rant from hopelessly newbie

[homer]

Just to throw in my 2 cents. I'm a particularly wet-behind-the-ears newbie although I've been following Linux in general, on and off, for a good few years.

I've always stuck with Windows up until recently because although programming for the Windows GUI has always beaten me

- There is enough of a user base to make amateur programming for the OS a valid proposition.. if you can actually figure out how to do it & not be forever stuck in DOS-land

- You put in a CD, answer a few simple questions, and with virtually no technical knowledge can have a fully working computer up and running pretty quickly without any real worry of exploding your monitor

- The default install looks nice, and is pretty intuitive even for a fairly inexperienced user

- It'll read & let you modify all the major file formats without much impediment

- It just works. no big deal. Want to write a letter? Print it? Browse the web? Check your email? All straightforward straightaway. No having to know anything about the command line, or the 'line noise made functional' approach to computing





Hey, hang on. I appear to have just described Knoppix. Oh, sorry, missed a Knoppix-only bullet point, the cost..

My belief is that a line has now been crossed & the major sticking blocks to a mass-takeup of Linux have been removed. Part of my business involves fixing people's computers, I'm leaving a Knoppix CD for all Windows users for them to play with now.. my little contribution to 'spreading the word'.

I just worry a little still over the leverage Microsoft has over the hardware manufacturers.. last time I looked, fritz / palladium / NGSCB / longhorn seemed to be leading the way in hobbling the effective PC hardware 'standard', tying it to Microsoft and wrong-footing Linux. What's the latest on that issue?

[Cuddles]

You know Homer, you make some very interesting points...

I got into programming for a NEED, that need was something that was lacking in the OS...

In DOS, it was lacking in utilities, in the early DOS versions, no multiple file copy existed, nor any variation of moving files - in most cases, a move required a copy/compare, and then delete - I am quite sure MANY people created batch files to perform a two command function, and named it move.bat -=- I began programming for DOS at that time, and had as many as 150 utility programs, that, I found, were lacking in the DOS command structure...

When Win3.x came out - same thing... (well, considering that this "OS" was actually a program running under DOS, it didn't "fix" many of the lacking issues that were in DOS), and, I again, began to start programming for "Windows"... The need was evident...

When I moved up to Win95, and then Win98, the need was less, it was actually a "true" OS then, but I had found "still" a need for making programs for the use of utilities. Some of them were "back-end" programs, some "front-end", and some were, again, utilities that I found lacking in the operating system structure...

I am not sure if these issues have been fixed, or "band-aide'd" in the newer versions of Windows, nor do I care, I have "evolved" farther than using Windows... I am learning how to do things a "new" way, and for that matter, I do not feel that I have taken any steps "backwards" for it. Linux is different, but not as different as when I first installed DOS, or Win3.x, or Win95, or even Win98. Some things require a "slight" retinking, or re-education, or in the case of someone moving from Windows to Linux, a little learning curve.

The biggest thing I think of is that I don't really see a "need" to program in Linux, it seems to have everything already, no utilities, front-ends, back-ends, nothing... When I made the step to Linux/Knoppix, I think I put myself out of business, unless I want to get a job "fixing" Windows systems, or writting programs/utilities for Windows still. True, I still have a "small" Win98 install, but that is only for Wine support, not as a operating system.

From the first time I saw Knoppix running off the CD, I knew something was going to change, and I think, it was me... I am sooo "into" Linux now, I can't even think about how I did things when I was in Windows, and, as a side effect, I have become a lover of Tux, and the penguin.

I was talking with someone yesterday about the whole Linux/Windows issues, and we kept going back and forth, on what this did, that did, this does this better, this does that better, and so on. What we finally come down to, was, logo's [giggle]

Windows has the "Flying Window" logo, and Linux, has the penguin, Tux -=- for me, I never liked the logo Windows decided on, it sounded, so unimaginative. I think of a room full of Microsoft Execs, bashing around the idea of "What is our logo going to be?" -=- When some dim-wit suggests: "Well, since its a windows OS, why not a Window Logo?" - oh, sure, the logo has gotten more "colorful" over the years, but who can get "excited" about an inatimate, non-personal, non-anaimated, window? I always felt the "lamest: screen saver in Windows was its "rip-off" of "flying through space" using the "Flying Window" logo... sheesh....

Now, Linux, now we're talking... An animated, cute looking, penguin. Something everyone can look at, and enjoy seeing. You can get all kinds of animated games with "Tux" as the character, try that one Microsoft with your Windows Logo

If I was Microsoft, I'd change my logo, maybe something like "M$", but then again, how do you animate a logo like this either? Microsoft used to have a nice saying: "Where would you like to go to today?" - cute, catchy, but, as far as I know, they haven't reused it, nor have they settled on a new saying. Maybe, Microsoft can start to change there image, and a new saying, to reflect what they "truely" are doing... Something like: M$ - How much do you want to spend today? -=- Or, Buy Microsoft, Buy a bigger hard drive, Buy a faster computer, and just maybe, we might run...

I got tired of M$, just about the time I realized that "other" operating systems exist, and can run faster, and more stable than what I either had from Microsoft, or they had to offer. Each year M$ releases, yet another, operating system, or Office product, or Development software, and more and more computer systems are landing in the garbage dump for it. Each time they release something new, something else gets dropped from the "supported" list. I am sorry Mr. Gates, but I don't have the same checkbook, or pocketbook, as you do, I can't keep "affording" to buy something new each year to be supported by something new I just bought from you... I am getting too old to keep up with the "Jones'", and even though our society has turned into a "throw away" society, I can't live with the idea that last years models don't still have value, or use.

With your thinking Mr. Gates, our landfills will be full in no time, I'm not going to "play" your game, and, as I have found, many operating systems are "swooping" in to take the "garbage dump" systems that you choose to have thrown away. Linux is just as happy as a "fly on dog-do" to run on last years models, and even earlier stuff too. If Microsoft doesn't watch it, they will loose people who refuse to keep buying more "newer" stuff that has become outdated because "you" say so, and Linux will be standing behind you, catching the "reasonable" people, you leave behind.

Just my thoughts, again,
Cuddles

[homer]

I wonder about Tux sometimes. I've read some negative views from the Microsoft-supporting camp, along the lines of his projecting an 'unprofessional' and 'amateurish' image. I must admit in my days of fighting with Slackware '96 on an AST Ascentia J laptop, (nightmarish memories of manually setting up the X server here), I began to associate the cute little feller with frustration & hours spent achieving only small successes which ultimately didn't lead to a system capable of matching the utility of my Windows machine. He kinda stopped being so cute in my eyes and began to take on a slightly sinister aura!

Could there be a lot of people out there who see him on a CD cover or splash screen, remember past bad experiences, and run screaming back to the comforting arms of Billy G? Just a thought.

I at least, ever the optimist, seem to be rewarded for overriding the slight shiver of fear induced by The Penguin - didn't let him stop me popping Knoppix in the CD a few days ago. Well this time I feel rather more friendly-disposed towards him!

Programming wise, it's not particularily that I would want or be likely to spend hours hacking away at home-made utilities to the same extent as I once did, but what *is* important to me is that the operating system would let me, or other more capable developers, if the desire did exist, without needless obfuscation and taxation. Good feeling to know you can get into the guts if you need to. Or to know that other small developers are still in with a chance here.

Oh my god, I've just discovered 'Ethereal'. I'm sat here watching my windows computers send texties to each other on the network & I even understand a word or two.. Absolutely incredible. Far cry from the XP 'network setup wizard' hehehe.. I get it.. I'm Knoppix.workgroup.net.. this system's got to be a better way of doing things, it tells you what it's doing!!! Linux talking to XP on a vanilla install by a greenhorn.. excellent. What happens if I let my firewalls down on the XP machine, do I get to see the footprints of shadowy net-borne things with horns trying to attack it?

Sorry, went 'on one' for a bit there lol. Knoppix is having a strange and exciting effect on me.

Just enabled myself as root in Konsole, set up lisa and messed around for a short while in xSMBrowser - read a couple of posts in the networking section for a helping hand.. god knows if I was doing things right but within 5 minutes I'm browsing the network & seeing hidden things I've never seen before in Ms 'network neighborhood', ADMIN$ ??, C$ ?? - even created a text file on server.workgroup.net & dragged it across to Knoppix.workgroup.net & saved it.. sorry, probably basic stuff to most of you but to me that's a major buzz!

This isn't merely 'as good' as Windows. From a techy point of view it's surpassing it.. & if I can figure it out anyone can.. godspeed to Linux sorry to prattle on but you guys have just witnessed yet another conversion

[nishtya]

welcome, Homer

and why, may any of you ask am I posting here with 'doze? Because Billyboy pulled a fast one on me tonight. Damn him Came home ready to do battle with a fresh kernel and lm-sensors (don't ask) but needed to boot into doze to grab some stuff for work that is sadly, not linuxable. While I was at it in dozeland I decided to pop in a music CD since also sadly, audio CD playing has been hit&miss on me in knoppix/debian. Anyhow, it fires up wmp. Now I am firewalled three ways to China (mostly OUTbound) and do not allow any of my players to access internet without asking nicely first and slapped back into submission (and I usually say NO just "because I told you so" :P ). Anyhow, being distracted wanting to get back into my linux I absent- mindedly hit yes and let the damned thing connect to the internet (it had no business there-aaaaaaargh). Next thing I know I have a dialog pop in my face that comctl and other windows undies have been updated whether I liked it or not and I better reboot or windows maybe won't work. My dozeness is tweaked to perfection after years of perfecting tweakedness and I really hate it when that happens. So I am trying out as much as I can tonight to see what it broke.

Point of this story? This is why I keep hammering away at learning Linux. Years and years in IT and mslavedom, I am still running 98 because damnit, this is my computer, the OS bought and paid for BTW and I will do what I want when I want on it, not what billy tells me that I need. Oops, ranting again.

Have to get back to playing with some of my hardearned doze goodies and seeing that they haven't suffered at the hands of some updaterapist. I know some of them will break with a "new" comctl and friends - they are oldies but goodies, darned this has ticked me off.

[Durand Hicks]

I cringe nowadays when I have to boot into windows. I hate software phoning home, and microsoft has put all kinds of hooks into their software so that it phones home, be it windows, media player, update service, (a huge bunch of services running in the background). If you have a firewall that traces packets, you'll find them phoning home whether you will or no. I've hunted and killed most if not all of those programs' ability to do that, but m$ still keeps trying to add them back by way of updates. Here in linux, I don't have to worry about that. I get the updates on my own time and none of my apps phone home. That makes me feel much more like I have control instead of joe blow company. I do feel that linux has a way to go to be really user friendly, it feels somewhat like the good old days of basic/dos. Not that I'm complaining, it actually feels liberating. In windows, i get the sense that ms wants their os to do the work for you their way, (I despise those wizards). More and more, windows takes away your ability to get things done your way, and I end up fighting to restore that ability (xp fisher price interface anyone?). In the days of dos, I wrote a lot of batch files to get the computer to do what I wanted. I could even multitask to a degree in dos, i.e thru norton commander, midnight commander in linux is eerily similar. For newbies in general, perhaps linux could use a few more gui frontends to the console commands that I've grown to love. Not everybody likes typing arcane commands, and then again not everybody likes using a mouse. For now though, I think it's a fair tradeoff, and I'm glad I'm learning linux now. I used to hear about linux and be very afraid to jump in, I actually tried twice with FreeBSD, and failed to get the x-server going both times. Knoppix changed all that. Pop in the cd, and I was blown away, and ensnared line, hook and sinker. And it was free! Did I mention it cost me only 1/2 hr to download, 2 mins to burn to a 50 cent blank cd? Windows xp pro cost what, $299? Office costs what $399? Knoppix with an os and open office cost what, a measly 50 cent cd and a litte time to download (and some coffee)? I'll never buy windows again.

[homer]

Knoppix couldn't have come at a worse time for ms, what with them scaring the pants off everyone over embedded DRM. I'll be following Longhorn's sales graph with interest.

[nishtya]

Hi Durand I have been firewalling and spyware hunting for so long in doze that it became a way of life. I don't mind paying for what has to be paid for - hey, I am probably one of the few people with a winzip license but once I pay for it, it's mine and it's supposed to do what I want. And ONLY what I want. I don't want to have to comb through eulas looking for the "trap" and keeping it tied down with zonealarm so it won't send off my cc info, mother's maiden name and what I had for dinner last tonight to the mothership . I have a terrific collection of windows freeware and paid for shareware so I didn't get much trouble from them in phoning home but it was windows and and the XP activation scheme that turned me off windows forever. I purchased a terrific program called GLIDE for running old games and it was worth every penny. But, it's activation is based on a generated key from hardware and every time I swap something among my boxen, I have to reactivate. I decided that would be too much of bloody nuisance in an OS and stopped at 98SE. Took a look at linux ages ago and though the CLI didn't bother me at all, hardware support, or lack of it, did. So I have been basically frozen in time as far as OS growth at home.

Then I tried Lindows. Don't laugh. I saw after a few days it wasn't the distro for me but it got me back on the Linux kick as I saw it could support my medium age hardware with no problem. I dl'd and hdinstalled Knoppix and have been at it a few months now. The GUI is nice, but it is more the hardware detection and apt-get that drew me in. I don't know whether prettier frontends or eye candy are the answer. A lot of the barely computer literate people I know can hardly manage proper mouse clicking so pretty molded buttons will still be clicked 15 times You do need more intuitive install scripts and easier methods of installing applications (like CNR and Klik) to draw in some more to the fold, maybe. A front end is a nicety, but even in windows apps I have had to get under it for some configuring - I often edited ini's and such when I couldn't get at the problem through the frontend.

So, I am determined to learn linux whether it be through Knoppix or some other distro. It's just a steep learning curve and I have little time. But Linux is for me and I never have to worry about it phoning home, sending the family jewels to Linus or connecting to the internet to get my email and having Klaus swap out a few vital OS components to bork my installation

[Cuddles]

Nish,

I too, had the same firewall software, and even ran "dedicatedly" SpyBot for a few years now - constantly killing off "cookies" and "adware" from my Internet Explorer install...

Had a big bout when the "significant other" clicked on a download, and it threw one of those "nasty" click bars into IE - had a dickens of a time ripping it out -=- nothing worse than booting your Windows, and instantly it wants to connect to the internet - when NOTHING is running - so, I KNEW something was wrong...

I also hate REAL ONE PLAYER - nothing worse than a "support" program "assuming" that it should be the ONLY program to load WAV files... Excuse Me But Real One is bloated, takes minutes to load, and ISNT the best program to use for certain situations, like checking small "sound effects" WAV files - I prefer "Sound Recorder" for that one, so, I am CONSTANTLY trying to keep Real One from taking "control" of the WAV associations away from Sound Recorder, which requires TWO registry hacks...

Having Win98, used to, now only have it for Wine support, but, I degress, I have dealt with the Windows Updater, and the Internet Explorer Updater for years, and the consistant battle of what "they" feel I need, and don't... Windows is about as unstable as a UNI-POD human being as it is, and then, add into this these UPDATERS - sheesh - lets not even get into the viri attacks, mail, internet, document, and OS, or the adware installs, dialers, and the click bars that infest IE, can we say pain in the rump???

Win98 is all I have, I "bought" DOS, from 1.12 up to 6.2, Win3.1, Win95, and even Win98 - but I REFUSE to buy any new OS from M$ (note the MANDATORY dollar sign) - what is it with Microsoft, they are like a fattened King, all they want is MORE, and MORE, and MORE... Not MY money, no more... As for "knowing" what goes on "under the hood" - no clue when it comes to a "Windows" OS, heck, for all I know, the string "BILL GATES IS GOD, BOW DOWN TO HIM!" may be intertwinded billions of times within the source, or as a corolary, for as many dollar bills that Gates has, may be how many times the above string appears... Who knows? I DO know that Windows does keep many files "hidden" from ever being seen, and these files DO contain every SEARCH you have EVER done in IE, and contains every EMAIL message, intact, that you ever sent or received. (don't look for it, it hides itself, since the OS is aware of this file being HIDDEN, it will never display it in any listing, or boot, from within Windows, or DOS, not quite sure, but I think, if you can find it on the disk (somewhere) you might be able to see it, and view it, from another OS (like Knoppix, or Linux) ?????

Anyway, you want to know whats "under the hood" in Knoppix, or Linux? Just look at the source - its even given to you - freely... Don't like something, just "cut" it out, and compile. That is, by far, more "open" than Windows, and a lot more "accountable" than Windows...

IE, even, doesn't have the "bullet-proof" ness as Mozilla does, you can "lock-down" Mozilla to the point "nothing" gets loaded, viewed, or downloaded to your system - IE can't even get "cookies" under control... Try to delete cookies and files from within Internet Explorer, and even though it SAYS it did it, go to the folder it uses to store this stuff, and SURPRISE - files and cookies STILL exist - yeah right, M$, you deleted them, yeah, sure...

Take this "simple" problem with Internet Explorer, and expand it into a OS view, whos to say the same thing isn't going on??? You delete this file, like deleting a download file in your Internet Explorer, did it REALLY delete the file from your system, or did it just PRETEND to??? Who knows? Worse yet, you don't have a way to know either...

When I boot my system, I know what is loading, I know what is running, and I know, what it should be doing - in Windows - it could have programs hidden from view, which cause "unpredictable" things to start, stop, connect, or save data or files to who knows where... In Knoppix, I know, I can see it, I have "control" over it, and "I" alone... Not Mr. Gates, not M$, not any program "I ever installed", no one, just me...

As you said, Durand, "phoning home" is only half the battle, its inherintly in the Operating System to do whatever it wants to, and in many ways, you are powerless to do anything about it, unless you kill something, delete something, which, somehow, causes the complete Operating System to fail, not a nice option of "control", I think.

This "one" click bar in Internet Explorer was just this same way... I ran SpyBot, it found it, and upon removing it, the dialer was still active, and the system wouldn't boot - I force removed the registry entry, and upon reboot, the dialer placed itself back in - I removed it again, and STILL it was active in Internet Explorer - I removed it from starting in the IE applets, and it still thinks it is on the system, sheesh, about the only thing I figured would resolve the issue was a complete "Gut and reinstall" of the OS - not exactly what I call "user control" here... I finally, after numerous "deletes" and reboots, finally got the durn thing OFF and not running...

I like, like you said Durand, Knoppix/Linux, for the fact I control what goes ON and OFF my system, I control what runs and doesn't run on MY system, I control MY system, because it is MINE. Not M$, not Bill Gates, no one but me, owns my system, and what I do with it is my business, and what I choose to use to do what is my business, is, again, my business, period.

I lived with the "issues" of M$, and its OS, for far too many years, living with all its "issues" blindly figuring I had too, not any more. Mr. Gates can take his OS, and IE, and VC++, and VB, and Office, and put it where, I think, most of his money is going - right up where the sun don't shine Cause he AIN'T gettin any more of my money for the above stuff - if he wants me to spend it on mice, or keyboards, then fine, those can stay, at least until Logitec can beat his pants off with there own products, but his software is "more for the rich" than for the poor, and the rich buying his software, are soon to become the poor, with his prices...

As you said Durand, his OS prices, his Office prices, and you forgot, if you want to develop and software, around $399 for VB, not sure, but I think VC++ is going for round the same as well - $399 just to develop programs who has that kind of money? Corporations, thats all, the little person doesn't have that kind of moola to squander. Linux/Knoppix comes with development software "standard" and included, and if you want something else to use, just search for it, it probably already is a package waiting to "apt-get install" - free...

Mr. Gates, and M$ for that matter, have become "gluttons" for money, and I think, Knoppix, and Linux, and all its flavors, are just what the world of "common" people need, something that isn't so much interested in "MONEY" but in the product quality, and that it does what it says, and doesn't go behind your back doing things it shouldn't...

[rant off]
Cuddles

[j.drake]

Cuddles,

Let's put things into perspective. Sure, $100-$500 is a lot of money compared to available open source alternatives, but compared to enterprise software, proprietary OSes (e.g. UNIX from IBM, Sun, HP), and even fairly ubiquitous enterprise-level software (e.g., JD Edwards, Oracle, etc.), MS is a dadgum bargain, and cheap software wouldn't be here if MS hadn't helped to enable the PC revolution (if it weren't for that, we'd all still be begging administrators to let us timeshare mainframes, and paying through the nose for the privilege). So before you rant too long about MS's greed, look where we started out, where MS put us, and consider how many open source apps would exist if: (1) the PC revolution had never started., and (2) if they didn't have some pre-existing PC or Mac software that they were trying to emulate. Those fees pay for the development of the apps that the folks on sourceforge are trying to emulate in open source. Also, consider that XP is pretty dadgum stable, and that the security issues that everyone criticizes them for arose primarily because we all wanted the autonomy and flexibility of administering our own personal computers. It's pretty easy to love linux when you're the root, and you can do whatever you want to your own computer. But when it's someone else who locks down everything other than what they think you "need", sometimes it's worth giving up a little security for the sake of flexibility and autonomy.

That having been said, I share your frustrations with MS, and agree that it's too expensive given the alternatives. But open source just isn't ready yet to force MS off of its perch. Hopefully, it will be soon, but not yet. I'm not a big fan on MS (hey, I'm here, right?), but sometimes the other side needs to be considered tool.

[homer]

The only reason I feel the need to keep up to speed with Microsoft gear these days is because part of my business involves programming telephone systems.

The phone system manufacturers, Panasonic, Siemens et al. pretty much only provide programming tools for those systems via the latest version of whatever ms happen to be offering at the time. They like the lock-down attitude as it means they can restrict configuration access to their own 'approved' installers, after extracting a good few hundreds of pounds each quarter for the 'update training course' and 'updated manual for version xyz'

Trouble is, many companies I've worked for in the past have taken the attitude that if they've 'employed a bloody engineer' 'for god's sake', why should they then have to spend more money on such a regular basis for their training.. there's an attitude amongst (technically clueless) management in some quarters that these repeated courses and updates are really just an excuse for engineers to go on a junket and get some skive off work at the companies' expense. Management's priority is so often maximising profit, cutting costs, rather than providing a technically competent service. And so, the situation evolves that joe engineer is refused many training courses under the ethos that 'we've only just sent you on the bloody KXTD course for heavens sake'..

In a perfect world every company would realise that their engineers need the right tools to do the job correctly - but we simply don't live in a perfect world.

What do these engineers then do? They swap manuals and programming tools. On site, over the Internet, in the pub.. whatever.. it's the only way to continue in their jobs. If they are prevented from doing so, the customer takes the flak. The engineer turns up, can't connect to the system, or can't connect correctly because he is using tool version 2 when he should be using tool version 6 etc.. does a cock-eyed job and sods off home, hoping 'it'll be allright'. Couple of months later everyone realises some kind of misconfiguration has added a couple of thousand quid to the 'phone bill..

It's thus my belief that at the sharp end, the closed nature of Windows and the forthcoming lockdown of information under DRM in that OS can only lead to problems in society - behind every system there's a configuration engineer who may well be employed by a company exhibiting this kind of mentality. Expect more cock-ups at the checkout till, at the bank teller, and worse..

These problems would be far less I believe if Microsoft were to charge reasonably and desist from integrating draconian information control systems into their software. It's the exhorbitant cost that makes many feel ripped-off, not the simple fact that they are charged. Witness a young lady student for whom I set up a computer recently. She is anything but rich. She didn't mind paying the going rate for the hardware, even took the cost of XP in her stride.. but she blew a gasket at the cost of ms office which is mandatory for her course (OO would not do). I'm making damn sure she's aware of Knoppix / Debian / Linux software alternatives so that when she finally completes her course and goes into full time employment, maybe she'll help spread the word a little..