Ver 3.4 observation

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Originally Posted by probono

Hi j.drake, perhaps we should put together a nice fromhd/tohd/grub/persistenthome/klik tutorial with screenshots and very easy to follow step-by-step instructions for newbies... It's certainly not easy to find the information in all the forum posts.

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I had been planning to do a WIKI update, but I got sidetracked, went on a long vacation, came back to a desk full of work, and lots of home maintenance projects. Like you, I am stoked about this, and I absolutely agree with ICPUG that this is the best way for a Windows user to learn and use linux without putting the Windows installation at risk. I have recommended this to a number of people here, whenever I can. Oftentimes I will link to a quick guide I did in a prior post http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...?p=53064#53064 (which I would need to polish up before calling it a "guide"). As you could see, I got sidetracked on the issue of using some other bootdevice to get to the image (in my case, a USB stick). I got lots of great suggestions that I never got to try out.

ANYWAY, what I think would be really good would be to simplify this whole concept for newbie Windows users by focusing on using the live CD as the boot device, which they presumably have already, and post it in the WIKI, and possibly as a sticky in the Windows forum. From there, we could link to other posts to give options for refinement (such as USBs, floppies, and other devices to boot, the "bootfrom" cheatcode, and using bootloaders). I think that this is the best option, because there is no editing of scripts, and you don't even have to use the console. The last thing a new Windows migrant needs is to be told about having to use BASH and editing scripts!!! It's real simple - if you successfully burned and booted the live CD, then you already have the skills to do this (with version 3.4). Does that sound like something you'd want to do?

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Originally Posted by ICPUG

I have a desire to find an easy way to get Windows users, not necessarily technical, into using Knoppix. I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.

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The secret is in using the cheatcodes at boot. When you stick the CD in and restart, the initial image pauses, and you can type in the cheatcodes. Once you have copied the image to your hd, and restarted with the "fromhd" cheatcode, you can take the CD completely out and use the drive for whatever purpose you want. You don't have to create a boot disk, because what you need to boot is already on the live CD. I don't see why that wouldn't be ideal - you already have what you need without having to figure out how to make a different boot device. To my thinking, the only downside is that it's harder to fit a CD into your pocket than it is a floppy or a USB stick. IIRC, one of the bugs in version 3.4 that never got addressed was a simple way of making a boot floppy. There is a menu path for making them, but from what I've read, it doesn't work. Hopefully, that will be addressed with the new version.

I guess the other thing we might want to address in targeting Windows immigrants is to make sure they understand about the drive designation syntax. I tried to address that a little bit when I added some stuff to the WIKI for Windows users, but I also found a link to a Debian how-to that explains it very nicely (don't have it with me now, though).

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Originally Posted by A. Jorge Garcia

Wait a minute here! I thought tohd/fromhd was for use as a poor man's install. In other words, just a copy of the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file off the CD which is a ro fs, right?

What's this saving files and installing programs? Is this an rw fs after all? Or are you referring to persistent home when you mention saving files and klik when you mention installing programs?

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No, you're right, AJ, you have to set up a persistent home (PH) and saved configuration, which is what I was referring to in Step 2 of my earlier post. But once you do that, and use the tohd and fromhd cheatcodes, you can install programs automatically using Klik (or even just saving them to your PH and clicking the script). Once the PH is set up, a user doesn't have to know (or care) about the RW status of the various drives, because Knoppix opens the home. With Version 3.4, setting up a PH and saving your configuration is simply a matter of tracing through the menus (which is no problem for Windows users) - the only issue is teaching them the linux drive naming conventions so they can decide where to store stuff, and how to initially make the location they select writable. From there, all they have to care about is saving to "home".

BTW, I recently downloaded the SuSE live CD. I HATE IT!! :evil: It's SO INCREDIBLY dumbed down and watered down that it would be terribly frustrating for experienced Windows users. There are no drive icons on the desktop, and I could find no way to access the drives. It simply has a predefined "home" directory, that they try to make look like "My Documents" in Windows. I think the assumption is that Novell is gearing SuSE toward enterprise deployment, where everything is locked down, and they are trying their best to lower the possibility that "lowest common denominator" Windows users will feel "threatened" if they are suddenly forced into a Linux environment by their IS folks. To me, that reasoning is DEAD WRONG for Knoppix. The reason being is that if you are sophisticated enough as a computer user to be checking Linux out on your own, then you simply aren't going to be satisfied with an interface that doesn't give you access to what you want on your own computer. Windows immigrants get frustrated enough by console commands and the restrictions of root privileges without having to put up with an emasculated version of linux, IMO.

AJG, It is SO COOL to see you weigh in on this topic. When I first came to this forum, you were among the most helpful people here, and it was you who first recommended the poor man's option to me. Being accustomed to a Windows environment, and having been frustrated by the restrictions of a read-only live CD environment, I assumed that nothing short of a full hd install would give me the functionality I wanted. You tried to persuade me to poor man's, but I wouldn't listen, tried a dual boot option that was beyond my capabilities at the time, hosed my MBR, and was suitably humbled. As you can see, I have finally seen the light. As I've said in numerous other posts, if poor man's with PH is good enough to let probono do what he does, then it's certainly adequate to my needs!!!

jd

Thanx for the kind words, jd! Glad you've seen the light and now you too can help a ton of people yourself. "Look, Ma, Junior's all growd up!" How does it feel being a Linux Guru?

I find your post ironic, however. Now that you've come to accept the poorman's install, I've become much more comfortable wth the hdinstall, mbr, lilo path. How funny is that?

Good luck with the wiki!

Best Regards,
AJG

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Originally Posted by A. Jorge Garcia

I find your post ironic, however. Now that you've come to accept the poorman's install, I've become much more comfortable wth the hdinstall, mbr, lilo path. How funny is that?

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Sounds normal to me. Hd install is the next logical step - if you want to take that step. Of course, most of the people who take that step are people who are ready to leave Windows behind for good. IOW, most aren't all that concerned about dual booting, which is where most of the problems come in, as I see it. I think poor man's is the perfect solution for folks who are both Windows gurus and Linux explorers. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for dual boot, and I don't deny that. I wouldn't rule out the possibility for myself, at some point. But poor man's relieves the frustration of the limitations of a live CD environment. It, IMO, is uniquely suited and ideal for linux immigrants.

BTW, AJ, were you the person who originally conceived the idea and name of poor man's? If so, I think it makes sense to give credit where credit is due. I don't recall seeing anyone post about it before you.

jd

Hi jd!

Nope, I don't think I was the first to coin the phrase "poor man's dual boot." I think it was from a howto in the doc page on www.knoppix.net predating wikis.

That howto was only about 5 lines long, so I decided to expand upon it. Again, this was before wikis, so the only way I could improve upon the howto was by way of these forums as well you know!

BTW, I wouldn't, even now, do a dual boot except for the fact that I teach at a school where I have to share my lab with WIMxP addicts. I'd much rather leave WIMPdoze in the dust and use a pure linux hdinstall 24x7x52x100!

Just for the record, I never have had occassion to use PH or klik but it sure sounds useful! If I can't use qtparted and knoppix-installer on a PC, then I usually won't use it! BTW, I've hdinstalled 100s of PCs with KNOPPIX, if not 1000s. I've used all releases of KNOPPIX since 2.2beta and I've installed on Pentium I MMXs and up.

Of all those trials, I was unable to do a hdinstall only twice. The first time doesn't count as the hdd was going bad, but I spent hours with cfdisk and qtparted before I figured that out....

The other time was when I recently dug-up an old Gateway PII 266 with 159MB RAM out of my attic I forgot I had. I thought it would be a piece of cake to revitalize it with a KNOPPIX CD (no hdd) and put it on my router at home for the kids (that makes 4 networked PCs in my home office - 2 PII, 1 PIII and 1 PIV). Then I find that the keyboard/mouse port card is fried. So I slap on a USB keyboard and a USB mouse. Note: the keyboard isn't recognized until after boot time - so no cheat codes.

OK, finally I got it booted-up and on the net with keyboard and mouse OK (after tons of insmod errors during the autodetect sequence). Now, the problem is the whole thing goes into sleep mode in 3-4 minutes after booting, and no mater what I do, it won't wake-up without another boot! Its a shame, 'cause I'd slap on a 6GB hdd I have floating around here somewhere if this beast would stay awake long enough to run knoppix-installer!

When its awake, it runs fine. BTW, I'm using a KNOPPIX 3.3 liveCD in there as 3.4 runs dma and this PC needs nodma (3.3 defaults to nodma) - remember, no cheat codes! I'm about ready to dump this PC, what a shame. :(

Best Regards,
AJG

Hi guys ,

Try here ......

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12520

for a well researched method , utilising Linloader instead of GRUB/LILO to avoid potential MBR corruption .

I've found the ORDER of instigating your Pertistent Home and Saveconfig settings is critical to success , but enjoy being able to craft my boot arguments on a floppy ..... and especially seeing , on boot , 'Starting Windows 98' , then flying into Debian ..... I LOVE that !!!!!

Enjoy .

This is one of several elegant solutions to a problem. Unfortunately, it involves a level of linux sophistication not held by the typical Windows tourist/immigrant. I think it has a lot of possibilities, though.

jd

probono, I have a draft ready. Check the e-mail address you posted on the klik page.

jd

I would like to thank Mzilikazi, Crashed Again, J. Drake and Dr PC Tunes for their help with regard to my earlier posting in this thread.

I have some comments which may help in producing the newbie note.

Mzilikazi suggested using apt-get to install grub. My understanding at present is that to use apt-get one needs to have a full Linux install on the hard drive. Since the purpose of Poor Man’s Install is to avoid this, I cannot really follow up this suggestion at this time.

Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.

J. Drake prefers to use the Live CD as the boot device and says the secret is cheat codes. This certainly works and it is how I operate at the moment. Dr PC Tunes has given some reasons why he prefers to dispose of the Live CD as a boot device. Here are a few more:

To use cheat codes one has to type them in. Since it has to be done every time you boot up this gives plenty of opportunities to make mistakes.

Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. Turn on the PC, get that CD-ROM drive tray open, Live CD in place and tray closed before the memory check is complete or it will boot from the hard drive to Windows! Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!

Windows users are used to turning on the PC and going to get a cup of coffee while it boots up. I exaggerate a bit, but you get my meaning. Using the Live CD as a boot device one has to hang around waiting for the initial image pause and then get typing the cheat codes before the defaults take over. I prefer to let it go without intervention.

The in-built system for making boot floppies worked for me on my Fat32 machine, but it needs 2 floppies with Knoppix 3.4. Thus, you still have to hang around to put the second floppy in. It doesn’t work on NTFS though!

Immediately after I first posted to this thread I caught Dr. PC Tunes ideas elsewhere for using Loadlin. This only works on Fat formatted drives but it looked a good starting point. I thought the procedure was reasonably OK for newbies. I find that provided you can tell them in simple step by step instructions, THAT ARE GOING TO WORK, you can get them do quite complex things.

I tried the procedure last night and I was extremely disappointed to get a Kernel Panic message. I will address that problem on the appropriate thread.

OK, I still have not got my ideal solution but I am learning stuff and I am looking forward to what J. Drake and Probono come up with.

As Windows XP users start to have Service Pack 2 installed on their machines and suddenly find their apps don’t work properly anymore we have to be ready to give them a simple alternative.

Keep at it guys!

How about running loadlin from the boot floppy?

BTW, I'm not all fingers on any of my PCs, no matter how fast, as I have a BIOS passwd in place. The boot sequence waits for me to supply this passwd before booting the unspeakable OS. So I put my live CD in at that time, then supply the passwd to get the bot sequence started-up again.

Regard,
AJG

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Originally Posted by ICPUG

Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. Turn on the PC, get that CD-ROM drive tray open, Live CD in place and tray closed before the memory check is complete or it will boot from the hard drive to Windows! Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!

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Not a problem for me on and Athlon XP 2800+. In my experience, people get sick of waiting for the boot and want a new machine, then they get the new machine, and the boot is just as slow. As I elaborate further below, this is purposefully basic.

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Originally Posted by ICPUG

Windows users are used to turning on the PC and going to get a cup of coffee while it boots up. I exaggerate a bit, but you get my meaning. Using the Live CD as a boot device one has to hang around waiting for the initial image pause and then get typing the cheat codes before the defaults take over. I prefer to let it go without intervention.

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I agree. I think probono is is looking into some of that. The experiences I've hade with bootloaders have not been positive, to say the least. We both thought that this link looked promising, http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...?p=53357#53357 , but I haven't had time to check out the method.

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Originally Posted by ICPUG

OK, I still have not got my ideal solution but I am learning stuff and I am looking forward to what J. Drake and Probono come up with.

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Hot off the presses. http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/PoorMansInstall . It's on the WIKI. Since so many people complain that they can't find good information for "poor man's", I thoght we should post it under that title - that's how people look for it. REally, it's more comprehensive than a poor man's, as AJG pointed out earlier in the thread. I did back link to the "HdBased" WIKI page also, but to tell you the truth, that page is such an incredible mess that I can hardly make any sense of it myself, and I sure wouldn't expect a newbie to figure out what's outdated and what isn't, what works with what version, and all the "don't do this if you don't know what you're doing" warnings and complicated methods - Ay Caramba!!! No WONDER they can't find anything - It's a MESS!! My #1 priority was to get something up for Windows immigrants, who mistakenly believe that they need to go through a hd install in order to get the functionality they expect. I can't tell you how many times I've read in the last week posts by people which basically say, "I want to know how to do a hd install, but I'm a total newbie to Linux", and well-intentioned people point them to hdinstall articles and talk about editing scripts and apt-get, and the like. Windows people assume that they need a hd install because that's how Windows is. They need to be shown that there's a better option for them.

The how-to is purposefully basic - no editing, no searching, no downloading, no installation of external programs, no typing BASH at a console, no Root, and everything is done from KDE's GUI or the boot prompt using things the newbie already has. Admittedly, there are ways to fancy it up, but that's not the purpose of this. The purposes are simplicity, function, comprehensiveness and reliability. Later, we may incorporate links to fancier or more functional (but more complex) options, possibly including some ideas from Dr PC Tunes or Ruymbeke, as well as others, but we felt we needed to get the basic method out now.

Who knows, maybe more to come. :wink:

jd