IRC Help available on irc.freenode.net channel #knoppix

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Originally Posted by Psibr

But even with #knoppix being a fairly good channel compared to the other linux related ones(try those sometime if you want to learn what linux/unix grade rudeness really is), it's still not quite to the point of being even close to the AOL tech support line level you are likely expecting it to be.

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I was never interested in nor did I expect something like an AOL tech support for knoppix for free. I only expected basic politeness, ie not insulting someone for asking a question. Yes, IRC is not quite like that, but if no one ever objects to such behviour it will never change

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Knoppix is just the start in the changing of the linux culture from hardcore no life dorklings who consider using any other editor than vi to be a hellworthy offense, to linux versions where you can boot from the CD and with fairly minimal levels of pain get a lot of hardware and software to run "easily".

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All the more reason to raise objections to abusive behaviour.

The people who work on knoppix/linux/gpl stuff want to see a reward for their hard unselfish work by seeing people use their software and thereby promoting the freedoms of the gpl.

People who choose to gratuitiously insult people seeking help will prevent this by driving newcomers to knoppix/linux/the gpl away.

All it takes is for a few other people to raise objections to such behaviour to make it go away. I have seen it in other forums.

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The ONLY way to build a more mainstream linux culture is for windows using type people to actually learn it and build their own support base. And so far, knoppix is about the easiest way to learn linux by actually using it. Maybe if they have a linux+ cert for dummies book out there that might help.

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Windows was made for people who are computer users, not computer professionals or computer enthusiasts. GNU/Linux needs to win over these people...take them from the windows camp, in order to grow. Many of these people will never be interested in their operating system beyond simply using it. The way to build a mainstream linux culture is to let go of the idea that this a bad thing. It really isn't a bad thing. The internet/usenet is voluntary so anyone who does not want to answer or even read questions does not have to. For people like us the only thing left to do to build a mainstream linux community is to stand up when people are slammed for asking a question.

I can see your point, and maybe it works in other communities. But complaining is not going to cut it with your unix/linux geek crowd. I've got friends who do consulting for this kind of stuff, and talking with them about anything unix/linux related is far more painfull on average than having infected stitches on your face removed with no painkiller.

I hate to think of what fun you're going to have with the average "customer service THIS buddy!" attitude unix geek when they are done with a hard days work, and probably starting to get trashed.
That whole deal with the "grovel before me technoid, I'm a big important lawyer with a trophy wife, cover my inept mistakes and maybe I'll pay my bill on time" that they face on the job is going to be turned around on some unsuspecting newbie when they hit IRC.

It's not exactly to the point of being the "we're the phone company, we don't care,we don't have to!" attitude, its more or a merit based snobism. If you can't be troubled to at least LOOK at the manual, they are going to taunt you. Crying a river and/or sending every code grinding geek an angry e-mail won't change that.

A base of people needs to be built up who have lives that don't revolve around coding or working with computers exclusively. When you have that you'll have people who are more understanding of newbie mistakes and ignorance of where to look for answers.

IMHO I think you are stretching my point way out of shape.

Nobody is talking about complaining about quality of help from a position of entitlement or an attitude of entitlement.

I am talking about the community coming togther to lose the attitude on the _other_ end.

The community needs to encourgage losing the idea that asking a question.....without a threat of rudeness......is an earned privelage.

Not only does it indicate a need of a life, but it weakens the community by driving away support for the community.

Its all voluntary in reality and it works both ways so no one has room to make a _ legitimate_ complaint.

If someone doesn't want to deal with a post they don't have to.

People who slam others gratuitiously on the internet are basically cowards.
A few people posting back saying that they do not endorse the behaviour is often enough.

I have seen groups turned around like that.

However, that only works if someone says something, so I said something.

The attitude problem is with us, the community, we can ignore anyone we want to, but being rude to people sabatoges are own goals.

Steve

It's not really easy to make the point without insulting either the newbies or the unix/linux geeks.

But basically the people you are looking for, are not there. You are not gonna find a MENSA group with an outreach program for middle IQ folks.

Simply read any pre-2000 linux manual, then go farther back and read a pre-90s Unix manual. You will hopefully soon get the idea where this all started, and still how far away the bulk of the unix/linux crowd is from normal users.

I suppose you missed the point when I was saying the closest thing to a Linux for Dummies guide was the Linux+ Certification prep books. That wasn't a joke, the documentation for all linux/unix is that bad.

The people who 10 years or more ago who slogged through the manuals are not going to understand what your problem is. Linux now is like having an automatic transmission rather than having to stop, unbolt, change and rebolt on the new gears. With knoppix you don't even really have to drive, just give it instructions when it gets lost.

But that's where the breakdown happens. Outside of the nifty hack that knoppix is, everything is still a wasteland of poorly documented fragments. The few out there who know whats going on don't speak your language, and like the french get highly uptight when you speak the language poorly.
Ranting and raving that they should speak english does no good. You are in their country. Spending money or not, they don't care.

Maybe once there are more ordinary people around, there will be an actual base of people that can relate and act as a support group. But that's not going to happen for quite some time. Even then, the people who grind the code are not going to worry about making it user friendly to anyone but their limited peer group. Those who do make a Linux environment that is deliberately user friendly are going to want real money for it. And unless they coded a program, its not going to be documented to a point where ordinary users can understand it.

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It's not really easy to make the point without insulting either the newbies or the unix/linux geeks.

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No insults are needed. It is simply a matter of replying back to a forum after someone has been obviously and gratuitiously slammed for having asked a question stating that you/I/we don't go for slamming people for asking questions.

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But basically the people you are looking for, are not there. You are not gonna find a MENSA group with an outreach program for middle IQ folks.

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I never wrote that I was looking for those people or anyone. I only called someone on being gratuitously rude and am making the point to encourage others to do the same as it will help the linux community.

I've met a lot of intelligent people online, but not many people far above the clouds and I haven't met any stupid people yet. I also know several literal geniuses in my life who behave and deal like normal people.

The other issues you raise beyond my point are not about intelligence, its about people who have gotten into the habit of being nasty to people regardless of how smart they are.

Gratuitous rudeness and an imperious attitude don't have to have anything to do with intelligence. If you don't believe me just go to your local motor vehicale administration on a busy day :)

Steve

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Originally Posted by lilliput

A french channel is now available @ #knoppixfr on the same host
(officiel www.knoppixfr.org channel... )
so see u soon

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why cant i load knoppix on my dell laptop (5150) from the cd boot.

my dail up wont work

Hi!
Was unable to connect to your server today.

09:42 -!- Irssi: Unable to connect server irc.knoppix.net port 6667 [Name or service not known]

Better move to #gentoo@freenode if you have some troubles ?