Why not Knoppix on the HD?

I agree with DelphiDude. Most Knoppix versions work fine when installed on HD. if you want a basic desktop system and the ability to experiment with servers then it's fine. If you want to run production servers then it's not ideal, but most newbies aren't in this position. Life's too short for most people to get involved installing Debian. If you want stability then Knoppix is more stable than Kanotix because it's packages are generally more stable - Knoppix runs Apache 1.3x, for example, whereas Kanotix (which I have never used, but heard good reports about) currently runs Apache 2x in it's 64-bit version. If you convert the /etc/apt/sources.list file to just point to stable mirrors then I imagine Knoppix would be less likely to break on upgrading packages than Kanotix, which is based on Sid - always unstable in comparison to stable Debian versions. There is currently no widely used Live CD based on Woody that I know of, Gnoppix may be more stable, but personally I find using KDE easier. If you want more control then Gentoo.
If you want security run Knoppix from CDROM - you can't get more secure because nobody can write to the CDROM, assuming it's not a rewriteable type.
Knoppix 3.3 does all the things I regard as important to me from a HD install on my laptop, but probably not the ideal HD install for most people. Kanotix wouldn't do these things, so for me it's not as good.
Would a toram install of Knoppix be stable and reliable enough to act as a production server environment does anybody know?
Together with a USBstick for data storage you could have a server that didn't rely on moving parts.
Debian is a very great system. As I understand it Debian stable is very stable indeed and updating and upgrading should not break it. New features are added all the time to Sid (unstable). Testing concentrates on new features as well. If bugs are discovered in testing or unstable versions that affect the stable version, then eventually the stable version will be patched to make it even more stable/ secure. If the bugs are related to new features only found in the latest unstable or testing versions then they are not fed back into the stable version. Thus even Kanotix is likely to break if upgraded regularly. Reading from the Kanotix forum

http://forum.kanotix.net/viewtopic.php?t=10245

merely confirms this.
Regards,
Mark

<Beating a dead-horse and kicking it into ground ...>
I get it. You (collectively) are not attacking me and you (collectively) are not being too critical of me. I think we all have common goals. I want all users to have the best possbile knoppix experience. A HD install of Knoppix may or may not fit within that best possible experience. Notice that I have never said "Don't do a HD install of Knoppix". Also notice that I try to direct my suggestions to newbie users and not experienced or advanced Linux users. If the user is truly a newbie & not accustomed to the technical and sometimes complicated details of Linux, then I suggest that they don't do it. For those newbie users that were either not warned or chose to not follow the the advice then they may be forced to learn Linux administration & figure out how to unbreak Knoppix, most cases networking. Does anyone else think that being a newbie and knowing Linux administration are complete opposites of each other? If a user knows how to use dmesg or modprobe then they are not a newbie user.

We have a difference of opinion and that is OK and fine. You can believe "Most Knoppix versions work fine when installed on HD." and that is fine based on your experience. But the experiences of newbie users is in direct opposition to your opinion.

This is how it currently is:
newbie gets knoppix -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie reads or is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install breaks networking -> newbie struggles to get knoppix working -> newbie is forced to learn administrative commmands -> after some work & intervention(dmesg, lspic, lsmod, modprobe), newbie gets Linux working

See two thread started within 6 hours of each other today on how installed Knoppix 3.9 to the HD and the person discovered that networking is broken.
"localhost not working" http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20394
"Working Knoppix 3.9" http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20398
The solution is to create a symbolic link, as root user:

Code:

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ln -s /etc/init.d/ifupdown-clean /etc/rcS.d/S18ifupdown-clean

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I re-wrote much of the HD Install HowTo and I welcome any attempts at educating & warning the users with less scary and less negative language. Since I am not a god, I can not magically create pop up warning when any newbie user goes to do a HD install. Since Knoppix 3.9 and 4.0 is out in the world for general consumption with its known bugs, we can't change them now. Since I am not a Knoppix developer, I can only do so much proactive warning/suggesting to the newbie users who want to install Knoppix to the HD.

Discussing Knoppix HD installs does not change the fact that people have problems with the HD install every day. What else can we/I do?

Don't be so hard on yourself UnderScore. I don't think anybody is having a go at you in particular, and I'm sure anybody who reads this forum regularly will have picked up some useful advice and tips from you. I know I have.

Quote:

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This is how it currently is:
newbie gets knoppix -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie reads or is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install breaks networking -> newbie struggles to get knoppix working.

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This may be so at present, but I'm sure it will improve. For me it was

newbie gets knoppix (3.1) -> newbie likes knoppix -> newbie is told that HD install is OK -> newbie installs Knoppix to the HD -> HD install gives a working X-server with Debian login screen-> Newbie no longer has to try and install Debian where he was never able to configure X -> Newbie happy as Larry.

Anyway, your reply reminds me of a question. If you're into sadism, bestiality and necrophilia are you flogging a dead horse?
Regards,
Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markpreston

...Would a toram install of Knoppix be stable and reliable enough to act as a production server environment does anybody know?
Together with a USBstick for data storage you could have a server that didn't rely on moving parts...

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That's exactly what I do. Since it isn't an HD install, nothing is broken, and you can customize it by remastering the CD image. I remove the packages that I don't need, and fit it into a 512 Mb CF card I made bootable with a 10Mb Fat16 partition running syslinux using the fromhd cheat. The toram cheat code makes it super fast too since your speed is limited only by the processor - no more waiting for CDROM or HD access. And then there's all the advantages of a 100% solid state machine that runs off a read-only storage device (note if you use a USB Flash Drive instead most of them have a physical "read-only" switch which is an added bonus).

This is far more preferrable to the HD install unless you're frequently needing to remaster the CD image to get new packages installed. I don't need to do this because my machines are highly specialized.