Linux is a dream that is not realy there

I must agree with Mudwater that Linux is hard to install and requires to much reading to get it up running. My felling is that until the average home user can just insert a cd and like magic Linux is installed and running fine, it will never replace Windows.
When they do get it running, the last thing that they would want (in my view) is to spend hours working out how to update thier system, let alone installing another program.
Now before you shoot me down in flames, I have just installed Knoppix to my HD and it is running fine, although I have also tried installing Debian 3.0R1, RedHat 8.0, Mandrake 9 and various others, most were just to complex for me. I have no knowlage of Linux but like to learn as I go, which is hard if you cannot get an installation to work in the first place.

Sometimes the installation is very difficult indeed. Knoppix saved me from Linux starvation :wink:
Yesterday I tried Mandrake 10 RC1 and I wasn't able to install anything as my mouse and keyboard didn't work.
There are some commercial distros that seem to do a good job at installing (Xandros, Lindows). I resisted them (what ? I am going to pay for software ? I never pay for software. hehehe.).
If it doesn't work for you yet, I assure you that once you get everything working you will be glad :)
With Knoppix I was able to jump from installation to using the system in the light speed. I learned so much about the applications in such a short time that I am amazed (shorewall, iptables, apt-get, apt-file, smbmount, desktop sharing, vnc...). Still I was not a complete newbie :)

Mepis is pretty brain-dead to install. Frankly, none of my Linux installs have ever taken more than 30 min., and it's pretty much insert CD, click click walk away have coffee, click and you're done.

With Windows, you need to set aside at least 3 hours, then it's reboot load driver CD reboot load driver CD reboot load driver CD reboot patch reboot patch reboot etc.

Slackware 9.1 install= 30 mins and 1 reboot, Mandrake 9.1 install= 40mins and 1 reboot, Win'98SE install =1 hour and 8 reboots (I actually counted them). Mandrake was the easiest (does the partitioning for you, if you want or don't know how). Slack is fast, fairly easy (selects defaults for you if you don't know and also explains the choices too) although knowledge of partitioning required. Windows..... frustrating (half of the time it can't find it's own files or drivers to configure something) crashed on the 5th reboot.
These installs were... Slackware on a Celeron 2.4G system and installed Mandy on a Duron 1.2G system and Windows '98 on an XP1700 system. Haven't done a Knoppix HDD install yet but will get around to it one of these days. Running Knoppix off the CD= Bootup in less than 5 minutes and 0 reboots!! :D
The point is that I haven't had any problems with the Linux installs. Perhaps I'm just having good luck. They run perfectly fine with uptimes of 6+ days at times (with only a couple of program crashes..nautilus ...somewhat dislike nautilus).

What's wrong with paying for software ??
But seriously, your right. Xandros, Lindows, Lycroris et al all install pretty much Brain dead. Lindows assumes you are brain dead and writes over any other partitions...its all down to simplifying the install.

Making Linux easy to install is not really a challenge. The real challenge is how to do it without messing anything up.

It would be relatively easy to write a script and customise knoppix live to just presume no other OS was present and just install itself BUT its very undesirable. There are even brain dead server products out there like SME-Server which give you a fully functioning web/email gateway.
BUT they are all hell to customise becuase building in the simplicity builds out the power and cutomisability.

I don't understand the whole problem with pokey.....
there are plenty of distro's (mainly commercial) that you just stick in the Cd and it will wipe everythng off and install itself.

If Mandrake 9.0 install was too complex for you then your better off not using it...

Mandrake is aimed at intermediate people who have some knowedge of PC's in general. I installed the Mandrake 10.o release candidate the other night for a look. I didn't time it but perhaps 5 minutes and oine reboot and its working as a system.

A 5 minute install does EVERYTHING windows can and a lot more.
What does windows contain ....
A OS and graphical interface, email client of sorts and news reader. A basic text editor etc. etc.

However the difference is after the 5 minute install I started adding the things I needed. Things that wouldn't be available in windows or would cost a lot of money. Surely you just let it wipe your windows install out....
just choose use entire disk and it will. (Windows does the same in reverse)

At this point all you have to configure is your email accounts etc. really no different from Windows. The big difference here is that Mandrake GIVES YOU a CHOICE.... what people seem to object to is the choice.
and if this is the case then better to choose Lindows!!

urpmi apache webmin postfix mysql php phpBB2......
Then I have a nights downloading to wait for, but Im getting the latest servers with the latest security and bug patches applied.

Then of course it gets complicated....
Setting up a web server is not hard but an email server takes some thought. Think about it your installing the equavalent of a secure exchange server ... its not going to be point and click you'll need to read some documentation.

The point Im making is that if you choose lots of servers and stuff that wouldn't even be in Windows then its obviously a bit more complex.
For the masses who don't wanna learn anything then perhaps Lindows is more suitable or a LIVE knoppix CD. The problem seems to be too much choice, not something windows users are used to.

I think knoppix rocks and Mandrake is a nice system for people to learn about linux on. Debian is for hard core purists .... as are say slack and gentoo etc. (all in their own ways). In many ways they are superior BUT they are not really for the faint hearted or someone who just want the thing to work. More they are something you gradually move towards as you understand more of linux and expect more from it.

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Originally Posted by dewd

Sometimes the installation is very difficult indeed. Knoppix saved me from Linux starvation :wink:
Yesterday I tried Mandrake 10 RC1 and I wasn't able to install anything as my mouse and keyboard didn't work.
There are some commercial distros that seem to do a good job at installing (Xandros, Lindows). I resisted them (what ? I am going to pay for software ? I never pay for software. hehehe.).
If it doesn't work for you yet, I assure you that once you get everything working you will be glad :)
With Knoppix I was able to jump from installation to using the system in the light speed. I learned so much about the applications in such a short time that I am amazed (shorewall, iptables, apt-get, apt-file, smbmount, desktop sharing, vnc...). Still I was not a complete newbie :)

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A comment on Win vrs Lin from an old goat. I've just spent the last 5 day trying to get a "configured" version of Knoppix on my hard drive. I'm a newbie and it took about 3 days to get it initally installed. Then I kept corrupting the install by making mistakes trying to get the CDROM
volume high enough to be heard. Kept disappearing after reboot. Read the forum, found the clues, now know how to fix that.
Then I tried to straighten out the video card/monitor
situation. I got the card in ok. But the changes I make to
the monitor, 800X600, 24 color, revert to 640X480, 8
color, after reboot, even though KD told me the changes were saved but I needed to reboot to put them into effect.
The first couple of hard drive installations I could do the
videocard/monitor configuring with no problem. So I figured I had a corrupted install.
I don't have a zero writing utility for this hard drive so to get something on it, not Knoppix, I installed Win ME.
Start at fdisk to Windows decktop -25 minutes. All hardware found and installed. About 20 seconds to get the screen set up cause the video card was detected correctly.
The Knoppix hard drive installation detected hardware as follows:
1 Video Card - generic nv (it is a Riva Vanta TNT2)
2. Monitor - TRL model 0610 ( the only one listed)
which is listed with Hs 25 -- 96, Vs 50--75

It is TRL/RIC DH-1764UM/DH-1764U
In windows this runs 800X600 true color(32) ,large
fonts. Hs is 37.9 Vs 60.4
The KX Config Panel shows 800X600/85 24
+++how that 85 gets in there I don't know++++
3. Sound card SB AWE32 detected
4. Wave table - undetected
5. Joy Stick - undetected
6. Ethernet card. Detected
And I'm still thrashing around trying to get it tweeked.
Linux has a way to go. It may never make it because it is too"balkanized". Just my thoughts, but I am still trying. Vic

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Originally Posted by Vic

The Knoppix hard drive installation detected hardware as follows:
1 Video Card - generic nv (it is a Riva Vanta TNT2)
2. Monitor - TRL model 0610 ( the only one listed)
which is listed with Hs 25 -- 96, Vs 50--75

It is TRL/RIC DH-1764UM/DH-1764U
In windows this runs 800X600 true color(32) ,large
fonts. Hs is 37.9 Vs 60.4
The KX Config Panel shows 800X600/85 24
+++how that 85 gets in there I don't know++++

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The X server makes the calculation automaticly and uses the best mode possible for the frequencies it is given. If you know the proper settings for the monitor you can directly edit the file /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 as root and enter the proper values in the monitor section. You can also get a better driver for the card from the Nvidia site and use that instead of the generic nv.

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4. Wave table - undetected

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Can be done but work required you need to go to the http://www.tldp.org and check for the how-to and Google can be of help as well.

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5. Joy Stick - undetected

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You need the modules input, gameport, joydev, ns558 (assuming you are plugging the joystick into the sound card) and whatever the correct module is for the joystick loaded plus something like this in your /etc/modutils/aliases.

Code:

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# Added by me for Sidewinder Joystick
alias char-major-13    sidewinder

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Then you need to run update-modules as root after making changes in the file for it to work, you would of course substitute sidewinder for the correct module for your joystick.

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Just my thoughts, but I am still trying. Vic

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Good to hear.

Hmm. If every Red Hat package "has bad CD's in it," Suse "won't install," and Knoppix "just loads a picture and does nothing else," then maybe you have a hardware problem -- a bad CD-ROM drive.

Please spend 35.00 on a new one rather than waste our time trolling this forum.

Stephen thanks for the guidance!! I have fixed the CD volume problem
per your suggestions to other posts. I am now configuring the internet
connection etc. so I can get to Invidia and download a better driver.
I did find an exact matching setting for the monitor in the monitor section
so once I get the video driver I will go after that situation. Thanks again, I appreciate the help. Vic

Hi : i've been a part time user of Linux for a couple of years .
I never really had huge probs installing any flavour.
Recently I discovered Knoppix and installed it easy to my laptop.
On this pc I had RH 8 which i rarely used , an when I did it could give me a few probs , I put it down to being a bloated sytem , trying to do too much at one time , when it wasn't necesary.
So I "overwrote " RH 8 with a Knoppix install , updated/ installed a few extras with apt-get and I' m more than happy .
seems like the way to go for a home user ....Cheers javascript:emoticon(':wink:')