The gap is rapidly narrowing my friend. If you honestly beleive that Linux is going to vanish then you are sadly mistaken.

[Hunkah]

OK, I agree that Linux can be a pain to install at times. Mostly due to bad burns. I have had to DL and burn some three times before I finally bought a new burner. Now each work right away. I also use 700MB CD/RWs too so that I don't need to waste money and land fills. But there are some distros that suck like a rug! I did a full 7 CD DL and burn of Debian and didn't get past disk one!!! Friggin Debian! But Knoppix is the first one that went in and booted up after a couple minutes. I was able to use it and play around, then go back to windahs (as my grandmother would say). I agree that Linux is a apin in the butt from a windows point of background. The Linux partition thing still has me confused. Linux has a long way to go, even Linus says that it could take up to TEN years for it to become a great desktop computer.

Now what I have a problem with is you saying this:

I have been trying to install linux for over 4 years now. ... I have spent thousands and thousands of hours tring to get a linux on at least 5 different computers with non that work.

There are 24 hours in a day... 8 are spent asleep, 8 are usually spent at work or school, that leaves 8 to eat and watch TV and play with computers.

I am sure you don't spend all 8 trying to figure out Linux, but I will grant you 4 hours a day (THAT'S LOTS!) Now I know you don't do this every day all year so I will say that you have 4 out of the 7 days a week to play with Linux.

4x4x52=832 in one year. You said Thousands and Thousands of hours doing this, now if you can't figure out Linux in that amount of time... I don't know how you even learned how to get past the banana and the intertube!

[fingers99]

But a install of it is all but impossible to acomplish.

I've used Linux for 5 or 6 years: for the last year or so it has been my only OS.

In my experience there are 3 main reasons for Linux installs not to work:

1. Flakey or non-supported hardware. Run a memory test on your memory, send us a list of your hardware.

2. Incorrectly cabled and jumpered drives. Don't use "cable select", the outer connectors of IDE cables are for the master and mobo, the inner one is for the slave. Slave and master must be jumpered appropriately and for modern drives there are even more permutations -- it's always best to check with the manufacturer's website.

3. Set the bios to "bios defaults". In particular, set the bios to "non plug and play OS".

If all else fails, take your box to an install fest or a local LUG meeting. Above all, remember that all communities are likely to respond better to calls for help than to "your <whatever> is a pile of shite because......." rants.

[EmDee]

Now I'll tell my story here; I didn't really use computers at all until about y2k when I was an exchange student in Grand Isle, Maine, US. My host family over there had a AMD 400 with some buggy VIA chipset and way too little memory (64Mb IIRC), anyway, that thing was running windows 98 and was sooo slow, loaded with all kinds of crap programs, spyware and the harddrive filled to the roof... Damn, I really hated it, kept crashing on simple tasks like copying a file from CD-rom to hd!
I really enjoyed having unlimited access to the internet at that time, that's what kept me using that computer.
But as time passed by, I was so fed up with windows that I looked around for alternatives and quickly discovered BeOS; I spent an entire night downloading cause win98 doesn't make dialup any faster
Installed it, and, WOW, I was sold! Never crashed on me, had all the apps I needed at that time and very fast too. But then Be wen't out of business and third-party apps for BeOS were rather rare at that time so I ordered myself a copy of SuSe Linux 7.2 and an own computer (bx chipset.
All in all, I recall my first steps with linux rather painful; sure SuSE was easy to install and KDE 2.2 was easy to use but when things go wrong you had to ask for help...
And of course, while migrating from a windows 98 environment I had to learn a whole lot along the way; Linux is _not_ a drop-in replacement for windows and it probably never will be.
Finally I think it would be naive to think that one can achieve your "Linux dream" without doing some work for it, right?

[gowator]

First off I think Fingers99 sums it up,

Some hardware is just flaky.... other is designed specifically for MS and needs a lot of coaxing to actually load ANYTHING else. It's never impossible, my XBOX runs linux quite happily now.

Or perhaps you keep skipping over the same bit which you don't expect to work.


"How about you make an honest genuine effort to install Linux. Stick it out and don't get angry when something doesn't work the first time. I have yet to meet a machine that I cannot install Linux on. Sometimes it is a bitch but it can be done. "

You can't skip learning a few basics like partitions. Just becuase this is hidden awayin the MS world - the reason knoppix asks where is because it doesn't wanna hose your other OS's or data, even the winblows ones.

It would be nice to see what its all about.
Presuming your Cd is good and nothing got corrupted in that 12 hour download then it should just boot. You stick it in, reboot and presuming the cabling is set right on the CD drive and its set to boot from the Cd then it should just WORK. It did for me and many others.

If it doesn't then it can be fixed (almost certainly) BUT why not try it on another machine first and see what its all about.


"Every red hat linux i buy has bad cd's in it e-mail them they dont care. suse does not install. I just got a knoppix cd it just loads a picture and does nothing else. debian locks up. "
This sounds like YOUR CD !! Perhaps even antivirus setting in the bios???



Bad CD's do exist. I got a whole MDK 9.1 with bad CD's. I didn't even bother telling MDK, what would they care.... probably tell me to return them to a store.... BUT I just picked up a magazine with the download edition and it worked fine.

NOTHING is simpler to get up and running than knoppix from CD.

[Cuddles]

Mudwater,

First, if it doesn't work for you - don't use it - just stop trying. If you have "honestly" been trying to get Debian/Red Hat/Linux running for that long, and with no success - then just quit trying.

Second, considering the Knoppix.net Forums here - have you ever posted any help to try and help you get knoppix running? I can tell you, WinDoze will keep you on the phone for days, and MAYBE, you will get a human to help you - they, on the other hand, will simply tell you to reinstall WinDoze again - that IS the DEFAULT answer from any tech I knew in the Win95 Support Team. (yes, I worked for M$ as a Win95 Phone Tech Representative, when it first was launched, so I KNOW how they work). Knoppix.Net Forums here have the BEST-OF-THE-BEST people, taking on minor issues, all the way up to even "How do I get Knoppix to work with "THAT" OS?" - Would M$ "ever" do that? HELL NO! (pardon my language, a timid little girl here, with that kind of a mouth, where is the World coming too?)

Third, and this has to be the kicker - Go back to WinXP - go on - would it be any skin off my back? Nope. As an old saying goes: I Couldn't Care Less.

Fourth, and last, why post a negative post like that? Do you expect sympathy? Do you want pity? If it doesn't work for you, then just jot it down as "water under the bridge", and move on. Go back to M$ WinXP, or whatever OS you like, and use it. Take the CD's you burned, and fling them as far as you can, like a frisbee. Or make a mobile out of them, I do that with all the AOHELL CD's I get. ( heck, I almost have a whole wall of AOL Cd's now ) (yuck, puke, I prefer Mozilla thank you very much)

If you want help, if you want assistance, then ask - lots of people here are "always" waiting to help anyone who asks for it (even myself). But to b*tch about it, doesn't help you, doesn't help me, doesn't achieve anything. As everyone here has already said, you are getting replies, and I am sure, that if your post was "phased" in the form of "can you help me?", instead of "Linux is a piece of cr*p!" - they would have replied with answers for you

One final note: your post "screams" at me, saying "All I want to do is banter, and take as much of the FORUMS bandwidth as I can, to do nothing." -=- I hope I am wrong on this, but, people used to go into MACINTOSH newsgroups and post something like "PC'S RULE!", and never be heard of again - or post something like "MAC'S RULE!" in a PC newsgroup, and never be heard of again - the result - signal to noise ratio in the newsgroup would skyrocket on the topic for months after. Not a few days after the newsgroup would begin to return to normal, another an*s would do it again. You want help? Or are you just screaming the same thing? Mudwater? Why are you saying all this here? Would you like to have some assistance in getting that "dieing" Linux running? You aren't saying that. What you are saying is, you want to get away from WinXP, probably, though you aren't saying it, you hate it, it has all the bugs and problems that everyone here is saying, and you know it - and you WANT to get something else working - possibly why you have "tried" to get Linux running for so long. MAYBE your next post should be in the FORM OF A QUESTION, like: "I am having problems with installing/running "XXXXXXXXXX", can someone "help" me?" -=- As an old wise person once said: You'll catch more flys with honey, than vinigar.

Enuf Said,
Cuddles
[We now return your to your original bandwidth, already in progress]

[oldgeezer]

The integrity of the CD is paramount, as indicated above. For folk with DUN and possibly unreliable ISO files, the simple, cheap method for obtaining a tried and tested distro is to buy it from linuxemporium.co.uk (linuxiso.org in the USA). Just a few pounds/dollars and guaranteed tested.
Otherwise, yes, it is a long and tortuous route. The review by Cassia [http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12960] of SuSE9 adequately summarised the entire Linux scenario. But things are getting better.......
OG.