Why Knoppix 3.4 is delayed again ...

Hi,

I'm just back from vacation and want to inform you, why Knoppix is not out already:

1. We are over with 65 MB (KDE 3.2.1 is big!). So we need to delete some stuff, but what? (Proposals can be written based on last edition of 3.3 as programs almost remain the same, but get bigger ... :-/ )

2. The Debian-Menu is integrated into the K-Menu as an Submenu, which is not very nice. for KDE 3.1 we had an script to automatically integrate the "Debian-Programs" into the KDE K-Menu.

Klaus already asked on debian-knoppix mailinglist:

http://mailman.linuxtag.org/pipermai...il/004953.html

But no one did answer. I'll try to make it work, but any help is appreciated.

3. You surely want to have the newest Kernel 2.6.5 and OpenOffice 1.1.1?

cu

Fabian

PS: Thats what _I_ know a the moment ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fabianx

You surely want to have the newest Kernel 2.6.5 and OpenOffice 1.1.1?

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Yep, what about removing Koffice (Kword, Kexcel ...)? Since OO gives you much more options, what is the point to keep them both?
I vote for removing Koffice!

aleu[/quote]

Thanks, Fabian. I've never anticipated a Knoppix release so much as this.

As for item #3, absolutely - must have new kernel and OOffice.

As for the other issues, it's time to go to DVD. It really is. It's overdue. The old excuse about the affordability of DVD burners just doesn't hold water anymore - they can be had for under $70 now in multiple formats. So many people have been asking for it, and the only dissenting voice I've heard is Klaus's. They are way cheaper now than CD burners were when Knoppix was launched. Besides, you can buy a preburned DVD and DVD player for less than it costs to ship them. And, if anyone really wants a CD - hey, leave version 3.3 on the mirrors indefinitely - it's great for that purpose.

OK, everyone start chanting with me so that Klaus himself can hear us . . . .

WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!!
WE WANT DVD!!!! :wink:

The CD format is very handy for virus scanning/recovery work on unknown PCs. Every PC has a CD reader, but not always a DVD reader, Knoppix has saved my day too many times on CD...

If you have a CD you can always do a HD install and apt-get any apps you need... I am also in favour of kicking out KOffice, but please keep kstars... I really use it to plot the night sky in our observatory here... :wink:

See you on the bitstream, Alain

my vote is to remove koffice and add dvd+rw-tool, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ .
perhaps remove a few windowmanagers? twm, iceswm and kde should suffice for most things (i know i know, the others will be missed by me aswell).
oh, and KEEP THE CD FORMAT. i have a dvdburner but...

I would change Mozilla for another lighter browser.

Another way to save space would be to make 2 or 3 different versions depending on the supported languages. For example: If you dowload the english version, you don't need all the german stuff (otherwise you would have downloaded the german version).

I propose:
1 version with: English, German, French, Spanish ...
another one with: Japaneese, Turkish, .....
another one with: ...., ...., .....

Regards.

Víctor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by valonso

Another way to save space would be to make 2 or 3 different versions depending on the supported languages. For example: If you dowload the english version, you don't need all the german stuff (otherwise you would have downloaded the german version).

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I guess maintaining several localised versions would mean a lot of extra work with every release, to prepare the CD's, upload them, take their MD5... But maybe it could be possible to adopt something like morphix's on-the-fly deb installation? If only in a limited way, namely for the KDE big i18n packages. With a base version supporting DE+EN, and such a mechanism clearly documented, it could be up to the national LUGs to prepare and provide localised builds...

Oh, and please stick to the CD format unless the aim is to turn knoppix into a geek toy instead of a broadly usable demo and rescue system. Also keep Mozilla (composer is useful, mail spam protection is decent out of the box), possibly providing a few additional themes to refresh its looks (eg orbit3+1, pinball). If at all possible, retain KOffice, if only to provide its developers with more feedback (plus, think of this: what happens when Sun can't afford to support OOo anymore?)

Hello team,
Fabian, thank you for posting this!

In my humble opinion, CD should remain the common format just a while longer. Perhaps the 800MB high capacity CDs but still - CD. DVDs don't even have a single standard yet, whereas few if any PCs have no CD-ROM.

1. KOffice should deffinetely be out to save some space
Perhaps some of the EDUTAINMENT & GAME items should also go?

2. I cannot comment on something I don't quite understand

3. Newest kernel + latest OOo - now that would be just superb. As long as it is feasible, of course.

Good luck team,
Smith

Fabian,

You just don't know how many people i've shown Knoppix to (and handed out cds for them to try out), Knoppix has certainly done an extraordinary amount to promote linux amongst those that were under the impression that the only alternative to windows is the mac.

You guys have done a fabulous job, and, like everybody on this forum, I'm eagerly awaiting the v3.4

What to leave out? Well, the suggestions made so far are very fair, basically whether we need two Office suites.

Duplication in languages is also probably not necessary (what? you mean that not everyone understands german?;)

And a dvd format or possibly a 2CD format could also be a solution (using a poor man's HD install).

Many thanks once again...

I vote 4 new kernel and openoffice too. Koffice removed and all the games because who play with those games?? A precompiled driver for nvidia cards would be a good idea.
And... since 3.3 i cant tuned my tv-card (bt848) using the same configuration :(
Thanks 4 all !

OK I know I am a knewbie <- get it? Ummm anyway, I agree that koffice is usless, I use Open Office on my Windows machine. It is what most people seem to use.

I also think Firefox and Thunderbird should replace Mozilla, Mozilla seems to be falling behind in the polls.

I don't think a DVD writer is needed in a CD-Rom version of Knoppix, cause who would use it?! It seems so weird.

Keep the games, that is what newbies will go to first. I know that some of you don't care for games, but knoppix is like the messiah of Linux. I think most converts come to know Linux through Knoppix. Therefore, games will keep them logged on for that much longer.

I think anything that makes linux easy to use or tutorials on what linux is, should be kept or added to knoppix. I myself have been learning about Linux only because I loaded a Knoppix disk. I almost gave up after my first three install failures of Linux. Knoppix was the only one that I could get to work.

So, anyone that feels the need to burn me... Here is your chance. Just know that I still stand behind what I have said.

I agree, KOffice can be removed.

I would also like to have Firefox and Thunderbird instead of Mozilla. But they take more space than Mozilla does so it might be hard to do that.

Personally I don't care about games.

Are you planning on including both 2.4 and 2.6 kernel? In that case, why? Isn't 2.6 good enough? I would remove 2.4.

I think KDE and one lightweight windowmanager is enough.


I have no DVD burner, please continue to distribute knoppix on CD!

/Henrik Larsson

I agree about Koffice, it can go away...just about EVERYONE is using OpenOffice now as the best suite for that stuff. What about pairing down on some of the games? I know that a lot of them come bundled together, but I'm sure that klaus can figure out a way to strip some out.

I have been using the 2.6.5 kernel now for a grand total of 1 hour on a Fedora Test machine...the latest and greates should be in there. But ALL of the applications are getting bigger as they also get better.

65MB, huh? Hmmm...a lot of stuff in there, you know? This IS a tough one.

I would do the DVD also, however, the CD format should be around for a long time as per the reasons stated by others above.

It would be interesting to find out what is actually ignored in the distibution...stuff that is hardly EVER used....like a survey or something to help in the decision, however that probably would take too long...

Just thinking out loud....

I would take a survey, I am sure most would. I think that to delay the next release to do a survey would drive everyone mad, but maybe do one for the release after that?

Hi

I agree on saying goodbye to KOffice... maybe some games... i18n stuff is a really tough one.

BTW, it's a good idea to have a DVD version in addition to the CD.

Cheers...

Fabian,

I agree with removing Koffice and reducing the number of window managers. I think that removing some of the games is also fine.

What about releasing what you have now (65 MB to large) for a DVD only "test" version to hold the masses at bay until you finish trimming down the CD version?

#!/usr/bin/PERLWIZ

Please don't remove the games. I see Knoppix fullfilling a many roles. One of the those roles is it's ability to show the Windows user that there are viable open source alternatives. My wife found the games 30 seconds after booting the disk. That experiance alone can convince someone that Linux is not "just for hackers and geeks". I don't play the games but, don't underestimate the value that they can have initially/instantly.

Knoppix should stay CD based as long as possible. Many people are using Knoppix on laptops that are not easily upgradeable to DVD.

I'm pretty new to Linux, and Knoppix was what finally convinced me to to dedicate a partition to Linux (HD Install).

I agree that K-Office can go. Also I don't really need JPilot or KPilot. Also there seems to be an excess of Text editors.

The best part about Knoppix for me is that if I screw up too many settings, I can easily and quickly reinstall the whole thing again, so for that I'd prefer to stick with a CD instead of a bloated DVD.


JMHO

Robert

It is one of the fantastic things about Linux that we have so many different WM/Desktop Environments to choose from. I'm working on a project using Knoppix to bring computer use to poorer countries, and one of the things I need to do is to provide stripped down desktops for the sake of simplicity/ease of use/language barriers. We cannot train people to use complex desktops from the beginning. I have found Window Maker to be the easiest to simplify. Also, please keep the terminal server in there - it is vital for us.

I would suggest removing a) _some_ games (I'm no gamer, but I can imagine they might be useful to some people) b) removing Koffice.

Perhaps better to stay with Mozilla until Thunderbird/Firebird are more established - and another way is found to free up space.

Knoppix is great, and is making our project possible. We also hope to raise funds, and will look to plough some of that back into Knoppix.

Kick Koffice.
Stick to one browser. Nobody uses Konqueror for web surfing.
Chop out some of the games. Stick to the Solitaire/Minesweepers. While forzen bubble and Nethack are good, if people really want them, they can get them elsewhere.
How many disk partitioning softwares do we need? fdisk, cfdisk, Qtparted..... I mainly use fdisk. Qtparted is a bit bloated.
Chop out some of the Xtools.... but keep the calculator of course!
Do we really need all four shells? Stick to bash!
Bochs and wine..... hmmm. Wine is essential, bochs is not.
Who really uses all the development tools? Keep emacs of course.

And for goodness sakes, will someone put a configurable firewall script in Knoppix for the HD installers? I'm thinking about arno's iptables.... it's small and powerful.

First I'd like to agree about koffice. I also agree about removing mozilla since Firefox loads a lot faster from the cd. Its odd though, firefox is supposed to be a lot lighted but when you apt-get it it seems to take up quite a bit of room, so I don't know. I would definately get rid of tetex since it takes lots of room and probobally most people don't have much of a use for it on a cd. On my remaster I got rid of some of the cad and drawing programs. If you wanted to make a few different versions for different regions you could save a lot of space getting rid of extra language support but you probobally won't like that idea. I'd get rid of some of the excess text editors too (and to be counterproductive, install the pico clone nano)

In defence of Kword etc, sure in KDE 3.1 it wasn't that good, but I am using the new version, and it's improved greatly. It can read/write MS word files and I think it would be a shame to remove it. I vote to remove some of the less used programs such as say gnumeric and maybe the kde games.. also maybe some of the hard out development tools such as kdgb.. if developers need them they will know how to download them

Has there been any consideration of modifying cloop to use a better compression algorithm such as bzip2/libzip2 or 7zip?

It would certainly alleviate some of the space concern at the cost of speed.

What a great tribute to the Open Source software movement. People are FIGHTING over what they want! I think that says a lot for how far things have come from just a couple of years ago. Koffice HAS gotten MUCh better than before. I mean..there is ABIWORD also for Word processing...nice. Look at all of the choice!

This is what make this whole thing so great. Knoppix is ALSO THE REASON that I am running Linux over 95% of the time and only reluctantly do I go the other 5% because of "one" thing at work. Some want to keep the games...that's great too!

This is what makes this whole thing so wonderful.

Keep the GIMP!

Guys!

Why should we keep OO along with Koffice and Abiword? Since most of us agree that OO is a must, let's remove Abiword and Koffice. This will save us lots of space. I agree with one of you who mentioned that there are too many text editiors such as Kate, Kwrite and many more. I propose to remove most of the games keeping Frozen bubble and adding Rocks and Diamonds for example (my favorite). What else?
Lets remove Apache :-) just kidding.

Seriously, chromium takes lots of space and requires stronger graphics card...
Next, languages - OK I understand that Knoppix has to be universal, but keeping all these languages (tr, nl, ja, da...)? Well, I am not trying to discriminate anyone but lets keep the most popular languages (Oh yes, I heard you - which one are the most popular...?)
Konqueror is a must (please do not remove it!)

Well, that's all I wanted to say. What do you think? (Please do not hit me!)
Fabianx - how much space would this give you?

Thnx

Save 30MB in a stroke by removing Mozilla and replacing it with Opera 7.50!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eadz

In defence of Kword etc, sure in KDE 3.1 it wasn't that good, but I am using the new version, and it's improved greatly. It can read/write MS word files and I think it would be a shame to remove it. I vote to remove some of the less used programs such as say gnumeric and maybe the kde games.. also maybe some of the hard out development tools such as kdgb.. if developers need them they will know how to download them

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I have to agree with you EADZ that the 3.2 version is much better. In fact I was just playing around with Kword today. You can embed an incredible number of objects from other koffice apps in a kword file. It's also improved as a Desktop publishing app (though I'm really getting into using Scribus now). No one can have all their favorite stuff kept in, but I hope Klaus can find a some other apps to remove first. If he is not going to upgrade Rosegarden to the newest version, then please remove the old version that is still included in Knoppix. It's pretty useless compared to what the current versions can do.

How about Latex/Lyx et al? Do people really want them on the live CD? Does anything of any note depend upon them? Would they be missed? Completely stripping all trace of them out would (if my memory serves me correctly) remove enough to save 65M! Also I would agree with others mentioning the duality of Mozilla, I would be happy to see only one mozilla (either the full suite, or the components, not both) and gnumeric strikes me as another potential removal (if you have KOffice and OpenOffice.org having yet another spreadsheet seems too much (and out of place, KOffice goes with KDE and OO.o seems to be the overall default choice))?

Why not have two separate versions? A minimalist CD version
with only one office suite, no LaTeX, etc. Personally, I would
like to see about 100MB of free space on the minimal version
for easier customization.

Another DVD version with the usual packages found on most distributions.

Knoppix has become a global phenomenon; it is extremely important to get the next version right. Perhaps start by considering what cannot be excluded. That probably includes retention as a CDRom for all the reasons given so far. It is also relevent to examine what the opposition offers and what the overall objective might be. Regardless of what the image makers would have us believe, most of the world still uses a version of W9x; WXP has been and will continue to be an unmitigated disaster for the masses - hence the appeal of Linux. For so many years, the linux community constantly engaged in foot-shooting, navel-contemplation and preaching to the converted until Klaus' little miracle arrived. The IT cognoscenti can always take care of themselves - it is their profession. Therefore, the obvious course would seem to be to chop out all the duplicated development, networking and shell options from the general release and either issue or encourage development of a specialist version separately via the remastering section of this forum for the professionals?
Firefox is good, but if Opera with M2 is smaller that is also worth serious consideration; the Norwegians are also very helpful and flexible with assistance if a little more fat needs trimming. KOffice and browser may need to stay as the fall-back, akin to notepad and wordpad - useful when all else fails! An improved digital camera module seems essential and will not help in the final choices.
OG.

I feel that knoppix/debian could become the prefered standard linux distro by allowing the end user to decide what packages ride on top of a minimal core with all the conflicting hassel's worked out in that core. The end user could then decide CD or DVD or HD etc... I know this has always been the case to those who have a deep grasp of custom building with knoppix (which I regretfully don't) Something similar in scope to morphix but using regular packages as opposed to a special format for modular additions maybe just better doc's on rolling your own or a tool to simplify the process? A solid core system with this flexability is the key I think. At least I hope to someday be able to build my own knoppix based CD's for several special purposes I have in mind and the odds of anyone having the same preferences to what I would like to see on these CD's are fairly low. Of course OO should be there as well as most if not all the standard X interfaces. Just my opinion but that is where I would like to see the focus remain.

65Mb is pretty much. But there must be a way to make a perfect Knoppix live-cd.

I agree that KOffice is improving much. But I don't mind when it is not included in the next Knoppix. Maybe a shortcut/link to install it on the computer after a HD install. Like the Flash install link. Maybe it can be done with more programs.

Why 2 kernels? Go for the new 2.6 kernel. And technical/programming programs, people who want to use them probably know how to install them. So maybe some can be excluded from the CD.

I vote for a Knoppix which we can give to Linux Newbies (like me too :D) so they get to know Linux. Internet, E-mail, Office and games are the first things to start with.

To all from the Knoppix team, Thank You for a wonderfull CD!!! It is my first choice after trying RedHat, SuSE and Fedora.

good point, reduce the amount of devel tools.
it should be enough to compile from source but not much more.

It is a wonderful product, and like many others here... It has saved my data in the past when WinXP became unbootable.

I've thought about my usage pattens with Knoppix, and I have to agree with the theme of this thread. I tend to open KOffice just to look at the state of development, and then quickly close it again. OO is the way to go. Koffice is a nice set of applications, but it is not as ready as OO, and not as widely accepted, even in the geek community.

I would also reconsider the amount of games and entertainment packages. For me, and probably most Knoppix users, Knoppix is a tool, not a toy. For those who end up doing a hard drive install, anything can be added later to suit taste.

Steve

/me votes

koffice out.
mozilla out.

opera or firefox in (i can understand if u don't want opera as it's adware when not registered though).

2.6.5 kernel and OOfice latest in.

xchat out bersirc in? (if not then certainly look to upgrade xchat due to the recent proxy exploit ( http://www.osnn.net/comments.php?shownews=10239 ), birsircs UI, and new mirc script compatability is v nice though)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakumo

opera or firefox in (i can understand if u don't want opera as it's adware when not registered though).

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btw The Opera adware is very discreet... I run the commercial version on XP and the free version on Linux. The difference is negligible, and it makes an excellent partner to Konqueror.

No doubt its considered heresy by many Linux users ;-)

Hello,

I use Knoppix both for introducing new users and for system/network debugging. Hence I'm in favor of keeping games as well as tools like Nessus. I'd vote for removing open office for the prior stated reasons. I'd also vote for retaining the CD distro for the prior stated reasons. The same for the additional display managers.

Now, regarding the space problem....

The multiple language approach would cause a major restructuring on your part and hence would not be my first choice. Also, it's probably easier for those of us in the US to live with a mono-language distro than for Europeans, and this is a European distro.

Part of the the space problem seems to be due to the dual nature of Knoppix - both run from a CD and installed. Some of the utilities, like TeX, are more useful for an installed system, but I feel they are still very useful. KOffice fits into this category, too. Hence, if Knoppix splits into 2 CDs, the second might contain those applications more useful when installed on HDD. Also, since Knoppix is basically Debian, some enhanced form of package retriever might help with additional components.

Re the problem of 2.4 vs. 2.6 kernel... How about a split? Make 3.4 the 2.6 kernel line and 3.3 the 2.4 kernel line? Over time, as the 2.6 kernel line matures, you can then drop the 3.3 series.

I hope some of this is useful. Thanks for a wonderful distro. And good luck.

It always happens...

On my prior post, please replace "Open Office" with "KOffice" in the third sentence.

Forgive my asking - why not consider the high density CDs (800MB)? If the ISO is 765 or even 785 MB, it would still fit in one of these...

This way, the community can:
1. Get its hands on 3.4 and chill for a moment
2. Prepare for a wide and detailed questionnaire - WHAT IS HOT and WHAT IS NOT?, to consider for the next release... I myself am prepared to answer to ANY questionnaire the KNOPPIX team has in place.

All of the above have noted key points to consider. One thing I believe is most important though - KNOPPIX should remain easy-and-accessible for newbies. It is the first step we need to help with - take care of the newbies. ;)

Smith

Dona's suggestions make sense.

There is a dicotomy between the HD version and the live CD version. A solution might be a two CD distro, the first CD being a 'live' CD. The second CD would be tools which are more likely to be useful for an HD installation.

Personally, I'm a fan of some of the KOffice elements like gnumeric over the OO spreadsheet, but needs must.